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On the third day of the hunt (Sept 3rd) one of my partners was set up (about 7:00AM) in area where we had been seeing a few elk and hearing a few bugles. About 7:30 he hears a lot of barking and strange whining type sounds coming from the creek bottom about 200 yards below him.

2 cows with 3 calves go running (not full out running, but moving along pretty good - spooked) up past him at about 30 or so yards - he cow called but they kept right on going.

Couple minutes later a rag horn 5 x 5 comes from the same general area but stays in some thick stuff - no shot. Right behind him was a big 6 x 6 - he came right up to about 25 yards but stayed behind some trees - full draw, but again, no shot. Then spooked and took off with a bunch of elk that were still out of sight but within about 30 yards.

Right then 2 big white dogs (sheep herders dogs) come running up from the same bottom so my partner shouts at them to call them off the elk.

One of the dogs turns and comes right at him up to about 10 FEET away, bares it's teeth and begins growling, barking and snarling at him, hair standing up on his back, with drool coming out of both sides of his mouth. Now I'm not one to shoot someone's dog(s) but I interrupted his story right there and told him my point of aim and release would have been right below the dogs chin - and instantly!

I asked him why he didn't shoot - he said he would have felt guilty.

I told him that I'm quite sure this isn't the first time these dogs have chased elk (deer, etc..) and from my point of view - NO GUILT WHAT-SO-EVER ... DEAD MUT!

A letter to the WY Game & Fish is being sent.

**The sheep herder moved in and set up his camp about 150 yards from us on our second day there (2 days before season). We were going to confront him about his dogs but he was gone when we all got back to camp.

The other dog stayed back about 10 feet behind the aggressive one and just barked. Both dogs held their ground as my partner slowly backed out and left the area.

If you were in that situation, would you have shot the dog(s)?

--Bill

The dogs can be a pain and very agressive but in my case it was always a bluff. I wouldnt hesistate to kill one if needed, but that would be a hassle and could screw up some elk hunting time sorting things out with the herder, rancher or sheriff. Having been confronted by them a few times, i expect it to end with both of us in one piece.

As annoying as it can be, a part me also knows that when they are gone, another piece of the West will have disappeared.

There are breed to protect the "flock" and patrol their area to encounter and chase away intruders.

I would not have shot the dog unless he was in my face and very close.

Your buddy made the correct choice.

my best, Paul

Sheep herders, with an active lease, know that it is illegal for the dogs to harass game. Yes they can harass and even kill predators. That is legal.

Open range on public land is an entirely different matter. The public has every right to enjoy and experience public land without threat of bodily harm.

If I have to draw my sidearm, they are down. It is perfectly legal.

I know an outfitter that killed two of them because they were chasing elk. Really pissed me off because he is constantly complaining about the elk eating his alfalfa. I lost all respect for him.

What were the dogs doing with the elk? Trying to herd them?

If you just start talking to them in a nice sweet voice, they go from baring their teeth, to wagging their tails.

Works every time.

Best of Luck, Jeff

We returned to camp to find sheep everywhere. Driving the sheep out of camp brought on the dogs but they were friendly.

We packed up and moved soon after this.

Sheep and cattle were the reason I quit hunting that area.

Cattle flattened the tents.

The laws on public land are just as valid. Any animal showing aggression, in any way, is good enough reason. That's what county sheriffs are for.

I've run into plenty of sheep dogs and they come in wagging their tails and looking for food. lol A dog knows the difference between a predator and a human. They are very well trained. Just like a bomb dog isn't going to signal on a Twinkie in someone's luggage.

Farm dogs rarely, if ever, leave the property. Stray cats and dogs are generally dispatched by farmers and ranchers. They know that primal instincts will take over if it's hungry. Even a beloved pet dog will feed on its owner's body in a pinch.

I wouldn't want to see anyone loose a beloved pet. :(

I would not shoot one of them unless they bit first and could not be driven away. Thats just my way.

A question I have is how these dogs are fed? When we hunt, we find sheep remains here & there. There is never enough left to determine how it died. Does the sheep herder bring food to them each day or what? The ones I have petted were very skinny.

