that's their biggest selling point
I saw this week 4" groups at 40 with field points and a flying high and right with my Montec G5. After adjusting my cam lean (and resyncing my cams) the discrepancy was gone and my field points tightened up slightly.
I have the same question. I have only shot broad heads since July 1 and the only difference I can tell is my BH are about 1" lower at all distances. Left to right is good so I just moved the sight down one mark and all pins are on target.
78cj5- if your broadheads are consistently hitting lowers I would move up my rest a very small amount.
Now that I shoot trad bows, I shoot them year round. You gotta know that when the time comes they are going to go where you intend them to go if you expect to shoot with confidence.
Good advice OP. God Bless
Some guys can make them group at all yardages, I'm just not one. Even my mech. heads need some tweaking on the follow up shot pins (80-120).
That said I've never had any other POI then low with fixed heads.
I like shooting the exact arrow/broadhead that I will hunting with. With VPA heads, I don't even have to remove the broadhead from the arrow. Just sharpen it and hunt.
In many if not most cases...I am guessing their setups were never tuned in the first place. I have shot mine through the chronograph and I don't remember any glaring differences. I do know that I never have to print a new sight tape.
A couple of years ago, I was calling for a buddy and called in a nice bull to under 20 yards. He was set up about 20 yards to my left. I was focusing on staying hidden and watching for where the shot would hit. Heard his bow go off, but didn't see the arrow at all. Couldn't believe he had missed at that range. The bull bolted and he started cussing.
His broadhead had hit his arrow rest and pulled the nock off the string at full draw. Luckily, it didn't blow up his bow!
Problem was, he didn't have any arrows with broadheads that didn't do the same thing! He was doubly lucky that I had some broadheads the same weight that were slightly different and didn't hit his rest. He got a bull a few days later at 15 yards.
-May just be me but I still experienced a difference in flight comparing mechanicals to my field tips. Closer? yes. Eliminating the need for tuning? No.
Here is my setup after spending 3-4 days tweeking the setup. Little things like the length of the broadhead can affect the POI (Thanks Ray!!!!)
125gr VPA custom 3 blade vented broadheads vs Field Tips at 60 yards.
One hint: When moving the rest too many people get worried about hitting the bullseye. Dont worry about the POI in relation to the 'Bullseye' worry about getting FP and BH to hit in the same area whether that is 6" left or 6" high. Then once the POI is the same, adjust the sights.
You just have to pick a range and tune (adjust) the set up to give you what you are looking for is all you can do but you can't have it the same poi all the way. The projectiles are not aerodynamically the same. One has more drag than the other and you can't re write the laws of physics, except on an archery forum I guess.
A perfectly flying fbbh will not keep up with a perfectly flying fp, period. Throw in a side wind and it gets even worse. Except for these guys.
Totally different ball game with a compound. Looking at being able to shoot like that at that distance kind of makes me want to get one.
For the average guy who doesn't shoot broadheads beyond 60 yards I believe that it's entirely possible (and should be expected) to have fixed blade broadheads and field points grouping together (within reasonable tolerances) from 0 to 60 yards. I've proven it to myself with several different bows and several different arrow/broadhead combinations.
I shoot occasionally at 70 yards but not enough to verify my results. I've had enough college physics to be aware of the forces involved but I don't have enough personal experience shooting beyond 60 yards to have an opinion one way or the other.
I think the important message to get out here is that for the average hunter (many of whom don't shoot beyond 30-40 yards) they should fully expect to have fieldpoints and broadheads grouping together at their typical hunting ranges.
I really don't think it matters to the average hunter what happens to their arrow between 60 and 120 yards and it doesn't matter to them who is correct in the debate on physics.... JMHO ;^)
2-3" change at 0-40yds is not due to a bh, unless its the size of a paper airplane.
I say give us some legitimate data illustrating these "drastic" changes due to drag and then maybe you'll get your credit for being mediocre physics student. It would be simple as pie w/ a hooter shooter 60yds and some bh's.
I guess hockeydad (above) defies the laws of physics?
Here are 3 arrows I shot at individual pieces of paper with fixed blade Wasp Boss at 40 yards.
If anything my broadheads might be grouping slightly left at 50 and 60 yards but it's close enough for me.
I definitley don't see 2-3 inches vertically between field points and broadheads at these ranges and never have.
If you want, I'll go out and shoot a BH and FT at ranges from 10-60 yards and show you that mine can and do hit the same POI along their trajectory.
Except for practice, I really don't care what happens to the arrow beyond the 50 yard mark. I know that if I do my part, my arrow (regardless if it has a field tip or broadhead on it) will hit the same mark - or at least within a few millimeters of each other due to variables of physics atmospheric conditions and Coriolis affect.
Actually, the problem is they didn't think. As you pointed out, BH's will expose any tuning/form issues that are masked by field tips. It's head-scratching that people will spend several thousands on bows, arrows, hunting trips, etc, but ignore the basics.
As far as same POI, if I shoot my FT's at a certain spot at "x" yardage, then hit the same spot with a BH, then I pretty much consider that same POI, regardless of what some internet "expert" believes.
So many things can affect the 'screw them on and hunt' crowd. Back when I was shooting gold tips I would have 2 arrows per dozen I had to dick with due to spine inconsistency just to get them to group. BH's exacerbated that problem- test them all I say.
