We find the toughest bugles to decipher are young bull bugles, whines or squeals & these can come from the younger juveniles. The bigger mature bulls are readily recognizable as they stand out in their deep mature sounds.
One thing that has helped us is quickness of a real bulls response! We call it the "5 second rule" -- Once we've bugled for location in an effort to locate elk & receive a response we concentrate on how quick they responded if we have any question to its authenticity. We find bulls that respond inside the 5 seconds are generally the real deal! There are not many hunters walking the woods that have a bugle ready to respond to a bugle within 5 seconds! It generally takes us hunters a bit more time to react to this!
It's helped us in our hunts & hopefully this small tid bit can help you with your next bugling bull! (grin)
ElkNut1
This year the low growling start of his bugle alerted me that the 5X6 was in the neighborhood again. But the HERD BULL's smooth transition through the bugle let me know It's HIM!
I pay very close attention through the scouting season and early season to identify a bull with his bugle.
This year my buddy killed a raggy 6x6 that cow called coming in.
I agree many older/bigger bulls have a deeper, raspier bulge and, by the same token, many younger/smaller bulls are not as guttural, but the opposite happens often enough that I never make a judgment on a bull's size based solely on sound.
As far as the "5 second rule", I do just the opposite. If I get a response to a locator call, or I hear a bugle (from either a bull or hunter) that I can't readily identify as real, I'll wait several seconds and give a bugle of my own. If it's an elk, he may or may not answer back. If it's a hunter, 99 times out of 100, that hunter will bugle back almost immediately, followed by more bugles and mews.
Another thing I use to determine whether it's an elk or a hunter are the grunts/chuckles. At a distance, it can sometimes be hard to tell an elk bugle from a hunter bugle. Also as Rock stated, I've heard some really good bugles made by hunters, and some really pathetic bugles made by the real thing. OTOH, the difference in grunts/chuckles is a dead giveaway.
"If I get a response to a locator call, or I hear a bugle (from either a bull or hunter) that I can't readily identify as real, I'll wait several seconds and give a bugle of my own. If it's an elk, he may or may not answer back. If it's a hunter, 99 times out of 100, that hunter will bugle back almost immediately, followed by more bugles and mews."
I think that 5 second indicator is a logical idea. We had many Bulls though this year that didn't respond till way after the fact and they were confirmed elk.
If i get a bull to talk in 5 sec he wants to fight !!! I have heard bulls that sounded so fake one would bet there last dollar it was a hunter .
Ive called in hunters with my bugles but ive never been called in !
Yes, I believe most bowhunters that use mouth reeds have their reeds in their mouths most of the time when in the middle of their hunts. Thing is most are not in a big hurry to try & grab their bugles quickly to respond back especially on the initial response from a bull, more are concerned with where he is & trying to get a direction & possible distance before considering a response. By that time well over 5 seconds has passed.
True bulls can make all sorts of sounds but when trying to determine whether it's a bull or hunter the volume is nearly as important it's how quick was the response?
We too have had bugles fire back after more than 10 bugles from us trying to ignite a bull we feel is within earshot but it's a rare occurrence.
Don, they're always interested if they've called back! (grin) Big difference when working with fired up bulls instead of a bull giving a lazy bugle from his bed. Different methods for different bulls! No one thing works on most bulls.
Wyo, I agree 100% we too use those same tactics & generally receive the same results you mention. Gotta love those cow calls following your bugles! (grin) When I mention the 5 second rule it's only meant for the reasons I've mentioned above.
Of course there are tons of variables that can take place as others have chimed in with. Nothing written in stone with elk!
Cityhunter, I too love those bulls that scream back before you can even finish! (grin) But distance can be a criteria. We have lots of bulls that respond back that get our interest but we end up killing them with cow calls & others with bugling, all depends on what that bull wants! Not all want the same thing. Adjusting & adapting to the present situation can go along way!
Bottom line here is there's great info here that can assist newer hunters who wonder about these very thoughts! It's all about helping fellow elk hunters!