>>>>-------->

You have zero chance if it attacks. Its way too fast. I've been attacked before. Not by a sheep dog but in general. The problem with seeing everything in slow motion is that you are also moving in slow motion.

I had a situation a couple years ago in MT - walked by a guys camp and he had an enormous (175lbs?) attack dog on a chain by his camper. Looked like a pitbull on steroid - maybe an English mastiff. Thing saw me and took off running straight at me snarling as it went. Hit the end of the chain so hard it completely flipped over backwards. I had my holster unclipped and hand on my pistol, but the chain held. About that time a skinny skanky looking skinny dude came out of the trailer. He and I didn't say a word, but I kept my hand on the gun. Figured the guy was a methcooker and had the dog to guard his setup.

Was real glad the chain held - otherwise I had a bad feeling I was going to have to shoot the dog and then maybe the owner. Bottom line, if a dog is moving in on you it goes down real fast and you really don't have time to think, just react. If a dog is in my grill and acting aggressive but not moving at me I'd try yelling or pretending I was picking up a rock to throw, even if one wasn't there (a trick taught me by someone who lived in South America where dogs do eat people - the fake rock trick works). Two dogs are much worse if they are working in tandem because you can't keep an eye on both of them.

And I wouldn't let most kids play with my dogs. Not unsupervised anyway, unless I knew the kids pretty well. So what's your point?

I've run into sheep dogs every now and then in the mountains, and never had an issue. I've also seen people react totally inappropriately to dogs, creating a problem that didn't exist. The dogs I have seen actually attack - very few - did so WITHOUT any warning. Just like most animal encounters, the first sign of a real attack is when they're already on you.

If someone's kid came after me and threatened with imminent danger, I would expect to defend myself. If that same kid inflicted harm through contact, that kid would be charged with assault and battery.

Why would someone's dog expect anything less. I have a wife and kids at home and their interests always come first. At ten feet and bearing teeth in attack mode, I would have probably shot it.

I've also seen as much variation in how different people react to dogs as how dogs react to people. I wouldn't try to cuddle a strange dog that was snarling or growling or even had his ears laid back. On the other hand, I wouldn't be afraid of a dog romping in my direction, tongue lolling and tail wagging. But I have seen others do both.

Since I've started carrying bear spray I might be less reluctant to give them a squirt or two, however. There's no long-lasting damage with pepper spray.

All that i have come across are very protective of the sheep. Thats there job, try not to walk in middle of the group. If you see them just start talking to them and they calm down real quick.

Tip Most of the herders are from south America where i hunt. Its a very broken spanish. And they dont speak english. But these guys have just spent the summer in the mountains and they know where elk are. Bring a map and a bottle of whisky and. They speak enough. You hand them them the bottle, and ask where elk are on map. They will show you

Any dog big enough to knock you off your feet can put you in a world of hurt. My cousin was delivering a shed about 2 months ago and was out in the yard with the landowner looking at where to place the shed when the owner's pitbull blindsided him and knocked him off his feet. Luckily the owner pulled the dog off and all he had was 2 punctures on his upper arm. The owner offered to take him to the ER and report everything but he didn't want to deal with the hassle and just left it. He just said that he's never been scared of dogs (he lives and breathes coonhounds) but that if the owner hadn't been there he would've been in serious trouble. The big difference I see here is that the sheepdog is likely to have had much better training than a random persons yard dog. However, it's still an animal and like humans they can do stupid things that defy logic and training. Just realize that they are physically capable of causing you bodily harm even if most would never try.

These same 2 dogs were in our camp just the day before, sniffing around, doing what dogs do. I told the dog to "go on, get" and the one put it's tail between its legs and walked away. The other one just stood there looking at me showing no emotion - good or bad - and after a few seconds turned and followed the other one.

The fact they were chasing the elk irritates the hell out of me, but NOT to the point of shooting them.

And I understand the idea of a persons pet being almost as important to them as their own kids. This was NOT a persons pet - it is a working dog, and again, doing what it was trained to do.

I've had some bad experiences as far as being bitten by dogs - I certainly didn't enjoy it and definitely will not allow it to happen again, if I can help it.