Thats one reason why I use the BH I do-easy to touch up and hunt.
for you, or anyone to say that you would expect a drop of 2-3" with broadheads, as compared to FP's, at 30-40 yards, with a tuned bow, is flat out UNTRUE.
I just happened to make certain I had 4 arrows equipped with broadheads, flying perfect, for each of my two hunting bows.
Both bows have been tuned. Put VPA 100 grain three blade broadheads on arrow, spun them to make sure true, then shot that arrow and BH combination 4 times at 20,30,&40 yards each. Smack dead on! I continued with this process until I had 4 arrow/BH combo in each quiver. Then went back inside and put a perfect edge back on each and stropped to my delight!!! FP's hit dead on with each of these sticks by the way.
Thanks. I guess to be more specific on broad heads I am still grouping the same as my field points, just 1"- 1 1/2" lower. I have a five pin sight so it didn't matter if I was at 20 or 60 yards all pins were hitting the same amount lower, left to right was right where it should be. That is why I moved the whole sight slightly and all pins are now where they should be for broad heads. I had a new string put on as I have shot enough to wear out the other one. I shoot about 300 arrows a week in my back yard. I also just got bifocals so that might be affecting my shooting form also. I haven't even shot field points since I got my new glasses so they might have all been low as well. I do have confidence in my bow and am not going to mess with it, elk season is too close.
I shoot broad heads year round on all my practice sessions.
Good luck, Robb
A perfectly flying fbbh will not keep up with a perfectly flying fp, period. Throw in a side wind and it gets even worse. Except for these guys."
Only way to test your theory is to use a crossbow on a bench rest, right? I've never shot a crossbow but I'm guessing user error like torque is not an issue?
I was thinking a little about Jason Scott's claims and I would think that any physics whiz worth his salt could probably prove or disprove his theory with a good physics equation.
All he'd have to do is figure out how much additional parasitic drag the razor sharp broadhead blades create...
Factor in if the blades cutting through the air create a draft or slipstream for the fletching thereby reducing the drag over the fletching versus drag over the fletching on a field tip arrow...
Factor in any destabilization, stabilization or steerage effect the additional broadhead blade surface area creates...
Factor in the difference in aerodynamics of a blunt field tip versus a sharp pointed broadhead and how those differences affect drag...
Factor in any other variables I haven't considered...
And I'm sure the proof would be obvious.
Or he could tune is bow and go shoot some field points and broadheads... ;^)
People on this site, such as Hockey Dad, helped me learn how to tune my bow; how to adjust my rest bringing my Slick Tricks and field points together, basically out to sixty yards. Also was able to set up 70 and 80 yard pins with the same results-in case I needed to make a follow up shot. I don't shoot as well as Hockey Dad, but my tune is as good as the limits of my shooting ability. Good enough for me, and I'm happy to be using a fixed-blade head with a true-flying arrow. It allows me to hunt with confidence.
Mark
I shoot Shuttle T-Locks.
One thing worth mentioning, If you shoot well enough to group your arrows. and have a sense of what your group should look like w/o seeing it (IE: shoot longer distances, it helps eliminate the peek habit) then trust your instinct when you have a flier arrow.
When I was pairing my arrows for my upcoming antelope hunt, I screwed a BH on an arrow, spun it, and shot it. I had one arrow/BH that I shot 2-3 times - it felt like a good release, but it never grouped well. Instead of worrying about it I just marked it FTO and put the BH on another arrow.
All you have to do is chrono intermittently out to 70 and you will see that there is a slowing of the fbbh. It will equate to a few fps difference at the 50yd mark for most fbbh set ups. But add it all up and it is a longer flight for the fbbh by a fraction of a second. Depending on how slick the arrow is from the average bow on todays market it will be at least 2" at 40 - 50 yds. More like 3" in real world 50 yd shots. 70 yd shot almost any bow on the market will be pushing or breaking 4" difference between fp and fbbh. Most will be more than 4". Especially on a windy day. Hold your pen 2 to 4" above your table and drop it. That time it takes to hit the table is how much longer the fbbh is in flight vs fp.
I don't care what you call it when you make adjustments (tuning) so that they are impacting the same for you but that is all it is, adjustments. You're splitting the difference by moving your rest and then re-sighting to get them to come together. You have to do that to make it happen but its just a compensation while staying within the range of good arrow flight. You will have to pick your distance that you want same poi and adjust for that. But, there will be ranges before and after that chosen distance where the poi will differ. This is true whether you are able to notice or accept it. Sure, a bow has to be in proper working order with timing and square and tiller or these adjustments are almost impossible to be made. But to come on here and say that you guys are tuning your bow to get the same poi at all distances without making compensations for poa is just bs.
Try this. Keep in mind that loss of efficiency can be guaranteed by the production of heat or sound. Using engineered controls for safety, stand near the target and have a buddy shoot both fp and fbbh and note the additional sound of the fbbh. It is loosing speed and the evidence is sound.
Chrono with both heads all the way out to 70. If there is a few feet per second difference at 70 yds it does not mean the faster arrow is beating the slower to the target by only a few feet. Probably 25 feet. That is .12 seconds faster, which equates to about 4" drop time by the acceleration of gravity.
You are not getting same flight out of fbbh as you are fp with all else being equal besides the style of head. You may think you are.
70 yards is 210 feet. Unless you're shooting trad your bow is much faster. The arrows are in the air a good deal LESS than 1 second. If only X feet per second difference, they are arriving LESS than X feet apart.
