Bowsite.com

Understanding Elk Sounds

Rather than piling more onto Paul Medel's 5 second rule thread, lets discuss/debate elk sounds here. I certainly hope Paul will share his thoughts here, as he has had much experience and success too. Some of us were saying Paul's elk language, and the response he recommends to the sounds they make, is too complicated. For example in his Playbook he lists 29 separate cow and bull sounds. They are divided between the genders, yet sometimes bulls make what he describes as cow sounds (barks) and cows make what he describes as bull sounds (re-gathering call). Considering that, you could have many more sounds in the elk language to interpret. The reason I believe Paul's elk language is too complicated, probably comes from a basic disagreement about the elk themselves. I should get plenty of howls of heresy for this, lol but I don't think elk have a language and they don't try to communicate. They react to stimuli, or biological urges. It is just like the dog standing on the porch barking when you walk by. He is not telling you something. If he comes running and growls with his ears pinned back, it is not a planned communication. We recognize what is happening and react accordingly. I think the same is true of elk. We hear a bull chuckle and think he is saying "come here baby", but it is just a biological urge affecting him. Paul talks about barks and nervous barks then separates them farther by their frequency of use. I can't remember how many times I have heard these sounds while out working in the forest, scouting, or hunting. I am persuaded that these are all the same sounds and vary due to the differences in the elk and the stimuli. The elk are not communicating. They are reacting. A nervous bark is a bark. The elk is nervous. Sometimes they are so nervous they immediately run off. Too bad for you. Sometimes they wait. You can either try to calm them down or they will get more nervous. Still a bark is a bark and the differences in meaning is in the mind of the hunter. OK what else? Has Swede pushed this too far or should we base our calls and reaction to calls with a different mind set than we perceive from the Playbook?

Swede, Here is my canned answer:

Swede, It's like when guys say they wear and use the scent eliminating stuff because even though they know it won't eliminate their scent, they believe it might make the deer think they are farther away than they really are. To believe this, you have to believe the deer are able to somehow reason and make decisions.

I believe, like you, that everything an animal does is a basic instinctual reaction to stimuli whether it be sight, sound, smell, or a combination thereof. That reaction can change from hour to hour or animal to animal.

The sound I have called the "where are you grunt" is definitely a different sound, and used by bulls differently than a regular grunt. I've seen it used only when a bull comes running in to me and he makes it within a second or two of stopping.

Offhand, I can think of a couple elk vocalizations that IMO have "meaning" to an elk. The "meaning" of both are a learned response that begin almost at birth. One is the mew. A calf learns this is a calming sound, reinforced by the body language of the cow. The other is the alarm bark. Again, the nervousness, body language, and response of the cow, as well as other elk, instills this sound to be associated with potential danger. In that regard, I believe these two sounds have "meaning" to an elk.

As far as bugles and chuckles, I also feel these are nothing more than responses to an instinctual urge. I've found the sound of each individual bull's bugle changes with his mood. The more frustrated he becomes, the "angrier" his bugle, but that's about as much as I try to interpret.

That said,, unlike elkmtngear's character, I don't think anybody's cracked the elk code, other than just some basic observations. Anything deeper than the basics is nothing more than speculation.

I agree Bob, but I think the different sounds are reactions to different stimuli, and not different elk words, so to speak. Different elk have different voices, and what we hear can be changed due to the environment and distance. Another thing I have observed is that elk react differently on different occasions. They often don't follow any book pattern. An elk that has just smelled me does not necessarily run off making a series of barks, while one that is looking in the brush, for the elk that just called, makes just one. I have had a bull bugle for a missing cow, and later chuckle for her. I have heard a cow bugle for a bull that was just shot. It is not just the bulls that do the re-gathering bugle.

mike lapinski has written some good books on elk sounds and hunting. one of the places he studied elk sounds and behavior was Banff national park.

much of what has been written or suggested since has been regurgitated. the same could be said for the frontal shot - some think this was never used or discussed before a few years ago.

