how heavy an arrow needed
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
I am shooting 62 lbs with 100 grain broadhead. how heavy arrow shaft would you recommend.
looking at easton bloodline which is 7 grains per inch is this too light
I always tried for around 500 grain total arrow weight but way smarter guys here than I am.
How heavy is your current arrow total now? Fletchings, nock, BH, shaft, footings, and all.
I am shooting carbon express terminator which are 11 grains per inch the total weight is around 450 grains
That arrow is fine for elk. Don't change.
At 62# I would shoot for a total arrow weight of 400-425 grains. That would be a very nice weight for you! The heavier up front the better but no need to exceed the total arrow weight!
For instance, I shoot the Victory VAP 350 spine arrows, I have near 200 grains upfront with insert & 100 grain head, my total weight is 425 grains. I do have a 27-1/2" draw though. I've put down a few bulls with this setup with all being pass throughs at 66#!
I do agree, 450 grains will work fine since you're already setup with it!
ElkNut1
Yeah, stick with what you've got and have been practicing with. Better weight for elk.
Get a properly spine fmj and your good to go, either a 340 or 400 depending on draw length
I jus made the switch from Axis 400s to FMJ 400s and my arrows are penetrating about six inches deeper into my Block target. That's only adding 34 gr. or so to my arrow, so a little more weight is helpful IMO.
That added penetration you're getting in your target comes more from the slick surface of the FMJ than from the 34gr Drycreek. Probably easier to pull out to aren't they!
Anything over 400 gr that flies perfectly out of your bow, with a really sharp broadhead on the end.
I could say "exactly 466" because that's how much mine weigh now, but that's only because that's how much they happen to weigh with a 125 gr. head and red weedeater string.
Do a search for an archery KE (kenetic energy) calculator. Put in the numbers and see what you get.
I prefer to shoot at least 70 KE for elk and more is better for more impact and penetration. I think my current set up is at 72 KE. I considered swapping to a heavier arrow but decided to stick with what I know.
If you are shooting a 30" arrow X 7 gr per inch plus a 100 gr broadhead it would be a little light for me personally.
But more important is to shoot what you shoot well, accurately, and are confident shooting. It is a bit late to change up your rig and get to that point.
I wodered about that too goat, but it's my first experience with FMJs, so really didn't know. I like them so far though.
I shoot 60@29. I have experimented with 450gr arrows and 500gr arrows into my rhinehart targets and 3/4 plywood. Penetration is virtually identical, however, those 500gr arrows are 8" low at 50yards.
I've also experimented with broadheads shot with those 450gr arrows into fresh cow shoulder blades. If you are concerned with penetration if bone is encountered, don't shoot 3 blades or mechanicals. 2, 2 with bleeders or single bevels is the way to go.
Your good to go And anything over 400 is good like jaquomo says. I shoot a 125 gr broad head at 60 lbs for a total of 475 gr
I agree with 400+. cut on contact broadhead
I agree with the mid 400's crowd! Seems most of the tv hunters are shooting way less and the lack of penetration shows on their shows.
I have always liked the 450-500 range. But this year my arrows are 430
They should be fine!
Seems like you are good to go. Mid 400s is a nice balance of speed and weight. Just watched Pete Shepley last night recommend a 450 grain arrow for elk hunting.
My upcoming feature on trad elk tactics in Traditional Bowhunter (Jan-Feb issue) recommends mid-400 grain arrows for trad guys too, as the best balance between accuracy (trajectory) and killing potential.
Cant wait for the Leatherwall to light up about THAT!
Wow Lou, the trad police will roast you on that article...lol
Lou, that's nothing short of sacriligeous! Can we watch the tar and feathering? OTOH, if you suggest an FOC of at least 30%, they might consider it wash! ;-)
I have had great luck with 670 grain arrows
E. Donnall Thomas's comment when we were discussing the article, "We sure killed a lot of animals before we even knew what FOC was.."
#1 IMO is an excellent shooting setup, if that means shooting a bit lighter than so be it.
Me, I like the 550-600 gr total weight if I can make it all work
I have killed a pile of elk (and lots of other big critters - moose, caribou, bears) with 425-450 grain carbon arrows and 3-blade snuffers using a 60# longbow... Lightened up my heavy wood arrow setups years ago and switched to 3-blade broadheads. My blood trails shortened and I killed more stuff.
