Would you know where to shoot?
Elk
This is a photo I just posted on my Facebook page. And I got to thinking, that it would be a good photo to post here and let those of you interested, in discussing where to shoot this bull. I would bet there's a ton that don't know the best place to put an arrow if they had this opportunity.
Where would you want yours placed. Or would you pass?
Have a great bow hunt. BB
I'll risk getting flamed. This bull was at about that angle, maybe just a bit more broadside, but not much, and with his head down drinking. It was also only 15 yards. The arrow passed close to just behind the shoulder joint and through the top of the heart. He only went about 10 yards after the hit. The shoulder is farther forward than most think.
I've also killed deer at that angle, though I don't worry so much about the bones. They're pretty small.
At 20 yards or less straight up the onside front leg about 6 inches above the black hair. Over 20 yards wait.
Im shooting right here. Arrow will sink to the fletching. Bull will keel over within 75yds
I'd aim a couple inches under cnelk to be about even laterally with the front of the "<". Under 20 yards.
I made that exact shot at 9 steps with a Spitfire mechanical. I was just watching my pin sitting there, tight in the < waiting for him to turn and relaxed a little too much. The shot went off and he was on the ground in about 2 seconds. He didn't go 30 yards.
Both shots depicted are close enough to get the job done.
"Arrow will sink to the fletching."
You need to shoot a heavier arrow. ;-) Mine went clean through.
Always like to post this photo on these threads! C
Thanks, BB! Great to see you back among us!
I'm shooting where Ziek shot! Well done, Great bull.
I just watched a hunting show the other day, the guys are down to their last day...
Big bull comes in more severe an angle than that. Bull is still, looking right at him. Shooter is around 40 yards away (best guess on the arrows flight) and he's full draw.
I'm sitting on my couch saying "he's not going to shoot him at that angle, surely".
Surely he did, the arrow flies and the bull has time to spin away, but the arrow finds a home high and back and the bull goes down.
Those guys were lucky. This looks like a dead bull.
Dead bull if it's a close shot. If only they'd look away like that when I was actually hunting...
Anywhere in the circle should do it
Just trying to visualize the bone structure here. Would this be about right?
Great thread, Bill.
Nick - is that a sock? LOL!
Bite me, Aaron....never said I was an artist! lol
I would tilt the top of the scapula back a bit more but yea I think you're pretty close. I could see the bones and the flat made by the thin muscles of the < real clear on the bull I shot.
If I was close enough, and I'm talking real close like ten or less, maybe, I shoot my stickbow pretty good but wouldn't be confident enough from any farther
I'm thinking Nick's bones are just a tad large.
So you're saying I'm big boned? Isn't that just a polite way of saying I'm fat?
Take BB along with ya, animals look the other way when they see his mug!!! Couldn't resist Buddy! } >>>>~~~~~>
I was just trying to draw the general area or "zone" where the leg bone and scapula are located within. All that really matters is staying just to the right of that "<".
And I can agree with Bob....the top of the scapula should be tilted back another couple inches.
Just wondered if I was visualizing this correctly. Now Bill will come on and say we should be aiming in front!
By the way, I shoot if I'm at comfortable yardage. No brainer for me...
I'm not an elk hunter, but I took that shot on a whitetail doe once. I don't know where the arrow hit, but it didn't hit where the red dot is, although that's where I aimed. To be fair, she busted me drawing, I held as long as I could, but she was wired ! The arrow went completely through and she hauled ass. The arrow just had a smear of blood on it and smelled like fresh venison, so I figure muscle hit only and a wiser doe. I would pass on that shot now, and have a few times since.
I took this shot on a deer once at 8 yards off the ground. I aimed tight to the bone and hit right where WapitiBob's bull's eye is. Deer bounded twice to 20 yards, turned to see what the noise was, and fell over dead.
Him being turned away is the key, the vitals are open!
If it's top pin it's a no brainer....I shoot Brad's dot or maybe just underneath it.
I would bet my paycheck Bill Allard would shoot that shot.