I believe elk have a language or manner in which they communicate. some of it vocal, some body language. wolves for example as well as some mammals have a language.

certain sounds are nothing more than as the OP writes, urges or reaction. kinda like hitting your finger with a hammer and yelling ouch. knowing these sounds and what possibly triggered them can help the hunter.

imo, the two main factors that determine the type and extent of elk vocalization are overall population numbers in a given area and the bull to cow ratio.

Animals don't think and interpret language like we do. Some animals have a limited "language" that does have meaning to them and that we can interpret somewhat through observation and research, but we try to understand it on the level that we understand cognition and language to be, but that just doesn't work because language and cognition is not the same thing to them as it is to us. It's like trying to reason with a 3 year old. Have you ever tried that? It doesn't work because their IQ/cognative level doesn't work on the same level as ours and they're just figuring out the process of "reasoning" and then usually trying to manipulate it for their own reasons.

Dogs do have a limited vocabulary and an IQ to go with it and can understand a set of words as commands. Same with dolphins, whales, and and other primates.

Some people want to humanize animals and make them just like us, but the science points out that we're unique, as each specie is.

Elk do have a "language." They do make sounds that have meaning. It's just not exactly like a word in any human language.

With all that being said - I have a question _ I'm not trying to be argumentative - I truly don't know.

I've seen where a bull is "herding" his cows, using bugles, body language, and other gutteral sounds - a cow lags behind - the bull lets out a little bit different sounding bugle.

Wouldn't that be his way of communicating with her - "hey gut your but up here with the rest".

If she continues to lag, he goes after her and again bugles while "rounding" her to the rest of the group.

Again, wouldn't that be his form of communicating with her?

Again, wouldn't that be his form of communicating with her?

I was watching a doe with two fawns one day. When one fawn got a little too far away from her, she would give off a little eeeeh. Was she telling the fawn to get back here, which it did, or was she instinctively reacting to the situation, and so was the fawn? I think it is a reaction. Does it matter? What I am driving at is, what I believe is a fundamental error in understanding elk. Paul, and I don't mean to pick on him as he has many followers in his camp, has claimed the elk have a very advanced language. He describes 29 different sounds made by elk, and tells us what they mean. It is so complex that all but the most seasoned elk hunter could take along a Playbook, to consult when they hear an elk sound. I agree that the sound an elk makes is telling us something. Reaction or language. I just don't think the sounds are thought out, and we can base our actions on fewer plans. Instead of 60?? prescribed approaches to 29 calls, we can boil it down to far fewer.

I wish Chris Roe still posted on here. He lived with elk and studied their vocalizations as a professional biologist.

In my experience, inflection has as much to do with it than anything else. The same "call" delivered in an agitated manner vs a relaxed manner has different effects, produces different reactions from elk.

I've had conversations with lead cows that eventually led them to walk over and bring the herd to me or one of my hunters. I've also done this, apparently saying the wrong things about whatever she was wearing, that caused her to go the other way.

Lou I second Chris Roe I was telling bowsiters about him a while back but too many had fallen victim to Paul Fakebook nonsense . Chris had videos of actually bulls/cows interacting with each other , Not some guy behind a tree with a jet going overhead throwing out elk calls ! I learned some elk behavior while watching his stuff .

In order to be a killer one needs to learn the species we pursue . What they eat were they water sleep etc , The Actually calling is basic go sit in a elk herd for a day ,, Its there body language that is used in herd animals like elk a lot more then calling , Thats why Paul fails he things he is a master caller and maybe he can sound like a bull but if thats the case every setup would equate to a dead bull.