ElkNut1
Problem that arises if the distance was great & he doesn't bugle again then it's tough to locate his exact spot! You're at the mercy of him bugling again as you move in so you can now pinpoint his location, this can work well as long as he cooperates & you remain very patient awaiting his follow up bugling.
There are other tactics to consider if this bull will not call on his own again. Consider the time of the day so you know if he's in his bedding area or in transition from bedding to feeding. If in transition he may still be covering some serious ground! If after 10 a.m. he's most likely in his bedding area, this is good, this means he's at a destination spot & is not easily run off if handled according to his attitude for that day!
The bedding area is the best place to kill a bull! He's where he wants to be!
ElkNut1
There are various tactics that will work on those bedded bulls. Good luck to you!
p.s. yes lots of good info here but a bit off subject! There should be a thread entitled AFTER the 5 second rule! (grin) As most know the 5 seconds is a subject all it's own. After that is a totally different subject!
ElkNut1
And if those dont work you shoulda used the 5.5 second rule.... 7.5 second rule... and the 20 yard dash
Fun stuff for sure!
As for the 5 second theory---I doubt if any one calls then thousand one--thousand two--ect.
I am in the locater call crowd and then move towards any response.
I truly like that call and stalk if with in reason.
I presume we are talking bow hunting elk on this thread?
Good luck, Robb
Those with common sense will see exactly what I'm referring to. To debate this is simply childish & shows their lack of elk calling experience.
ElkNut1
I know it's a blow to your room-sized ego, but there's actually people other than yourself that have many years of elk hunting experience. I won't speak for the others, but I will speak for myself.
No, I don't agree with your "5 second rule". Yes, I do have decades of experience, and I do have common sense. And yes, I will debate this and it has nothing to do with being childish or a lack of elk calling experience. What it has to do with is MY experience.
I also hunt a hard-hunted general area and I stated in my previous post why I completely disagree with your "5 second rule".
Obviously you haven't changed since your last stint on Bowsite. You think of yourself as THE elk authority and everyone else should just shut up and listen. Sorry, not going to happen.
There are lots of great elk hunters that frequent this site, yourself included, that offer a wealth of information. No one person has all the answers. To think otherwise is utter nonsense. However, as a group, we can sure help those that are less experienced.
To continue to think you're the only one that knows how to bowhunt elk, and dismiss anyone that disagrees with you as childish and lacking in elk calling experience, is extremely petty and self-serving.
Platinum right here....
Oh wait, he doesn't own this forum....
;-)
i think we should listen and learn from everyones elk experiences, even first im elk hunters.
you my friend sound to me just like you described elknut1
Pretty bold statement right there.
Google it.
"As far as the "5 second rule", I do just the opposite. If I get a response to a locator call, or I hear a bugle (from either a bull or hunter) that I can't readily identify as real, I'll wait several seconds and give a bugle of my own. If it's an elk, he may or may not answer back. If it's a hunter, 99 times out of 100, that hunter will bugle back almost immediately, followed by more bugles and mews."
wyobullshooter,
So you don't feel that the response time to your locator bugle is or could be an indicator to whether it is a real bull or not? I am not seeing exactly what you are doing that is opposite of the 5 second rule that elknut posted, all he said was that based on his experiences a quick response can be a good indicator that the bull may be real.
So in your post you do a locator bugle and get a response but if you are still not sure if it is a real bull or a hunter you wait "several seconds" and then bugle back, so that means you bugled to locate, he bugled (but we don't know how long it took for this response) and then after waiting "several seconds" you bugle back and your indicator if it is a bull or not is that the bugles will keep coming along with mews, what makes this opposite of anything that elknut posted? I don't recall him posting a scenario or thought past the initial 5 seconds
Your other thought that you posted in the same breath, if you "hear a bugle" that you can't readily identify as real you wait several seconds and then bugle back and if it is an elk he may or may not bugle back, and the indicator that it is a real bull is what?
The only thing I get out of your statement is that you respond within several seconds and the elk may or may not answer you and that 99 times out of a 100 the indicator on whether it is a hunter or not is there will be on going bugles combined with mews.
