Ok, here goes, multiple choice answer!
It's Sept. 15th you've been running & gunning elk, it's now 9:30 a.m. & not much luck! You're sidehilling on a steep mountainside & finally get to a point where you hear a bull bugle well above you on your side, a few seconds later a 2nd bull bugles to your left on the other side of the draw at about the same elevation as the first bull. You listen for a few minutes, as one bugles the other bugles back, this goes on as you listen. These two bulls are aprox 400 yards apart as the crow flies but it's near a 1/3 mile to bottom of draw. What's going on here?
A- These two bulls are warning each other to stay away or else!
B- These two bulls are warning any other bulls in the area to stay away?
C- These two bulls are representing dominance in an effort to attract any cows in the area including the ones that may be with these bulls?
So, what's your answer? Once you know what's going on here it will help to form a great game plan!
ElkNut1
The way I understand it the answer is either:
D) You can't figure out what is going on because you are already at the bottom of the draw with broken bones because the slope is too steep to stand on.
or
E) The time you had to figure it out is already passed because the uphill thermal put your scent right in the bulls nose.
Back out, or get high, watch, and listen. It's not calculus.
LOL. Just kidding!
Best of Luck, Jeff
They already know who wins if they fight. They each have cows and coexist in the same general area without problems and are more concerned with satellites dipping in and stealing a cow.
Or one could be a satellite and he is just keeping tabs on where the herd he is shadowing is still bedded.
I'm going to cow call immediately after each bugle, raising my excitement each minute and when one of those bulls starts to move to me, the other will run in. It's a process that has worked very well for me.
Ohiohunter is spot on when he said -- "he's talking about dissecting the situation" -- That is what's of interest here not what is the wind doing etc. It could be an overcast day & the thermals are going down the mountain till afternoon, this is why it was not part of the equation, it's simply what is going on here? Knowing this will help with ones next move!
I appreciate all the honest hearted responses, there's some good ones & some are correct! (grin) I'll respond here to a few.
Franzen, it's not complicated at all, this scenario is a yearly occurrence in the elkwoods, A-B-or C fits this encounter! Sure it can be handled in more than one way but first you have to recognize it for best odds in your favor! Thanks!
Chasewild, note one bull is on one side & we are well away from the other! No wind issue! Plus these two bulls have continued to bugle as we listened, no fear at that time of our existence!
12 yards, could be! (grin) Most hunters would have thrown in a cow call after a bugle or two though! Dead giveaway it's a hunter!
Stoneman, depends on ones hunt! Most thermals in timbered country are still fairly stable at 9:30 a.m. Too, as hunters we will take that into consideration when we are right there! We will do what's needed to keep wind in our favor once we realize elk are there!
Norseman, as you can see from the description these bulls have bugled multiple times continuously. This in itself shows more is in the message than "where are you guys" One bugle would have been enough to satisfy the one wanting a location of other elk! These bugles or message being sent goes beyond that! This is why these quiz's are good! (grin)
While some here are back at camp drinking their morning beers we're killing their bulls! (grin) If you dish it out you have to be able to take it! (grin)
ElkNut1
when in doubt, charlie out.
Norseman, true but we all started at the bottom so it's not too tough to put ourselves in their shoes because at one time they fit us all! (grin)
ElkNut1
Not anywhere near the Continental Divide in N. CO they aren't. By 9:30 the best thing you can do to keep the wind in your favor in that area is get away from the elk and back to camp to hunt them another time.
While we're back at camp planning our evening strategy, overeager guys like you are running those bulls out of the country.
As you can see there can always be countless what if's! So, what's going on in this encounter?
ElkNut1
We have taken plenty of bulls after 9:30 a.m. probably close to 100. We realize there are times to hang back & allow the thermals to do their thing. This doesn't mean we have to head back to camp & drink beer, we have better things to do.
We will hang out on the outskirts far enough back that our wind doesn't get near the elk we've bedded, this is just plain common sense, you don't need to read this in a book.