Lou another reason i hate cow calls years back I found a herd of elk about 4 bulls inside it ,, I could see a good herd bull I sat on the fringes 40 yards away blowing my cow calls ,, Yes i got a ton of bugles but the bulls were also talking on there own ,, I was sure a bull would come running to my slutty sounding hoe cow ,, the herd bull was in view just screaming !!!! I then had one of them Pesky alpha type cows come looking for me she near walked over me as i lay flat ...One sat bull tried to make his way over to me but the herd bull crushed him i heard the antlers clash for 3 seconds and stop the herd bull would not come to me ! I stayed with this herd all day . Today that bull would be shot at I would have moved into same position and then challenged his with the loudest Bugle i can belt out . Inside 50 yards that bull has no choice to fight or loose all them cows to me and his sat bulls . Bulls try to avoid conflict with there screaming at each other , but them bulls are also ready to kill each other if need be . I swear i have yet to see a Herd bull coward up and run when u have him in the right position !

swede, you have my head spinning after reading your original post! (big grin) I think you're asking if elk have a language & if so do they communicate with one another. No doubt about it sir, they do. I've studied elk for well over 30 years, these are public land elk that see pressure & not penned up for study. When elk talk no matter the gender in most cases a message is being sent out, read the message being sent & now you know their wants or needs, simple as that.

Do hunters need to know how to make every sound elk make to be successful, of course not. They can rely on about 5 different sounds, as long as they understand their meaning to the elk. This can help hunters to identify sounds they are hearing or what sound if any to use that may give them the best odds at a specific elk or group of elk.

Many very good hunters use specific sounds for specific elk every year this is nothing new. The reason for mentioning the variety of sounds both cows & bulls make is because not everyone wants to know the same sounds as everyone else. You may be interested in two or three & someone else may be interested in a different two or three sounds, next thing you know we do our best to define all of them to satisfy as many hunters as possible.

Many hunter are interested in any elk so you cater to this. Then you have quiet elk, how to hunt them? Then you have hot weather, full moons, rutting elk, etc. Trying to cover this many bases & more requires different methods & mindsets.

Take cityhunter here, he's mainly interested in herd bulls, so his best bet is to stay with bull sounds mostly but not entirely, why, so he can still adjust his calling if the situation changes & calls for something else like running at the bull via cow sounds. Yes running at the bull with bugles can also apply depending on the situation. But mainly if he sticks with a location bugle to locate then gets close to the herd bull & goes straight to an advertising bugle which can include a lip bawl bugle he will get the herd bulls attention pronto! Why, because those intense sounds are calling the herd bulls cows away from him without this so called challenger (cityhunter) going right in amongst the herd.

Then there's times when this calling strategy doesn't pull the herd bull in instead it results in a screaming match or hang-up, you need to reach back in your bag of tricks & go to plan B-C-D. B would be to face the herd bull then give two soft cow mews & one loud whiny mew, when he does this the herd bull generally screams at her to get over to him this is the hunters chance to bugle his challenge over the herd bull, this generally works pretty slick when inside 100 yards with cover & good wind. That's just one of many things a hunter can do here as no one thing works every time.

Depending on the bulls aggressiveness I've included several pants & 3-4 glunks before the dominant coarse bugle back & that has tripped his trigger in many instances where the screaming match was not producing a physical appearance! Of course rolling rocks, stomping & raking/thrashing a tree is part of the sequence.

So yes swede, elk have a language, utilize it to your advantage & good things can happen! (grin) I know to date you haven't been big at calling elk & that's cool but the more you do it & fine tune a few sounds it will lift your confidence to use certain sounds at the right time. Yes, there are times to keep our traps shut & allow things to develop! (grin)

ElkNut1

No offense but I am fairly sure elk do not have language, they communicate, there are many studies done that show the differences of language and communication, lets call it what it is, a form of communication.

Basic animal communication is why I think so many variations of our calling imitations work out in the field, when a visual or smell is not expected then you can get away with many differences but when it is a close encounter animals can hear the subtle variations or tones that change the meaning or message which are still simplistic in their nature. The more in the field experience one has learning the summer, pre-rut, rut and post rut sounds the more adept you will be to making the right call at the right time and knowing what you can get away with, but our biggest problem is the visuals and smells since this is a big part of their up close communication wiring.