Hey Bill, good to see you're still out there kicking the tires! (grin) I could kill that bull where he stands to 35 yards but age has gotten the better of me & I'm much more patient & selective these days, I'll wait a few seconds for a higher odds angle, from his position he has no idea I am there. ----- Great to see you're still at it bud!
ElkNut1
Thirty yards or closer. Tough shot without much margin for error. Honestly, I believe I'd wait in this scenario but if it was the only shot I thought I might get, I'd take it.
I don't need an elk that bad. Some of those shots look like they are right on the cusp of the shoulder. It's easy to sit here and look it over, actual encounter in the woods, nope, I let him turn a bit either way.
You can see the bottom of the shoulder right here.
Never having hunted elk, but, what about a neck shot ?
LB, 100% no way! Your odds of killing an elk via neck shots is off the charts with archery equipment! Stay away from that shot bud!
ElkNut1
I'd wait, for a bigger bull to give me a better shot. :)
This is my take of the bone structure in this bull's position
Neck shot on any 4 legged animal with a bow is a very poor choice. Its a bow, not a rifle.
Personally IMO this is a low odds shot. Sure its executable but unless you're close and can think straight at the time I'd pass on this angle keep the bow drawn for a better angle. If he busts me, well that was one hell of a ride.
At this angle I would be surprised if you didn't get into the guts even w/ a well placed arrow.
If I could PLACE my arrow where I wanted, I'd pick this spot.
I think I would wait for him to turn. If he doesn't offer a higher percentage shot the best place to put that arrow is back in your quiver.
Cnelk's bones, despite being super gay, are a bit better.
I'd wait. He either is going to get closer or turn broadside to leave. Either way a better shot is soon to come.. Is it do able yes but so is waiting.
No.
Who has taken that shot, hit/broke the leg bone and didn't find the elk? Looks like if you are 1-3" to the left, you are hitting a large bone. Looks like if you are 1-3" to the right, you might get 1 lung/liver and a lot of gut.
I'd probably take the shot many have pointed out. The smarter elk hunter who has several bulls notched on his belt would likely wait for a better shot given the situation.
This is a bull not under stress in an opening with little cover. Several shots are about to open up. He could continue to turn giving a full broadside shot. He could turn completely giving a quartering away shot. He could lose interest in what's behind him and continue on the path bringing him even closer where shot placement will be much easier. This should be a dead bull...
Great photo BB!
If you look at Caz's blue line, he has the bottom of scapula outlined exactly. (Look at shadow line on previous post)
For me, 10 yards and at full draw, the arrow is launched. For me, anything longer than that I am waiting. But that is knowing my own personal limits.
It is obvious that bull doesn't have a clue that danger is ahead. If he is out of my comfort zone, there is very little risk is waiting for a closer shot.
I've made that shot in the past where others have marked the photo. Very effective and they won't go very far. But personally, I'd rather pass and wait for a better angle. I hate to take the chance of messing up a good shoulder roast on those V shots.
All due respect, but isn't Caz's line way too low? That shoulder hump is created by the top of the scapula and it seems Caz's line doesn't line up well with the back edge of that hump.
Not arguing for or against the shot, just trying to learn.
I believe BB's intent is to get us to think about anatomy and what it is we're trying to achieve. After a few years of listening to BB and replaying the results of my shot, I want a 3 blade head going to the center of the lungs where the arteries come off the heart. That required moving my aim point forward. In the above illustration and the shot I took, that's exactly where my broadhead went.
Anatomy class is back in session! Thank you BB for your invaluable educational contribution to the bowhunting community.
That bull is too small to shoot anyway..... ;-)
Agree midwest. Caz's blue line is no where near the shoulder. I like snapcrackpop's line for the near edge of bone relative to where you should aim. Still, that shot is not for everyone, and probably not until you have some experience, and only at close range. It's NEVER wrong to pass on a shot you're not comfortable with, and I would never try to talk anyone into taking any shot. But some don't seem to be listening to the results. I had no issue with penetration and didn't hit the stomach. Double lung through the top of the heart. I've never seen a bull go down so fast, and I've killed a few. Is broadside better? Of course. But at 15 yards, my arrows usually go pretty close to where I point them, and being close to a bull doesn't cause me to wet myself anymore. It's lethal and doable, and it's probably equal odds that he'll wind you at that range and be gone without a shot, as turn casually more broadside.
