I am pretty much a gun novice when it comes to all of the details that gun lovers know....I just like to shoot them and don't care about all the rest. For this reason...I like to hear the opinions of others that are much more versed than I.
I know that many will say that most people won't be able to even get a handgun drawn in an attack. But.....lets assume you do. I know many believe they would rather be able to pump 15 10 mm rounds into an animal versus 6 .44 magnums. What do you think?
Love my SW 2 3/4" .460 ES Snubnose with brass "punch bullets".Can plink with .45 or shoot .454/.460 for bear protection.
I also am intrigued with the 4" .454 Ruger if you can find one.Get the Hogue grips they really turn these big bores into kitty cats
.45 + P would also be good runnning a 300 gr @ 900 fps+
Just don't overlook the importance of the bullet.The punch bullets are machined from brass and win every penetration test hands down.They are only legal because the have a small hole in the meplat that classifies it as a "hollow point".
You can shoot these things through cinder block and reload them!
Ballistically I want to be at a mininum of 300 gr @ 900 fps+ which you can get in alot of more subdued loads than the .460/.454
My snubbie runs 325gr @1250.Every 1" less of barrell withh decrease your FPS about 50-75 fps.Greater thn 4" barrels get a little less nimble for close work..:)
Garrett Cartridge has some souped up .44 loads but my reading has framed a minimal formula of .45 X 300gr X 900fps+ punch bullet as my minimum.
Spray is probably the easiest method to carry as well as effective... if you don't have a nice windy day. I am honestly considering a 10mm for my next gun, although I don't know when that will be. You will probably get a lot more expert responses than mine, because I surely am not one, but I just consider packing one of those large big-bore pistols to be a chore all in itself when hiking the woods. A 9mm just doesn't seem to be much of a load to me, although I'm not sure how charged-up they can be hand loaded.
In the end, chances are slim, like Pat mentioned, but if there is a chance I might see Candice Swanepoel skinny dipping, then THERE IS A CHANCE. Sorry Pat, Gisele can be on the list but she isn't on top.
Holds a lot of ammo. Light and glocks are reliable
Bringing a handgun for a grizz attack is like bringing a toothbrush to a gunfight. If you are bringing the gun to give yourself a quick clean end that is a different story.
The question is was it necessary but that's an entirely different debate.
So yes a handgun does work but I night be more inclined to use a shotgun.
All I know is if you have to be prepared for lots of paperwork and hearings. You may rather be eaten by that bear.
Hopefully this never has to happen.
You can kill a bear with a .22 if you hit it in the right spot, but the odds aren't in your favor.
"All I know is if you have to be prepared for lots of paperwork and hearings. You may rather be eaten by that bear."
Grizzlys bluff charge. It's what they do. I had a wildlife biology professor that said you had better have claw marks or tooth marks on you if you shoot a grizzly.
That said, I do carry my 44 while bowhunting Kodiak. I've never had to use it in over 30 years of hunts there. I use a Double D holster and really don't even notice the hand gun.
Food for thought.
Truth is take whatever you can get out quickly and hail mary at a charging bear.
Care to give details?
Accuracy trumps energy in a handgun almost every time. The only type of shot certain to stop a bear immediately is a brain or spinal (CNS) hit. Anything else may kill in time, or might serve to deter attack immediately. A bear hit straight on in the chest at 20 yards or less by a .460 or .500 isn't going to die before tattooing your face and leaving you in need of a trauma team. I chuckle at the thoughts of some who believe they can get off 6+ rounds accurately on an incoming bear. 2...maybe 3...accurate shots is realistic at attack ranges. At 20 yards or less almost any typical bear-defense handgun has enough punch to penetrate a skull or spine. Get a cow skull and try it. You simply don't need maximum-power loads to do the job. You do need a good hardcast projectile with a wider meplat and enough energy to break bones. I happen to like the .44 mag for choice of ammo, light carry (329PD), dependability, and manageable recoil for myself.
A month ago I had a big bear right outside my tent at 10 am. Had that bear pushed the issue, my can of spray would have meant nothing inside the tent...at least until the bear and I were embracing. I'm in grizzly country every August/September for up to 3 weeks. The spray can is optional...the handgun is mandatory.
The shotgun or rifle is much more effective, but less likely to be carried everywhere. The handgun, less effective but goes with you even on nature trips to the TP minefield. I like Bob's solution.