Just my quick thoughts

I am not an elk expert in any way. I have observed different things out in the woods elk hunting however. I sat in a herd of cows for an hour once and watched them spread out and feed. They would mew as they were feeding to keep tabs on where everyone was. I was able to mew with a diaphragm call and have them respond. They would not come in closer than 60 yards. After about an hour the lead cow made a forceful sound three times which sounded like eeeeuh, eeeeuh, eeeeuh and the herd regathered and followed the lead cow to bed on the north facing slope. I was also in a herd waiting for the sun to come up and the wind changed. I heard what I would call an alarm bark followed by the sound of hoofs running up the mountainside. These are just a few examples to base my conclusion on.

So my opinion, based on just what I have observed, is elk have a limited language and they do communicate with each other.

A young lady sunning herself on the lawn suddenly lets out a scream. Her younger brother has just sent a spray of cold water from the hose, over her. The boy turns and runs. He knows what is going to happen. Cause and effect. Ten years later the young woman is confronted by an armed bandit. She lets out a terrible scream. cause and effect. The two screams are totally different, but both are caused by a sudden unexpected and negative encounter. If elk have a language, then there is thought too. If there is thought, then there is planning, and more than reactions or biological urges. If there is a real language, then Walt Disney and Warner Bros. were onto something more than just entertainment. I agree with those that claim that there is no language with elk, but there is inflection as Jacuomo said. The upshot of this is that if everything is reaction or biological urge, then we can base our calling on that simpler premise. A bark whether it is a low lever caution, or all out alarm is different only in inflection. If the bull barks, but doesn't run off, you say or do something to calm his fears. Who cares if Warner Bros. would have the elk say "who dat?" All you need to know is that the elk is becoming frightened or concerned. It does not matter if the bull means anything when he chuckles or screams. You know there was a cause and respond accordingly. I want to thank Paul and all of you for your thoughts on this, and will look forward to seeing what more of you think on this subject.

swede, we need to hunt together for 3 days. In that time frame I will share with you how to bring elk in with specific sounds depending on situation & how to run them off with specific sounds! I'm best at running them off so take note!(grin)

I agree elk do not reason matters out like humans, it's more of a reaction with them. Elk will react differently depending on the message/sound being sent!

I do have thousands of hours logged in understanding their different sounds & have used them in a variety of hunting situations. Elk sounds send out a message, if they did not then I'd agree but I would have noticed this in the studies.

This is a very good subject sir! We do need to hunt together though! (grin)

ElkNut1

Good discussion with some salient points- Especially Jaqs-

In my experience, there are a 1/2 dozen sounds elk make that are a clear indication of their intent/desire. The emphasis when they make these sounds is everything.

I think calling elk is a bit like telling my 17 yr old son dinner is ready; sometimes he comes running....sometimes he acts like he didn't hear what you said.

These elk have 'moods' for lack of a better term. Their mood is a big function of their reaction to your call.

Reaction <---------------------------->Reason

MOST elk are to the left of MOST humans in MOST situations on this continuum. Neither is at the point where it can go no further left or right.

Now this is a thread!! I dont have anywhere near the elk time of some here but from what I have witnessed Beendare and Jaq nailed my thoughts. Thanks for bringing some life back to the elk forum folks

Paul is dead nutz on.. Ive learned from his videos and also with Chris Roe... Elk have a language for sure. If you Locate bugle and get a response with chuckles. I can guarantee if you bugle on your way to that bull he will pack up his cows and he is gone. Now you stay quiet and sneek in that's a different story.. Hopefully he will bugle to locate you now.. Move in and get close now just about anything goes to get him in... This is only one example After studying Pauls training and Chris Roes, I can now consistently call in many more elk.. I called in 16 different Bulls to 40yd and closer one week. Before I was lucky to call in one or two on our trips to the same locations..

I think I'm hearing everyone on here agree that elk use vocalizations to communicate at some level with each other. The only debate seems to be how complex that communication is.