A 300 fps arrow at one second is at 100 yards. 303 gets there about 3 feet sooner..... Depending on when your train left the station that is.....
Let's assume that Jason is shooting at 70 meters using a bow that shoots 100 meters per second with his fieldpoints. The flight time of his arrow is 0.7 seconds.
Now, Jason puts on a fixed blade broadhead which, as he suggests, flies a few feet slower, 99 meters per second. The flight time of this arrow is 0.707 seconds.
The difference in flight time is .007 seconds.
The acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m/s2
The formula for distance is d=(1/2)at2
We crunch the numbers and the difference translates to roughly 0.044 meters. There are roughly 39.37 inches in a meter, so the additional drop at 70 meters would theoretically be 1.73 inches.
With your parameters, 0.007 seconds longer flight time, the broadhead arrow 0.693 meters behind the fieldpoint arrow and 1.73 inches lower.
So chrono it at 70 yards and let us know what the numbers are.
I can admit freely that at 70 yards, my grouping will not be less than 1.73 inches. Standard deviation removes your argument from my consideration.
I'm beat. Another long day tomorrow. Short bloodtrails.
I love my new Hoyt Carbon Spyder 34 set with the WB (tuned), FMJ blazers, and a 125 head = 482 grains.
Paper tuned, each hunting arrow I have,
I spin every hunting arrow with bh on, and check all blazers for any tears etc......
I put together what I call the perfect dozen, and in my mind I know the equipment is ready.......
I do not shoot beyond 30 yards, that is my own limits based on my ability to make good clean kills.....
I practice my set up at 50 yards, to achieve that....
its cost me some shots at some nice animals, but I like the odds in my favor,,,,,,,,,
I have only killed 5 elk, and of that only 2 bulls, but of all of them I shot, they went very few yards, all recovered......
I have been tempted to shoot farther, but must be mental on my part.....
since this is a new bow, I will stay with this but might start shooting farther practice shots,,,,,
either way, I just read in Outdoor life how Levi Morgan sets up his hunting bow, very good info there
good luck to all
Good reminder 2xlung. You have to shoot your BHs before any hunt.
How much slower is your arrows at 70 yards compared to 5 yards ?
I've always wondered ....
JLS's Link
I'm way too lazy to take the time to figure all this shit out. Orionsbro is close enough.
There comes a point when my answer is who the freak really cares. If my 6" BH/FP groups at 60 yards overlap by about 80%, then I can certainly kill an elk at 40 yards.
If I made some alteration in my tuning process that makes Jason Scott technically right, great. Stop by my camp and I'll have a beer for him.
Shoot straight.
You will be lucky if your arrow gets 275 fps at the 70 yd mark from a bow that gets 300 fps at point blank range. With a typical ffbh you will be lucky to get 260 fps at the 70 yd mark. There will be about a 15 to 20 fps difference at 70 yds between the points out of a typical 300 fps bow.
With the faster bows there is a larger variance because drag is greater at the faster speeds until it slows and the forces of drag are in line with what the slower set ups get. There is a penalty for being really fast.
"300 fps without loosing an ounce of speed will take .7 seconds to get to 210"
News flash, speed isn't measured in ounces!!!! Proof that he doesn't know what he's talking about! LOL! Sorry couldn't resist.
Seriously Jason, it seems like you're trying really hard to prove something just to get us to say you are right. But the fact is that I just don't see any difference between field points and fixed blade broadheads out to 60 yards and there's no way you're going to convince me that I'm imagining things...
I really truly don't care if you agree but I am right and it's fun jacking with people who's pride is thicker than their skin. You guys love to gang up on someone and ostracize them if they don't patronize your ranks. I'm not in your ranks. Something about that makes it to where I can't wait to get back and check this thread. Weird huh?
R, No one is denying POI velocity is slower than launch. Jason says, but has yet to prove, the drag of a bh will change your POI 2-3" at hunting ranges.
Don't give yourself so much credit, b/c in all honesty I could care less. I'm getting paid as I type plus I'm bored. Playing "they gang up" card is a %100 chicken sh*t cop out. Most people here are stand up men and their statements are usually backed by a proof to some degree, even TBM sometimes! You have yet to support your statement.
hell, I'm sure he's done it, and he's just waiting for someone to ask him to show it!!!
I may very well have that printed on a T-shirt.
When I think of compromises accepted with a speed bow, "arrows slow down quicker" isn't on my list.
But if we go with your theoretical numbers of Vf (Final Velocity)at 70 yds being 275fps and Vo (Original Velocity) being 300fps leaving the bow, the average speed will be a little better than 291fps which equates to a fieldpoint flight time of about 0.721 seconds instead of 0.70 seconds and a broadhead flight time of about 0.730 seconds a 0.009 second difference as opposed to a 0.007 second difference.
So, running with your numbers and assumptions without questioning them, the difference is still less than the diameter of the lid from a tin of chew.
If you are consistently and repeatedly putting three arrows into a lid from a tin of chew at 70yds, I will buy you a beer.
From the pictures, I may owe Cheesehead Mike already.
It's a lot easier to trash arrows at 34yds, shooting indoors.
Don't take my humor as anything else. I'm not getting a T-shirt printed up.
I'm married, so my skin is much thicker than my pride. Some of your posts lead me to think that you're getting more worked up than anyone else.