While I do agree that you can often tell it is a hunter by the extended replies of bugles and mews I think the basis of elknuts post was in regards to response time of elk of which I totally agree that when elk communicate it is often, but not always, very prompt.
On his own forum he simply banned those who challenged him. He can't do that here. (grin)
This forum is great for debate and discussion among some of the best archery elk hunters in the world, besides the self-proclaimed "Leading expert". There are some truly great ones who post here.
Elknut posted "We find bulls that respond inside the 5 seconds are generally the real deal! There are not many hunters walking the woods that have a bugle ready to respond to a bugle within 5 seconds! It generally takes us hunters a bit more time to react to this!"
That's his opinion, based on his experience. Based on my experience, I disagreed that it generally takes more time than 5 sec for a hunter to react. Again, this is my opinion based on my experience. As I said, an elk may or may not bugle back almost immediately. If it's a hunter, he will normally respond back almost immediately (i.e. less than 5 seconds). So we disagree. Who cares, his way works for him, my way works for me. Simply two different perspectives.
As far as an ego pissing match, I'd suggest you go back through this thread and take your blinders off. One says, as a group, we have a lot to offer. The other calls those that disagree with him childish and inexperienced. If you can't, or won't, differentiate between the two, I can't help that.
I figure its irritating to think you are proclaiming you are top bull only to have someone else fire back before your proclamation even gets a chance have an effect on the crowd. Might get them fired up.
I'm talking about elk hunting, not about this thread...but now that I re-read my post...
Besides your disagreement with him on whether or not hunters take more or less than 5 seconds to respond and his bad comment, I am still interested in your experience or perspective of elk response time. You say it is normal in your experience for a hunter to answer immediately, 99 out of 100 times but what are your stats for elk answering immediately after a locate bugle in units that have calling pressure? 50/50? Do you have different experiences in units that have less pressure?
My NM experiences in general are that elk will often respond promptly when called to (if you say what they want to hear or they think you are actually an elk) not always but most of the time, a little slower in units with heavy calling but no drastic change.
Blessed we are here on Bowsite
"ElkNut Outdoor Productions - Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/ElkNut-Outdoor.../167018863327658 ElkNut Outdoor Productions: Our focus is elk vocalization. Yes bulls & cows ... ElkNut Forums featuring the leading expert in the elk hunting field. elknutforums"
Lou, for the record sir I've never in my 60 years have ever stated in a thread or any post that I was "The leading expert in the elk hunting field". Not sure why you'd ever say I did? I just saw cnelk's post, I did not write that, it was written by the guy that made the Facebook page for ElkNut Outdoors. It was John Fitzgerald who put the whole page together & wrote that statement for emphasis I presume? You may want to ask him since he's the one that did write it. Too, something similar to that phrase is mentioned in the Elk Hunter Magazine by Ryan Hatfield where I had the privilege of writing the Elk Hunting column for a year & a half. That similar statement is also written in over 20 other articles in elk hunting magazines where the ElkNut name is mentioned, these phrases are done by the editor to gains hunters interest, I do not post such a phrase & never have. This similar phrase is also mentioned when I'm introduced at seminars, again I'm sure it's to spark interest of the attendees.
It would be great if we can all move forward here & use this site in a productive manner. There's no reason we can't all get along & do our best to learn new things & share knowledge that we may have that others may be in need of. Thanks for your thoughts!
ElkNut1
I agree that "There's no reason we can't all get along & do our best to learn new things & share knowledge that we may have that others may be in need of."
That's why it's bad form to call-out someone who politely disagrees with you as "childish" and question their elk calling experience.
Google must be wrong...
Now, back to the elk action~
I have had bulls respond to my cow calls in 3.75 seconds! Maybe it was more like 7 seconds. I was getting ready to kill them to really count accurately lol!
We both know what you are all about. No need to press the issue.
Outside of this thread this question has never come to light so it hasn't been an issue that required attention. Will I change it? No, no reason to. I do appreciate your thoughts & concern.
