Here is a quartering to/frontal shot I took last season. It was 18 yards and I hit right where I thought was the sweet spot. I got limited penetration and bull shook the arrow out. I stopped him and got another shot off but I never found this bull. Would have been my best bull, it was a rough stretch over the next few days. The video lost quality when I uploaded it but I slow motioned the hit and you can see the arrow shine when bull spins to run. It seems to me I hit hime mid level about 3 inches into the dark hair? Wrong placement? Just got unlucky on a big bone? I see how devastating this shot can be by some pics but now I'm real hesitant to take it again if it presents itself this season.
Hard to see, hit the point of the shoulder where the humerus and scapula meet is what it looks like, which would make perfect sense considering you would have to slide that arrow within a couple inches of that with that kind of angle.
This was my first frontal shot taken and most likely my last. Past up a frontal on a nice bull the first day of this hunt. Video is better quality on my computer before I uploaded to youtube but you can see the arrow flash as bull turns. The tough part for me is I hit him where I wanted to, it obviously isn't where I should have aimed. To me it looks like where guys have been putting the red dot on the quartering to/frontal thread.
DConcrete don't really understand your post but as you can see second shot was broadside but 60 yards and just trying to get another arrow in him. Thought I hammered him with the second but might have hit in front the leg? As it was almost dark, we backed out and returned at sunrise. There was good blood and an easy trail to follow for 100yards the a tough bloodtrail for another 200 yards up an over a ridge where he stopped on top and coughed blood then nothing. Did a grid search with my brother for the next couple days and never found it.
My post was asking you if you in fact got a 2nd arrow into the animal and if that was a broadside shot like Iahawkeye said was a much better shot. That's all.
Sounds like the 2nd shot hit him and was broadside and you still lost him. That's all I'm getting at.
I ran it in slo-mo, and it looks to me like your first shot was too far to the right (left on the bull), and just went into the muscle on the bull's left shoulder, and it looks like your second shot was pretty high, but it's a little hard to tell from the video, even in slow motion.
I shot a nice muley too high a few years back; he bled pretty good for about 100 yards and coughed up a couple of chunks of blood along the way. I spent two days grid searching for him, and I never did recover him. It's extremely disheartening to have gotten a chance and have one get away like that. Looked like a pretty nice bull too.
My vote is the first shot hit only shoulder muscle- too lateral to hit the chest cavity. The second shot looks like it hits the shoulder from the side so not likely far into the chest. Too bad. Very close to a killing shot twice
808 have u ever practiced this shot on targets? Its hard to make a shot that one has never taken before. This is were hunters fail ! We owe it to the game to be the best shot we can . Any shot i take on a critter i have done it many times on my target course .
From what I can tell, looks like your arrow hit too far off to the animals left side. Your arrow likely slid between the rib cage and the shoulder, or into the front shoulder. That would explain the lack of penetration. Being that close to that bull, your arrow should have buried to the fletch, if not more. The height on the arrow looked good, I think you just hit too far to the side.
The second shot also looks like it went way right. Looks like you hit neck, in front of the shoulder.
A quartering to frontal leaves very little room for error, if the OP would have missed his mark by the same margin on a broadside or quartering away, we would be looking at hero pics and congratulating the man.
My understanding is a frontal on buff is gaining favor fast with the African PHs. Not as well armored as the sides.
My main issue is they are already pretty much aimed at you when you take the shot....
Bummer Kodi. Bad luck.
No muscle shot. Didn't slide between the shoulder and ribs. Poor penetration on that shot is big bones. That joint with the scap sticks out there a good deal, the point of the wrong side of the < for the "V" broadside placement.
Game of inches. An inch or two left, higher or lower and likely would have had what looks like a nasty pack job out of there.....
Certainly agree with many, that shot has a low margin of error. But I'd bet money on that bone hit the bull lives to screw up another hunter someday..... many misses broadside are back, because folks not knowing any better are pulling off the shoulder.
Bull is gonna die. You just won't be there to hold services.....
One advantage to crowding the bones, be it a broadside "V" shot that BB teaches or that frontal. A hit is going to be amazing. A miss a good chance of survival. Not so with a "behind the shoulder" broadside.
Thanks for the input. I shoot 72# with full metal jackets and 125gr G5. Think my finished arrow was 490gr. THere are no archery clubs on my island but my brother and I have bought several 3d target and I practice every shot you can imagine from sitting, standing, kneeling. I hold draw for 2 minutes before shooting. I am very comfortable hitting 2 inch groupings inside 30yards. I passed up a frontal on first day because didn't feel comfortable with shot. This one, I was steady, level and close. I thought i put it where it needed but obviously wasn't. No doubt the arrow hit big bone. The sound of the hit, I knew i didn't penetrate. Mossyhorn I think you are right on with the second shot, hit to far forward in front the leg. Wouldn't have even taken that shot had I not put an arrow in him already.