Then there was this; "...and can think straight at the time..." Well duh. If you're not in control at the time of ANY shot, you should pass. And I know it was tongue-in-cheek, but still.
Dang! At least we know what he's looking at.
I didn't say that the line represents the "Bone" but it is clearly pointing out the muscle attached to said bone. To say it's way off, I don't think so. There is no "Way off on the V shot"
What I believe we're seeing is the shoulder and it's muscle protruding out because the bull is stretching, looking the other way.
Turn your head, and one of your shoulders slightly to the behind, you can feel the opposite shoulder pushing out. This is the same thing that's happening in this photo.
Look at Wapitibobs photo above, you can clearly see the shoulder and what it's doing. Now add some angle to it, and the fact the elk is turned and you will have what I explained above and that "V" turns into a "Mini V" really quick.
Low is key on the "V" shot and in my opinion, some of the placements above are flirting with disaster.
PS, I too have stayed at a hotel or is it motel 6?
I think we're misinterpreting your line Caz. Is it POINTING at the humerus, or is the entire line representing the bottom edge of the scapula? If the bottom, left end of the line is pointing to the humerus, then I agree, it is a couple of inches from the TOP (Back) of it. Not the bottom of the shoulder as you stated.
Yeah...that was my...umm..buddy's shot. I've never blown a perfect opportunity like that..*nervous laugh
Blowing a shot like that could haunt a guy for months or years after the fact...whew...glad it wasn't me..heh.
The photo I first posted was certainly a very deadly pose if one was close and could hit EXACTLY in the right spot. But the margin for error was much greater than the margin for a sure kill. But a good hit in the right spot would bring him down within a few seconds. Fifteen years ago I would have taken it, but at my age and with a much lower poundage bow I personally would not take that chance.
Now for those that waited, here's how he turned. What would you do now?
Would you pass or do you think you know where to hit him for a sure kill? Again I am assuming 20 yards or less when I ask this question, knowing there are those that would shoot this shot from a farther distance.
Have a good bow hunt. And hello to all my old Bowsite friends. I am out many days a week, in the field, by recently just with my camera. I love it. Its so much like bowhunting!
BB
A little bit right or left is a what I'd prefer. Quick kill if you do it right.
Alert bull staring at you at 30 yards? Bad idea IMO. That bull lurches to it's left and you're hitting big bone.
Under 20? He's gonna die quick.
Well, if I was already drawn, he'd already be dead. I doubt there's much chance he'll stand there and let me get away with it now.
Cnelk's mark works for me (at less than 20 yds)
Best of Luck, Jeff
This timing I'm shooting if it's under 20. Right at Cnelk's dot looks just right to me
I usually like to shoot animals lower 1/3rd when broadside...but its better to shoot higher when facing to avoid bone.
Same with this bull, I put it right in the oval opening in the elks skeleton. Trying to shoot behind the shoulder is bad idea IMO...as you probably only catch one lung
Of course it has to be close, a layup shot you can place perfectly without giving the animal time to move.
Make sure your shooting a good broadhead and arrow if your taking that shot, no 300gr tipped with a 2"rage set ups. I took a very similar shot on a moose a few years ago, shot was 10 yards I missed my mark by a couple inches and hit the leg bone, fortunately I was shooting a QAD exodus and a fmj as the BH blew the bone into shards and I got 24"s of penatration
having no elk experience, I wouldn't, but I can't fault those who would. I'd wait for him to turn a bit more and hit him in the crease, 2/3 of the way down from the withers.
My shot placement would be sometime after he turned broadside... (Some of these home made bone structure diagrams are laughably inaccurate.)
About right there on the second angle.
Certainly there are people who could make either of those shots and both would be deadly if perfectly executed. But I really think that the vast majority of hunters should pass.
The problem is that in the excitement of the moment most people have a tough time executing a perfect shot. A target is one thing - a bull elk at spitting distance is another. It's pure speculation on my part, but I would venture to guess that a fairly high percentage of hits on elk are more than a few inches off of the intended mark. Broadside or quartering away, that still works. Dead bull. But on these angles there is a very small margin of error and the results of a misplaced arrow will not be good.