I first said I would have shot that dog in a heart beat, (and the situation that my partner explained, I would have) now after reading some of the comments, if something like this happens to me I'll have my handgun out and pointed but will hesitate on pulling the trigger until the last possible instant.

BUT THE SHEEP HERDER (NO HABLA - BE DAMNED) HE WILL GET AN EAR FULL!!!!

I had my other hand on an arrow in the quiver, and if bitten, and ONLY if bitten, would have resorted to defending myself by stabbing them. While I don't like their aggressive posture and demeanor, this happens to me typically once or twice a year in different areas I hunt, and I've never had a problem. After enough years in the mountains and a few encounters you realize it is part of hunting out west. These are not wild dogs, but highly trained guard dogs doing their job.

Those of you who want to talk tough on the internet and shoot dogs that are 10 feet away will likely spend more time in a court room and talking to officers than I desire. A little maturity and common sense can go a long way.

Your buddy did the right thing by taking no action towards the dogs.

Bill

If you feel threatened by an animal and you act in defense, a court would do very, very little.

It's not tough talk, and maturity as little to nothing to do with it.

Last year I had just left my house with our little 30lb mutt for a hike in nearby forest. About 50 yards from my gate I noticed the neighbors pit bull come out of the trees alone about 30 yards away and then take off in a dead run for us. I had pepper spray in my holster instead of my gun and just got it out as the pit reached us but the pit didn't care about me and was trying to get our mutt. I managed to get off a half spray at the pit and he immediately took off for his home.

I talked to the neighbor the next day about their dog and they said it was a rescue that they were taking to numerous classes to socialize it. They're good people with good intentions but I told them that sometimes I carry something stronger than pepper spray and to make sure the pit doesn't get out again because I have a wife and two young kids who might not be able to deal with that Pit. The funny thing was my Pyr's could see the whole incident with the Pit from inside our fence and we're just going nuts trying to get out come to the rescue. I doubt I would have been able to get them off of that Pit until there was nothing left of him.

I for one don't think of this as a animal rights discussion. I think of it as hey you better know what you are in store for hunting out west, it is the WEST not the the EAST.

BTW, I own two dogs and love them.

So, why is Law Enforcement entitled to defend themselves but civilians (hunters) are not, or is it just a natural reaction to defend yourself as an innate response to survival?

Dogs are animals. The sheep hearder is responsible for his dog (property) while on public land. That's all there is to it.

From the description given, these dogs were simply doing their job. They view elk, moose and deer no differently than a coyote. They're going to chase it off and continue to chase until they're assured the flock is safe. They will also show the same defensive aggression towards humans should we approach the flock. That's what they're trained to do.

The sheep are only entitled to the grass. That is all. Its not hard for a hunter or hiker to be walking the game trail and suddenly finding themselves in the middle of a herd of sheep. Which is what happened to me. The sheep dog just came up to me and was as calm as can be. He did a couple of circles around me and wandered off.

I believe that is training. Showing aggression to a hunter or hiker for exercising their right to traverse the land is subject to scrutiny. The herd only has grazing rights. Nothing more.

Special note: If there are sheep in your area, DO NOT drink any of the stream water without purification practices. Giardia is carried by sheep. If you purchased some of the original Lifestaws, they did not remove the Giardia lamblia. If you have a more recent one it removes 99.9%. Use only in an emergency. Sheep are quite nasty.

I've heard people say anyone who talks of protecting themselves was just talking tough. I'll say get your rear end in the woods and have a couple"good dogs" decide you are going to be dinner. See what you think about how innocent Rover is then. It isn't tough talk. It is what it is. A dog got out of line and a person decided their interests were more important than the dogs. Simple enough.

I've been around these dogs described. I've had them get aggressive. I've had to talk to them to calm them down. They meant no harm to me once they knew what I was and that I offered no harm. But, to insist they have to bite in order to warrant your defense is ignorant. These dogs if intent on immobilizing the threat, will kill you quickly. They are huge. And have a pack mentality. Once one gets on you, the others are likely to follow suit. I'm not about to willingly allow that because it equals death. You can if you want. I won't and don't mind if that bothers you. Keep your dand dog under control and it won't be a problem. Remember, hunters have as much right to be on public property as any herd dog. It isn't unreasonable to expect the dog to act as appropriate as the Hunter.