Cityhunter- I have shot a ton of goats, deer and sheep here with a frontal with great results but with my heavy arrows, even if I hit bone I usually break through it. The pic of the 3d quartering to shot looks similar to the arrow placement I had, my shot probably 2 inches higher. My problem now is even with practicing, not hitting the spot but choosing the right spot for the shot. Like I said, the thread about quartering to, people been putting the red dot just inside the dark hair about mid level
Sorry it didn't turnout. You were basically going for the green line shot in this pic. It appears you were slightly right of the sweet spot. The margin for error is really small.
I bet your hold was spot on. The bull simply started to drop and spin at the shot noise. This makes the case for accuracy (in the spot chosen and ability to hit it) and closeness to minimize the reaction time of the animal.
I just watched a group of tv guys shoot a 3d course at MTN OPS in Salt lake City Yikes It was a sad event to watch even with there rangefinders they wounded so many targets .
I see these bad angle shots all the time on TV. Many hi-tech believe their speed negates all. My advice with elk is broadside behind the shoulder. I also advise at least 700 grain arrows for elk. Momentum is what is needed as KE is an accurate predictor only for shock kill (Bullets) not slicing/penetrating. Last year I put my cousin and his buddy on a big bull I found earlier in the season. His buddy had the fast bow with 390 grain arrow and hit the bull in shoulder at 15 yards on a broadside getting very little penetration and losing the bull after a mile tracking job. A 700 grain arrow with high MA single bevel two blade would have taken that bull on that shot. Frontal is even lower percentage. If you want to try these shots get some 700 grain FMJs with a tuffhead or razor honed grizzly on front and at least know you can get through the bone. The sweet spot on a frontal is about 2" and that bull is moving with each breath, and you WILL be shaking (if you are alive)
Yes, I disagree on Michael Schwisters "expert" opinions also.
Who is this masked elk man from Virginia?
I like heavy arrows too, but with today's modern equipment, I think 400-500 gr. is sufficient. 700, not so much, unless you are a longbow or recurve guy then maybe. Many guysare killing elk with lighter setups than I use, including my buddies in camp.
The heart of a Rocky Mountain Bull Elk is directly up the front leg line when perfectly broadside. Best shot is to penetrate the scapula on top of the leg, straight in to the heart. Penetrate that scapula and your results will NOT VARY. I have watched many elk fall in their tracks with this shot.
Shooting behind the shoulder is one of the biggest mistakes an elk hunter can make IMO.
The frontal opening is more like 8", not 2". I still have not taken this shot, but I am more and more inclined to do so with all the success I see.
I dare you to come to me head on this year, Mr. Bull!
"Best shot is to penetrate the scapula on top of the leg, straight in to the heart."
I'm having a hard time envisioning what the scapula has to do with a heart shot?? Also having difficulty understanding why one would think that purposely aiming for bone is the best shot? Just curious.
this guy was hit at 4 yards this is the exit shown. bull trotted to about 50 yrds stood there for over a minute then walked off and i heard him crash about 100 yards MY point is if he did a death run i would have had a hard time recovering him.
I'm thinking the same thing as wyobullshooter. If the RMEF is recommending the scapula shot for bowhunters, that's just another reason I refuse belong. However, it is a good rifle shot. It will usually drop them but not because it is a heart shot. It may take out the nervous system or spine. Almost forgot, it will ruin a lot of good shoulder meat when done with a large caliber rifle.
It didn't work well because you screwed it up 808. Not being mean but, your arrow hit too far to the Bull's left, your right, by a good 3 inches. Move it to where it should have been and that bull is dead in seconds with blood splattered everywhere from the ground to 5 feet off the ground. You even said that when you stated you might have aimed in the wrong place. Well, you did my friend. That arrow isn't on the "right" side of the scapula to even stand a chance to kill that animal.
The bad thing about frontal shots is the people that are trying them and failing are doing so without the proper knowledge of their preys anatomy to be successful. Then they blame the shot. That shot was all but a straight on angle. Why put the arrow on the point of the shoulder then? Plain and simple that was hunter error. No one to blame but the guy doing the shooting.
Not trying to coming across as a wise cracker but, that is the issue here. Not the shot angle. God Bless
im not going to second guess your shot at all, but I wouldn't have taken it simply because I wouldn't have been comfortable with it. In my experience with elk I think you had much more time with that elk and you would've been presented with a much better opportunity if you would have let him come in more. I would have tried simply shutting up, and seeing what happened with his next move.
mn-archer thats what I took away from the experience. Next time this same scenario happens, I will stay at full draw and hope he keeps coming or turns to leave and I can stop him broadside.
u guys callin for BS shot at least a arrow hit in leg bone from a frontal will not kill a bull but take a BS shot and hit liver or guts and good luck trying to find him , bull will die . A local guy put two arrows thru a bull with a BS shot he never found it both pass thru s.