The average hunter has a natural tendency to subconsciously shy away from bone structure. Even on broadside animals it is very common to hear that the hit was "just a little far back". The shots presented here require hugging tight to the bone and that is very hard for most people to do.
I've killed a number of elk, but I'm still passing. I've made some perfect shots on elk in the past, but I've also had some that were off the mark a bit. All resulted in dead elk, but only because I had good shot angles to work with. With the angles presented in these scenarios I very likely I would have lost some bulls.
I know some of you can make these shots. You have the experience, anatomy knowledge, shooting skills, and nerves of steel with a bull in your face. But there are a lot of guys that read these threads that can't reliably do it and we should be careful to help them make the right decision. Nothing will haunt thier dreams worse that a wounded and unrecoverable bull.
"Nice Carcus, what condition was your BH in after this?
I just found out the exodus come in 125's now, KaBOom!"
Broadhead was undamaged, couple nicks in the blades, thats it!
I agree with you Whip. I think that most guys shouldn't be taking either of those shots.
There's so many reasons: Yardage estimation being off due to animal size, shakes associated with an elk coming in on the ground towards you, etc.
But in all honesty, I'd rather an easterner who's shooting his first elk take a 20 yard frontal than a 70 yard broadside shot.
I'd take a 10 yard frontal over a 30 yard broadside any day.
Obviously you folks have never thrown an axe through em.... =D
I still havent shot yet. Thanks Bill, glad youre here ! Gary S
Shot this bull at 30 yards. he went less then 30 yards and tipped over. This bull was positioned like picture number 2.
Apologies if this is answered on another thread...but...is there a decent 3D representation of elk vitals?
Similarly, whilst I have used fellow Bowsiters images [with their permission of course] to reproduce life-size broadside elk vitals, where can I find the same dimensioned images for frontal practice?
The photo is of a sixty yard shot with an ST Magnum, large yellow circle is 14", smaller circle is 7"
Many thanks in advance
By way of example...it'd be great to have something like this for frontal practice
I don't want to derail this elk thread, but I had the exact same angle on a bear from the ground on a 10 yard shot. The bear was dead in less than 5 seconds and went only 15 yds. That was my first experience with a "frontal" shot.
wannaB, nice shot. I assume that your picture shows the exit wound. Where was the entrance?
Mad_Angler that was actually the entrance hole. I shoot QAD Exodus broadheads. The broadhead was just under the skin on the opposite side. So no exit hole
M_A, I think you and I were both fooled by WanaB's pic. I thought the head was to the right but it's actually to the left. ha!
Using the dimensions I have taken from the broadside image, and using calculated matriculation and extrapolation [i.e. complete guesstimation!!!]...I offer this image for constructive discussion
[Apologies in advance; any errors and omissions excepted; all corrections greatly appreciated]
Yes Carcus' generalization on which broadhead not to use is spot on.....(heavy sarcasm) I love how the opinions on this forum fly around like biblical fact, too funny.
Maybe next time he should put (sarcasm) behind his obviously sarcastic statement.
Scoot: "The shoulder is farther forward than most think." I know where the bone structure lies and I would pass. Some seem to think that knowing the bone structure of an animal gives them free reign to take a shot no matter what position an animal is in. In fact, I believe knowing the bone structure of an elk (or other animal) allows me to better know when to pull the reigns back and wait for a better shot.
I think the majority of the shots identified above would hit the on-side lung and miss the off-side lung. That's not a shot I'm interested in. I'm not bad mouthing any who said they'd take the shot and I am not trying to sound "holier than though" here, I'm just giving my opinion and thoughts on this.
Thanks for starting the discussion and posting the pic, Bill!"
I completely agree with --- Scoot^^^_____ Great to have these discussions just to get guys familiar with, and thinking about, the anatomy of the animal and the shot, but I'm afraid it also promotes a false sense of confidence and un ethical shot selection. Like Scoot said, that Bull is at an angle that you are likely to only get one lung and that is a NO NO especially on Elk.
Yes I would take that shot.
