Outfitter flakes, what's a fair payment?
Elk
Just got back from my Elk hunt. I had booked with an outfitter for a guided hunt in central Montana. My brother and my friend also booked. Normally the hunt is $4,000 each. As we get to the trailhead (on Sunday) I'm informed that a guide "might" come in on Tuesday. No guide ever showed up, we were just in camp with the cook. I ended up guiding my brother and friend in the whole week in an area we were completely unfamiliar with, we were given a scribbled hand drawn map and were told try here and here. On Thursday even the cook left camp and no one came to pick us up until Saturday. Luckily I brought my spike camp gear and we hunted an area we found 4 miles away that had a decent herd. My question is what do you think we should pay for this hunt?
We had, a pack in with horses, a base camp with tents, a cook (for 4 days) and if we got an elk down the outfitter would pack it out.
What we didn't have was a guide, no knowledge of the area, also very few elk in The area of the camp.
I would assume there was a signed contract that was not fulfilled, so I would negotiate with the outfitter to receive a mutually beneficial conclusion to this saga.
I tend to agree with TXHunter - I assume you paid part of it down, then the rest before the hunt, meaning you had a written agreement with what would be provided?
They failed, pure and simple and not just on the guide, but multiple facets of your hunt.
I'd nicely explain that if you are not refunded 100%, you will take it to Montana's outfitters association (I assume they have one) and start the process of legal action.
You likely saved up for a once in a lifetime product (elk hunting guided experience) and you didn't get anything close to that.
That's on them, not you
We figure we had basically gotten a drop camp so there is some value in that, but we didn't come all the way to Montana for a drop camp, this was my brothers and friends first elk hunt and I wanted them to have a good experience. Especially for my brother it was extremely rare for him to get enough vacation days to do this so we had an opportunity cost that we could have booked with a real outfitter.
What stealthy said. Had the same happen to me on an outfitted Iowa deer hunt. I cancelled the check for the last half of the hunt and aggravated that low life bastard until he gave the up front money back. Tails of the Hunt in case that low life bastard reads this. We were still out six days of our lives and gas up and back.
So on what was supposed to be a 7 day guided hunt, you had a guide for 0 days, and a cook for 3 days.
I don't think the outfitter earned his money...I believe you have grounds for further action as well.
Just wondering what did the Outfitter say? A good reputable outfit that makes a mistake is going to try to make it right.
I would say a 1/4 of the agreed upon price, consisideirng you did partake in some services. I would venture to guess you looking to recieve on money already paid. Kind of puts you in the weak position for negotiating a settlement just something to keep in mind.
Why is there an option on what you "will" pay? Most outfitters require 100% of the money before the hunt begins.
A good drop camp with a cook could run $2500 but sounds like you really didn't even get that. Did you get an elk down and did they pack it out?
WOW, Did you come from Hawaii for this hunt? Unbelievable.
Discuss your concerns with the outfitter. Give him chance to make it right. If he doesn't, do whatever necessary to recoup your losses.
What a joke, Nothing owed in my opinion,...name the outfitter so the rest of us can avoid the outfit and put him out of business.
Drop camp prices run about $2,000. I'd say that is about the market value of the services you got, assuming you got packed in. That said, that's certainly not the hunt you paid for or were expecting. If you already have a deposit down I'd say that would suffice.
"name the outfitter so the rest of us can avoid the outfit and put him out of business."
Try to get your money back and then put him out of business. Although it sounds like he/she is almost already there unless this was a serious emergency on their part.
I don't quite get the people saying the outfitter is owed anything? There a LOT of real life examples of getting zero money if you don't come close to fulfilling a contract - this (I presume) wasn't billed as a drop camp? They would be paying a lot more than money if one of you got hurt/killed up there and all the guides/cooks had left you.
Call the outfitter and tell him you had to guide the other hunters so you should get that fee - and it equates to the price each of you paid for this non-hunt.
Man, some of y'all sure are forgiving.
He paid for an experience he didn't get. Lost time he will never get back. Experienced understandable disappointment that would be hard to describe. In short, it was a train wreck.
And you think he should still pay something to the man responsible???