And not to mention....when a bull comes in like that, and he doesn't see his foe or a cow, that 2nd shot opportunity will come and go in the half of a blink of an eye. In most cases, he'll have turned and left without another chance. Not always of course. I shoot 82 lbs with a 530 grain arrow at 285 fps. I generate a ton of power. Because I like the shots nobody else will take....and I've been quite successful with kills.
City you have a good point. I never thought about it that way and that might make me attempt a frontal again. I still practice the shot because when the moment of truth comes and the shot presents itself, I want to be confident to take it if I decide to. Even broadside shots, I hold tight to the leg bone. I have always gone gutless method when I have one down, but if lucky enough to butcher one up this season, I am dropping the guts and organs just to see the bone structure
I think comparing the margin of error between a broadside quick killing vital and a gut shot is apples and oranges compared to the quartering frontal's margin.
Who is to say that bull wont die of infection with that head stuck in the bone? Certainly possible and he will wish he had been gut shot if that does happen!
A bad shot will cause suffering to some degree regardless and stuff happens when hunting, we aint perfect but there are different levels of risk involved concerning shot placement scenarios and angles. You have to live with your choices and so does the animal.
I'm not saying dont take a frontal but the quartering frontal certainly makes for a much smaller margin of error.
Louis you are reaching saying the arrow hit leg bone. None of us can really say where he hit for a fact. Regardless I don't see any reason the frontal should be a preferred shot option.
That said, to each his own. DConcrete- saying you like the shots no one else will take is a bit ignorant. I wont take a texas heart shot, is that your favorite? I don't care how fast, heavy, or powerful your bow is there are very few instances on an elk where it will compensate for a poor shot.
One of our most successful members here, Jake aka medicineman shoots, or used to shoot massive poundage for pretty much everything, and he was very successful with it so I would never argue against it, but I don't see heavy poundage on an elk as a necessity and it sure as hell wont turn many poor shots into success.
Not at all city, infection could start but even besides that its a broadhead buried in the bone! That is likely to have some effect on the quality of life! I'm not against the frontal up close and straight on but as the animal quarters that margin gets smaller and smaller.
The point is you and that animal live and/or die with the choices you make and if that animal suffers a wound because I missed by a couple inches...well that just doesn't sit right with me but, that's me, and I realize some couldn't care less. Such is life.
Mike i didnt say he hit leg bone ! i said if he did it wouldn't kill a bull . Mike unless they outlaw this shot i will take it all day long if its 20 yrds or less .Mike explain how all the frontal shots i have taken have resulted in the quickest deaths . Please explain that.
Mike todays bows with less poundage pack more punch then bows of 10 yrs ago !
city, I don't think anyone's questioning your success. It's simply been pointed out that the margin for error is considerably smaller than a BS shot. Nobody said that things can't go south on a BS shot. If they do, it can normally be attributed to two things IMO. Either they made a bad shot and didn't hit where they wanted, or hit where they wanted but didn't know elk anatomy and aimed too far back. And yes, just as there are those that should never attempt a frontal, there are those that shouldn't attempt a BS shot either!
IF you know an elk's anatomy, IF it's close range, IF you can keep your composure when that bull is bugling in your face while your heart's threatening to explode out of your chest, and IF you are rock solid and confident with your shot, then by all means take it. OTOH, if someone isn't absolutely certain of all the above, they should NOT take the shot. As was already mentioned, as the angle moves from head on to either side, what's already a relatively small target becomes even smaller.
Tradmt maybe take up fishing catch and release , Ill effect lol im trying to send a 30 inch arrow thru his heart yes i want ill effects.
Be honest tradmt have u ever screwed up them BS shots ?
Tradmt the problem is most guys don't practice most guys sux with a bow that's the problem . The BS shot has a giant margin of error guys hit guts and shout i crushed him give him 12 hours and we will find him, liver hit well i will give him 8hrs Tradmt talk about a animal suffering imagine getting a arrow in your guts or liver or even one lung . Trad to break your heart animals suffer when hit with archery gear , some more then others , we all want lethal kills in seconds ,
Ttadmt the bull i shot last yr was a frontal, bull got hit turned and was on the ground in less then 5 seconds . I walked up to him and watched him expire . Tradmt even with this lethal shot i still think the bull suffered while taking his last breaths as he drowned on his blood . He was bugling one minute next hes gasping his last breaths .
Tradmt whats good about the bs shot is the critter runs away when hit USUALLY ! So u dont see it suffer out of sight out of mind but facts are facts drowning on ones blood is suffering ,So since u dont see your kill take its last breath u think all is good .
Ron if u read my post i had said practice PRACTICE AND MORE PRACTICE .One cannot take a shot with confidence if one has never executed the shot before .U owe it to the game to try and be the best shot we can be .