I will be the 1st to say I do not know it all & never will, I doubt anyone could ever boast that title. But it doesn't stop me from spending 100's of hours on the phone & hunting sites talking to others about their concerns with situations & elk encounters that left them baffled, I do this freely because it's my life, I love talking about & hunting elk. I will be this way until the day I die!
ElkNut1
You know (and I know) nothing happened on your site or your Facebook page without it being under your thumb.
Bottom line is I love helping other hunters, most are so appreciative it can leave you speechless. Check out this guys note sent to me. This is why I do it!
ElkNut1
Dear Mr. Medel and family, I would like to thank you very much for all your help. I purchased your audio book and a four pack of your instructional DVDs. I listened to them over and over. I can say I may have listened and watched them all over a dozen times before heading out in the mountains. My neighbors thought I may have gone crazy for bugling and chuckling and grunting and cow calling almost every evening. My wife, thanks God, tolerated me. My two young sons joined me as I bought them each their own mouth calls. Well not only I learned to imitate most of your calls, but also, to some extend I learned to interpret calls and predict movements and behavior. In Colorado, the elk started talking the last week of the season. Thanks God, I was finally blessed with my first archery bull elk and came back to my family as proud as one can be. You see, you don't only sell tapes and you don't only teach people how to hunt, you make positive changes in people's lives. You bring a kind of success, pride and happiness that stays with people for ever. I don't believe I will ever forget my first successful archer elk hunt, and I don't believe I will ever forget how grateful I am to you and your family. God bless you and your home. I hope you will have many long long years of hunting, teaching and happy times with your family. Sincerely Yours Andre
Good thing I didn't click that "no debate" button! I'm starting to enjoy this! (grin)
ElkNut1
Then again...WTF do i know ??
Too, just because a bull responds in that time frame does not mean he's ready to die, it just means you received a response! The key is listening to the message sent by the bull. This will most likely let you know if he's a satellite or herd bull. Distance is certainly a factor but not a big deal! Knowing what type of bull you're dealing with dictates your next move & his attitude for the day. If multiple bulls bugle, sweet! This means you are most likely near a herd bull with a cow in estrus or very near estrus. This can really spice things up on how to handle one of the bulls!
If after any bull not much will bring a bull in better than a simulated breeding sequence. After all that's what brought the satellites there in the first place!
ElkNut1
As for 5 second rule - as a comparison I once heard that a hen turkey never clucks more than three or four times in a row. A hunter is usually six or more. From watching turkeys in the wild, videos and listening to other hunters this is a very good rule of thumb. I found it to be accurate 90% of the time. It is a very similar theory to what Paul proposed and I find it very interesting. Even after discussing this with my fellow hunting partners and watching videos - in the woods there always five or more even when they swear they were less - I play back the recording of their calls and it is five or more!
Don't buy the 'play book' PM me your address and ill send you mine from when I drank the Kool-aid
Now if Bigdan wrote a playbook i would be all over that !!!!!
Chuckles are used by elk as an invite, grunts are a warning or intimidation. Using the right one depending on the bull & encounter can make the difference to calling them in or running them off in some situations.
ElkNut1
If Bigdan wrote a book I'd buy it too! He's a great guy & I have a ton of respect for him. Funny thing is I also have respect for Lou & Brad, they really aren't bad guys & have a lot to offer the elk hunting community, that's the bottom line in my book, Pass It On!
ElkNut1
Willieboat, I'd buy your playbook.
He doesn't squawk on his own kazoo, but Willieboat just killed his 50th elk before his 50th birthday. Not many, if any, have accomplished that feat.
In my opinion you don't need a playbook! (grin) Good luck as you head towards 60 of them ole boys!
ElkNut1
Here is what John said before I posted. In fact he drew my attention to this thread. "Paul starting to blame me again? What an ass!" Here is what he said afterwards. "Paul and I worked cooperatively on promotional ideas, phrases, and concepts."
Paul I did my home work first as usual. You of all people should know that. The quotes are exactly what I received.