I can't hunt with outfitters with how I like/time to hunt. But if I paid 4G for a hunt and didn't get what was promised, the outfitter would not be happy with me. Even if he gave me back 2g. The hunt was still ruined for me/us. What did the hunt really cost you?? Vacation time,, cost to get there and other costs. All dollars out the windows. Ed
My brother and I flew from Hawaii $800 EACH for the flight, my friend drove 1,000 miles from palm desert California to come up. Luckily, he was so unorganized he didn't collect a deposit. We were to pay upon arrival, but he wasn't even there for the pack in-he was at a different camp he runs. So luckily no money has changed hands yet. THANK GOD....I've actually hunted with him before so I'm gonna give him a chance to make it right before I post his name. But seriously, if you book a bow hunt for elk, do your homework ON BOWSITE first. I think the recommended outfitters on the site look really good.
i did my homework on bowsite, and im not happy with those results either.
if i were you, i would not pay one cent
We didn't get an elk down. I had a shot on a bull feeding in a clearing but I pulled back to let my brother shoot it-he was sitting by some trees about 100 yds away. I went to get him and when we came back the bull was gone. We made the best of the hunt and actually had a good time because we could do it ourselves and we spike camped for 3 nights. Unfortunately even with the fun we had, dealing with this kind of sours the experience.
You mean what is a fair payment for the outfitter to pay you in addition to a full refund right?
You signed up for a guided hunt and didn't get one. It cost you vacation time and travel expenses. You should be fully reimbursed for what you paid plus he should pay you for the other expenses you had in getting there as well as the value of your vacation days and the seven days of your time he wasted.
I would send him a bill for your travel expenses!
Awesome! Great advice guys! I guess it's pretty much unanimous. $0 it is. Thanks!
Zero and he owes you for your flights and vacation.
You should sue him for all travel expenses and all other costs associated!!! Whats wrong with you!!! You probably look at this as disposable income which most here do not!
What did your contract say? If you paid up front and those services were not rendered and should've been then collect in court.
If a remaining balance is due, pay nothing more than you have and collect on what you've already paid for.
That will be a most memorable hunt, talked and rehashed countless times for sure. Quite unusual to say the least! Not often can or would one be expected to be treated in that manner. An Unusual hunt demands an unusual tip certainly not the standard 10% I would bump it up to 25% in a heartbeat. Price of hunt $000 X tip .25= $O
lots of scams in montana!
The contract should spell it out. If contract was not fulfilled..... do you pay your car mechanic for not fixing your car?
One question that may change things.... at what point was the outfitter contacted as to the problems???? I rent equipment... a classic is returning equipment broken and late claiming it never worked.... is that why we were never called with the problems and on top of that returned it late????
"Luckily, he was so unorganized he didn't collect a deposit. We were to pay upon arrival, but he wasn't even there for the pack in-he was at a different camp he runs. So luckily no money has changed hands yet." So, other than the cost to get each of you there, you haven't any money invested with the outfitter, correct? Has he contacted you for payment? I think I'd call it a wash. The cost of the services he did provide; horses, camp, cook are offset by the lack of a guide. You'll never know whether or not the guy would have packed your animals out so that's a moot point
I'd love the outfitter's name so I can book with him next year!
Free drop camps are hard to come by these days.....
I would be pretty upset! I saw don't pay anything!
Zero money due. Paying any money to an outfitter of this type is simply guaranteeing the future fleecing of other sportsmen.
No lawsuit. No payment. No running him down on Bowsite. Merely stating the outfitter as ill-advised should be enough.
"Zero money due. Paying any money to an outfitter of this type is simply guaranteeing the future fleecing of other sportsmen."
Agreed.
Maybe it is the beautiful Hawaiian weather/scenery, but you seem to be taking this very well.
Have you gotten any explanation from the outfitter as to what happened? I would certainly call him to find that out and make a decision on contacting the MT outfitters board (if there is such a thing). If nothing else, you can go over with him that you don't plan to pay for this hunt - and you can decide if you want to try and charge him for travel expenses. (I wouldn't, but I suspect others would.) This might avoid anything legal - if he tries to bill you for the hunt in the future.
I would tip the cook and maybe send the guide 100$ a man to cover the cost of the food you ate. Other than that I'm afraid he wouldn't get much out of me. I understand as my vacation is at a premium and to drive or fly in your case, out for a guided hunt that barely meets the requirements of a drop camp. I would not be as kind to this guy as you have been.
I would be pretty upset! I saw don't pay anything!
Glad you had fun. Glad it worked out that way. Could have been much worse. I'd call it a wash and move on. Sounds like you are. No amount of legal action and time would likely get you any more $ anyways - even if you thought you deserved it - which it doesn't sound like you do. I'd agree with you.
IMO Nada dang thing, a company name would be good, hate to see other fellas waste time and money,,luckily you got to keep yours! use it for the next adventure and dont look back
MikeC
Hunt, please keep us updated. I've very curious to see how this turns out. Maybe the outfitter has a good excuse and will make this right.
