Terry 23 north
I do wonder if it had much growth left.
By the looks of the tips (pointy), I'd guess the antlers were 99% done growing....maybe an inch to go on the 4ths and 5ths?
Midwest, two buddies of mine have bought quite a few auction tags and have put more time in the field, with guides, than most of us on Bowsite as they tried to fill those tags on special animals. Several times they've ended the season empty-handed rather than take a bull or ram that's not above their high standards for the permit.
Hope the state puts all of that money to good use!
Things bode well for those with AZ permits this year. Meat pole should get interesting.
Congrats to the shooter and thanks to him for ponying up that kind of scratch for the program.
;-P
LBshooter, I think you missed the sarcasm in Genesis's post.
It would be pretty cool to "shop around" for a bull like that all Year before sealing the deal on it!
Best of Luck, Jeff
http://www.azgfd.gov/video/LiveStreamingVideo.shtml
At least it LOOKS like they didn't gun it down out of the backyard of the golf course like a few years ago. That really screwed up my Garth Carter "poor" unit...
I am going to focus on the majestic animal rather than the hunter. These Governor tags do a lot of good. I have no ill will towards anyone that has the means to acquire one of these tags and support conservation. More power to 'em! ;-)
Congrats to the hunter and welcome to the club!
WillPower400
Congrats to the hunter. Heck of a bull.
Admit a touch of envy about the money in a moment of weakness.... have to fight that off, as it's not right.
No envy what so ever WRT the hunting methods involved. If that's how they want to go about it then it is what it is.... doubt they care much what I think of it.
They do look kinda cool---
Thanks for sharing AAA
Good luck, Robb
The one time it went to raffle, it raised a total of $1,660, and that was from the state RMEF having the permit to sell.
Most people who are against hunting don't care how a permit was gotten.
Interesting that it's "team hunting" when someone hires guides, but it's different when someone draws a sheep tag and all of his buddies come, and guys on Bowsite tell him what they've seen in that hunt through the summer.
The reason I don't buy auction tags is because I don't have the money.
The reason I don't have the money is because of choices I made in life.
One of my best friends buys auction permits from his 100-percent self-made wealth. I encourage him to buy many more. He gets great hunts, a tax write-off, and conservation for that species gets a major influx of money.
The things auction permits have done for bighorn sheep are pretty impressive.
(I'd rather shoot the elk.)
Nothing lights up the board like a huge trophy, taken on a guided hunt, by a potentially wealthy hunter. Even when few facts are known about the hunt or the hunter. The response is predictable. The only thing keeping this one from going totally berserk, is the absence of a Mossback decal on the team picture.
At least this pavlovian envy response, and persistent denial of same, is entertaining to watch as it unfolds.
Congrats again to the hunter. A link to any hunt story and/or more pics would be great to see.
The above is not....
If you are not interested in a 436" typical elk it is quite simple to not click on the thread after the first time you do so.
Many of us have a high level of interest in how the elk antler growth is this year. For those that don't, just don't look.
Only two logos on the photo so maybe I over reacted! Or maybe someone needs to swap some work out with me..:)
Nice bull btw, but if indeed it was a rifle kill, meh.
Anybody who is making these accusations ever been on one of these hunts?
Years ago there were some amazingly inaccurate accusations made against a guy I hunted with every few years. Some would have been laughable if they hadn't been so inflammatory.
I like to look at pics of big animals.
Would be ticked if I was paying for advertising and saw that pic giving free publicity.
So, when I go down to the archery range am I only allowed to talk about archery and bowhunting? Can my buddies and I, who are gathered for archery, talk about other things we like, too?
Absolutely not but to be at this virtual FREE archery range passing out flyers to the Grand Opening of your pay to play gun range while you shoot would be a stretch.
I wouldn't have responded to this thread without the logos.....
