- Packers, do you really feel comfortable calling someone you don't know to pack out your elk? As we all know, many times elk use the same drainages year after year. Many times it's no mistake to kill one where you did.
- Help from other hunters? We've all been there. You show up at the trail head, or truck with blood on your pants, or with the first load and hunters you run into offer to help pack out the rest of the elk. I struggle with this one, mainly due to ulterior motives. I can't help but think they really want to know where I shot the elk. I always decline, and many times go the long ways to get back if people are watching.
- Game wardens? If you did everything legit, and had your elk back at the truck, and a warden wanted you to walk back into the carcass to show him the kill site, would you? I think I would decline and give you my reasons later.
Am I too paranoid?
Hey 3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead!!!!
I don't ask for help from people out of fear of people ruining the spot.
I don't put any stickers on my truck either. That's a give away as well.
As far as game wardens. Never have had an issue. One warden I know will go and help you pack an animal out. Pretty nice guy
Very simple, as it is their business and it doesn't have to be because you did something illegal! When you buy a hunting or fishing license you give up certain rights when you're out in the field using said license whether you know it or not. One reason alone might be to take blood samples for Lab testing for various diseases like Brucellosis.
Some WCOs are pretty tight-lipped about where others kill elk. Others freely give out information about where "the Hansen brothers kill elk here every year. Jim Miller hunts over in this drainage and has killed some good bulls".
That said, if a WCO asks you to take him to the kill site for some reason and you decline, and he doesn't buy your excuse, you may very well be explaining it to a judge later. But unless there is suspicion that you did something wrong, they won't ask.
"A GW would have to have a legitimate, legal reason to ask you to take him to your kill site." Correct. Like an eyewitness reporting you.
I've only had it happen once in 45 years, and that was when someone reported me for something I didn't do. He ended up getting a ticket for doing exactly what he turned me in for. Turns out the WCOs were in the area checking camps and he reported me to throw them off so he could pack up and get out with his illegal animal while they messed with me. Mine was legal. My taking them to the kill site cleared me of suspicion.
Reminds me of the story about the guy who moves to a new town and he asks the neighbor if the people "around here" are friendly. They new neighbor replies, "Well, were they friendly where you came from?"
It's tough to escape yourself. I'd suggest taking a deep breath and just enjoy your time in the field and the people you have the honor to meet when you're out there.
I realized that day that these old crusty ranchers who own a gazillion acres, and think they own the public too, are pretty influecial.
I guess I would start out with showing him pictures of the kill. I can guarantee I will have at least 50! Based upon his actions/reaction, I will know the CO's intentions. Are they interested in a legitimate kill, or where I killed it?
If he still wants to know, we are hiking there or I will give bogus coordinates if he doesn't want to work for info!
I will say this. Last year all my go to spots got hammered. Spots I have never seen another person were crawling with other hunters-Thank you Eastman's. I started looking for new spots, sight unseen. I just looked for spots far away from other cars and I found elk. LOTS of elk in much more accessible areas.
The lesson is there are lots of honey holes out there. You haven't found the best or only one. Sometimes getting kicked out of your honey hole can be the best thing that happens to your hunting.
So far I haven't seen anyone else in the woods in that basin. Not paranoid, just careful.
I am every bit as paranoid as you two are. I also liked City's comment that "3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead" LOL
As for the warden issue, I had a warden do exactly that. I had shot a nice big buck about three miles into the Boundary Waters Canoe Area. I spent most of the day dragging that beast out when a warden met me at my truck. He says "How about we take a hike back and you show me where you shot him?" I said "how about you follow the drag marks and I'll wait for you right here?!?" He didn't like my answer, but I didn't budge. I told him there was no way in hell I was leaving a set of antlers like that in the back of my truck unattended. He backed off at that, but it would have taken a team of horses to drag me back to the kill site at that point! I had no steam left in me.