So the question of whether elk have a language really boils down to what your definition/expectation of a "language" is.

As some of you have pointed out language is more than just specific sounds. It's also the attitude/tone/inflection/emphasis/timing used as well as the situational context.

For example here is a letter:

Dear John: I want a man who knows what love is all about. You are generous, kind, thoughtful. People who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior. You have ruined me for other men. I yearn for you. I have no feelings whatsoever when we’re apart. I can be forever happy. Will you let me be yours? Gloria

And here is a letter with the exact same words but quite a different meaning just due to timing and emphasis/attitude(punctuation):

Dear John: I want a man who knows what love is. All about you are generous, kind, thoughtful people, who are not like you. Admit to being useless and inferior. You have ruined me. For other men, I yearn. For you, I have no feelings whatsoever. When we’re apart, I can be forever happy. Will you let me be? Yours, Gloria

My opinion is that elk have a primitive language that consists of a few basic sounds and that attitude/tone/inflection as well as the situational context probably have more to do with elk communication than the actual "words". I don't think that elk can communicate detailed information, thoughts or ideas vocally but they can communicate some basic feelings/desires.

"I don't think elk have a language and they don't try to communicate". Really disagree. While most of their communication may be non-vocal (as with humans), they vocalize (and communicate through those vocalizations) a lot. The better a hunter understands those vocalizations, the more effective he/she will be.

What I am reading is because elk don't communicate like us, reason and then talk, they don't have a language. Just because they don't communicate like us doesn't mean they don't have a language. I especially like definition b (4) out of the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Definition b (1) also applies but since we don't really understand elk we like to say it is not meaningful so it is not language.

Full Definition of LANGUAGE

1 a : the words, their pronunciation, and the methods of combining them used and understood by a community b (1) : audible, articulate, meaningful sound as produced by the action of the vocal organs (2) : a systematic means of communicating ideas or feelings by the use of conventionalized signs, sounds, gestures, or marks having understood meanings (3) : the suggestion by objects, actions, or conditions of associated ideas or feelings (4) : the means by which animals communicate (5) : a formal system of signs and symbols (as FORTRAN or a calculus in logic) including rules for the formation and transformation of admissible expressions (6) : machine language 1

Don't have a hill of beans to any of you here but, if an elk purpose wasn't to communicate with sounds, they wouldn't make them. Might be biologically, sexually, primitive, etc.... But, communication is why they are doing it. I would reason that requires some thought process or, any ole call would work equally well at all times. God Bless

Brad, no worries sir, 2 weeks ago Pat & I discussed a Sponsorship, it should be in place this week, thanks!

I also looked up "language" there are varying forms that apply to every aspect of life where communication is used. From sign language to body language & yes vocalizations.

Elk sounds are not complicated as long keep it simple. As Lou mentioned it's mostly in inflection of a sound. Take a classic cow call, it's generally used by all elk to be on a social level but it's not held to that! Cadence or intensity can dictate urgency, too rapid use of the mew/whine can denote separation from the group so assistance can be needed. The re-gathering mew which is the longest mew of them all can be used by a lead cow leading the group from bedding to feeding or vice versa & the list goes on.

Bull sounds are the same. A bugle is not just a bull making noises. His cadence or intensity of his bugle is sending a message. Bulls will use their bugles to warn/intimidate, call cows, locate other elk, advertise their location to the cows.

For instance, we've all heard multiple bulls bugling as a cow nears or is in estrus, at this time most bulls will hold their position & advertise themselves to this cow nearing estrus. They do their best to represent dominance & strength through their bugling to attract this cow, it's the cow who will choose the bull that will breed her. They do their best to be that bull as they attempt to out bugle/roar other bulls.

So one bugle sound does not apply to all their needs, it's the change in intensity & or cadence that can dictate their message. We as hunters use a variety of cow sounds & bugles in certain situations with great success as long as we do our part in not being seen or winded, too, right sound right time. It's more important to understand elk sounds than to know how to make them all. I have 5 that top my list every Sept, of course others may vary their list but these are money for us year after year.