I am probably in the minority here but I find the whole concept of anyone buying a tag that is good throughout the entire year both reprehensible and appalling. My opinion has absolutely nothing to do with envy. I enjoy seeing hunters harvest giant bulls and bucks as much as anyone. And I really don’t care if he has 4 guides or 14 guides helping him. My objection to this concept is that, in my opinion, it violates the tenets of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and the sound biological principles of wildlife management. If this same magnificent bull was killed on this same date in July by any other person without a Governors Tag, we would all be vilifying him as the absolute worst sort of poacher imaginable! Can you imagine the rhetoric that would be going on here on Bowsite if this great bull had been poached? In essence, this person has purchased the privilege to legally poach this bull elk outside of what was set as the biologically sound elk season.
I am a retired state wildlife agency biologist (33 years) who dedicated his career to the sound principles of wildlife management. I completely understand the difficult financial plight of our state wildlife agencies. I also understand that the monies raised through these types of auctions have gone to fund many great projects. I simply disagree with the concept.
If it is so great, why not auction 2 tags (instead of 1) and double the amount of revenue going to the wildlife agency? Why not 10 tags? Or 100 tags? Why not forget the auction and just sell tags for say $100,000 each to as many people as can afford them? All the wealthy guys could hunt year-round and wildlife agencies would be rolling in money. We would all obviously oppose that scenario. My point is that if it violates biologically sound wildlife management principles and the tenets of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation for 100 hunters (or 1000 hunters) to do it, then it violates those same principles and tenets for one hunter to do it. If tags must be auctioned to raise money for wildlife agencies, then at least restrict the hunter to hunting within a season time frame that is both biologically sound and generally acceptable! Just my humble opinion as a retired, old school wildlife biologist...
only 2nd to "the new American way", complain that someone has more then me and want what they have for nothing!!
so what, the tag is good for 365 days. the bulls are taken almost the same week every year!!
I've driven past a half dozen dead elk last week all killed by cars including a dandy 6x6, maybe some of the money used will be used to make more elk crossings.
The fact remains that only 3 hunters are allowed to do so, so the question remains: what is biologically unsound with allowing only 3 hunters to hunt 365 days a year? Trying to shift the conversation from the actual to the hypothetical to avoid addressing the actual rings hollow.
In many countries in Europe, only the privileged few can hunt - the wealthy not the poor - the royalty not the commoner. The tenets of North American Model of Wildlife Conservation hold that our wildlife resources are publicly held entities and as such should be enjoyed by all with equal opportunity. For the most part, it is working very well. But when we start allowing a privileged few to enjoy opportunities not afforded to the masses on our public lands, then we start compromising those tenets of the NA Model upon which our wildlife management is founded. I'm not the least bit jealous or envious - there are many places (large private ranches, Indian reservations, etc.) where individuals with enough money can and do hunt animals that will never be available to the everyday working man. That's free enterprise and so be it. But when these things happen on our public lands, in my opinion, it compromises certain principles and tenets that I am uncomfortable with and don't think our wildlife agencies should be promoting or allowing. I believe it sends the wrong message.
As far as the money goes, I simply believe there are better ways to generate it. How may hunters are in your state? A half million? A million? Would not a $1 or $2 increase in the license fee (the cost of one round of ammo) generate as much or more than these tags? I would certainly pony up that and a lot more.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and I'll get off my soapbox now. It's just one man's opinion on where he would draw the line.
Not only is this biologically sound but many states are now hiring sharp shooters to take out surplus deer during ANY POINT of the year.
Matter a fact many states issue permits for farmers to take out animals during any point of the year.
So this hunt is not only a great revenue generator but it also follows what other states are doing.
Hunting is not a poor mans sport. Think about this, the average family of 4 spends $4,500 a year on vacation. That's about the average price of a guided elk hunt. Many in here take more than one guided a trip a year!
Matter a fact I have plenty of data showing that most hunters are well above the US average household income.
I respect that you disagree with the hunt. Everyone has that right. However, this hunt is no more right or wrong than the hunt I take in October.
Please note my -
"Would be ticked if I was paying for advertising and saw that pic giving free publicity."
I was agreeing with your most stringent point, Steve.
And raise general license fees a few bucks and see what happens.
We removed the 65 and older exemption in Kansas, though once that age they could get a "lifetime" hunting and fishing combo for $40. The main reason was so we could qualify for federal excise tax money that was going to other states.