You will have no problem.
You only NEED the ke developed by the bow poundage required by law driving the minimum grains per inch arrow recommended by the bow manufacture.
What you should want is the maximum bow poundage that is comfortable to draw even when you are cold, shooting the lightest / fastest arrow that keeps your bow quiet, yet heavy enough to maximize bow efficiency (ke) without sacrificing trajectory.
In other words it's a bunch of tradeoffs that only you can decide. You decide what trajectory you can tolerate based on your ability to judge distance and the expected range. You decide what is too loud for your bow. You decide if a little extra ke is need for a big mechanical BH.
Most people compromise in the middle, about 400 - 500, but you are not most people. You are a specific case. Base your decision on your specific circumstances. Then have confidence in that decision.
Your fine. I always shoot a 420grn total weight FMJ. I've never any problem killing an elk, and I've taken quite a few.
I shoot the same poundage as you and my arrow weight is 471 for my 62# compound and 510 for my 53# recurve bow.
Have fun and good luck.
my best, Paul
Actually Lou, over there it would be tar and vaneing..... pitch forks however are limited to 3 tines.....
Always preferred in the 450 range, shooting 460 right now out of 70lbs and my new arrows are going to come in around 465-470 I think.
Tons of elk killed with 400 grains. What they said up there ^^^^^
Get'em Lou!!!!! I might just buy that edition. i swore that magazine off a while ago due to it's biased approach to weapons choice. But, for that article I'll make an exception.
I shot in a local shoot today. I shot a 60 pound bow, drawn to touch over 28 inches. I was shooting a 500 grain wood arrow. I shot 4 rounds with different groups. Most of the trad guys were shooting heavy arrow setups their arrow were so easy to pull out. Mine were several inches deeper into the targets. And, most of the heavy arrow group were shooting smaller tipped arrows
There is a balance. For today's bows, a mid 400-500 grain arrow is dynamite.
God Bless fella's
Have seen enough examples over the years that have always pointed me to at least 450. I am at 469. The difference of 400 and 469 on a whitetail shoulder is devasting as you can knock one over with a heavier arrow! Elk are not whitetail, but weight is weight and any extra help on an elk can make a big difference.
Yep, just about any arrow weight works....even better if it has perfect arrow flight.
I will take an arrow that gives me a quiet bow over an arrow with a little better trajectory...the added bonus being better penetration and easier tuning.
But Lou....what bow weight are you saying "mid-400 grain arrows...as the best balance between accuracy (trajectory) and killing potential." ?
I draw the line at 9gpp minimum
Heavier arrow is better, 500/550 gr. you go to lite than your penetration will suffer.
Hmmm.like compound shooters aren't negatively biased when it comes to the compound/traditional bows and related topics.
Sapcut, we've plowed this field before, but I don't think bow weight matters nearly as much as many other factors, including tuning, accuracy, and a sharp broadhead. One of my moose hunters last year killed hers with a 45 lb longbow and a 450 grain arrow
We can go overboard in either direction. I'm referring to balance for the majority of bowhunters. Look at this (and other threads) and see what arrow weights the guys use who kill dozens of elk. I used @450 whether shooting longbows and recurves from 53-57#, or with compounds with heavier draw weights.
I am not debating that 450 is not a killable weight from a 50# bow but I am debating its not the best from a 70# bow.
Like I may have mentioned to you before I am dropping my elk arrow weight about 100 grains this year to a bit over 700 gr. for the reasons you mentioned...a flatter trajectory with plenty of killing potential.
If that heavy of an arrow is what you shoot most accurately at unknown distances with the first shot every time, by all means go for it.
I like arrows between 600 and 675 grains overall. They just work best for me. For elk I am using the 675s, but I am also shooting a homemade osage self bow and speed does not go up much when arrow weight goes down with those anyway.
Just be sure you are over 400 grains, preferably above the 420 mark. Shoot some ACC 3-49s you will hit it easy using a 50 grain Easton HP brass insert...
I am shooting a couple grains over 500 now and flight and accuracy are great.
Like hitting them with a sledgehammer.
