Elk in sheep area - enforcement?
Elk
I know that this has been discussed in the past, I can't remember what the final outcome was. I think what everyone came to the conclusion was - no one enforces the sheep location laws - the sheep go where ever the herders push them??
In CO, we were again, like always, inundated with sheep.
I spoke to a few college kids that were in the area fixing/clearing ATV and hiking trails. I asked them about the sheep and if there were boundaries.
They said that, in this area they were not allowed to the north of the 1234 trail (not the actual trail we hunt by) and yet they were way north (about 1/2 mile) of the trail.
Who can I get a hold of for possibly enforcement action?
USFS as they are the ones to regulate grazing permits
Thanks, will give them a try.
I hate sheep! Especially when they keep them in the area after they should...and ruin opening weekend of elk season.
I have tried to work with the Forest Rangers on the Emigrant Creek Ranger District, Malheur National Forest. They all say they care, and they will do what they can, but the net result is nothing changes. I believe they don't want to take on the ranchers. I don't think there is any real support for them and if they make an issue, it is a loosing proposition. The standard for the residual stubble height commonly ranges from 4 inches to 6 inches. When every available blade of grass has been eaten down to lip height, the F.S people report is as a fraction of an inch below standard and they give the rancher a warning. Of coarse the warning is meaningless, and both parties know it. My advise is to take pictures. The F.S. will say you are biased and picked the worst spots. Send a copy to your congress person. Maybe they care a little, but probably not.
I can't stand the darn criters. Their noise and smell is enough to give you a giant headache.
dudes I know in Wyoming call em range maggots, they hate them.
You will not change what goes on with grazing. Don't even waste your time trying.
It's cheaper for the rancher to pay fine than feed the sheep, nothing is going to change!
Dress them up a little and there not that bad!
Around 1992, I went to Colorado for archery elk. I was very green to say the least. In the middle of our first night - I had went with a friend - I woke to the sound of foot steps, and a lot of them. At first thought, I thought elk, but it didn't make a lot of sense so I went to investigate. As I pulled the front door of the tent open, I peered out with my trusty Maglite, to be met by the reflective eyes of hundreds of sheep. The encounter was odd to say the least. I had no idea why over a hundred sheep were within a few feet of our tent. Being young, silly and ignorant, I peeled out of the tent in my underwear, boots and my Maglite, and started chasing the herd of sheep. As all of this was going on, my buddy had gotten up and seeing me chasing the sheep around in the middle of the night in my underwear was a little too much for him to take in, at least that was what I figured as when I returned he was rolling around on the ground in laughter.
Nevertheless, I had no clue why they were there, nor there impact on elk, but even with that said, I didn't figure that elk would want to be around a bunch of loud and smelly sheep. Since then, I have encountered sheep in a couple other places and have always thought that it didn't seem right to allow private animals on public grounds. But as has been mentioned, I don't believe there is much that can be done to stop the activity.
Though it is more distantly related, I was on a mountain in Idaho and began to find trees that had pictures carved on them. One actually was a carving of a woman's body, it was extremely anatomically correct. Later, I spoke to someone in the area, and told them what I found, and they said the sheepherders carved out the art. It was very interesting.
Todt, I've seen the same thing in Colorado, and been given the same explanation. Apparently sheepherders love to carve naked women into Aspens.
I can't stand seeing sheep in the mountains... But I Dont think there is much anyone can do about it. Hunt somewhere else I guess. The sheepherders themselves have always been pretty good dudes. Just trying to make a living. I wish I spoke better Spanish. I bet they could give a guy some leads.
There was an article in Bugle magazine that wrote of sheep and how sheep eat plants that other animals don't. They talked of how the sheep kept the noxious plants out of areas. We used to have thousands of sheep in the high country around here, and the trails were always kept and well maintained. Something the herders had to do cause in was in there grazing contracts. Now, the trails are so bad no one wants to be the first to go up a trail cause of all the gleaning that has to be done. The Forest Service don't have trail cleaning crews anymore, so it falls on other people to cut and remove trees and trash...