1 - Location Bugle!

2 - Advertising Bugles - This can include Lip Bawls & Challenges! Bulls can get very creative at this time!

3 - Nervous Grunt, #-1 sound to stop elk dead in their tracks!

4 - Social & Excited cow talk including pleading.

5 - Contact Buzz - (formerly estrus buzz)

We use these 5 more than any others, there are situations we will add other sounds but these are the basic one we try to polish up!

ElkNut1

All I know is that when an elk makes this face, he is sounding off!

Have a great bow hunt. BB

That was just a cropped version of this photo.

What's he saying anyway? Inquiring minds want to know! BB

That is the 3 legged cow call

He's saying, "what happened to the 'estrus buzz'?

In the second photo I believe he's saying, "there never was such a thing as an estrus buzz. Its really a contented hum".

Beendare and Jaq have it right as usual... ;-)

BB, that is one gnarly look, just look at that bulls eyes! He'd put the fear in ya! (grin)

ElkNut1

That is the look of a bull that just took an arrow up the rectum.

Lou, don't confuse the contended hum with the buzz snort wheeze coughing hiccup. Easy to do

He's singing tenor on "love for sale".

Do some of the 'Elk whisperers" take it too far...maybe..... I wouldn't consider my self at that level.

No doubt some folks are resentful for some reason....

The fact is, a new hunter can shorten hid learning curve drastically by learning from the Elknut stuff and many of the elk behaviorists. The fact many of us can only spend a couple weeks a year in the elk woods limits us to our exposure. I think more exposure gives a guy a better understanding of elk behavior.

I think the guys that think they are having a detailed conversations with them should refer to the far side cartoon, [site not letting it attach] What we say......What dogs hear

Well said Beendare. Sure there are some that hate to see the Nut sell a book or DVD, and some imagine walking in his shoes. Regardless, he has shared a lot in good information. Whether you believe you are having a conversation with an intelligent bull, or causing a reaction, we can move ahead with confidence, knowing we are not just blowing away on a plastic bugle.

I see my post got pulled!!

He did mine again time to get a hold of Pat

Elk Mew, Bark, Grunt. Bugle & Glunk. That's it Any thing else is BS

"No doubt some folks are resentful for some reason...."

"Sure there are some that hate to see the Nut sell a book or DVD, and some imagine walking in his shoes."

I'd like to set the record straight. It has NOTHING to do with jealously, resentment, or wanting to walk in his shoes, for crying out loud. Guy wants to take the risk of starting a business, then good on him. He takes the risk, then he should certainly reap the reward.

The problem is, Paul thinks he's the only one that has successfully bowhunted elk. He thinks he's the only one that knows how to call them in. Anyone that disagrees with his "theories" is either childish or lacking in experience. Hell, it only took him a couple weeks after returning from his "sabbatical" to tell the rest of us how stupid we are.

There's no doubt Paul has alot of useful information, especially for those just starting out. Once he actually figures out he's not the ONLY one with useful information, the better off we'll all be.

Hey Pat! How about a Paul the elknut guy vs. T.R. Michales debate to see who thinks they know more than the other. That should be good for more than a few laughs. It might even turn into a classic that could rival the (Got me a possum) thread over in the small game section.

I respect a lot of guys on this Forum, many have great info to share including you wyobullshooter, I have nothing against you. I cannot think of any elk hunting site where I haven't met some great elk hunters, all sites have them! Hope this helps!

ElkNut1

X2 Bigdan

Sounds like there is some jealous people that have nothing better to do with their time than to act like dumb asses. Keep up the good and helpful posts elknut, not all of us are jealous. I imagine you seen more in a year of elk hunting than cityhunter has in his life.