I also wait until no vehicles are around before going up or coming down especially if carrying meat. I've turned down help from other hunters willing to "carry" my elk down if I'd show them where I got it.
I'm considering removing the CBA and pope and young stickers from my truck as I believe they attract other hunters to my areas.
When he shoots a deer, I always ask him where he shot it...the answer is always the same... "Right where I was aiming"
;-)
I've been burned being nice. Until you really understand the loss of a great OTC area, you really don't understand what one has to do to try to keep it off the radar. Look at BB'S pronghorn post, ruined by your typical stooge.
In my OTC area, where I put my camp I can get up in the morning, glass the number of drainages and find the elk instantly. They are in the same areas year after year like clock work.
I/ve watched the show "wardens" that takes place in Montana and I wonder how they do some of the things they do. Road way check points? So if I have a hunting liscence I need to stop even if I'm not hunting?
If you pay attention wardens and LE usually ask for permission but they ask for it in a way that it sounds like a demand, in fact they are trained how to do it. If I was stopped I would ask if I'm being detained and if not I would walk away.
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just value my rights more than others do I guess.
Somehow game wardens have special rights. They can and do search private property all the time. I don't know why they are exempt but they are...
When you purchase a hunting or fishing license, you consent to this, by de facto understanding. And you do have to stop at check points, or you can be chased down and your vehicle contents searched without a warrant.
If you encounter the situation, go ahead and spend the money to challenge it again and let us know how that works out.
As far as the wardens go I will fully cooperate. It isn't worth the hassle. However, I got checked by a CO on a piece of public while waterfowl hunting and had a fair amount of birds. The next weekend I went back and got checked again by the same CO. Had a few birds again. Those 2 weekends I had the place to my self. The next weekend there were 4 groups there, I quit going there after that. I went back the following year there were so many people there you couldn't find a spot to park. Coincidence I think not.
I have not yet found the OTC honey hole, but when I do you guys have given me plenty of ideas how to keep it secret!
I'll take a secret to the grave if a buddy asks me not to give away a spot but I don't spend much if any effort protecting the good areas I have found.
I hunted in the bow zone in Alberta a few years and the lengths the locals would go to to throw others off their trail, or to confirm where some other guys spot was, totally turned me off.
The warden (Or DWM as they like to call themselves) won't usually mess with your camp while you are away. But, they will check any coolers or other places where you may have stashed meat.
So if I have already hauled one load of meat back to camp, I make sure it has evidence of sex naturally attached. And I leave a note in the cooler addressed to the warden that I'm coming back to camp with another load sometime after dark if he wants to stick around and check it out. Never had one stick around. LOL!!
I used to know all the wardens in my area. But they have a bunch of new ones now. It is the rookie (Do it all by the book guys) that cause most of the problems. If one ever ask me to take him to the kill site. I'll just say "Sure, here's an extra pack frame. You might as well make yourself useful"!
The 5th Amendment prevents you from incriminating yourself which means you can deny taking a CO to a kill site of yours.
The 4th Amendment prevents any gov't representative from searching or seizing anything within the confines of your property without a warrant legally issued and served. If a CO does do a search on your premises without your knowledge, they will have probable cause and can back it up in court - at least they better have.
When buying a hunting or fishing permit, you are entering a contract with the state that you will adhere to all wildlife conservation laws. Failure to do so, and based on your behavior perhaps, can give the CO probable cause. That is not, however, giving up certain rights - you still have them which is why they have to try you in court if they suspect you of anything and can gain evidence to prove you did it, which leads to you not having to take them to a kill site...
The only reason why they could charge you with a misdemeanor is "obstructing justice and interfering with an investigation" line of garbage which now gives them the probable cause. It's an endless cycle.
In ruling against Maikhio, Chief Justice Tani Cantil-Sakauye noted that hunters and anglers engage in highly-regulated sports, so they have a diminished expectation of privacy. The court reasoned that the "intrusion upon privacy engendered by a game warden's stop of an angler or hunter to demand the display of his or her catch or take is relatively minor," and furthers the state's interest in conservation.