Most herders are Peruvian or Bosque not Mexicans or Spanish.
Cattle and sheep leases are another public land user just like OHV, hunters and hikers, bottom line is multiple use.
The herders I've met have been nice. It's hard to communicate though. Can anybody translate the following for me to put on a note card?
"Have you seen any big bull elk?"
"Can you show me on this map where they are?"
"Can you show me on this map where your sheep are?"
"Where will they be later this week?"
"Please tell your dogs to stop chasing me."
Watch out for the sheepdogs!
The BLM and the USFS grant grazing permits for woolgrowers to graze sheep on public land.
The woolgrowers pay $1.35/month per 'AUM.' That allows them to graze FIVE sheep for one month at a cost of $.27/per sheep. It costs the USFS and the BLM over $10.00/month just to administer the program.
Then , of course, when domestic sheep come in contact with wild sheep, wild sheep herds experience huge die offs because domestic sheep infect them with a form of pneumonia domestic sheep are immune to but which wild sheep are not.
Correct MathewsMan. Where I hunt they are all from Peru. They carve names and dates into the aspens.
I've never seen the naked woman carvings. Maybe they put them there to make sure they remember at least a few differences between them and their sheep! lol
Knew there was some utility to woofs. If I was a woof, I'd sure rather lick lanolin off my canines from sheeps' fine curlies than wear myself out trying to run down elk. 'Course in mid-winter the sheep are down in the valleys (come to think of it, so are a lot of the elk).
The gov't could easily fix the encroachment problem by making the herders put a gps collar on every 100th sheep.
"¿Has visto algún alce grande del toro?"
"¿Me puede mostrar en este mapa dónde están?"
"¿Me puede mostrar en este mapa donde sus ovejas son?"
"¿Dónde estarán esta semana?"
"Por favor, dígale a sus perros para dejar de perseguirme."
We have seen sheep in CO every year we have hunted there. From the roads to high on the ridges! I got pictures of the sheep herder on a high ridge yodeling at sunset as he was rounding up sheep. Days later we had a pained conversation, and he indicated that he yodeled, listened for the sheep, then located them using his dogs and rounded them up. It seems that during the first week of archery elk season they round them up.
I have always seen the sheepherders on horseback, they seem to have multiple horses so they can rotate them, but run the dogs every day. Then there are the Great Pyrenees that live with the sheep. I have often wondered if the Pyrenees don't kill the sheep for something to eat! :)
I have seen the sheepherders horse tack with bailing twine and wire on the bridles to very well appointed horsemen with fringe type chaps and expensive looking saddles. I do admit that its kind of cool looking at a huge flock "pouring" itself through the landscape, parting around obstacle similar to flowing water.
One year, my son & I were headed out on an evening hunt and encountered a sheepherder on his horse. Conversation went like this:
SH - Hola Us - Hola SH - Hable espanol? Us - Nada. Habla engles? SH - Nada. Smiles all around... SH - Nada elkes? Us - (OK, just me!) - Si, nada elkes!
SH rode off. My son says, WTF - you said, "yes, no elk?" I replied yup, I said Yes, no elk. That's grammatically correct!
Fast forward, my son wrote an article in Extreme Elk Magazine about the nice 6x6 bull he arrowed on that hunt - appropriately titled "NADA ELKES"! He can thank me for that one! :)
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First off I don't like mountain maggots any more than anyone else. And they should be out of the backcountry by the date specified in their permits - which they rarely are. And I would feel better about it if the ranchers paid something closer to what they are getting, is actually worth. Maybe then they would actually be monitored for compliance with their grazing permits. But a lot of the negativism isn't warranted. Yeah, they leave a heck of a stench behind, make a racket, and leave little food for the elk where they've grazed. But they don't chase the elk away. The elk just move around them to where they haven't grazed, or haven't grazed yet. And sheep usually only clear a swath, like a wide river. The elk might be within a few hundred yards. I once killed a 5X6 bull with a ML, not 200 yards after having to wade through a bunch of those vermin. Every one of the Bosque sheep herders I've met have been friendly, and their dogs even more so, or they just ignore us. I've never met an aggressive one. The bottom line is, if you can't walk far enough to get away from them, maybe you're too feeble to be elk hunting to begin with. You also have a pretty good idea where you won't find elk, which helps you to find them.