It hit the fan, though cooler heads prevailed, eventually.
Imagine how many great ideas that come from people with no experience, and no friggin' clue what it would take to implement those bright ideas. (And yes, that danged sure includes me, too.)
If a solo bacpack elk hunter is envious of this bull he might want to look into how these 'hunts' are done.
Please provide credible sources that support this claim for WESTERN states.....which is where this occurred.
"Matter a fact many states issue permits for farmers to take out animals during any point of the year."
Please do not confuse depredation permits due to crop damage as biologically sound management practices. Money and politics have more to do with this practice than an overabundance of the resource.
Moreover, I simply won't subscribe to a position that both appeals to the cause of the common hunter and undermines it at the same time. The common hunter derives great benefit from auction and raffle tags (so long as the funds are used as intended) because they generate tens or hundreds of times the amount of revenue a public draw/OTC tag will, which in effect subsidizes general tag/license fees. Hunter numbers have generally been in decline for decades, and I think raising tag fees across the board in order to strictly follow a philosophical position is short-sighted.
Additionally, I personally disagree that having a few auction or rifle tags undermines the tenets of the NA wildlife model vis-a-vis the privatization of wildlife. The existence and allocation of these tags comes through a public process instituted to further the public good. IMO it is a win-win.
"Please provide credible sources that support this claim for WESTERN states.....which is where this occurred."
This is not related to deer, but the culling of elk in Colorado is relevant to the discussion. We've seen it with wild pigs (which are a game animal) here in CA as well.
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/01/sharpshooters-begin-reducing-elk-herds-rocky-mountain-national-park
One other thing, this logic can be very flawed because these dollars may not be fungible. Here in CA general license dollars and raffle dollars go into different buckets with different stipulated uses. To that end, generating an additional $100,000 via license/tag increases versus $100,000 from an auction/raffle tag may not have the same benefit to the common hunter.
This is the sort of thing where strictly adhering to philosophical positions without an understanding of the legal/regulatory framework may lead to bad outcomes.
Mark
^^^ This arguemnt is for simpletons that only can regurgitate talking points (like class envy ) as every answer to moral questions rather than desimalate the issue and pass judgment on actions. It maybe to hard for you to comprehend that many of us are able separate right and wrong actions regardless of the amount of money it take to fund the action. And our stance on actions has no bearing on our Financial capability to achieve same action but many just chose not to.
the bottom line is, the gentleman that "bought" that elk with his donation did more for the az. elk herd then all the people on this thread put together.
unlike your stance, the azgfd's financial actions have a direct bearing on the health of the elk herd in AZ. it may not be a popular decision, but maybe a necessary one.
or maybe we just disband the gf dept. and let the elk fend for themselves. I'm sure they'll do just fine.
I don't like the concept of Gov tags because I think it reeks of elitism and 'team' hunting. It's a PR nightmare IMO.
The hit that was put out on the Spider Bull several years ago soured me on the whole scene and this bull being shot in July velvet with another 'team' photo attached reinforces that feeling...although to a lesser degree.
That said, I won't lose any sleep over any of it.
Do any of you know the entire story about this bull? Was it a one day hunt or did they put in 40 between last fall and this summer?
My closest friend who has purchased auction permits often put in more than 30 days or more per season with the guide, and it's two hours each way from his house. I guess you can call it "team" hunting since several friends helped in the scouting and pushes because they appreciated what the donation would do.
The guys grandson was along, too. Silly them.
Two of five years he didn't fill his permit because they didn't find the bull they were looking for.
""Two of five years he didn't fill his permit because they didn't find the bull they were looking for""
Ok, now if this guy is buying these governors tags every year, that looks like crap IMO. Sorry, but for a guy to buy these tags every year, he in effect, buys his right to hunt all year anytime he wants. That brings a bad smell with it..........
I agree with Bullhound. If he is buying the tag every year, that is just wrong.
The privileged rich. A simple solution would be to make it a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Give others a chance to pony up $100K for bull, WTH.
Terry