This can be phrased as "over eager" or "diehards" your choice, bottom line is we are persistent & get it done! Hunt hard hunt smart! Plenty of hunters here have killed elk after 9:30 all over the west.
ElkNut1
A- Herd bulls can do this but not in a repetitious manner where the bugling is non stop, a few bugles & they are satisfied.
B- The main reason two satellites would sound off repetitiously at that distance would be because there was a third bull (herd bull) with cows & at least one cow was in or nearing estrus, otherwise a bugle or two & they are done.
C- If these were herd bulls warning one another they would be right on top of one another not a great distance apart. These bulls had other things in mind!
D - If this was the case the newcomer would be much closer or approaching the herd, he would eventually be within 150 yards or closer to the herd exhibiting dominance with no fear as he attempted to draw the herd bulls cows away. This generally takes place if the herd bull has a hot cow in the group! The scenario I shared shows no sign of a hot cow or this encounter would be different!
E - D answers this thought!
F - In this case it's two real bulls as I mentioned above but this is a possibility if not mentioned!
G - Not a chance, only a rookie would fall for that! (grin) I'll share the answer in the morning! With the description in my original post it should take an experienced elk hunter as yourself seconds to know the answer! Several have answered correctly! Thanks!
ElkNut1
Absolutely false!
I have witnessed herd bulls bugle 30-40 times in an hour span prior to bedding time.
Lungshot, it's there! (grin)
ElkNut1
God bless and good hunting. BTW I have killed more than one bull in this exact scenario and several that were moving and bugling by intersecting them. Two stationary bulls bugling usually means a lot of eyes and a need to move very slowly and quietly and keep the wind in your face. Always check the wind continually. Elk live by their nose and that is one awesome smeller that they have.
God bless, steve
In my 40 years of bowhunting elk, of course I've NEVER seen or heard bulls in the situation you describe. I have no idea what you're even talking about. I've never actually killed a bull, only seen it on TV, so just wild-assed guessing here. Thank you for setting me straight.
I won't bother correcting your dissection of my analysis, because you're just playing the "big dick" game now.
Please, please, tell us the correct answer!
This style of aggressive hunting has suited me well and though I haven't killed hundreds I've killed enough to know what works for me. So while you guys figure out what they're saying I'm going to go kill him. :)
And as for you Jaquomo, I don't drink beer. So on your way back to camp, would you pick up a six pack of diet pepsi? I'm waiting here in camp and couldn't find any in the cooler.
Stop by and we can discuss how we'll kill those bulls this evening after this danged swirling wind settles down.
Do you also wear jerseys, call yourself a "team", pimp some shi**y new bugle tube, and blow up the interwebs with how you "get it done"?
Oh wait.
Kelly
Those that chose C are spot on! With enough time & years in the elkwoods you will see this for yourself. It really takes years of understanding elk behavior to realize this. Most of us are hunters so do not have the luxury of spending several months in the woods a year to learn the finer points. Sites like this can cut the learning curve down tremendously.
When two bulls are Bugling back to each other at longer distances you will find that the odds will show that both have their own cows. This Bugling can be non-stop for an hour, why? As these herd bulls reach their destination they settle in their bedding areas & can reach out to other cows within earshot to persuade them to join their groups, this can include them trying to call the other bulls cows away from him. When one bull bugles the other can bugle to out roar or out bugle the other bull for strength & dominance that can intrigue cows to consider another bull, they do this during the rut to build their harems. These bulls are not a threat to one another at this great distance & they know this! It's all about the cows at this time!
I will have an Elk Quiz 2, thanks!
ElkNut1
Along with a few other possibilities. The internet is a valuable tool for learning. That's why it's important to listen to and respect the opinions of others, and not get carried away with our own wonderfulness, as if we, alone, are Supreme Authorities.
Norseman, you surprise me!
ElkNut1
If so, the bulls were probably just talking and letting each other know their location.
Just my two cents.
Mike
Please don't become the TBM of the elk forum. One of those was enough.
ElkNut1
Please don't become the TBM of the elk forum. One of those was enough.