The California Supreme Court believes that there is a distinction between warrantless searches conducted for conservation purposes and warrantless searches conducted for the ordinary enforcement of criminal laws.
The case was appealed to SCOTUS, which decided not to take on the case.
When I took him home his mom asked where did you get him? The boy said in the woods. She said no where did you shoot him? He replied in the head. She said to the boy you sound just like your dad……
That kid can hunt with me any time he wants. Seems he has a good bit of his dad in him. Lol.
If a state law permits a CO to ask to see the catch or take because they think you may have been engaged in said activity and you don't, there is their probable cause. It's an easy set up to trap you. All you have to do is say you weren't fishing or hunting and if they don't have the suspicion to back it up, then it's a 'have a nice day sir' ending.
But to get back to the original post, I learned a long time ago to be careful of who you let in on your hunt spot. Helped a friend out once on a January bowhunt in NM and took him to a sweet spot only to find him and his other friend(s) in there the following weekend.
Later I contacted the head legal guy for the DNR and he told me that wardens are not permited to search boats, pockets, inspect game, etc. without either a search warrant or probable cause. Probable cause does not include him being nosey! If he uses probable cause he darn well better have a good reason for searching such as watching you put over your limit into your live well. He also said that he teaches the wardens how to ask for permission to search in a way that sounds like a demand.
If you choose to give up your rights go right ahead but I chose not to.
If nothing looked amiss, I'd cheerfully chat them up and end it with a "have a nice day, guys, and good luck".
Mike
HA! That's why I don't wear camo and have 'Wolves Belong' stickers on my truck :)
Why so much? Because rarely do I camp in the close proximity of where I hunt.
Yes, I have been followed too
See you in the woods, buddy!!!! :)
Maybe when you become an accomplished elk hunter, I will 'take' you on a real elk hunt... :)
Mike
i made the mistake of taking a friend in there, then i heard through the grapevine that he took a "friend" in there. now it is useless, still some decent bulls but they are run out by an hour after daylight opening day. and the morons that are hunting there are the kind that camp right where the elk feed every night, and or the ones that bugle non stop for hours right from opening day on. the BIG bulls that remain there are almost silent, you will never hear a full on loud bugle except deep into the night.
so, i am looking for new spots. it is the first year in almost 20 years that i have not seen a bull that i would shoot yet. but, i may have to give up large numbers of elk for a few elk with no people.
colorado still has some good areas i assume, but the hunter numbers in the hard to reach areas are ridiculous. quality is dropping, in many areas quantity is dropping, and quality of hunt continues to decline.
It's actually in the book of John.
HDE,
There is a little more to probable cause than what you're alluding to.
Zinger is obviously spouting off with no knowledge of what they can have him do and it is just because he has purchased a hunting license. I'm not going to argue with someone who is just spouting off, but will say that I know what I'm talking about because I was in LE for over 30 years with the MDA here in MI and just the fact that the businesses that I inspected were required to have a MDA license to operate gave me the right as a part of my duties to seize anything that was illegal to possess or violated any laws I was enforced to uphold and I didn't need a warrant to seize things!
I have helped guys get their elk out, but never had anyone help me that I was not hunting with. I hunt almost exclusively national forest (elk) and don't presume to consider any one piece of it MY own. I do have some places that as far as I can tell, very few people have hunted. Couple of them are deep and ugly, and a couple are very easy hunts with easy packing!!!
Federal law always trumps state law and federal law addresses search and seizure.
I'm anxious to see little Hitler and Napoleon (ranchers) again this year.
How do they know that I have a hunting or fishing liscence when I'm driving down the road? Just by buying one does not give a warden the legal right to search my personal property? Are you saying that they can demand to search your house for no reason other than you have a hunting liscence?
I don't know what MDA is or what the laws are regarding it.