Returning the compliment, you really aren't as bad of a guy as some of your past actions and posts might imply. You, too, have much to offer from time to time.
As far as bugles, a guy with a Power Bugle or Primos with an open mouthpiece slung around his shoulder can easily return a call in less than five seconds. The heavily hunted bulls where I hunt may not reply for quite awhile, if at all, as Dan notes. There are no rules.
sad, bowsite members have allot of good wisdom and experience
but i hate reading comments from unhappy people one less bowsite member here , its just not worth the arguing.
I have reread my post like 4-5 times and I see nothing disrespectful to you at all.
We have different styles of hunting pretty simple--and I 'aint' selling anything--$$$
My phone blew-up yesterday with text about your comment...1 of the more funny ones stated that I had another Internet Troll running his yap at me, hope ya don't mind being #2 and not #1 (grin) I have no hard feelings toward you.
Like you stated it is for sharing knowledge and the last time I looked sharing knowledge is not a one way street.
Once again, I am sorry if I offended you Paul, I read nothing in my post that is disrespectful....different style--yes.
Good luck, Robb
Returning the compliment, you really aren't as bad of a guy as some of your past actions and posts might imply. You, too, have much to offer from time to time.
As far as bugles, a guy with a Power Bugle or Primos with an open mouthpiece slung around his shoulder can easily return a call in less than five seconds. The heavily hunted bulls where I hunt may not reply for quite awhile, if at all, as Dan notes. There are no rules.
ElkNut1
It's tough to stop folks who feel the way they do, much of it is very flattering & it's a great feeling when others show their gratitude for things I've shared as well as many others who have taken their time to do the same. It shows what we do doesn't go unnoticed. Who doesn't like to feel that they've helped out a fellow hunter.
In the end success is my gauge in hunting OTC Public lands. I live to help other elk hunters share this same success on their OTC hunts as well. Call me what you want...
Here's a very nice testimonial from one of those appreciative hunters!
ElkNut1
This site is so much better when it's just about hunting.
Just as you can't change the way you've treated your friends since, I can't unring this bell.
But you can change how you respond to people now. Never too late for that.
I have tried most to the things you recommend. Not everything works where I hunt. I have had to learn to adapt and modify some points. Some things I just don't do. That should surprise no one. You brought a lot of information together and made it available to anyone with the time and interest to pay attention. It is no big deal that not everything you recommend works universally. You offered your 5 second rule free, and some people liked the idea, and some said they did not think it was a good rule for them. The great thing about threads like this is that we can discuss "rules or ideas" and we can all share, and all can learn. Probably I will at least think about your 5 second rule the next time I give out a location bugle. Also I will listen carefully, the next time I get a response, to see if what I hear fits your rule. To that point you accomplished your purpose.
I think you would be on solid ground claiming to be the worlds leader in training hunters for elk calling. At least, you have done far more than anyone else I know of. I could care less if you claim to be the worlds leading elk caller. That is arguable, and it is hype. So What? If you claim to be the leading Whatever, then just take ownership of it, and don't blame someone else. That sounds poor. Do you really think Dick Cabela would have said "I did not say we are; The Worlds Foremost Outfitter"? Maybe someone else came up with the slogan, but he and his brother owned it. It is their advertising.
I would not have quoted John, but you accused me of going off half cocked or not having my facts straight. For sure, I try to keep my words accurate and straight. Maybe I too am the worlds foremost something. LOL
Bullhound, BSBD hit the nail on the head.