Coolest rig I've seen is Steve H and his .458 SOCOM AR. Been doing a bunch of research on it since seeing his here. That is one bad azz short range weapon.
Since I have ran into Gisele skinny dipping (didn't even know that she and Kate Upton were friends no less camping buddies), I figure the odds are really bad that I'll also get attacked by a griz.
When I lived in AK the joke was that the only good a handgun will do you in a grizzly attack is to shoot your buddy in the knee so you can out run him.
I worked for an AK Wildlife Refuge for a bit in the 90's and they required (at that time anyway) any party working in the back country must carry a 12 gauge with 1oz slugs. We did and had it drawn on moose on more than one occasion (never fired though), and had a negative bear encounter.
My boss at the refuge had a story where his partner was crossing a river when he saw a bear start after his partner and just before the bear reached her he unloaded on it. Later they found out the bear was injured (jaw injury) prior to the attack. The bear backed off, went away, and they found it dead in their camp when they returned. Several shots landed and a couple had glanced off the bear's skull.
We can all find a "bear story" to back up whatever we choose to do/carry in bear country, but this one still gives me the hebegeebees and makes me lean shotgun.
A 454, 460, or 500 is even better medicine. But, then you start to get into the recoil so bad, for some people it could be detrimental. What ever you use, you should choose it with the notion that there is a decent chance you will be using it while the bear is on you. It should be compact enough to one hand maneuver and shoot. And, it should hold the power to kill. A 10 mm is far short of any revolver mentioned here but, is better than nothing. A 357 mag, 9mm ,or 45ACP will serve the mindset of the carrier better than it will kill a bear. But, all are better options than nothing.
Just become efficient with it and PRACTICE with it. When watching TV, set round with it and fondle it EVERY night. Become accustomed to it like a glove. Shoot it A LOT. One handed too. Your life may VERY well depend on it. While you may miss and not stop the bear, if you can shoot it when it is chewing on you, that is better than a pile of remains. And, when those big hammers start barking, you will get their attention. Especially when they start biting. God Bless
I'm putting together a database on another website of this very issue. Opinions/actual attacks are all over the place on this topic.
The two constants; 1. These attacks happen very fast...many in 2-3 seconds- as they are surprise close range encounters.
2. to say the odds are low of an attack is totally true...for my wife! Myself on the other hand cruising around regularly in bear country is another matter. You won't get struck by lightning when you stay home...but hunting mtn tops is a whole different set of odds!Be prepared.
The wildlife folks don't want these bears shot and go out of their way to push the spray. I was in ak where an outward bound camp sprayed a problem bear...and later the bear came back and didn't hesitate mauling a kid.
Ammo; Its a given to use hardcast bullets as you want that bullet to keep on going until it hits CNS. One of the better commentaries on hardcast is on the buffalo bore site in the FAQ.
Be advised, these hardcast don't always shoot well in some weapons- Glocks with the hexagonal barrel and the old Marlin lever guns are examples. The 10mm Glock guys are rebarreling and putting in a heavier spring.
Not all .44s are the same. The fine S&W 329PD is only 25 ounces- a dream to carry...but recoil is significant. They have a hammer lock that can vibrate closed on you at exactly the wrong time...and page 12 of the owners man notes that the last couple bullets in the cylinder can slide forward inhibiting the cylinder spinning..not good.
My buddy solved these issues with handloads- extra crimp, and removing the hammer lock- all new gen S&W revolver have this lock [left side of frame at hammer]
.44, 10mm, 460 rowland or any of the big 454 Casuls and up.......No matter what you choose, make sure you can get a couple good accurate shots off very quickly...in other words- Practice! My thread with much more info and links to many bear attacks is over on the AT western forum.
1) Bears often bluff charge, so legitimate self defense shooting usually starts around 10 yards or so. Do folks really think they are going to get 3-5 shots in .75 seconds if a bear is undeterred by the first shot?
2) Once upon a time, we got stuck in the airport in Anchorage with the head of the Kodiak guide's association, and he educated us on the differences between brown and black bears. Browns apparently have a much slower hear rate than blacks and tend to die much more slowly as a result. It occurred to me the focus should be on stopping a charge rather than killing the bear. You can make a lethal shot on a brownie and it can still have plenty of time to kill you - and probably your hunting partner - before it dies. With some of the light calibers being mentioned above, you would basically need to penetrate the brain to reliably stop a bear. Are folks being honest with themselves that they are good enough shots under duress that they can consistently hit a bouncing grapefruit coming at you at 30 mph with a handgun?