Jogamo, are you saying that a warden can just search all that stuff without your permission and no probable cause? You're saying a warden can search my food cooler? Can he enter my house and search ny refridgerator? The correct answer is no to both questions. Do people let them do this out of fear or ignorance? You bet they do.
I'll echo what another said: I don't have ANY hunting stickers on my truck. For all anyone knows when they see my truck parked, I'm just a hiker or mountain biker out enjoying nature.
It's a conundrum. We all want hunter recruitment, but we all want fewer applicants and hunters in our unit.
***How many court cases have you filed and presented for prosecution? I filed over 300 and never lost a single one in my career! On your fish, yes, if it involves your home, garage, or outbuildings where you are domiciled they have to get a warrant. If you are on the road or out in the field they DO NOT need a warrant because when you buy a license you give up certain rights that you normally have. What don't you understand about that fact and it IS fact! The reason is so they can find violations that may go unnoticed if they had to get a warrant to go to your home every time and by then any evidence of a violation could have been discarded.
How do they know that I have a hunting or fishing liscence when I'm driving down the road?
***They don't have to, as the law says if you have a license you must stop at a marked check station. In Wyoming where I'm heading on Saturday the law requires that you stop at any marked check station that is on your side of the road whether you have any game or not if you have been out hunting. If they see you go by without stopping and you have hunting clothes on, it is their right to stop you under suspicion that you are trying to hide a game law violation. Many states are set up that way.
Just by buying one does not give a warden the legal right to search my personal property?
***Incorrect, see above, unless it involves your home!
Are you saying that they can demand to search your house for no reason other than you have a hunting liscence?
***Nope, that was covered above, as they can't search your house without a warrant. That would have to be obtained after showing probable cause to a Judge that a violation has occurred. However, You give up that right when out in the field or on the road if you have purchased a hunting or fishing license. They aren't doing a bunch of stuff illegally like you feel they are because the statues in the game laws gives them the right to do what we're talking about and it's been upheld in more than a court or two when people like yourself didn't do as required!
I don't know what MDA is or what the laws are regarding it.
***MDA---Michigan Dept. Of Agriculture. I was an Investigator insuring that the various laws and regulations (150+) on the books involving sanitation, weights & measures, and motor fuel quality were adhered to by all those required to be licensed that fell under those various statutes. My job actually had more powers than a GW or State Trooper and the reason was because those places were licensed and gave up part of their rights. The same goes for things like you're talking about in most states where buying a hunting or fishing license gives them the right to do more than what you realize and are telling people, as compared to a regular LEO.
Jogamo, are you saying that a warden can just search all that stuff without your permission and no probable cause? You're saying a warden can search my food cooler? Can he enter my house and search ny refridgerator? The correct answer is no to both questions. Do people let them do this out of fear or ignorance? You bet they do.
***More baloney on your part because you don't know what you're talking about other than they need a warrant at your domicile before they can search even if they think they have probably cause. They have to show that and get a warrant in that case and I'd bet your state is that way whether you think it is or not.
Game wardens do NOT have any more search authority for homes, places of abode, or passenger compartments of vehicles than any other LEO. They must secure consent or a warrant prior to doing so, and some state do not allow verbal consent for search of these w/o warrant.
A warrant can only be secured via probable cause. Search of a cooler, livewell, check of licenses, etc can be done with reasonable suspicion the person was hunting or fishing. This is a lower threshold than probable cause, and requires articulable facts. A hunch is not good enough.
Take the initiative to talk to an attorney and file a civil suit if it's appropriate.
People are busted all the time in this state for having too many fish in their cooler, too many birds, etc. while in camp or in their vehicle when stopped at a checkpoint. If a guy has a mixed up story in a camp, there's a good likelihood of having the camp searched. No warrant needed. This is no secret.
If you are stopped at a game and fish checkpoint and something doesn't sound or look right, they can pull the seats out of your vehicle, search the engine compartment, whatever.