Sapcut's Link
How much difference does increased weight really make on trajectory? I guess it depends on how much the weight is increased.
Then again if your you're using zeroed in sights.....
I am shooting Portoxford ceder, 31.5" with 145g head, total weight 638g . at 57# draw compleat pass thru's every time
Zeroed-in sights only matter if you have time to use a rangefinder and the elk is standing still. Where trajectory comes into play is at unknown distances. This is especially important for trad shooters.
Once again, look at what the highly successful elk slayers use. There is a reason why we've almost all settled on something between 420-500 grains.
Like I said, I'm not debating that many animals have died to a 450 grain arrow but it appears to me that "settling" on 450 grains has a whole lot to do with first settling on the 50# bow weight as being a big part of the "reason".
If you could shoot 700 grains with the same trajectory as 450-500...you would do it.
Sure would. I'd shoot 1000 grain arrows if that was the case. But I can't, and no trad guy I've ever seen, no matter how heavy the bow, can do it either. Compound shooters don't need to shoot that heavy of an arrow, nor is it the most efficient out of a modern compound bow.
I don't recall any of the experienced elk hunters on this thread advocating a 50# bow. Where did that come from? Most of us are shooting in the 60s or around 70# with compounds. I used to shoot trad bows in the upper 60's until I figured out it wasn't necessary for anything in North America.
Just saw this thread today and assumed it was coupled with the texas heart shot and elk picture. Bummer.
I was recerring to this...."We can go overboard in either direction. I'm referring to balance for the majority of bowhunters. Look at this (and other threads) and see what arrow weights the guys use who kill dozens of elk. I used @450 whether shooting longbows and recurves from 53-57#, or with compounds with heavier draw weights."
Sure- I dropped down to the mid-50s with stickbows because I figured out I'm much more accurate under hunting conditions than I was with 68#. But that has nothing to do with the balance of arrow weight vs. trajectory vs accuracy vs killing ability. Some of the proven elk killers on this thread are shooting similar weight arrows with much heavier draw bows than I shoot.
I am now shooting a 50# longbow instead of my 56# recurves, and after a lot of experimenting, I've settled on a 442 grain carbon shaft. I've yet to see dramatic increases in penetration when using shafts over 500 grains that justifies the decrease in trajectory. Broadhead shape and design plays a huge role in penetration when shooting lower weight bows. I hate an arrow with high foc, love arrow speed. This is my first year shooting a lighter draw weight stickbow, and have the utmost confidence in my arrow/broadhead combo.
"My upcoming feature on trad elk tactics in Traditional Bowhunter (Jan-Feb issue) recommends mid-400 grain arrows for trad guys too, as the best balance between accuracy (trajectory) and killing potential. Cant wait for the Leatherwall to light up about THAT!"
I don't think you have to wait. LOL!
Monty Browning shoots everything with a 1200 grain arrow.........
Lou next time I see u I'm buying you a beer, after that article will make it a bottle hahaha. people just can't hand those weights. We all know we need a 800 grain arrow w/ 30 percent FOC to shoot through a deer, elk we all need that or more lol. I stopped reading the trad sites to many "experts" that don't shoot anything but need to comment because of ashbys work.
>>"We can go overboard in either direction. I'm referring to balance for the majority of bowhunters. Look at this (and other threads) and see what arrow weights the guys use who kill dozens of elk. I used @450 whether shooting longbows and recurves from 53-57#, or with compounds with heavier draw weights."
Jaquomo: I've used that weight in similar weight trad bows but went up a bit just to quiet things down. 8-9gr per pound seems to be a little noisier to me than 9+.
Lost Arra, I believe every bow is different with noise. IMO brace height and string slap on the tips is bigger factor than a grain of arrow weight, but every bow is different. I can't tell any difference in light vs heavy arrows with longbows. Serving the end of the recurve bowstrings with acrylic yarn will quiet it down significantly.
It's up to the individual hunter where they want to accept tradeoffs. There isn't one trad shooter in 1000 who can hit an 8" pie plate with the first shot every time at unknown distances out to 25 yards with a 1200 grain fiberglass fish arrow like Monty Browning sometimes uses.