BSBD, thanks for your thoughts! You are spot on that there's more here than just this thread. It started back on the ElkNut Forum. (which has been passed on) As owner of it at the time I did the best I could or knew how to keep things running smooth without hurtful debates, regular debates are just fine but emotional ones go nowhere, there are no winners in those just hard feelings! A couple of members in this thread went against the grain of things & one thing led to another. I felt in time if things stayed that way something had to be done. It was a very time & decision. Maybe I was too rigid maybe I wasn't, honestly not sure? I do know after several years of it my hat goes off to Pat here, running a forum is not easy, not in the least bit! I have a lot of respect in how he keeps it together!
cityhunter, the thread started out as the 5 second rule for hunters who receive a response to their bugle. This is just one way of helping hunters decide if they heard a real bull or not, nothing written in stone but odds are good that within 5 seconds of your initial bugle that it's a bull. That was it sir! As many threads go they can get side tracked, this one was no exception. So here we are! (grin)
Jaquomo,(Lou) I'm sorry you feel like that Lou - as I said above I admire all you've shared over the years and was proud to have your testimonial. At no time did I want to dig up dirt & was surprised as any when it took off in that direction.
I know following the rules at a Forum can be dicey - I have my own example here at Bowsite where I overstepped my bounds and was taken to task for it. Fortunately Pat and I found it easy overtime to let bygones be bygones and move forward - it's all about the elk hunting discussions not personal feelings.
I'm willing to extend my hand out to you in a handshake & let the past be behind us, no hard feelings harbored here. The same applies to cnelk.(Brad)
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
Some make this a lot harder then it is !!
In one case, the banned individual posted a link to one of Corey Jacobson's elk calling videos. You had a business dispute with Corey that we didn't know about at the time. Out he went.
In my case, after the wave of banning of others started, I simply wrote a light-hearted parody about the farmer who had no rules for hunting on his farm, until someone "broke" the rules. Banned.
There was nothing hurtful, nothing antagonistic or emotional going on (except from you...). Only challenges to your superiority. Ok, I get it, it's your sandbox, and you can play with whomever you like. But your selfish insecurity led to the loss of a ton of valuable knowledge that could have been shared with your "followers".
Then after a number of us disappeared and some folks started asking why, you posted an untruthful explanation about why we "were removed from" (EDIT) your forum, instead of telling the honest truth. We were banned, so we couldn't respond. But many know the truth. It was this dishonesty that bothered me, especially since I considered you a friend and strongly supported you.
Now you're back on "our" forum. There is no one supreme expert on here. In fact, you may not even be among the top five or six "leading experts" posting on this thread. So whenever you condescend toward others with differing ideas, call debate "childish" if the ideas disagree with yours, expect to be called-out because your way is not the ONLY way.
Sorry to rant, but some things needed to be clarified, since I and others have reputations to uphold as well. I'm finished with this thread, and won't bother to post on any other thread you start. Not worth the aggravation.
EDIT: I went back and reviewed your "explanation" and you did say we were "removed" for having "bad attitudes & derogatory comments towards forum members including myself". You also said you approached us through phone calls and PMs to remedy the situation. I can't speak for the others, but you didn't contact me except one final PM to tell me I knew why I was being "removed".
ElkNut1
This is a very good thought! 100% agree!
"We have more things in common than things that should separate us."
Paul
Why not reach out to me personally if it was so important to you? You've had my phone number and contact information this whole time. Never heard from you after my excommunication from your church.
Best of luck in your business and your hunting. No hard feelings. I don't need the aggravation.
But then again i don't have anything to sell the minions....... I would give it away for free.....And call it giving back to the pastime i enjoy so !^#$ing much !!!
Good luck, Robb
I recall paul trying to lure some away from bowsite !!!
I disagree with the accusation that Paul was trying to lure people away from Bowsite. I don't think informing people that he, or anyone else has a web site, "lures" anyone away from here or anywhere. I visit several web sites each day. It is a big world, with room for more than one. The Elknut forums, now Wapiti Talk is another forum that adds variety and additional opportunities to share experiences with people. It is a different camp of hunters with a different atmosphere. Personally I liked it, as Paul kept it from being as contentious as Bowsite can be.
Edit" I just read the whole thread. Something I didn't do before posting the above. I sure would like to meet and hunt with some of you guys one day. If ever obliged, I'll just watch and learn.
Not knocking a person here but, it sure seems like some things were done in the past that might be done differently now, if the same situation were to present itself. I just want to elk hunt with people that know elk hunting! You guys really are blessed to live among them. God Bless men
This site has many well rounded elk hunters on it that can no doubt help you achieve your goals, keep goals simple & achievable then step up to the next one, this way you will find positive results, elk hunting with it's many facets is a process! Good luck. I still learn everyday but am willing to share with you what I can. Thanks!