I've been on both sides of this. Once, years ago, a guy with me had a mixed up story about how many fish we had (he didn't know the limit, but I did) and they basically took my truck apart. When they found nothing, they put everything back and apologized. I've also written tickets to people who had too many fish in their cooler, after someone credible reported them to me.
They do need a warrant to come into your house. At least in Colorado. But if they suspect you of having too many fish at home (the possession limit in a freezer in CO is 8 trout) they get a warrant and go in. this is rare, but I personally know of instances where it has happen.
State laws must be written to coincide in the tradition of federal law and when they don't, they are challenged. Many state laws may exist because they were written prior to the Civil War. Up until then, federal powers didn't necessarily extend to the state level. After the war, they did.
I agree, wwaayy off topic and I am guilty as charged.
I bet in most all of the cases of people being busted for to many fish in their cooler they were asked if they could look and instead of standing up for their rights they said yes.
Just buying a hunting or fishing liscence does not mean I give up my rights to privacy. If I'm driving down the road with my family for a sunday drive and there's a check point you say I have to stop - BS!
Minnesota used to think that they could just walk into ice shacks un-announced to search and check licsenses until someone actually took them to court, no they need permission to enter a shack unless of course they have probable cause that something illegal is happening.
They would have to have probable cause to do so. They are allowed to seize the vehicle while they secure the warrant.
As HDE pointed out, laws have to be constitutional in their scope. If they are challenged as unconstitutional and deemed as such, they are overturned.
That said, in the Circuit Court of Appeals ruling that Lou referenced above, hunting and fishing is held to be a highly regulated activity. Because of this, game wardens are allowed more latitude to do compliance checks that other LEOs are not necessarily allowed to do.
However, as I stated above, state constitutions vary. Some states allow DUI checkpoints, because their Supreme Courts have held that the benefit to public safety is worth the minor intrusion into a person's privacy.
The same thing holds for hunting and fishing. Many states have held that because the fish and wildlife is a state resource, and the state is charged with holding that in public trust for the citizens of the state, it is permissible for a game warden to check a person in the act of hunting and fishing even though no violation may be readily apparent.
State laws vary. Where I live, if I am checked in the field I am required by law to declare any fish or wildlife in my possession. Failure to do so is a gross misdemeanor violation. Not all states have this law. However, most do have laws that you must present your license and ID upon demand by a game warden.
Some states have laws that expressly allow game wardens to search specific items without warrant. An example of this is as I gave earlier, a cooler or a livewell. Note that this NEVER extends to a house or place of domicile.
Also, case law is ALWAYS evolving. It used to be that one of the exceptions to needing a warrant to search was a search incident to arrest. If a person was arrested, the LEO could search their vehicle incident to the arrest. However, under Arizona v. Gant the court ruled that once the person was under arrest and in custody, the person was no longer a threat to the officer and thus the vehicle could not be searched unless it was for items specific to the crime.
Also, vehicles traditionally did not always require warrants to search because of the transient nature of vehicles and the fact that evidence could be moved and/or lost. However, some state Supreme Courts have ruled that this is not acceptable, and if the officer has probable cause that a violation occurred, they should secure the vehicle (see city's question) until the warrant was granted.
There is often a great deal of confusion between reasonable suspicion, probable cause, and evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Reasonable suspicion is the threshold officers need to contact and detain a person while investigating. So, in this example, a game warden needs reasonable suspicion that you are engaged in hunting or fishing in order to contact you and request your license and/or catch.
Probable cause is needed to be granted a warrant or make an arrest. Probable cause is far different than the beyond a reasonable doubt threshold required for a court conviction.
This is a brief summation, and not all encompassing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
***You, sir, are talking out your butt because most states are set up very similar and if you do what you're saying and don't comply when a GW stops you I'll bet you'll be in deep dodo. It has nothing to do with your 4th Amendment Rights and if you check into it thoroughly you'll find out you're wrong in that it doesn't take what you're saying for a GW in most states to do what we're talking about.