Telling folks a 400gr- ish arrow works is fine.....but to say, 'thats all you need' is not telling the whole story. Then taking it further, insinuating a guy using a heavier arrow is silly- its a waste....just shows a lack of understanding.
In the real world, shot placement can go wrong...we see it all the time..... elk running away with light arrows hanging out of them either on youTube or in person.
I'm not going back to lighter arrows when animals are involved- for 3d yes. Heavier arrows have so many advantages with a significantly quieter bow being one big factor, IMO- with the only disadvantage being a slight loss in trajectory...its a no brainer for me.
To lots of folks. fast and flat still trumps anything else. That seems to be the deciding factor. Regardless of what the arrow weight ends up being or the good or bad results when said weight hits....the flat trajectory appears to be most important ingredient when choosing an arrow.
Sapcut and Beendare, I agree with both your last posts. My point has been that it's all about each individual finding a balance he can live with which maximizes his own confidence and abilities in each aspect of the overall hunting package. Some people like to be at either end of the bell curve for various reasons.
Some will sacrifice accuracy for a small gain in KE, while others sacrifice possible penetration for longer range accuracy. Beendare honestly notes that he prefers a lighter, flatter arrow where pure accuracy matters in 3-D. This goes for bow weight as well as arrow weight. I know guys who are over-bowed and can't draw without skywalking because they somehow believe they need all that weight. Trad guys who can't get to full draw and develop snap-shooting habits. The little 60+ year old 5' tall gal I was with last year who slew the moose quickly with a 45 lb longbow and a 450 grain arrow was evidence enough than balance is the key to consistent animal-killing success.
In my own case, I've never killed an animal at a "known" distance before I shot, whether with longbow, recurve, or compound. I only know if it's a makeable shot and do I feel it, or not. I don't know the distance until afterward, and have been surprised a few times..
Yeah, I like a fast and flat arrow for 3D;
In regards to 3D....
1) I don't care how far the arrow sticks in the target,
2) I never use a RF so a couple yards can make a difference
3) 1/2" can be the difference between a 12 and a 10 [or in my case an 8 or a 5- grin
4) I don't care about the unnaturally loud game spooking slap of my bow when it slings my light arrow out there on the target range
5) I don't worry about form issues as I always have time to make adjustments...eve let down if need be...that foam ain't going anywhere
6) I don't worry about my BH flight being critical as FP's are very forgiving on the target range
&) I don't worry about foam animals shifting and poor penetration costs me
I feel the exact opposite in every case above for hunting arrow. I lose 1 1/2" trajectory in 40 yds with 500gr vs 420gr..not a deal breaker for me...
Heck, this year I had to shoot my hunting setup for 3D anyway...my bad elbow didn't like the excess vibration from my light 3D arrows.
I really have no problem with light hunting arrows...as long as the guy/gal understands the limitations of their setup.
500 is a good all-around weight for hunting. Mine just happen to weigh 466 with red weedeater string, and about 478 with a lighted nock.
I do see a pretty significant trajectory impact with 600 grains though. Not quite as much with the 60# compound as with a 53# recurve, but enough that I wouldn't have confidence hunting with 600+ except for moose, which around here can be shot at virtually point-blank range.
I think it's great for guys who can and do and are honestly accurate at unknown distances with heavy arrows. I'm not one of those guys. I want to hit what I'm shooting where I want to hit it, and not have to think about how far it is.
I would gladly weigh in on this (no pun intended) but I never shot an elk, never hunted an elk, but plan to some day which is why I have 'settled" on an optimal weight of 460 grains about a year ago in case I ever do Elk (or moose). Things sure seem quieter and tune better too out of a 65# Matthews z7 since I upped it all. The BH stuck in the ground on all my whitetails ever since, but then again they did when it all weighed 360 grains too. Mainly - I just wanted to post and congratulate Lou on his article. One of my bow hunting idols... Keep it going Jaquomo, and many more successes in the field and in print.
Thanks for that, Jack. I don't know, the Trad Vigilantes may burn a cross in my front yard. I took trad guys to task for all the arguing and bickering on forums over insignificant nonsense. Also for insisting that "such and such" arrow weight, bow weight, KE, whatever, is required to kill elk by guys who maybe killed a couple in their lives, or worse yet, read somewhere what somebody else insisted is required. I didn't recommend any equipment, arrow weight, bow weight for elk, only stated what my partner and I have used to kill a whole lot of elk, and left it at that.