Take your chrono out and record some actual numbers at five yards and seventy yards. Let us know what you come up with and whichever broadhead you're using. Shoot a couple of broadheads, vented and unvented. I'd be interested in seeing actual quantified speeds. I think that they will be closer than your hypothesized differences.
Go ahead and do it. Have fun. That's what this is about.
R. Hale - Regardless of drag, even in a vacuum, the arrow will not fly forever. Gravity forces the flight path of our arrows in a truncated parabolic arc. We "see" the relatively flat top portion of the parabola. If you shot an arrow with a lighted knock off of a cliff at night, you could see the far leg of the parabola as the trajectory steepened towards the ground.
The argument is rather fruitless, as it most likely will never effect 95 percent of shooters.
Anyway, one thing that I also disagree with concerning tuning is, I think a bow can be completely tuned, and some broadheads not hit along with field points. Meaning, you may tune your bow to hit perfectly with one broadhead, and it may even hit seemingly perfectly with several different designs, but I am certain that if a bow is tuned perfectly, that not every broadhead will hit perfectly with your field points. I think everyone can agree, there are some poorly designed broadheads on the market.
It is great advice from the original poster though, to make certain you shoot whatever broadheads you are going to be hunting with. Then whatever route you take to make certain your broadheads are hitting where they are aimed is of the utmost importance.
Don't get me wrong, proper tuning is a must do. Also, if preparation is done, most broadheads can be tuned to hit almost perfectly with field points.
But due to physics and dynamics, going from a slick miniscule point to a hulking, planing board of a head, I don't believe there is any way, that they can each shoot identically from one to another, but at this point, we are splitting hairs and at a point it becomes irrelevant. Just make certain you know where your broadheads are going to hit, and that they will go where aimed, and go hunting.
Good luck to everyone, and I don't mind if you don't agree, or want to call me out, because I am not a physicist, but it just makes sense to me. But my wife says I don't make a "damn bit of sense," when we argue, so who knows, she may be right.
I think a heavy arrow w/ some big ol helical feathers will cover up just about any tuning errors.
when looking through a peep, the pin covers a plate sized area at 70 yards
how do ya'll pick a spot when the pin covers that much ??
:)
I don't think you can so much tune to one head. I think there are just heads that are more forgiving than others, just fly better. All aspire to grow up and be that least effected by imperfect launch PF. Some do better at it than others.
That's why when tuning you should use a the biggest hardest to tune head (of the same weight) you own. For me it's the old school 125 snuffer. The big long one, not the ss. I have a handful that spin well. Then the easy ones like the ss and stinger, the famously "easy to tune" slick tricks and others all fly just fine.
Regardless of what is said on the internet nobody shoots 1.75" groups consistently at 70 meters.....so a tuned bow will shoot a BH and a fp to the same point of impact with respect to even a great archers shooting ability.
Also...I you believe that Jason doesn't care if you believe what he believes I am guessing you also believe that TBM doesn't believe that TBM is awesome.
What I disagree with is his assertion that the difference in speed is enough to be significant at typical hunting ranges of 60 yards or less. I believe he was talking 2-3 inches lower at 40 yards or something like that.
I doubt that many of us can shoot tight enough groups at hunting ranges to even notice the difference in point of impact between broadheads and field points and therefore the difference is insignificant.
I've been shooting quite a bit lately getting ready for my elk hunt. This photo is a Slick Trick Magnum 100 and a Wasp Boss 100 shot from 40 yards.
The 3 arrows in the target to the right are field points.
The 3 arrows in the target to the left are 3 different broadheads; a Slick Trick Magnum 100, a Wasp Boss 100 and Shuttle T 100. The bottom arrow is about an inch low but that is due to my poor shooting, not the broadhead.
Once again, my broadheads and field points are all grouping together and well within tolerances for hunting. There is not 2-3 difference in elevation.
That's all the proof I need and I don't care what Jason's physics theories say...
I hate the expense of "Robin Hoods".
You guys are way behind the game. TBM told me how to properly use arrow lube. Now my arrows pick up speed the further they go!
I've fought with some target panic the last few years and I feel like (knock on wood) I finally have it whipped and it feels great.
I shoot single spots at 20 and 30 yards but from 40 and farther I usually shoot my group at the bigger center spot. When I shot the two arrows at 40 yards and heard the arrows clank together I thought "uh oh". It was really nice to see the tight group but I also wrecked the fletching (good thing I fletch my own) and I realized I'm going to have to go to single spots at 40 too. The fletching on my field point arrows is pretty beat up anyway.
Bowfreak, it's not blabbering, they shoot high at long range due to the affect of high elevation low density atmosphere compared to when I sight in at sea level at home. My slider sight can be set just right at home and when I arrive to 11,000 ft due to dramatically less drag the fbbh hits considerably higher. Enough to muff a shot. I have to make new marks on my slider tape when I get to hunting elevation. You may not understand that but it's true as the day is long. The atmosphere is 26% less dense and 6% less viscous at 11,000 ft compared to my home at less than 100 ft. That arrow is moving faster down range where I hunt than at my home. That means it hits higher by quite a bit. I'm sure you need proof. Is it blabbering because you don't understand?