Since no money was paid, I would assume there is no contract. You owe him nothing... and I would be pissed.
I would not have paid him, and he should feel fortunate that I didn't find him!
I guess my question is why did the outfitter not charge you before you left the trailhead. Most if not all outfitters are paid before the trip even starts. What was the down payment arrangement- to me that would have been a red flag before even leaving on the hunt. Sounds like a non reputable outfit for sure-I would still him if he is that stupid-unless he comes up with a believable excuse.
For what you paid you should of received private land access to many elk of high quality, and close by. Comfortable stands all set up, one on one guiding, packers, lodge and cooking.
Try Armells Creek Outfitters in Roy, or Flatwillow Creek Outfitters. There are others with good reputations.
I was thinking the same as Hayguide! It would have been a red flag to me that he did not take any $$$ and was unorganized. I would have been worried that he would even come back for me!
Actually, I would have been a little skeptical if he did not take a deposit to begin with.
I would probably contact him and try to get re-imbursed for the money of your flight and any other expenses incurred. However I would not put any money out(sue in court) to try to get it. More than likely you're never going to get it.
In the end, you did get an experience, and some kind of service. Not anywhere close to what you expected. But for the cost of the flight and your time, I think what you paid was about right. I wouldn't feel guilty for NOT paying this guy a cent!
I didn't realize that no money changed hands. I also agree that should have been a huge red flag.
So, I'd consider it a wash and not pay anything. And you got a pretty good deal. You got a base camp, horses, and a cook for a few days. If you would have known this advance, you could have done some research and made a good hunt out of it. Since you were expecting a guide, you expected him to do that research.
But i wouldn't pay anything. He did give some services but also screwed you pretty badly. Sounds like a wash to me...
Please post this "guides" info on the Bowsite review section. You will save someone else the same experience.
Forget paying the outfitter, I would expect a check from the outfitter. You signed up for an outfitted hunt. I would be pissed I spent money on flights, burned time off from work, etc. I'd probably want at least a few grand!
The right amount either way is whatever works best for you. Yes, he screwed up but I try and keep hunting on the positive side of life. Chasing down a shady, incompetent or unlucky outfitter for your expenses is probably not worth it, valid or not. Besides being a downer, its also unlikely you would get anything out of it or at least not enough to warrant the hassle and drama. I likely wouldn't pay but I would do something for the cook and guide if it was out of their control and they provided a service. I wouldn't close the door completely on paying the outfitter for what was provided depending on the circumstances. It depends on what happened and his attitude.
I've made lemonade from a couple lemon hunts in the past. Both ended up being a ton of fun and great memories.
Hunting should be a fun and positive part of life. There are times when keeping it on that side of the line means passing on the opportunity to even the scales with a bad outfitter, crappy partner, weird neighbor, trespasser, shady meat processor, etc.
I'd ask for all the money back, THEN consider paying back a bit for the meals and gear supplied, depending on how co-operative and responsive the "outfitter" is.
I think some of you are missing a VERY IMPORTANT piece - he has hunted with this guide before so I am assuming they have some type of relationship where the guide trusted him, etc.
I would probably be honest with him and say you brought friends and flew from a long ways away. That you put your reputation on the line and he didn't deliver.
Did you guys harvest any elk?
If you didn't I would want to just say you guys are square. If you did get an elk or two I would pay him for hauling it out (if you want to keep a relationship).
Also, did you negotiate the hunt down from $4k - your original email kid of makes it feel like he might have cut you a deal.
Anyway, what you ask for depends if you will ever hunt with him again.
A little more background- I had hunted with this outfitter before and he is a nice guy, I've known him to be a little unorganized but nothing like this. He seems to have bitten off more than he can chew by trying to run two camps simultaneously. Personally I'm very adaptable and can roll with most bull***t but when he screwed my brother and friend that is the main thing that pissed me off. When we talked on the phone before the hunt I specifically mentioned to him that this amount of money is a big investment for us and he assured me that he would make everything right. to me the worst thing is that they relied on me to make the decision on where we hunted so i feel totally responsible for the way things went.
When the packer got us out to the trail head the outfitters wife told him to collect our money before we left and I told her we'll have to talk to him directly before we paid anything. The guy is still in the backcountry at his other camp so we are still waiting for him to get out to call us. I sent him a long email that his wife relayed to him via sat phone.
FYI we tipped out the cook $450 for his time and the packer $150 (only an hour and a half ride)
You took care of the cook so it sounds to me like your even. If he wants money I think I'd let him know how lucky he is you haven't trashed him to everyone possible.