ElkNut1
There are a whole bunch of "leading experts" on this forum. Everyone comes from different backgrounds, with different hunting styles. Sometimes we may think we know more than we really do, which is why debate and discussion is healthy. Glad its permitted on the Bowsite because many have much to share from the thousands of years of collective experience.
Elk hunting in my opinion needs for the hunter to be calculated in his attack ! it also needs to be second nature hunter cannot second guess himself !
Paul i often watch video or read stories and see were guys went wrong , its easier to see and learn from the mistakes of others or myself .
For instance yr other thread running at the bull , i read were u foiled that setup , from the sounds that bull should have been killed, or at least shot at , I have run at elk herds me and lou talked about this years ago. I on purpose kick rocks break twigs the bull knows im there i announced my presence my approach is a lot more aggressive then yours ,If a bull is expecting a fight im going to give him one. He is now in a position were he is forced to move towards me , He does this to cut me off from the his cows . Im a new bull in the area that hasn't backed down from his bugles im the bull that keeps cutting him off im the bull that moves forward im the bull that rakes trees when he s calling . Herd bulls keep most sat bulls in check with there bugles. Dominate bulls can just bellow a bugle and subdue them sat bulls this keeps them from injury . Blowing cow calls inside a herd of rutting elk will get you sat bull action at best,, and i guess in some states a sat bull might be 300 plus Ive been in herds were the bulls never cared about cow calls all they wanted to do was kill each other .These herd bulls are so easy at this time ,there dominance plays against them.
I was happy this year when a bowstiter texted me he killed his first bull from the sounds it was the herd bull, he texted to thank me all i did was tell him what and why works for me he had been hunting elk but never a kill he applied some of my aggressive tactics and scored his first elk at 8 yards !!!
My tactics i call aggressive only because i see so many walk on eggshells while elk hunting kid gloves approach. I never go into a setup unless i can kill that bull im not there to observe and educate them , so many chase elk and are content with getting into a pissing match with bulls not closers are these hunters . Few years ago i took a newbie elk hunting we glassed a bull one evening i plotted our approach for a AM . As i got near i didnt hear any bugles , I let out the loudest bugle i could muster right off the bat . Bull sounded back asap , about 400yards off, I sat for a minute to figure out the landscape wind etc bull was above us on a burn area , I took my friend we moved forward making noise as we went along ,constantly checking the wind. We got to a point were i thought it would be a perfect setup , I told friend to move forward i would stay below the bull in this small timber patch .Bulls love being above a challenger this gives them the upper hand and they will capitalize on it . Bull heard our approach and was getting pissed off , he was screaming, all on his own with no other bulls in the herd . A small herd maybe 6 cows herd bull was about a 320 type bull , I then waited till he sounded off I cut him off the second he bugled then raked a tree making all kinds of noise he sounded back ! again i bugled on top of him. Bull i assume walked away from his cows and came over to fight me. My fiend was to his right about 35 yards i was 62 when he showed himself above me , I recall the sick feeling i got when i saw them ivory tips to be honest i was jealous i had placed my friend within a bull like this , I had to restrain myself esp when bull was at 58 yards standing there like a 3d target . My friend never once looked my way all i told him was forgotten , I was getting mad this bull should be dead i continued my screaming and i guess my anger was reflected in my bugles bull kept looking for me , I knew this wasnt going to last forever , bull walked slowly back out of view , I was trying my hardest to get my friends attention but he was in another world . I managed to call that bull back , still my friend was frozen . Bull walked off i ran up to my friend he was happy wow I was pissed i said anthony we just blew a 100 percent opp on a great bull , I explained to him so many times we wont have many opps we need to capitalize on every one, no mistakes to be made . I took him and we went up and unto burn , I was now in bulls core area i again challenged him and again he moved towards me this time bull was a little cautious and held his ground at 60 plus yards from me. Anthony missed this bull with a chip shot his nerves got him , every setup i got him a shot total of 3, two clean misses on great herd bull hit in the neck. I then told Anthony i did all i could for u with only 3 days left i said its my turn . I tagged out that morning on a good solid 320type bull at 25 yards bull was walking away from a herd i went in hot pursuit after him i dogged him for well over a mile just staying behind him , I kept him talking with bugles finally i guess bull had enough of my antics , he turned and ran at us . I was caught off guard as bull was blowing steam less then 30 yards in front of me i could see fire in his eyes , he was confused he then ran to my right i instantly bugled at him and in a same motion ran to my right drawing my bow while moving in bulls direction. I confused the bull enough again he stopped and i was at full draw while trotting he was quarter to me and i let it rip at less then 25 yards bull was dead in seconds blew thru his shoulder arrow out in front of hip, Anthony was still back were i was when i bugled , Anthony was shocked how fast it just happened, Paul these are my aggressive tactics .