Sounds like there is some jealous people that have nothing better to do with their time than to act like dumb asses. Keep up the good and helpful posts elknut, not all of us are jealous. I imagine you seen more in a year of elk hunting than cityhunter has in his life.

Ridge. City is not trying to sell anything. If you like Paul that's fine Grin. I don't think city does.

Bigdan, no one needs to buy anything from me, I will freely share any info I've acquired over the years, pretty much the same as you. (grin) Most hunters appreciate learning new things, I'm no different, I too have picked up lots of tips over the years off various sites & members. Just Passing It On!

ElkNut1

It seems like an elks communication would be as complex as it needed to be to exist be it body language audible noise or scent. If you think about what goes through an elks mind I bet it goes like this. Fear, breed, hunger, rest in some order depending on the day. Match those up with the audible noises elk make and go talk to the elk right? Am I nuts for trying to make it that simple? My point is they dont need to communicate many different things to one another why would they have a complex language?

From what I have read an elks communication is a closed system meaning it can only go so far! so the first step IMO is learning the basic calls and then learn your prey's wants and needs or tendencies and then expansion of calling will follow. I think the thing that makes calling hard for some is that they are trying to jump ahead of in the field experience. IMO elk communication is simplistic in nature and the complexity of elk communication comes from the individual tones, experiences and moods of each animal, the different times of the year like summer, pre-rut, rut, post rut, winter, spring, visual, scent, the type of terrain, hunting pressure, all of this influences their vocalizations. The more time one spends in the field the more you can understand what, when and how to communicate with them, there is nothing better than experiencing actual elk reactions to mold your gut intuition.

The saying I always have in my head "it is always the same and never the same" The same being "basic calls and basic reactions" never the same being "influences to the situation"

I know it doesn't really matter but IMO language is an infinite system and unique to human communication, consisting of words, sentences and an alphabet.

ridgefire cityhunter dont shoot dinks like paul does !

" How about a Paul the elknut guy vs. T.R. Michales debate"

with TBM as moderator

Ridgefie you are correct Paul needs to see many more elk in a season then i do 2 make a kill LOL . Id rather see one herd and kill that bull , then setup 20 times and foil them all like Paul running at the elk thread Hahaha

Paul I killed this bull all alone Paul do u ever hunt alone without a back up caller ? lot easier paul when u have a caller behind you .

Paul how did any of us kill a elk while u were away from bowsite LOL

mrelite, that was a good post! I had to read it through 3-4 times to pick up most of your thoughts, it's well thought out, very nice!

swede asked about the difference between Popping/Nervous Grunts & Barks in his original post, here are a few thoughts to consider on these two sounds.

The Popping/Nervous grunt or bark as some call it (not to be confused with a warning bark) is used by all elk in varying situations. By experiencing this sound in its many forms by elk under different situations one can come to his or her conclusions that if it's good enough for the elk to use it under particular situations then it will also work for us hunters!

This sound is used out of Curiosity or Wanting Identification & at times to Create Excitement. But it's not held to just that! Bulls will use it in front of a screaming bugle or at the end of one instead of a series of grunts. Why? Because not only are they trying to intimidate the other bull but he wants to see this new challenger.

At times a bull will give his threatening scream & give a couple coarse barks trying to run the intruder bull off! Elk will also vary volume in its use depending on nervousness or lack of it. Many times you will hear an elk give a soft one then another with a bit more volume.

Too, I've seen calves squeal this sound along with small chirps as they were hopping & darting around with a sense of excitement & the more mature cows not even giving them a glance. Seeing things like this firsthand really helps us to know when & where we can best utilize such sounds.

We've taken many bulls with the use of the popping/nervous grunt, timing of sounds is key, too, they must fit the encounter or fit a method of use. Do not confuse this sound with a "bark" a bark is used by elk as a warning to others in the area, it will be given by them several times in just a few seconds or within 60 seconds & they are getting further away, other elk may also chime in with this warning as they exit the area. Nervous/Popping grunts are given in a single note fashion, in most cases they're no closer than 30 sec apart, generally closer to a minute sometimes more.