My perspective is that if I have to shoot a bear, I want a bullet that stands a chance to break the pelvis or rear leg if I miss the head. I carry a .475 linebaugh (420 grs. at 1,350 fps, just short of a 1 oz. shotgun slug ballistically) while on Kodiak. A number of years ago we had a Kodiak brownie lope ~3/4 mile to us and briefly circle us at 70 yards - and I felt under-gunned.
Interesting reading Bruce.
Good luck, Robb
Canada means no handguns period.
It's a Galco unit. I had a custom butt cuff and sling made after that picture, so the Galco never saw action. I need to get it listed and sold, lol.
You can do that for sure, but it's really not necessary. I put my handgun in its original plastic case and lock it. Then it goes in my large soft duffel. At the airport the gun is declared and all that's needed is a signed form noting the gun is unloaded. It flies with no issues (so does ammo) and I have it in my possession as soon as I arrive in AK.
It's a .45-70 customized by Wild West Guns and will also shoot .457 Wild West rounds. Superb quickness, power and accuracy.
LaGriz
and can have issues with bullets sliding forward in the case
I have never had to deal with this, but have thought about it. . .
If I was dead set on carrying a firearm for bear defense, and didn't want to carry a shotgun or short rifle like above. . .
I would get a .45 auto, use +P ammo in some configuration. And I'd use a gun with the highest magazine capacity I could find
I've shot the big bore wheelguns, and know for a fact that I have about 1 chance in 1000 (probably less) of stopping a bear charge with any type of pistol. It just isn't going to happen for me.
So my theory is to get an adequate size, with plenty of rounds in the mag, to hopefully be able to kill it while it's on me. Use spray first, and the gun only if it's actually mauling me.
I applaud the guys who think they can stop one with a pistol. But my pistol-accuracy reality is that if it comes to stopping a charge with a pistol of any type. . . I'm gonna get mauled.
I'd be a lot more confident with a short shotgun or rifle. And like Matt said above, if I miss the head, hopefully with a shotgun or rifle I can still anchor the bear, or turn the charge with the higher powered rifle or shotgun
I believe I'd carry spray to hopefully avert any charge, and have an auto on my belt for last ditch while actually being mauled if the spray fails
Bake
I am really surprised though with the number of guys that feel a revolver is a better choice, that choose a Smith and Wesson over a Ruger Super RedHawk. There is a reason that loading manuals differentiate Ruger only loads. They are much heavier built and will take pressures that leaves the Smith and Wesson models in pieces.
FWIW, the hard cast bullets sized .001 over the bore will drive a tack in any revolver with decent rifling. A lot of these manufactured bullets contain gas checks too. So, leading isn't going to be a problem with those that do, even if they are undersized. If properly sized, they will be just as accurate and consistent as any jacketed bullet. Except they will fly faster and, hit harder than any jacketed bullet. And those Garret loads are good'er ones. God Bless
Anyway, to make a long story short, each of those three have been charged numerous times. All of them carry shotguns. The hunting guide carries a short double barrel with slugs. Both the other guys carry Beneli autos with slugs in the magazine and either bird seed or #8 shot in the chamber to deter a bear that they think is not bluffing. Apparently bird seed in the face at 10 yards combined with the noise of the shot usually turns them without permanent damage.
A 10mm tops out aroud 775 ft/lbs per round. 454 arond 1925 ft/lbs. So theoretically you can get 11625 ft/lbs from 15rds of 10mm. Or 11550 ft/lbs from 6 454 rds, then step up to 14130 ft/lbs from 5 .460 rounds and finally 15160 ft/lbs from 5 .500 rounds.
Id go with worst case. 1 round, surprised and rushed. Id go with a 454 in a 4" barrel ruger, or your choice of frame with large hard cast bone breakers to penetrate deep.
My .02 worth.
Up here(Alaska), the 10mm Glock seems to be gaining a strong foothold. I have two, one for concealed while in Anchorage and the other either on my hip or chest holster.
I just came off a 12 day float trip and my Glock was on me the whole time on a chest holster. The only issue was while wearing a life jacket obviously. But I didn't think the bears would swim in to get me. Plus we were swearing enough due to low water and pulling the raft to scare any away.