When/if they are presenting you harm, they need to be dealt with as such. Just like a human.

As far as dogs running game. That pi$$es us all off. The proper response is to report them, with photos if possible (who doesn't have some type of camera with them?). I know of no place where that isn't illegal, except in some backwoods southern states where they run deer with dogs.

With all the anecdotal evidence given here, not one recounts a herd dog in the backcountry actually attacking anyone. The only thing I worry about at all is if I encounter one when accompanied by my own dogs. That can be a much more dangerous situation. If a dog is going to be mauled or killed, I will do all I can to make sure it's not my dog.

As for law enforcement; that has been addressed recently in Colorado, after too many instances of trigger happy LEOs killing dogs unnecessarily while investigating on private property. And in the instance cited above, all he did is prepare for the worst. No weapon was actually deployed.

There is very good reason to be very cautious around them.

http://www.denverpost.com/2014/08/24/guard-dogs-continue-to-frighten-hikers-on-high-mountain-trails/

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/02/10/colorado-mountain-bike-dog-attack-suit-settled-for-1-million/

http://www.westword.com/news/dog-attack-bicyclist-renee-legro-mauled-for-twenty-minutes-sues-sheep-herders-5821289

This is the very reason I carry a Glock now when bow hunting, I wouldn’t hesitate 1 second to shoot one if I felt it was going to bite me.

There are dead people and people chewed up that would agree as well.

The other two were the same attack, so you only get credit for one actual attack cited over decades, and that attack happened back in '08. It's also complicated by the fact that the dogs' owners were previously cited for having dangerous dogs. Clearly a people problem not a dog problem. Also the dog attacked a bike rider. Just shows good common sense on the dog's part to me. Just kidding. You also should ALWAYS be cautious around any animal you don't know personally. That's not justification for shooting them.

I am curious about one thing though. The rules in a wilderness area are totally unfair. In most, it's illegal to have a dog off leash, even for the purpose of legal hunting. Clearly a violation of our rights to enjoy public land. However, it seems that sheep owners are exempt from this law. I sure wish sporting dog associations would take up this inequity. A hunting dog under direct supervision is sure less of a potential threat to wildlife and other users (the reasons posted for the law) than a largely unsupervised guard dog.

I would not want to shoot someone's domestic canine, but would in a heartbeat if I felt it was warrented. I will not wait to see what happens, because it could all be over in the blink of an eye for you.

And, I do live out west and have my entire life, so no "Eastern" mindset here. Dog owners have a responsibility and accountability, no matter what and no matter what language they can't speak.

There are also laws that protect hunters from being harrassed as well. It would end up turning into a pissing match in court. Granted, no harm came to the dog in camp I referenced above, but the protect yourself instinct is there regardless.

Yes, many of the sheep herders don't speak much, if any, English. What many on here don't realize is that many of the herders are actually brought here by their employers from South America (I mostly run into Peruvian herders) because of the lack of people willing to spend the months on end tending the sheep alone or know how to do it. During our fall and winter (spring and fall south of the equator) most of the herders are back in their countries of origin tending the sheep there. I honestly like knowing that sheep have been in the general area I hunt, as it more often than not means that predators have been causing issues with them through out the summer, and government trappers have been in to deal with the issues.

Claiming they were just doing what they were bred to do is true, but no excuse for not being properly trained to control or put limits on their natural instincts. There may be no way for the sheepherder to control his dogs all over the side of a mountain, but that's his problem.

The sheepherder would not have a legal leg to stand on. If a person can shoot another human if they feel their life was in danger, then even more so for a dog.

(Note: none of the above applies to police dogs, they enjoy near human status.)

Its like talking with some with ccw permits, when and what they think they can pull their gun out

Well they can't, in either case. There's much more to a defense of using lethal force. And it's worth noting that the DEFENDANT is the one who used it.

The difference in a ccw case and human confrontation is humans have rights granted under the Constitution and humams have the ability to reason.

Animals just do what they do, violently sometimes, sometimes not. Who is willing to gamble? In the situatiom painted at the beginning, you would not be able to react fast enough with a bow if it were to go south. That decision would have to be made ahead of time.