This differs from satellites harassing a bull & his cows, it's all in Reading The Situation! Thanks!
ElkNut1
News Flash!!! That's how the world of open internet forums work, sport.
ELKMAN said it about as concise as can be said. Elk are elk, and nobody has learned to interpret elk talk yet. You can certainly make educated guesses based on past experience, but that's all they are...guesses. As can be seen in this thread, problems arise when someone tries to pass on their guess as absolute fact, based on anecdotal experience. Then, when someone else's opinion is different based on their experience, words such as "inexperienced" get thrown around. If someone is REALLY interested in making the internet a great tool for learning, then perhaps that someone should realize that the more experience that is shared, the better. When insults get thrown around, and the pissin' match starts, all learning stops. Nobody wins.
There's basically two groups of bowhunters...those that are experienced, and those that aren't. Those that are experienced will make their decisions based on what their experience has taught them, realizing that sometimes they'll do the right thing, sometimes they won't. They understand elk hunting isn't an exact science. Those that aren't experienced, well, they'll be frantically searching through their playbook looking for that paragraph that told them what the bull was saying and what the hell you better do in that situation. Care to guess which group will continue to consistently kill elk?
We all know elk are elk and nothing is a guarantee. This was just a positive gesture to kill time waiting for results. But no, its always a pissing match puff out your chest and dissuade those who are actually interested in what the op has to say.
Sorry to piss your your pissing parade.. sport
If nothing in the elk world is predictable (as you suggest), then why even talk about them? How do people make money giving advice either the web or as a guide? Why sell maps w/ guesstimated locations? Why ask anyone any questions? Some members here make it very hard for anyone to attain any valuable information just b/c they have a hard on for themselves.
If you notice, I didn't mention him in my original post. He has a problem with me and others on here, is threatened by our success, and whenever we post something contrary to his beliefs, no matter how polite, he has feels compelled to play "show dick". He claims to want to "learn", but when those who are also highly experienced post ideas, he immediately corrects them. It isn't just me. As you can see from the posts on this thread, there is a respect issue.
I politely posted my thoughts about the scenario, and he snarkily "critiqued" each one, with a veiled insult.
On his own forum, he would simply kick us off. Can't do that here. So yes, he is much like TBM, except TBM had a sense of humor.
It didn't.
Which in fact tells me what may work for you doesn't work for me.
My success in killing elk hasn't changed. It's still very good. And each and every year I take newbies with me or help others via maps and scouting for them.
I promote many ways to hunt elk. I encourage people to find their groove and 'make their own tracks'.
It's discouraging to read / hear only one way or one answer to hunt a given elk situation. And that alone is detrimental to being successful. Way too many variables
Each day in the elk mountains is a newly shuffled deck. Ante up and play the hand you are dealt.
Without reading all the responses first, I'll give it a shot. The bulls aren't moving toward each other so obviously don't feel threatened. It's September 15 you say? Healthy animals will likely begin into the peak of rut phase for the next couple to few weeks. These bulls could both have cows. They could be talking to there own cows as well as trying to call other cows his way. That's the picture my minds eye paints at the moment.
Now if I'm hearing growls, grunts or antlers clashing, that paints a different picture [grin]reading the encounter correctly and adjusting accordingly is crucial.
Sure there's times when you're dealing with herd bulls, satellites or both, then toss cows into the equation & hunters wonder what they should do next! Sites like this can really help out newer elk hunters cut their learning curve way down & enjoy success even this year with some simple education.
Lou, I have no issues with you or Cnelk. I hold no ill feelings towards you or anyone here. I'm not threatened in the least because of anyone's success on this site, heck I'd love to see everyone here take elk on a yearly basis. I enjoy talking elk & sharing any info or experiences that has helped us in past hunts. I've helped over 1500 hunters take their elk, I do this because I truly enjoy the excitement they receive in their success. There's more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.
Quiz # 2 coming up! I'll be happy to share our level of experience at that time so ones can appreciate that hard work & dedication towards ones passion can unravel what many assume are unsolvable elk mysteries.