I bet in most all of the cases of people being busted for to many fish in their cooler they were asked if they could look and instead of standing up for their rights they said yes.
Just buying a hunting or fishing liscence does not mean I give up my rights to privacy. If I'm driving down the road with my family for a sunday drive and there's a check point you say I have to stop - BS!
***BS! Nobody said you have to stop in that case! It's only if you have been out hunting and run into a check station. Then you had better stop and be prepared to show your license(s), answer whatever questions you're asked, etc.
Minnesota used to think that they could just walk into ice shacks un-announced to search and check licenses until someone actually took them to court, no they need permission to enter a shack unless of course they have probable cause that something illegal is happening.
***I'll also call BS on that because an ice shack isn't a domicile and they don't need a warrant to see if the person(s) in that shack have the proper licenses and are abiding by all the fishing laws that apply. You need to brush up on your laws and if you can prove what you're saying is true in MN or WI please provide that proof in black and white.
If a person is living in a tent for a period of time, that is considered their place of domicile. Search it without warrant and you could very well be looking at fruits of the poisonous tree and a civil suit.
Some of the states that I have hunted have laws that specifically state that you MUST stop at a check station if you are going to or coming from hunting and/or fishing. Failure to do so is a violation.
Again, the officer must be able to articulate their reasonable suspicion that you were engaged in the act of hunting and/or fishing.
BlueDog's Link
As for searching my live well, etc. you can look it up as I've already gone through all the effort of contacting the DNR and their LE people. They told me exactly what I needed to do when a warden asked me, that is show them my liscence, anything besides that they have to ask and get permission. Again if they have probable cause that changes things. I've been stopped and the warden asked to see the fish in my life well, I told them no and after calling his supervisor he came back and said that I do not have to show him my live well or let him search anything else in my boat. I don't know how it is in other states but in Wisconsin that's the law.
I hunt turkeys in an area relatively close to home. It's a small area with only a few birds, but no other pressure. I'm a fanatic in being stealthy slipping in and out and give a whole new meaning to the phrase "leave no trace".
I've taken my 10/11 year old daughter there and taught her how to avoid people trails, carefully hop from stone to grass to leave no tracks, etc.
She knows that when we come or go from the truck we don't let anyone see us wearing camo; even if that means laying down or ducking behind the truck as they drive past.
She already is as paranoid as I am and knows that if anyone ever asks where she got her turkey the standard answer is "I'm not sure, my dad took me to the National Forest somewhere" LOL
I have one spot where the only parking place for a mile in each direction is on a small pull-off on a gravel county road. My spot is on one side, so I park on the other side and leave prominent boot tracks heading off in the opposite direction. Then I circle back and cross the road and head into the timber. I make sure no vehicles are in earshot when I go in or come out. So far I haven't seen anyone else in the woods in that basin. Not paranoid, just careful."
The funny thing is that if a couple of guys like my buddies and I were intending to hunt that area and saw your tracks heading one way, we'd shrug and head in the opposite direction...and potentially end up in your lap.
I have no interest in crowding anyone. I have no interest in being crowded.
I'm glad to selectively share information that's mine, but if someone is sharing something with you, shut up. Keep your word. Don't screw up someone that's done you a solid. This stuff isn't complicated. It's not rocket surgery.
My friend got totally upset with me one day when I pointed out that he was hell set on not letting anyone know where we were fishing one day just after he had asked some local fishermen what they were using and they gave him 4 flys to use that were the only things that were working that day. Even after their generosity to him, he could not see any way of being generous to anybody else.
That being said I keep a tight lip on all spots and even general vicinity.
Game warden I would not want to because it is a huge waste of my time - if my elk is in truck my focus is 100% get home to my kids. That said I would kiss his butt because he can make my life miserable!
IMO you are thinking right!!!!