Police as well as average citizens reserve the same rights in this.

If you think its a threat per that definition...you can wack it. There are limitations on private property of course. If you are going to someone's door and a dog comes running around the house and attacks you, you may kill it in any manner you please.

If there are attack dogs, the property MUST be properly labeled with readable warning signs. Counties and Parishes of course may have different laws. I am only citing Colorado.

Dogs are not humans an humans are not dogs.

And if you do it with a firearm, under CO law, with gunfire at my front door, I would be justified in returning fire. Just saying.

Part of hunting of using public ground is understanding and respecting other user groups of the land. If you don't respect the sheep because of the guard animal because of the guard animal in with them, eventually something bad will happen. Will you be able to sue somebody over it or justifiably kill the dog, probably. I view those dogs no more responsible for coming after someone in their flock than I do a sow that comes after a person for getting in between her and her cubs. Both are cases of an animal protecting it's own, and both require you to be in the wrong place. The only difference is people are use to seeing a Pyrenees as a big white fluffy pet. In the mountains, treat them as though they're their to hurt you and leave them alone. Pet ones that you see out with their owners when they tell you it's okay, but leave them the heck alone when they are doing what the breed was meant for.

1. Did not enter your home uninvited. 2. Did not fire into your home or attempt to do bodily harm from outside your home. 3. Did not threaten you earlier. If someone has, it must be witnessed and/or reported to the county sheriff.

Killing a dog is not subject to the same laws as humans. As it should be. You don't have a dog that would attack a visitor coming to your door do you? That would also be illegal as dangerous animals must be restrained. Even if fenced in your yard. Rescue workers may need to get to you or someone in the house and enter your yard.

Believe me. I understand your feelings about it. Most will never ever have an incident of anything like this.

A man coming at you 5 ft away with a machete raised and issuing threats is usually justified, especially if you issue commands to cease.

Someone with zero experience with very large dogs bearing teath and acting aggressively is usually justified, even if they were doing their job and protecting the flock. The differentiating circumstance is the very nature of being away from quick help.

So I think I could justify gunfire at my front door as an immediate threat, since there could be no other explanation. It's also a log home, so firing at the house would be hard to ascertain unless it came through a window.

My biggest problem with the OP is that as presented, it sounds like he was already upset that a sheepherder was in HIS hunting area, and he was already predisposed to strike back. His partner made the right call.

I was actually scouting when it occurred so I didn’t even have my bow.

But I’ve also seen 2 different people bitten terribly by dogs, so your rose-colored glasses may have a different tint.

Later that year while packing out my bull, I came head to head with a Mtn Lion headed down the same trail I was going up. That incident didn’t bother me at all. That dog wasn’t right in the head.

That is a pretty funny statement when you consider most of these public land, free loading grazers think they own the place.

I don't go anywhere anymore without a concealed gun .... for instances just like this.

If I felt threatened, I'd kill the dog. Or bear, or cougar, or wild hog or whatever. My life is pretty important to me.

OK so who exactly is man's best friend?? Humans have legal rights, dogs do not. Humans have legal liability, dogs do not. So anyone want so give the dogs rights also need to consider the liability factor. Can the dog pay you back for damages? of course not the owner or handler does.

Leash and vaccination laws protect the general public AND the dog.

In a wilderness setting do you really want to wait to be injured before you take action?

Are sheep dogs identified by an owner's collar so they can be reported in an attack or harassment of game? Can the handler or worker identify for you who that is?? Contact info???

Harassment of hunters is illegal in all 50 sates. Thanks to organizations like the Sportsmans Alliance. How you harass hunters (personally, aircraft, drones or dogs..) really shouldn't matter.

Does a sheep herder carry liability insurance while using public lands in case their actions or the actions of their employees, dogs cause damage??

How about Workers compensation for the herder? Do they even have a legal status to work in US??

I have seen many small game, bear hunters track their dogs with radio collars, manual and electronic calls, etc. Sheep herder could obviously do the same thing. Sure it may cost money and create effort on their part to train the employees, and dogs but that is a cost of doing business. They also should be aware there is an open hunting season and hunters will be in the woods, grasslands they are using. If you don't want to spend time and money to do the job correctly (e.g. protect your liability and the general publics safety on a publicly owned land) then don't wine when you get sued out of existence because you injured or killed somebody.