ElkNut1
if the bull to cow ratio is healthy (30+/100), it could be either A or B (basically the same).
if there are less than 20 bulls to 100 cows (Oregon), answer C may be the most likely imo.
Rather, he decided to dissect my perspective in an insulting, condescending manner. When someone does that, I will respond in kind.
The other posts from guys who kill a LOT of elk seem to indicate that they, too, believe there are more possibilities than simply "C". Apparently the point of this thread was not to have an honest discussion and "get the wheels turning" but to be schooled by the "master".
I'll leave it at that. Carry on.
By the way guys, do several of you really go back to camp & drink several beers then go out & hunt? I don't think that's even legal? Wow!
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
There are a pile of experienced guys on this site that I have grown to respect their opinion over the decade or so of participating. So thus, there are many quality comments here...and its understandable that elite guys get a little edgy when confronted....totally understandable.
All in all...its good info.
For men like me, that aren't experienced in these situations, leaving out key info that you are looking for will ensure the right answer to be hard to find. We were asked to give the answer from provided info. not add info to the selections. God Bless
"C- These two bulls are representing dominance in an effort to attract any cows in the area including the ones that may be with these bulls? So, what's your answer? Once you know what's going on here it will help to form a great game plan!"
It's very common when two bulls are bugling a fair distance away repetitiously every few minutes & hold position that they have their own cows & are looking to add more, these two bulls are being competitive as they Advertise their positions trying to call in new recruits.
Mark U, the above response should help shed a bit of light. Thanks bud!
Norseman, a bull dogging a herd no matter his size shows he's closing the distance & is interested in the group he's following, this generally shows there's a cow coming into estrus or in estrus & he wants part of the action. The two bulls I referred to were not closing in on one another as they bugled. They held tight in their bedding area or destination spot for the day. Thanks!
Bownarrow, I'll be happy to respond to your question bur it will be in the next post. Thanks!
ElkNut1
A couple instances come to mind, these are the latest ones I'm thinking about right now. Here's how they went down!
1 - We had two bulls bugling exactly as described in the original post, they did not move towards one another, they held position & continued to bugle for 45 minutes. That's how long it took us (my son & I)to get to the closet one. I ended up getting to aprox 150 yards & it got fairly thick & the ground was dry & noisy with quite a bit of downfall. This bull was the lesser mature sounding one but the easiest to get to.
He still sounded decent for an OTC Public Land bull. As I closed the distance I chose to use cow sounds since this is what he was asking for, this bull was not being overly aggressive & didn't show any signs that he was being harassed by satellites, this most likely means he did not have a hot cow in the group so I chose to stay away from challenging him. I hurried at a steady pace walking quickly I mewed & whined my way right to him monitoring the wind religiously, noise by me was not a factor as I intentionally stomped & snapped branches on my way to him as if I was a cow coming in. As I closed the distance the bull turned to bugling & chuckling to me & stopped responding to the other bull that was at least 400-500 yards away.
As I got to 40 yards or so I'm looking intently for other elk so I don't get busted by having tunnel vision on the bull bugling to me. I nocked an arrow right there & slipped in to a fir tree that had limbs growing to the ground. I made it to that spot with no more calling & scanned the area intently until I spotted him standing behind a downfall log, he was most hidden except for his neck & antlers. He started to walk up towards me & headed to a tree & started raking it in a displaying manner to get me to come on over. While he was raking I slowly stepped away from the fir limbs for a clear shot, he stepped away from the tree standing broadside under 20 yards. I let the air out of him with a heart shot! He had 6 cows that I saw after shooting him.
2 - This is the actual encounter that this thread was based upon! Two bulls bugling away at one another for at least 30-40 minutes straight. One on one side of the draw & the other bull on the other side. There was no attempt at all by either bull to close the distance, again this generally denotes two herd bulls!