Did you shoot an elk? Just curious, if not like I said above I wouldn't pay him anything else - I would only pay him a packing fee for taking an elk out.
If it was just you then maybe a little more lenient but you brought friends and that's where it became unacceptable in my opinion.
Absolutely nothing. Make sure you spread the word on this outfitter so no others get taken.
"My question is what do you think we should pay for this hunt?"
As a licensed guide, my question is- what does your contract stipulate? You have a contract for this business arrangement, don't you?
That's why my answer to your question is: Pay a retainer fee to the meanest-pittbull-attorney you can afford!!
TD, think of it like this. I call you to rent a power drill, when I show up to the shop you hand me a box and say "well I know I told you I'd rent you a power drill but what I actually have is this here hand crank drill" "uh not quite what I wanted but I guess it will work" then I drive home and open the box to find a beautiful brand new Hammer. then when I go to return the hammer you say ok you owe me $10 for a hammer rental.
Case in point- we got a drop camp but that's not what we wanted. We could have easily hunted on our own for free. We even used all our own equipment. Tent, sleeping pads, bags, even our own mountain house meals!!! This guy literally only has a small Costco bill for food and a small bit of payroll.
There was no paper contract, no waivers, but also, and luckily no deposit.
We did not kill an Elk. I had a shot but since I was guiding, I went to get my brother to shoot and when we got back the bull was gone. So actually had there been a guide I potentially would have killed a bull.
I can't believe if this happened, you had to ask what to pay.
Hunt... What did the outfitter say? Does he expect any money?
If you pay anything, it should just be for packing all of you in and out, and any meals he supplied. $1000-1500 total for all of you. And that is if you want to be more than fair. You were lucky on one point, don't know of any outfitter that doesn't get at least 50% down prior to your even arriving
I really would not take anyone else's word for what you would pay! It was your trip and you did the research and you had an experience, so what was it worth to you? Zero you really think so? If so then maybe rethink it? Whatever you paid good, bad or in different it was a lesson in life. You really have to use your God given judgement on things like this and even then it can get twisted up.
I have $25,000.00 wrapped up in Elk hunts and no shots. Close a couple times and seen and experienced a lot but no Elk.
Shot nice deer on a few of those trips but what should I have paid when it turned out to be a deer hunt. Each trip I felt like I paid a lot as well but that's all part of it also. Out of 6 elk hunts there's only one outfitter I'd go back with in Alberta and they gave up they got to old to carry it on.
I would have paid what they wanted and it sounds like you got smart and went to find the elk with what you had to work with. It would have been nice if the outfitter worked things out with you and hope they did. What if the guide that was supposed to show up was really bad? Then things might have been worse for you too. Sorry this happened research goes a long way and has to rule. My early hunts were not researched well myself but then I learned more and had some great hunts 4th 5th and 6th.Got a lot smarter and knew what I wanted and what to expect and what was expected of me as well. Hoe fully it gets better on your next elk hunt.
Assuming your side of the story is accurate, would you have gone with your brother and friend if you knew that you would be on your own in your spike camp? Probably not, so you actually were tricked into spending airfare etc. by false advertising for this hunt.
If the overall experience was still worth something to you then I would pay him some semblance of what it was worth. If you wish you had just stayed home, that says it all. $0.
You already paid the cook and packer. I would pay the outfitter $500 for the drop camp you used for 4 days and tell him the rest was all your gear for a spike camp to get to where the animals were.
Not a dime and I'd be contacting the state board of outfitters looking for reimbursement for my license.
We figure we had basically gotten a drop camp so there is some value in that, but we didn't come all the way to Montana for a drop camp, this was my brothers and friends first elk hunt and I wanted them to have a good experience. Especially for my brother it was extremely rare for him to get enough vacation days to do this so we had an opportunity cost that we could have booked with a real outfitter.
Mule Power is an outfitter and he's saying 0. I agree. I'd say the vast majority of people are saying 0 but you keep saying there is some value in some of it.
What exactly are you looking for? You didn't get anything you were promised and you won't give a name to warn other hunters. I don't care if he does make you "whole" the fact this happened once is too much and it's completely fair to warn others.
Too late but.... it would've been pretty funny for you to write a check and put it under a rock somewhere around where he dropped you off. Then when asked for payment say "I dropped it off, in the mountains, around where you dropped us off, in the mountains." Maybe give a hand drawn map where he could start looking. Maybe he'd get the hint. Then if he finds it he gets a check for the drop camp.... if not you got a drop camp hunt.