It's going to be in the Feb-March issue of TBM, and my feature on the moose hunting couple will be in the June-July issue.
"I took trad guys to task for all the arguing and bickering on forums over insignificant nonsense. Also for insisting that "such and such" arrow weight, bow weight, KE, whatever, is required to kill elk..."
Lou, seriously, really? Is that what trad guys really said? Discussed something that YOUR opinion says is insignificant nonsense ? "Insisted" that anything (other than a field point) "is required to kill elk" ?
Come on Lou. Is that really what was said ?
Sapcut, no need to turn this into a LW bicker-fest. You know what goes on in the trad forums. Jason just alluded to it a few posts ago on this thread. Dr. Don Thomas agreed with me and my perspective, and he is as "trad" as it gets. My opinions are based on nearly 70 dead elk between my partner and myself. Nothing more.
And yes, I believe arguing over a few grains of arrow weight, a few percent FOC, a few pounds of KE, COC vs other types of great quality fixed-blade broadheads, single bevel, blade angle, wood vs aluminum vs carbon, blah, blah, blah is insignificant nonsense in the grand scheme of bowhunting, especially when the arguers are mostly wannabe elk hunters.
You'll understand when you read the article.
Ok. Not bickering here and yes I do value your opinions based on your experience as I do others. I am well aware of the conversations on the LW included the 99% that are flawed due to serious bias.
It is just a pet peeve of mine when thoughts are perhaps exaggerated....As in, to be short and sweet, What it takes to make an elk dead VERSUS a particular broadhead that will increase your chances of breaking bone better than another.
I do look forward to reading the article and soaking up more knowledge that I certainly don't currently have.
Sure, all I know is what I know from killing a hell of a lot of elk. This thread has been extremely civil and thoughtful considering the potentially controversial topic. There are a bunch of world-class elk hunters weighing in on this thread, most with very similar perspectives.
If someone were to post a thread on the LW entitled, "53#, 470 grain arrow, 4 blade Muzzy for elk?", it might break the Bowsite. All the East Coast tree-climber, elk hunting wannabes who have maybe been on a hunt or two would go ape-spit about why everything about that setup is wrong, wrong, wrong. Except.....
"What it takes to make an elk dead VERSUS a particular broadhead that will increase your chances of breaking bone better than another." This is EXACTLY what I'm referring to as insignificant nonsense in the grand scheme.
Lou,
I can't begin to tell you how much I'm looking forward to reading your article.
Beedare: "Yeah, I like a fast and flat arrow for 3D; 1) I don't care how far the arrow sticks in the target,
2) I never use a RF so a couple yards can make a difference
3) 1/2" can be the difference between a 12 and a 10 [or in my case an 8 or a 5- grin
4) I don't care about the unnaturally loud game spooking slap of my bow when it slings my light arrow out there on the target range
5) I don't worry about form issues as I always have time to make adjustments...eve let down if need be...that foam ain't going anywhere
6) I don't worry about my BH flight being critical as FP's are very forgiving on the target range
&) I don't worry about foam animals shifting and poor penetration costs me
I feel the exact opposite in every case above for hunting arrow. I lose 1 1/2" trajectory in 40 yds with 500gr vs 420gr..not a deal breaker for me...
Heck, this year I had to shoot my hunting setup for 3D anyway...my bad elbow didn't like the excess vibration from my light 3D arrows.
I really have no problem with light hunting arrows...as long as the guy/gal understands the limitations of their setup"
Completely agree on every single point^^^
Hard to be to heavy for hunting...
ohiohunter, I seem to recall that Purdue or one of the other engineer-types had some calculations on that factor on one of the other 482 threads on this topic. There was a significant loss of energy at distance with lighter arrows, just don't remember the details or at what point it began to matter.
It has been established that faster objects slow down at a faster rate. This is determined by a calculation with known factors, some that can only be obtained from a wind tunnel.
For arrows within 10% weight of each other, the deceleration affecting downrange energy is not enough to worry about. Larger weight differences it could, I don't know. Farther distances it could, I don't know.