Since we are closet to the bull on our side, we work this guy, the wind is coming straight down at us at 9:30 a.m.-- good deal! The sun has not hit this side of the mountain yet but we had over a 1000' to climb to get to him total. We made our way up silently with not one elk sound by us. Once again we hit noisy conditions. We were in tall willows & very dry leaves with negotiable downfall with scattered pines. We had plenty of cover here & good wind.
As we get to 100 yards or maybe a hair further from where we last heard the bull he growls one time! This tells us he's heard us & is asking for a response or identification of the sounds he hears below. He wants to be sure we are not a threat to him. I immediately give one soft cow call & intentionally rustle the willows we are in, not trying to be quiet here now, we want him thinking a cow that he was asking for is making her way up to him. My son heads up the hill 20 yards or so & I continue to give low mews & whines as well as rustling the willow brush, the bull decides he's coming down to hook her up & my son takes him at 30-35 yards! Not sure how many cows he had as I didn't physically see them but the sign on the bench he came off of showed 3-5 possibly, hard to tell.
We ended up taking the bull on the other side a couple days later! Bugles & cow calls brought him in for a 27 yard shot! Thanks!
ElkNut1
What's next Elknut??
Now if you have a herd bull with hot cows the satellites are much more likely to sound off continuously to attract the hot cows their way, at this time they are not challenging the bull or they'd get right over there in his face. These satellites can & do dog the herd & don't get too far away at this time, just far enough to be out of harms way!
Again, point of discussion is that when faced in the elkwoods with the scenario presented above the chances are very good you are dealing with two herd bulls! Nothing written in stone but the odds are very good that's what you're dealing with. When you inject other thoughts & things into a similar scenario then things can change. It's all apart of Reading The Situation & adjusting with each individual encounter!
The more time we spend in the woods & are faced with hundreds of encounters with bulls you can get a good feel by sounds made in addition to their activity at that time! I can understand the questions you have & they are good ones. When the scenario changes so can the evaluation! Again, all a part of elk hunting! Thanks!
ElkNut1
Well said. Isn't that what helping less experienced elk hunters is all about? We can imagine about anything including a couple of hunters trying to call elk, but Paul's explanation is the most likely to be the correct one. Thanks
This is the actual encounter that this thread was based upon! Two bulls bugling away at one another for at least 30-40 minutes straight. One on one side of the draw & the other bull on the other side. There was no attempt at all by either bull to close the distance, again this generally denotes two herd bulls!
Since we are closet to the bull on our side, we work this guy, the wind is coming straight down at us at 9:30 a.m.-- good deal! The sun has not hit this side of the mountain yet but we had over a 1000' to climb to get to him total. We made our way up silently with not one elk sound by us. Once again we hit noisy conditions. We were in tall willows & very dry leaves with negotiable downfall with scattered pines. We had plenty of cover here & good wind.
As we get to 100 yards or maybe a hair further from where we last heard the bull he growls one time! This tells us he's heard us & is asking for a response or identification of the sounds he hears below. He wants to be sure we are not a threat to him. I immediately give one soft cow call & intentionally rustle the willows we are in, not trying to be quiet here now, we want him thinking a cow that he was asking for is making her way up to him. My son heads up the hill 20 yards or so & I continue to give low mews & whines as well as rustling the willow brush, the bull decides he's coming down to hook her up & my son takes him at 30-35 yards! Not sure how many cows he had as I didn't physically see them but the sign on the bench he came off of showed 3-5 possibly, hard to tell.
ElkNut1
WV, not necessarily! That was a totally different situation! This bull in this encounter stayed vocal so we could get a fix on him & close the distance in silent mode. The other Quiz shows a bull that bugled twice while we were still aprox 400 yards away from him in heavy cover & well below us in elevation. He never called again as we slipped down his way so was not sure at all where he was. We knew we had not passed him but didn't know if he was left or right of us & we didn't want to slip in anymore than we felt safe in not blowing him out!
I will give the outcome shortly, thanks!
p.s. I cannot stress enough the importance of Reading A Situation & acting in a manner to give a hunter the best possible odds & not the elk! Thanks!
ElkNut1