Nothing written in stone here but by taking note of these two sounds & when they are being heard it can aid us in reading the situation correctly!

ElkNut1

There does seem to be some "Hating" on this thread...JS

Paul, I have learned to recognize the meaning of the different barking sounds by the situation, and actions of the elk when it is used, but I can't say I can hear the difference, if you understand what I am saying. At least you taught me to observe, and identify what the different barks are about. To me the sound is so similar that any number of things could account for the difference such as voices, distance, terrain, etc. The etc. includes far less than excellent hearing. My wife recommends I get a hearing aide. LOL

swede, it needs to be noted that all elk can make this nervous grunt or warning bark! What this means is the sound you are hearing can differ greatly. Imagine you hear a calf or a 3-1/2 year old cow or a 9 year old cow making either of these sounds! Now imagine that you may be hearing a spike or 2-1/2 year old 5 point or 6-1/2 year old bull making either of these sounds. As you can see their tones can vary greatly because of youth or maturity. Intensity of sound can also be dictated by the situation where these sounds may be heard.

The Nervous/Popping Grunt is an elk asking for a satisfying response or visual to it's nervous grunt. It's mostly heard in single note fashion, it's not heard like a series of grunts can be heard.

A warning bark is an elk issuing a warning to other elk in the area of a possible threat. This threat can be human or any predator, that part the elk cannot relay! (grin)

The only way to be 100% sure of what gender is using it is to physically see the animal making it!

There are situations we as hunters get into on a yearly basis where these sounds can be heard. Knowing the situation this sound is heard can help one to come to a correct understanding as to what's happening & what sound they are hearing?

For instance, you've cow called & a bull responds, you move towards him calling sparingly & he moves towards you chuckling or giving short bugles, you get to a spot to setup as you can tell he's coming! Many times these bulls will hang-up just out of sight or range. It's common at this stage this bull gives a nervous grunt! Why? Because he wants a visual of you or wants to see you physically!

Another instance can be you've bugled a bull & move towards him & setup, he too can come to a certain distance & give the nervous grunt, he wants to see the competition! Thing is the bull is still there! He may hang around & give this sound several more times but not every few seconds!

Another time to hear the nervous grunt is walking through the woods & elk may hear you close by & want to know what you are? This is where you could once again come across this single note grunt! I could go on & on with examples where a nervous grunt may be heard. Thing is in all these situations these elk do not bolt off right away, they hang around long enough for a satisfying action!

A Warning Bark on the other hand is generally heard when you are winded or seen! These elk do not hang around for long, instead they vacate the area rather quickly alerting other elk in the area to be aware of a possible threat! They do this with repetitive barking as they put distance between you & them! These elk do not hang around more than a few seconds!

As can be seen these sounds are situational as are most elk sounds! Identifying the situation you are in can help us quickly to evaluate what's going on therefore giving us a chance at these elk. If it's a warning bark your chances are slim to none! (grin) There is one thing you can do but it means you are willing to take any elk as it is a crap shoot! (grin)

ElkNut1

Good point, TBM. The setup matters more than the specific sounds when trying to get a bull into bow range for a solo hunter.

yes sir, agree 100% on a solid setup! As a runner & gunner of elk mostly when compared to spot & stalk or sitting a stand at an ambush site calling is our # 1 source of locating elk & bringing them in close, of course this means we have to go to them to get close in most situations then a setup is chosen!

We look for spots/setups where elk must come into bowrange before they can see the source of the calling! This puts elk in search mode. Like mentioned we too setup where elk cannot come in from our backside where we just came from or that being the direction of the wind. We try to force them in from our left, right or straight at us, this applies to solo or tag team with two guys.

When you have a good setup with the needed cover rarely will you need a decoy because elk are already in range as they seek out the calling! I will say decoys can have their place & I've been in a few where they could have made a difference where openings came into play.

ElkNut1

Register here to reply to this topic