OB, the deal about the penalty for faster bows is this. Drag is exponentially greater as speed increases. For the faster bows like 325 and up, drag leaches off speed at a greater rate than it does for the slower bows like 275 fps for instance. The VARIANCE is greater for faster bows when you compare the different points. To take your mind to a radical place and to give you something else to blast away at consider this. My 350 IBO bow that I get 320 ish hunting set up speeds from shoots fbbh higher poi at 70 yds @ 11,000' vs sea level than my 275 fps bow does. So, keep up, when I sight in at home and then get to 11,000' elevation, the faster bow poi is higher than the slower bow down range. The less dense air benefits the faster fbbh arrow more than the slower arrow because the drag is affected at a different rate change. Less viscosity, it's not that hard. And drag is what makes the arc parabolic in shape. Without drag in a vacuum it would be a simple arc.
It is funny how everybody says now that a couple of inches at hunting ranges doesn't matter to them anymore. Now, +2" to -2" (4" overall) shooting to 40 or 50 yds is acceptable. If you think there is not 2" at 40 yds you are wrong.
As far as proving for you,,,, would it make you happy if I said I make all this up? And TBM really wasn't as bad as you make him out. Until you made him out. You know what I mean? He was goofy, I'll give you that, but not the same spirit some of you have. I would sit at a camp fire with him.
"It is funny how everybody says now that a couple of inches at hunting ranges doesn't matter to them anymore. Now, +2" to -2" (4" overall) shooting to 40 or 50 yds is acceptable."
Who said that? Who said anything about 4" at 40 or 50 yards? Did you make that up?
You wrote:
"If you think there is not 2" at 40 yds you are wrong."
Are you saying that the photos I posted are wrong?
You also wrote:
"As far as proving for you,,,, would it make you happy if I said I make all this up?"
Do you think I'm making my results up?
Maybe you should post some photos of your proof...
Nobody is out to get you but you're going to need a thick skin if you're going to come on here and make claims that go against most people's experiences. I think we can agree to disagree; your results are true in your world...
SO what you're saying is the elevation is effecting your POI, not your BH like you originally stated? Or are you saying that 2 inches exists at 40yds? I think 2" of anything could exist at any distance.. not sure here. Your tactics are baffling. If drag has a greater impact on a faster arrow why do you shoot such a fast bow? Per your statements it sounds counter productive. SO at sea level a slower arrow is actually faster than a fast arrow due to the preference of drag.
Just a reminder we use archery equipment here, this is not a 1000yd precision bench rest forum.
Funny how you continue to be condescending then get offended by replies. But still refuse to bring anything tangible to the table.
"I can admit freely that at 70 yards, my grouping will not be less than 1.73 inches. Standard deviation removes your argument from my consideration."
I also said;
"So, running with your numbers and assumptions without questioning them, the difference is still less than the diameter of the lid from a tin of chew.
If you are consistently and repeatedly putting three arrows into a lid from a tin of chew at 70yds, I will buy you a beer."
And at some time in the past, I mentioned the counterintuitive fact that humid air is less dense than dry air.
Nobody can argue that your pins don't shoot high at higher elevation in theory. You are the only person that thinks that your broadhead shooting more than 12" high at 70 yards is due to elevation. Elevation differences can be corrected with a small adjustment to the limb bolts.
I am amazed that a person that has "some knowledge" would even suggest that 12" height diff at 70 yards is due to elevation. Keep up the good work Jason!!!
I'm not trying to toot my own horn but I think I shoot well enough to know if there was a SIGNIFICANT difference... just sayin...
OB, it will be more than 1.73" difference in flight path between the fp and fbbh at 70 yds. Whatever you have done with your rest and sights for adjusting where you truly are same poi may be affecting your perception.
Wait... it's impossible for a field point and fixed blade broadhead to have the same POI due to the laws of physics but somehow by adjusting my rest and sight I fooled the laws of physics... Now I'm confused...?
I guess a tuned bow will do the impossible and defy the laws of physics...
So what have we all learned here...?
Tune your bow with both broadheads and field points and you'll defy the laws of physics or at least "split the difference" enough to be negligible at typical hunting ranges of 60 yards and less...
Cheesehead, how dare you fool us w/ your broadhead shooting capabilities and adjust your pins! I'm sure you weren't shooting 60yds, I bet it was 62! You got us good, for a second we all really thought bh's could possibly hang w/ the ever so aerodynamic field point. Back to the drawing board.
"Defying the laws of physics is just my hobby.. but you can call me mike."
This is the third guy I've talked to in two weeks who got a tune, who thought it was all good and by shooting broadheads found out the bow was a mess. I wonder how many shooters get the "Your bow is all good to go" from their shop, shoot field points, think all is good, screw on a broadhead and miss their animal at 40 yards. Whether you're a mechanical or fixed guy, I think we can all take pause in ensuring our bows are tuned properly. In the end, it will make all your arrows and all your broadheads fly as true as physics will allow.
[no Parson Russell terriers were harmed in the taking of this shot]
Bowfreak's Link
My sight has 5 fixed pins at 20,30,40,50 & 60 yards. I shoot 6 arrows from each yardage, 3 field points and 3 broadheads. I don't adjust my sights, I just shoot and all 6 arrows group together. I tuned my bow by making tweaks to my rest, nocking point, etc to get my field points and broadheads to group together. I really don't understand what you're talking about with all your "different poi" talk. I've proven that they are the same at all yardages between 20 & 60.
I'd gladly help you tune your bow.
Oh, and BTW... The world isn't flat...