The hunter has every right as a member of the public to get peeved, pissed off etc. when they see a business owner's, feral dog chase and harass wildlife. Wildlife that belongs to the public managed by the state and Federal govt. Check out Public Trust Doctrine if you are unfamiliar with that concept.

General public including hunters has an expectation they won't be harmed by the actions or inactions of a business owner utilizing public space. The public space they have paid for with lisc. fees, excise taxes, etc.

That said I can and will protect myself, friends and family if I feel threatened by a animal; wild or domestic. Humans can separate the threat whether perceived or real. Dogs cannot and how can anyone know for sure whether they are dealing with a free-roaming/feral dog or one under owner/handler control?? I would bet a life time of deer steaks most if not all courts and victims of animal attack would agree with me. I carry a weapon, warning whistle and spray when appropriate, not afraid to use all of them when warranted.

I rarely go out in the woods or out of the house w/out a concealed weapon(where legally permitted).

I've had a few close calls when hiking, running and even mtn biking. Now my pistol goes with me in either pocket, holster on pack or in a bellyband when running or biking. If an animal gets aggressive or runs toward me, my hand goes on pistol. If the animal continues, the pistol comes out. Thank God I have not had to use it yet, but if needed I would.

Bottom line is if I feel my safety is threatened, all other considerations go out the window. I WILL NOT be bitten, mauled or killed.

And yes, I am a dog/cat owner.

I have had lots of encounters with the sheep. It's all bad. If I see the sheep and the herders I clear the hell out of there.

If they didn't contaminate the water so much I would be less critical. They purposely go into the streams to drink and piss as a habit.

Why?

Pretty ignorant statement considering the "free loading grazers" have to pay for grazing permits on public lands. What extra federal or state permit did you pay a few thousand dollars for to use that ground?

"How about Workers compensation for the herder? Do they even have a legal status to work in US??

I have seen many small game, bear hunters track their dogs with radio collars, manual and electronic calls, etc. Sheep herder could obviously do the same thing. Sure it may cost money and create effort on their part to train the employees, and dogs but that is a cost of doing business. They also should be aware there is an open hunting season and hunters will be in the woods, grasslands they are using. If you don't want to spend time and money to do the job correctly (e.g. protect your liability and the general publics safety on a publicly owned land) then don't wine when you get sued out of existence because you injured or killed somebody."

It's all a matter of money, the more you increase the cost of doing business the more we will import wool products from other countries because they are more affordable. Fewer grazing permits will be out there generating revenue for forest districts. Fewer sheep operations will mean we have just that many fewer allies with sportsmen on the topic of population control of predators. It's all fine and good going around pointing the finger at others saying what they should do better and how they should spend their money but at some point you need to look at the net gain or loss. Where I hunt elk, sheep are in the main drainage June through September. During that time they experience predation, and after a couple sheep go down a state paid trapper goes in and deals with the predator problem. Last year I believe the total was 6 wolves and 2 bears that were removed do to predation on sheep. For me, I'd rather have a couple of Pyrenees running deer and elk away from the flock (occasionally killing some) than have 6 wolves preying on elk year round and the damage the black bears do to the elk calves in the spring.

I'm not saying a person shouldn't defend themselves from being attacked by a dog. I'm saying with the use of some common sense and understanding what you can expect when you see sheep in the mountains, the situation can be avoided 99% of the time. You have the rite to walk through the middle of the flock on public ground just like you have the rite to use a crosswalk when it gives you the signal to walk across it. But a person is an idiot if they step out on that crosswalk when they see a car coming that's not slowing down. The person can sue the driver and rail on them about their negligence because the pedestrian had the rite of way, but it's not going to add any cushion between the pedestrian and bumper when they meet. Understand what you can expect and do your best to avoid the situation. I open carry in the mountains incase I ever end up between a sow and her cubs. I'd feel terrible for having to shoot the sow but I'm not going to let her chew on me. I also make it a point that when I see bear cubs I get out of there so I don't have to deal with a pissed off sow.