I shot two arrow configurations for a hunting setup use at different yardages and weight (400 vs. 430) with a chronograph setup about 1 yard in front of a target. I started to see a higher decelration rate between 30 and 40 yds than anything from 10 to 30 for each arrow. For these two arrows, it doesn't matter enough to lay awake at night.
So, I would surmise the farther out you get, the steeper the curve of deceleration will be for an arrow.
Well of course there is wide range of what works.
Many guys shooting light arrows would be shocked at how insignificant the trajectory loss is with 50-100gr in addl weight.
I think most guys put the heavier arrow in and shoot with their pins adjusted for the light arrow....then freak....as they are starting the heavy arrow on a lower path. When in reality if you compare trajectories correctly- its not much.
To better compare trajectories; sight in the heavy arrow at 40yds...or whatever your avg shot distance is [closer is REALLY insignificant]...then shoot your light arrow...for me the difference is 1 1/2" @ 40yds, 60# Hoyt Spyder.
..... or just refer to the video link I posted several posts ago
Ohio
It's on my computer at home, I'll look this evening. Can't remember exactly, but I want to say a total of 20-25 fps from bow to target at 40 yds. Still plenty to punch through something.
Bow chronos at 309 and 298 respectively.
Here is some data I posted that relates arrow weight to KE from my bow. The data is for 5 yards only. If this is too small to read, I'll try to zoom in and repost.
I've shot through 2 elk with 2 these arrows. One with the Carbon Express loaded with a 145 grain Phat Head and one with the Cabelas SST tipped with a 100 grain SteelHead mechanical. Note I'm only shooting with about 43 foot-pounds of KE at the bow. Range of the elk was about 20 yards..
Penetration data is somewhat bogus because the different weight points are not the same diameter and I did not re-tune for each arrow and arrow weight tested. All data is an average of 5 shots.
I'm pretty much in agreement with the majority of these posts. Anything over 400 gr with good trajectory will be fine. I'm personally at 489 gr, which just worked out that way given my draw, 125 gr tip, wrap, and vanes. I'll second what Beendare said, you'll be surprised the little difference in trajectory with adding 50-100 gr. Related to that I lowered my poundage from 70 to around 65 and it had little difference in trajectory, but my groups are much better at the lower poundage even though I can easily pull more, I just don't shoot very well at the higher poundage.
I remember this discussed in an article once upon a time. The author said we had the ability to fire a BB fast enough to match the KE of a .458 Win mag. Now witch one do you want to face down an elephant with? The heavier the better as far as I'm concerned.
Heavier is better....IF...you can get said heavy to agree and line up with your already written in stone flat and fast flight pattern preferences.
If heavier is better, then explain to me why the VAPs and GT Kinetics out penetrate other arrow setups in the videos done by a Bob Fromme and Jim Burnsworth, along with a few other that are now shooting the VAPs or Kinetics...
Buglmin, simple.. they are heavy shafts.
I am not aware of the videos but what I do see is that the two shafts you mention are fairly heavy and small diameter.
Sapcut, you won't be interest. They are shooting into foam and plywood.
"All the East Coast tree-climber, elk hunting wannabes who have maybe been on a hunt or two"
Ouch!
Correct...pretty much irrelevant unless I was hunting foamy plywood.
"Buglmin, simple.. they are heavy shafts."
VAPs are one of the lightest shafts on the market.
Not entirely. Vap camo 300 9.4gr/in
GT kinetic 300 10.4gr/in
^I call that heavy enough.
Black eagle 300 8.5gr/in.... so this one should penetrate the best????
Actually shaft weight is only a part of it. I shoot GT Ultralight 300s that are 8.5 gpi but most of my arrows are 800+ grains with a few newcomers around 700.
Just depends on the arrow architect.
Weighed mine last night. Grizzly Stick Momentum 330's - 475 grains at 28 1/4" plus 125 grain Muzzy Phantoms for a total of 600. 5 inch feathers. Same arrow flies great out of my 55 pound recurve and 58 pound compound. Quiet and forgiving albeit fairly slow. Just under 240 fps from compound and about 170 from my recurve. No idea if its better or worse than lighter setups but I love them.