I am not a Glock fan by any means. Its ugly and feels like a brick, but its reliable and you can submerge it(been there), beat it, drop it and it still works and is relatively affordable.
a auto handgun in 9mm, 10mm, 40, or any other anemic round is a joke. i know 10mm is not anemic, but it is not a thumper either. my guess is that on a good day most could not hit a bear's head at 20 yards standing still let alone moving toward you while you are pissing your pants.
the last time i went to alaska i carried a 475 wildey auto. sold that gun, but if i went again i would carry my 454 with hot loads and solids. maybe, i would take my grizzly with 45 win mag hot loads.
i would rather have a gun than not. but, i am not carrying an arsenal for the one chance. i will take something that i am comfortable with that has good power with proper bullets.
WRT OP, revolver vs auto, I know I shoot an auto much better. Unless I'm single actioning a revolver I'm a poor shot with one. Any kind of rapid fire the double action throws me off. Maybe just not enough practice, but I'm a good deal better with an auto. Not "good" by any measure, but "better". Problem is autos are much more limited to how much "pop" they have.
I like studying and researching "tools" or as coach call them "toys". This thread topic in particular is a subject I really enjoy. Have a buddy with a glock 21 that takes a 460 Rowland conversion, roughly .44 mag territory in an auto. Compensated, etc. I'm fairly familiar with glocks, have one under my desk at work right now. We're working out a deal for the 21 at some point, he's gotten into 1911s and never shoots it anymore. Just a matter or time before he needs a bit of money to feed his 1911 habit...
WRT loading for it, all I need is cases and dies.....
You could also shoot shorter brass aka .45 +P in a .454 or .454 in a .460 if you're super paranoid about it.
That said I have shot 500 rounds of .454 400 grain by a reputable company and have seen 2 move and both were the fifth shot and none resulted in a failure to fire.
Pat, please tell us what unit she's hunting this year if that's the case, I'd like to hunt there too...
I did quite a bit of research a few years ago and ended up with a Ruger Alaskan .44. Equally important is the ammunition you're putting in the revolver. The Buffalo Bore +P+ 340 grain hardened lead bring the .44 round close to 454 casual ballistics. The short barrel Alaskan is surprisingly pleasant to shoot and very accurate, even with the +P+ Buffalo bore loads.
I really hope I never have to fire that gun at a charging bear but it does offer piece of mind. I personally have no interest in carrying bear spray but everyone has to make their own decision. I'm competent with a firearm and would rather take my last stand with a gun.
***It's worth mentioning the Buffalo Bore +P+ loads are too hot to be shot in the Smith and Wesson .44 frames and MANY others. The warning is on the side of the box with a list of approved weapons.
City must still be in the field.....
I agree with Weekender.... the last sound a person ever hears should not be "pssssssssttttt....."
Looks like a great carry rig.
My memory is hazy, but if it's what I think I remember.... I think he poked that bear with a sharp stick first... and a gun ended the charge?
I wonder if spray would have worked? =D
I think the biggest potential benefit of multi-round handguns is their deterrent effect before the animal is ready to rearrange your anatomy. A warning shot or two might turn the charge before things get stinky. If push comes to shove, I'd like to have 4 rounds available for the final showdown.
I did not have the benefit of solid bullets...didn't know about those 25 years ago. The hollow points in .357 were maybe 50% effective on hog head shots. Those big hogs could take a hollow point in the eye socket....and it sometimes only stunned them...only making them madder. The hollow points were 100% effective when shooting down on the hog between the shoulder blades- spinal hit.
Having experienced that, I would agree with Kevins last post.
The only time I've seen a solids in action was on a water buff charge that our guide shot at 20',15',and 10' 3x between the eyes with an open sighted .375 H&H. The first solid went through that bulls head and 5' of that bulls hump...and then through an 8" tree behind him stopping him in his tracks. We never did find the bullet.
I know you can't compare a .375H&H's ballistics to this handgun topic...but even if some of these only have 1/4 the poop- they are going to be pretty potent. The penetration of these hardcast bullets eeks every ounce of penetration from these pistols.
FWIW: My buddy in Alaska calls a 44 mag a "5 shooter".......5 for the Grizzly and 1 for yourself when he doesn't stop. He has a 50 cal S&W.
TD's Link
After talking to a couple buddies that guide...I don't think we will ever get the whole story. The consensus is there are many of these attacks repelled by a firearm that we will never hear about.
I don't know how Montana is but in Ak its a big ordeal in a reported defense situation with these bears.