Being aware of what's going on and what's happening around you is the biggest part of avoiding getting hurt in the mountains. Be aware that when you come across sheep there's a threat to your well being if you choose to get closer to them or walk through them. If you like shooting dogs, being chewed on, or love lawyers, take the time to go around the sheep or understand your sense of entitlement to walk through them can really screw up your hunt.

That is a pretty ignorant statement when you consider how much money the government agencies lose to the grazing programs on both BLM and Forest Service.

Do a little research and see how much money they pay while defiling your elk meadows.

Not a herder in sight.

Just like the family lab!

Dinkshooters's press release about the old lady afraid of the sheep dogs reminds me of the 1 or two old ladies seemingly every year that get stomped by moose, mostly due to their own ignorance. I don't hear you guys calling for the eradication of all moose, or shooting them if you encounter one that lays it's ears back - a real threat.

I was up hunting for a week by myself a few years ago. One afternoon it rained like crazy so I decided to catch up on some sleep. All of a sudden I heard something eating my trash. I looked out and it was a sheep dog. He came up to my tent wagging his tail. He ended up hanging out in my camp with me. That night I cooked backstraps and gave him half. He layed there by the fire until I got up in the morning. It was nice to have some company after not having any sort of interaction for a few days.

It kinda reminded me of the movie Sandlot where the boys were scared "THE BEAST" only to find out it was a friendly dog.

the situation is a dog that's doing something to CREATE a situation

dog is doing what it does, without the owner being around to manage the dog and be accountable it might as well be a wild dog IMO

if a person feel's threatened, shoot it dead and go on

its a dog, I wish people cared more about abortions and a million dead babies every year as they do about an animal that is food in many countries

I love my Aussie - if she gets on your land or public land and threatens you, shoot her dead. My fault for not keeping better watch and training her better.

I thought this was turning into a strange penthouse forum story. "I never thought it would happen to me..."

That's exactly right. So why should the dog pay for your transgression? If your dog bites me, I'd rather see YOU pay than the dog.

I've known many dogs that I think a lot more highly of than some people. I could comment more on 'your wish', but it would be inappropriate for this subject.

when returning to their truck 2 rottweilers started closing in on them, one from each side.

the boy was 12 or 13 or 14. The dad was legitimately concerned that they were in danger. as the dogs began closing in, the dad put an arrow into the chest of the closer dog. the 2nd dog ran off.

he did the right thing and called the warden. the warden responded, and contacted the dog owner, who said he was out hunting with his dogs (raccoon if memory serves - never heard of rotts for coons, but that is neither here nor there) and wondered why one of them didn't come back.

no charges were pressed.

however, the dog owner sued in civil court and won $150,000. thats about 275k in today's dollars.

hefty price to pay for shooting a dog, but a cheap price to pay from keeping your boy from getting shredded.

not sure what the lesson is, but i sure like the bear spray option.

What happens when the dog bites you on the inner thigh and you're 5 miles back in?

If the dog bites you, you provoked it in some fashion or another and it's your fault, not the dogs. Good luck getting the owner to pay...

"I've known many dogs that I think a lot more highly of than some people."

placing an animals life higher than a human's ... that's what animal rights activists do, you know that right? why is their placements so very different than what you are doing? no difference - animal life is greater than a human's is a tragedy. Even the worst of people have souls, and to their very death a chance at salvation.

to each their own I guess, my life and every human life is valuable beyond an animals is the way I see it

There are laws that properly differentiate between animals and people. But that doesn't absolve you of exercising due care when using lethal force. You are also not entitled to complete protection from fear or even safety. There has to be a REAL threat, not just your particular level of tolerance to a possible threat. A barking dog is NOT a real threat in the way an attacking dog is. If you can't accept that, maybe you should stay in your house where you can feel safer.

For example: if I'm walking down a dimly lit street and a guy in a hoody walking the other way says "excuse me" and I stop to see what he wants, and he proceeds to rob me at gunpoint; doesn't give me license the next time I walk down that street, and a guy in a hoody says "excuse me", to shoot him preemptively because of what MAY happen next.