Bowfreak, I was really leaning more on the plus + side. I was trying to make a point not submit evidence into court. In that string of conversation, 70 to 100 yds was batted around quite a bit. I simply referred to it in too general of terms for someone like you with stones in hand. My whole point was for those that live at sea level and shoot really fast bows and large fbbh should check poi when they arrive to very high elevation because it will impact higher than it did at home. Similar message as to the OP of this thread. And my original comment on this thread was to corroborate and add to the OP message. You are either slow or malicious. I will admit that I baited your kind but you're so dang easy. If you were a game animal you wouldn't make it past 1.5 yo. You and a few others are the reason spike bulls are protected where I hunt.
2xlung, don't be sorry. Excellent topic and points you make. You're a good neighbor too.
Someone can write whatever they want in internet posts - but when it contradicts what I am seeing in reality, then I question it.
My own eyes and bow proves that I DO NOT have 3-4" variation in my POI from 20-60 yards. Like Mike, I have fixed pins at 20-30-40-50-60. FP and BH group around the same POI at all those ranges.
Instead of trying to learn all this physics stuff, I think I am going to head to wyoming this weekend and see what the antelope think about physics and a BH tipped arrow trajectory!!
As to the OP - I think he summed it up perfectly!!
"Whether you're a mechanical or fixed guy, I think we can all take pause in ensuring our bows are tuned properly. In the end, it will make all your arrows and all your broadheads fly as true as physics will allow."
I may be slow but obviously I am able to comprehend simply bow tuning which you for some reason can't grasp.
Also...your "baiting" excuse is funny.
I could ship you another shovel............ but have to say that hole is getting deep son........................
I also defied physics. At least to my detection FP same as BH out to 55. I cant disagree that the difference is there in an undetectable/negligible amount. After all it is physics right.
Good thread though, I went back out and did a walk back tune just for kicks after reading.
"I really truly don't care if you agree but I am right and it's fun jacking with people who's pride is thicker than their skin. You guys love to gang up on someone and ostracize them if they don't patronize your ranks. I'm not in your ranks. Something about that makes it to where I can't wait to get back and check this thread. Weird huh?"
"They really don't know what they don't really know. Braggarts always go down with the ship though."
"Idylwildarher, you say just a couple inches at distance? What distance? 70, 80, 90 or 100? If at 90 to 100, a couple inches off but still noticeable never the less? Seriously? Wow! You need an agent! This is what I'm talking about. These guys are simply infallible."
" And when they begin to realize they are a joke they start acting like giddy little school girls. A ferocious pack of giddy little school girls."
" If I ran in to you somewhere I would truly get a kick out of watching how you would react after you realize I am the hard head with out of tune bow that wouldn't shut up. But I still think the bow tune pack are a joke."
"Midwest that video is a joke. Like a said, I can do that knowing what I need to hold. And he knows his hold and for that setup it may only be 6 inches or so. And if you think that's a group worthy of proving anything you are the joker."
"You have to admit my first post looks like a pile of corn on the ground. It's all fun. Can't we have fun while we disagree or are we too damaged when someone calls us out. No hard feelings here. Don't take yourself so seriously. If you do you would suck as a partner. Hopefully you can turn it off. Or maybe you hunt solo"
"...Don't take yourself so seriously. If you do you would suck as a partner. Hopefully you can turn it off. Or maybe you hunt solo."
"...If you do you would suck as a partner. Hopefully you can turn it off. Or maybe you hunt solo."
"...you would suck as a partner...maybe you hunt solo."
"...maybe you hunt solo."
idwarcher, Your chat handle is way too hard to even try to get right. I think I may have even intentionally goofed it.
OB, you spent a lot of time putting that together. I'm honored. Really, you must spend hrs scrutinizing what I have said. Wow! Your wife is going to get jealous.
Ohio and Bowfreak, your right, sometimes I am so excited to get the next post out that I don't even care about misspellings. Knowing how you guys are, I got to give you something on your level to keep your interest and to hold on to.
But I am right and you all know it. You are not same poi close, midrange and far no matter how many of you band together. Or pics of bulls eyes you post. Tell you what, if I can see more pics of bulls eyes and split nocks I may give in. They are such damning evidence.
LOL
But, Jason, I'm curious as to how you come to your conclusions? I seriously want to know. On what do you base your conclusion? I don't want to bash you, or gang up, or anything like that. I really want to know
I confess, I believe that I can tune my bow, to optimize arrow flight, and to get my POI between my field tips and my VPA fixed blade broadheads nearly the same. Close enough to the same that I can see no discernible difference given my ability and the distances I shoot
I'm not as good of a shot as Mike.
I also confess I'm not a good enough archer to notice a difference to 60 yards, which is the furthest I've shot a broadhead at any type of target
So I gather most folks think bow tuning is just moving rest and sights? That is hardly the definition of bow tuning. I think they have derived that idea from the practice called broad head tuning.
Bake, it doesn't matter what I provide. They think they are the same and would shoot up anything I give. Just take note in this thread and the other thread which bowfreak linked that there are many who are familiar with this and see a difference. This difference has spawned new types of heads and other products such as recent popularity of less aggressive bows. It has caused more bow shop revenue and customer heart ache and will continue the faster bows get. A lot of people want to stay in the sub 300 fps range because of it, or move on to mechanicals.