Paul a trade is never learned its stolen ! Ive stolen my tactics from BigDan JIM Ponc Willieboat and Lou.
Paul if you want to become a better elk hunter get rid of them back up callers and hunt solo its way harder to get a bull into position as a solo hunter and caller , but i have a few tricks i can teach you Paul and all for free !! Paul just last yr i had two bull tags two setups and two dead bulls all alone paul no help just me and my bugles both bulls were killed with just a few bugles , So many make this rocket science ,, Paul i was born in the Bronx so if a bx kid can do this anybody can !
Everyone knows bulls key on three-legged cows, especially in that first hour, because they can't get away as quickly.
Too bad it's not enforced.
"Bighurt" now that's funny right there. HDLMK
LOOKUP THIS INDIVIDUAL Cade Grace from Alabama Goes by the handle "Bighurt"
That's some "next level" thunking from old #1, right there!
I tell myself to always be aggressive. Looking back after each hunt I still find I am too aggressive once for every 10 times I am not aggressive enough.
I think a lot of Paul's ideas are way to complex for most elk hunters and I think he is wrong with some theories. That said I am smart enough to know most likely I am the one wrong and Paul has forgotten more about calling elk then I will ever know.
I strongly agree with his theory here on length of response time.
I still think UTAH is going to beat USC Ike. :^) God Bless
How many SEC and PAC 12 teams would OSU lose to anyways? 6? 7?
Baylor and TCU. Meh. What's this 80 points a game crap? One of these days they're gonna play somebody who goes out there and hits them in the mouth.
Alabama is always over rated. It is a given if you play in the SEC you are going to be over rated. Seems like every time they square off out of conference, they get spanked on home.
Who will that be to punch either of them in the mouth? They punch harder than anyone else. The big 12 is where it is at. The championship game will show that. Their schedules have been tougher than anyone else's by a LLLLOOOONNNNNNGGGGGGGGG Shot.
Looks like I was wrong about USC losing though.
If i was going to open a shop i would go to the boss and ask for his blessings !!! esp if the boss has a top site!
As far as sending PM's to anyone on Bowsite trying to steer them to the ElkNut Forum when it started 3 years ago that too is a myth of yours. (it has since changed hands)If there is anyone here that says I did this please come on here publicly now & share the PM or what may have been said in it.
The only person I sent a PM too 3 years ago was a to young man that just started posting here, he had a bunch of questions on elk hunting & was new to the game. I sent him a PM to check out the Tips & Tactics link that I was assembling as a part of the ElkNut forum, this link has tons of info on it with over 30 subjects, several on which he had questions, I felt this would help him in his new endeavor & save me lots of typing!. This part of the forum was for reading only & still is, no one could comment on it, it's like a blog. At that time there was no ElkNut Froum to post threads on as it was still being built so no I wasn't trying to get him to come over & join anything. He did not have to register to read that link & couldn't have if he wanted too as there was no Forum yet.
Glad to see you have had success in elk hunting, I hope it continues for you, thanks!
ElkNut1