I never said you can't protect or defend yourself. What I question is your ability to make that decision appropriately. And one thing that everyone should consider when contemplating lethal force, is there are NO free rides when you do. Be prepared to defend yourself in criminal and/or civil court. Your right to self defense comes with a high level of responsibility. One that I don't ascertain in your disdain for all but human life.

Unfortunately, most of us don't speak dog and don't know if they are saying "back off" or "make one wrong move and you're dead". That's why, unless you have a bona fide dumb head in black robes hearing a case, it's pretty cut and dry about defending yourself that you were justified in using leathal force on an agressive encounter with an animal.

I hardly believe anyone is qualified to give instruction on how you should interpret a dangerous situation or not.

I know the encounter I had was warrented as the dog (a German Shepard) was aggressively advancing as we backed away. In fact, that dog was not even phased enough to run off when my dad kicked it in the throat because it was that close. Fortunately, we were in city limits and were able to call animal control once inside his office building. We had our backs to the wall all the way to the door. The outcome could have been much, much worse...

LOL Amoebus too funny!

what doesn't differ is Animal Rights Activists saying animals have the same rights as humans

your view echoes what they say in many ways

if that scenario happened to me, and I drew my gun and killed the dogs, I'd triple S and never think much more about it to be honest

I killed my Corgi a few years ago, she was hurt by a car and my first shot I missed her ... she knew I was going to kill her at that point. Hurt my feelings, it was sad, I loved that dog ..... but she was a dog. Just a dog.

These statutes represent Pennsylvania's Dog Law, and contain provisions related to licensing, rabies quarantines, kennels, and the dangerous dog chapter. The significant features of the law include a statewide control requirement for dogs (Section 305) and provisions for "dangerous dogs" (Section 501 et. seq.). Under the latter, any person may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing or wounding or killing any domestic animal, including household pets, or pursuing, wounding or attacking human beings, whether or not such a dog bears a required license tag. There is no liability on such persons in damages or otherwise for such killing.

Federal law.c) Pets or feral animals that are running-at-large and observed by an authorized person in the act of killing, injuring or molesting humans, livestock, or wildlife may be destroyed if necessary for public safety or protection of wildlife, livestock, or other park resources.

lots of states have dog laws against harassing big game or people.

It is interesting to read the differing thought processes of the "Monday morning quarterbacking" tho.

I don't carry mace - although I used to carry at work and had a German Shepherd come after me, I sprayed it in the face at about 5 feet away .... it definitely works! As I stated above - in that situation, at that time, I would have shot the dog.

NOW, after reading some of the posts ... if this same scenario were to happen to me ... my hand gun is out as I speak in a calming voice, up until either he leaves, I fire 1 (only 1) warning shot. After that, the next move is up to him whether he lives or dies and NO, I absolutely am not going to let him come up to sniff my hand. One more step in my direction in this threatening manner and it's lights out.

Both courses I took were taught by law enforcement. Both said the same thing. The one thing in CCW courses is to also teach you the (legal) ramifications of using deadly force in a defensive shooting. The reason, humans have the ability to reason, animals don't. Humans are guaranteed under the Constitution that no one shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process. Essentially, that's what you have to prove in court, that you had the right to take life without due process.

Hence the basis for this entire thread. Animals cannot reason and they do not have rights granted under the Constitution, they are programmed one way, regardless of how much training they have...

and that hunters don't pay thousands in fees to hunt those same lands?

Wow good to know. And here I thought I had a right to hunt without huge dogs growling and baring their teeth at me, forcing me to guess if I am in danger.

I get it now. Grazing fees allow shepherds to have their dogs run elk and menace hunters. They paid for the right.

I get it now. Grazing fees allow shepherds to have their dogs run elk and menace hunters. They paid for the right".

HA this!

The first rule of anyone who KNOWS he did something wrong.

What's the difference in not shooting a dog "guarding" sheep and a feral dog trying to eat you alive?

You'd better speak softly and calm to the feral one as well otherwise it's a double standard.

My dogs have a spirit and emotions and more common sense than a lot of humans.

Animals can NOT reason, and therefore can NOT have common sense- that's what makes them animals.(and us HUMANS ;-)

Neither can a human baby, sometimes, from my observations, not even 'til past their teenage years, if ever.

Off topic, but necessary: so that's why some think abortion is ok...