Cheesehead shoots 4" fletch and feathers and OB shoots quick spin fletch. Trying to get the most stabilization for fighting erratic arrow flight is why that's needed? Trying to counter your point drag as much as you can? Maybe a little out of tune? hehe ;) Heck, your fp may be retarded so much that you really don't see a difference. Who knows what your problems are. lmo
Curious you brought up feathers. . . . I shoot 27 inch Easton FMJ 400s, with Blazer vanes, 100 grain VPAs. And my experience is as above. I can get POI close enough that I can't notice a difference given my admittedly below-average shooting
I'm still curious how you have drawn your conclusions
Bake
Narcissistic personality disorder
Definition By Mayo Clinic Staff
Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism............
Actually, all we have to do is get everything ready for a successful launch. Once it launches, the guidance system takes over and puts it into whatever window of the Kremlin you'd like. Pretty much the same as taking the time to properly tune a bow, then watching that BH bury into the same spot your field tip hits.
You would have MUCH more credibility, or at least some, if you'd post the chronograph #'s you've documented to prove your theory. As it is, you have none. You continually try to convince everyone that your shortcomings are "normal" and that anybody that's not experienced your problems is either lying or cheating. Others have spelled it out for you, and I'll try one more time. In over 30yrs of shooting a bow, never, I repeat NEVER, have I moved a rest, nock point, or anything else to get my BH's to fly same POI as my FP's, once my FT's are tuned. Did you get that? NEVER. I simply paper tune my FT's, and I'm good to go. I've never BH tuned, walk-back tuned, or any other tune, other than paper tuned. Maybe I'm just lucky. I can live with that. Once I'm paper tuned, my BH's have shot same POI...period. BTW, I shoot Blazers, as if the fletch you use has anything to do with anything.
FWIW, moving your pins isn't bow tuning. That's actually called sighting in. Bow tuning includes ANYTHING you do to a bow, rest, or nocking point, eccentrics, etc, so your FP's hit basically same POI as your BH's, at what most people would consider reasonable hunting distances (i.e. 50yds or so). If you do, you can be reasonably sure they are flying true, which is critical when it hits the animal, since ANY deviation from perfect arrow flight will adversely effect penetration. Of course, this assumes you actually hit what you're aiming at.
My fascination is archery, learning and returning the favor if possible.
Bowfreak, I think you've nailed it.
Another incorrect assumption. Cut and paste while doing a quick scroll through the thread. Hardly any time at all.
Ohio, totally different situation. That was bh with different fletch configurations. You remind me of Rand Paul. You continue having a hard time keeping up. I am worried about you. I know how to tune a bow as well as anyone but I have never claimed that I get same poi fp and fbbh all the way out like you guys do.
Ob, ok, still honored.
LOL this reminds me of bowsite from the old days.
It's got wings!
Jason how in the hell can you conclude a guy is having clearance issues when you've never laid eyes on his bow? Not to mention the only variable changing his poi is his bh, but it has to be a contact issue according to you. If it is a simple contact issue then why did you suggest so many other possibilities? You're not just a tuning god, you are god's gift to archery. We here at bowsite are ever so thankful for you to bless us w/ your presence. I prefer tbm over this joker by far.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not even close. What I am, is one of those that prefers the confidence that a perfectly tuned bow will place a BH exactly where you want it, rather than one that simply wants to use physics as an excuse because he can't, or won't, take the time to do the same. And though you are obviously incapable of acknowledging fact, arrows are most definitely "driven". They are driven by the string, which is driven by the bow. If the bow is tuned, the arrows are driven true. If the bow isn't tuned, then the arrows aren't driven true. Obviously a concept you are incapable of grasping.
You are either a troll, or a third grader. Regardless of which you are, they sit at the back of the class and scream "Look at ME!!!!". Your act is actually getting quite boring. I am out.
Ohio, here is the OP problem from the other thread.
"So last evening, I shot out to 40 yards. Shoots great at 30 yards broadheads or not, but when I shot my broadheads comparing Blazers to helical feathers at 40 yards, the Blazers are dropping 7-8 inches low. Why?"
"Field points on blazers fly same as field points on feathers. Broadhead on blazers is dropping where feathers is perfect. From what I understand, Rocking R is wet this year and was hoping to have one less thing to be worrying about in wet feathers."
Dude, I am going to type very slowly for you. The only configuration that is not hitting same poi for him is fbbh with vanes. He has contact and the fbbh is steering it down. He's nock high into the target. The fp with vanes is not steered because there is nothing on the front. The fbbh with feathers is fine because the feathers collapse. All the possibilities I listed are related to contact... never mind dude. DUDE!!!!!! That is how the hell!!!!
Wyo, first, thank you for your service.
Now,
Second, I'm tuned.
Third, arrows are not driven. Once launched they bleed off with no more energy input. They do not even know what launched them into flight, they have no memory. A rocket continues to be propelled (driven). The result of forces imparted on arrows are different than a rocket. Side wind will have a different result. Arrows will drift with wind. Any bow hunter knows that. Rockets will bite into wind as long as they are pushed from the rear and side wind pushes the tail around(unless guided, but lets just discuss unguided for now). Any third grader with a hobby rocket kit knows that. I'm quite entertained.
Tune your bow and shoot your damn broadheads!
Elk season cannot come fast enough.
They tune the friction of the bh and fletch spinning out. When they get done tuning there is no friction left. Their bareshafts group with their bh out to 60 yds and maybe further, but they don't care about that.