A lot of my "negativism" is due to the lack of permittee compliance with the permits, forest plans and environmental assessments. I deal with cattle far more than sheep. Where I hunt the stubble height was generally supposed to be 6 inches, over most of the allotments, and the cattle were supposed to be gone, from the area by very early September. Well the grass is over grazed and the cattle are still around into late October. I spoke to the Forest Service about it and they say their hands are tied. But don't be negative. The permit holders are friendly.
Ziek, Go to the Bighorns and try to get past their dogs! I almost lost my hand to one while I was driving on a good gravel road. Last trip I watched 2 dogs trying to bite semis on a black top. Herders have all been nice but I would rather take my chances with a pissed off sow grizz.
In 2013 where we hunted in CO my partners relayed what they saw mid day - I don't like to come back to camp unless it's necessary -
In the park we hunt (camp a short distance away) the sheep herders brought together 3 very large groups of sheep. They then sat on their horses in a line across from each other and the dogs ran all the sheep between the horses as the herders counted them.
One of them talked to the herders - they counted over 900 sheep - the one plus was that they took ALL the sheep off the mountain that same day - the bad part was we only had one day left to hunt.
So, yes I agree "mountain maggots" for sure and nothing we can do about it except as was mentioned - go someplace where they are not - I did and shot a nice big plump, very tasty, cow - although according to my GPS it was 2.7 miles from "the park" and no stink nor a single fly to contend with.
Oh well - it is what it is!
NvaGvUp
please explain "The woolgrowers pay $1.35/month per 'AUM.' That allows them to graze FIVE sheep for one month at a cost of $.27/per sheep."
Looks like the fourth of July parade in Meeker. There are so many carvings of women in one pace I hunt we call it pin-up meadow.
Language should not be a barrier. Years ago, my did worked a contract position for a year down in Chile. He did not speak a word of Spanish. He had a crew that consisted of mostly native Chileans, a foreman who spoke Portuguese with a little bit of Spanish, another foreman who spoke Spanish with a little bit of English, and another guy who spoke Spanish but could understand the different local dialects. They would on occasion go out to have some dinner and a few beers after work. Since it was difficult for each person to understand what a particular individual was saying at a given time, those who knew a little of one language would translate so the others could understand.
Point is, they all got along and learned that when one person laughed, they all laughed. Along those lines, whenever I am hunting in an area where I am anticipating coming across sheep herders, I always bring a homemade pie or some cookies for these guys. They appreciate the gesture. They also know why I am there, and even without being able to to communicate fluently between each other, they point me in the direction of elk. After all, they have been scouting the area for the entire summer.
please explain "The woolgrowers pay $1.35/month per 'AUM.' That allows them to graze FIVE sheep for one month at a cost of $.27/per sheep."
WY, that is what the federal government charges per Animal Unit Month (AUM) for the right to graze on BLM and Forest Service land. That has been the rate for many years. An AUM is a cow calf pair, since the calf supposedly does not eat grass, but nurses off the cow. Other critters like sheep are given a proportionate amount of a cow calf pair to amount to an AUM. Usually the herder/rancher maintains fences, troughs, etc., but the feds buy them all the materials. Where I worked the Forest Service installed and maintained the cattle guards, but the rancher maintained the fences. It is interesting that private land grazing fees run about $15/ AUM. When I had property, that I allowed grazing on 15 years ago I charged $10 / AUM and the rancher knew it was a bargain, and I supplied no troughs. I did maintain the fences, and gates.