I know when I learned how to broadhead tune I was getting the best flight I could see with my naked eye. It also helped me in eliminating human error in form. A field point can hide some error in form pretty easy.
Arguing with Jason is like playing chess with a pigeon... He walks around the board, knocks over some pieces, craps all over the place and claims he won.
Well, have at it...
I don't know if your question got answered with all the distracting BS.
Yes, you can broadhead tune at 20-25 yards and by moving to progressively longer yardages you can fine tune your setup.
So, you admit you are playing games here.
I win!
I'd say my bow is tuned and hitting right together
I said "more than satisfactory".
If you know anything about archery or tuning a bow you would know that longer yardages magnify flaws in tuning and form. Therefore once you have the same poi at short range you move back and fine tune as you go. You might want to try it sometime.
I have 5 fixed pins on my sight and I haven't had to adjust anything for at least a year. I have the same poi from 20 to 60 yards and I don't move or chase anything. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
The whole idea that you can make two aerodynamically different projectiles shoot the same is ridiculous. You can't tune that out. You can adjust and accept the differences but they are still there. They don't even dynamically spine the same. Adding the FBBH makes it dynamically stiffer. I bet a lot of these guys don't even notice that the fbbh tends to veer off left or right of fp at longer ranges because of that spine difference. Maybe they tune that out too???
Just get your fbbh shooting well and sight in for that arrow configuration. But don't delude yourself with the idea they should be the same. Can you (de-tune) to the point that when you release both configurations will hit relatively close together at a selected range of distances? Yes, you can usually split the differences for your expected hunting shot range. So for those of you out there that seem to notice a fallacy in the practice of making fbbh group identically with fp all the time don't sweat the ridiculous claims you hear from these guys. There may not be anything really wrong with your stuff. If you still feel the urge to live up to these guys standards you will have to loosen yours.
If anything I have said does not substantiate the OP point it out. The mere act of the OP is his expression of his belief that the two projectiles are different and should be addressed.
Have you ever tried to tune broadhead and field points for the same poi? Did you fail and now you blame your shortcoming on physics?
Despite the proof we have shown, you are the one who refuses to admit he's wrong.
I think you need professional help. Good luck...
Yep, that's about it.
Trophy, I can't? Is it a rule that the wolf pack gets the last word? Is that why you guys have run lots of good folks away from here? Cause yall always get the last word? Yall always wonder where people go. To get away from your kind. I'm just kickin your beach balls and you all are chasin them around.
Just relaying my experience and I really don't care what others say I can and can't do.
Jason,
I read most of the posts but really didn't pay much attention to people's opinions, including yours, since I saw few, if any, backed up by evidence and/or proof. That said it has been entertaining; right up there with a train wreck where no one got hurt except maybe those pounding on the key board too hard....
Time for a Friday afternoon brew!
Kevin from Wisconsin's Link
I do intend to entertain
nijimasu's Link
Jason, you are right, the rest of us are simply wrong. You defeated the wolf pack you brave, narcisstic, martyr of the world.
Glad you think baiting and poking is fun. I think it makes you look like an condescending asshole. But, I'm wrong so who cares.
I'm going to go start my gear pile for my elk hunt.
Have fun continuing to contribute absolutely nothing productive. Even if you were right, you're acting like such a jerk that your message would be hopelessly lost. But don't worry, it's not you, it's all of us.
Nice shooting Ermine.
Don't worry, lots of folks have been checking this as best they can at ranges after reading this. Everyone knows you can tune for a range but after stepping back they are seeing the separation between the heads. Then there are your group of diehards that will never admit it. So don't say you are tuning them to fly the same when they are not the same. You sound stupid.
Jason,
We're not a group of guys banding together and ganging up on you; we are several individuals who have arrived at the same conclusion based on our own individual experiences. But hey, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody is not out to get you...
Let's just say for the sake of argument that you are right and I am wrong. Then answer this question for me please:
I have 5 fixed pins at 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 yards. I shoot a combination of field points and broadheads at any of those yardages or at intermediate yardages such as 25, 35, 45, 55 by using the gap between the pins (although I'm not as precise when gapping) and all of the arrows (both field points and broadheads) group together. I don't change or adjust anything; I just use the appropriate pin or gap for the yardage and shoot and the arrows group together.
According to you I am wrong. Therefore what do you suggest I do to correct my problem and make it right...?
Please give me an answer that doesn't sound stupid.
Thank you.
Fact 1: Arrows with fixed blade broadheads and field tips have different flight characteristics. That is irrefutable.
Fact 2: The differences are too small to be seen for nearly all setups out to about 60 yards. That has also been proven by numerous archers who have FBBH and FT group together out to 60 yards.
This is just like bullet ballistics. Each manufacturer publishes ballistic coefficients. There is a difference between 180 grain Remington coreloks and 180 grain Winchester silver tips. But they will both fly the same out to 100-200 yards. At 400-500 yards, the point of impact will be different.
Why does it take 200 posts to see the facts?
I think he must own or work for a mechanical broadhead manufacturer and he's trying to convice the world that fixed blade broadheads will not group with field points.
If I set up at so they touch at 20 they will be over 2 inches apart with bh hitting lower at 60, probably 3 inches. Do this by shooting many of each and finding the averages.
But whatever, I'm just glad you guys keep coming back to this miserable hell hole.
Says the guy with 50+ posts in this thread.