Antelope Island Mule Deer = $305,000 Most elk tags = $25000-30000 Goat Tags = $20,000
I have the entire list by tag and price. I know this is a hot topic, but I thought I would just share what they were going for tonight.
Good luck in the draws!
I have sent them out to a lot of you already but if I missed ya or ya want to see them----toss me an email.
They are between 20 seconds and 40 seconds long...
Good luck, Robb
Makes me feel pretty darned good about getting a Panguitch Lake archery elk tag for $4,500.
I hope I didn't miss any one....
Good luck, Robb
PS. Ya stole that tag Kyle! ha
Anyone have pictures of some bucks from this year out there? I don't go on MM much anymore to keep up with them.
Ya know--ear tag type deal.....all for wildlife for sure!
Good luck, Robb
She asked one of the DNR wardens a good question as well. "If you take the antlers from the poacher, can't they just buy them back at the auction?"
They were both good questions! Both are expensive and neither is really hunting. The poacher is probably going to spend less on the fine and buying "his" rack back than he'd spend on an outfitted hunt!
Nick, there are some pics on MM but like you, I don't go there anymore. It's a soap opera. Here's one of his AI bucks. I have no idea what year it is. The whole thing makes me queasy.
I was on Antelope Island just last summer and any hunt there would be a fair chase hunt.
That's comical... The guys who hunt there had their entourage on the Island for months leading up to the "hunt"...
I'd LOVE to shed hunt it someday.
Are those deer even eligible for the record books?
Nick, I think you have to pay a fee to shed hunt there and it'll be a frantic race with half of SLC on one specific day.
The island is a BIG island. It's a bit over 42 square miles.
That the tag buyer had people out scouting the island may not be what you or I would do, or even like the thought of, but sadly, that same thing happens with almost all of the high price tags. That does not mean the hunt is not fair chase.
BTW, there is at least one exit from the island. It's unlikely deer or sheep would transit that exit, but it has been done in several other locales when you'd say to yourself, "No way!"
Let's start some controversy now and see who thinks we are better without the state of Utah having and using the 4-5 Million (est) dollars the expo generated vs having every tag sold through the draw for us regular guys.
I for one can see most of the big picture and I am not jealous of people who have money.
Fire away.
It may all be in the up and up. Not sure on this end what to think.
The steak and lobster was tasty though.
A few years ago, a very good conservationist did all the research, state by state, province by province. For all of North America He then presented it to the state wildlife agencies at the Western Wildlife conference. Documented the gross and net revenue, listed the use of the funds etc.
He also concluded that the biggest downfall of the auction programs was that the public was not being informed of the actual benefits that they are receiving. He predicted a backlash from the lack of education on the subject. That is what we are seeing here.
I am a bit surprised at some who are respected on this site making what I think are baseless allegations.
When someone says "states receive a fraction" that is correct. The most common fraction is 9/10.
The 200+ convention permits are whole 'nother story. The fund-raising portion of those, which is the 5.00 per chance raffle proceeds, is kept entirely by the private organization. Reportedly this amounts to about $1,000,000.00 per year at the Expo. The bone of contention that most have with this cool million, is that the org is not required to account for the specific details of where this money is spent. They're allowed for example to simply state "consulting fees" as a lump category, with no further details required. These being public funds generated by means of public resources, eyebrows are obviously raised.
Another issue relates to the "Non-Resident Only" convention raffle permits. A few highly-coveted permits (Zion Sheep, Henry Bison, Wasatch Moose, Nine Mile Sheep, Ogden Goat) are restricted to NON RESIDENT attendees of the Expo. Due to low attendance by NON RESIDENTS, these permits generate poor returns compared to, say, their auction value. For instance the 2 sheep tags sell about 800 chances each to NR attendees. Since rules dictate only one chance per attendee per tag, these highly-coveted permits produce about 4000.00 each in total 'conservation revenue'. The sheep permits would auction for 60,000.00-80,000.00 each or more. Even better....an unrestricted, open-to-everyone raffle would likely generate similar results. If the state wildlife agency is claiming these type of permits are offered to generate funds for wildlife conservation, and then in actual practice they're being raffled off for pennies on the dollar, I can understand the skepticism on the part of hunters and other interested parties.
And his my friend is why I hope I never see the day CO goes 100% draw on elk. All these states with their giant bulls and astronomical draw odds can keep them!
I think it was ol dirty Rob a few years ago who posted the number of permits that go to these conventions. I was absolutely floored by the numbers. I'm all for a few here and there, but you guys have a right to be pissed.
Ever stop to think maybe the money funneled to these projects helped SLOW the decline of the population? Perhaps it would be that much worse without it.
Regardless, uninformed support or opposition is dangerous. Everyone should dig in for the facts of the matter and not judge the situation upon first glance.
At some point all "Draws" will be done away with! Replaced by the annual big game tag Auction! All tags go to the highest bidder, No bag limits (so you can buy multiple tags if you want) and all tags are transferable ( so you can resell to those who missed the auction and make more $ or outfitters can acquire tags for clients)
That way states can maximize profit from the resource. Its purely capitalistic to get the the most $ possible from the limited resource (true market value).
Do you know John Bair personally?
I know he attempted to have an all encompasing public debate with Don Peay at SFW but it fell through when the books wouldn't be opened ahead of time for his analysis.
Cheney said in his speech Saturday night that he agreed to do the speech for an award they planned to give him. He said it in a way that sounded like the award was payment for the speech. It was strange.
I hear that Pat Lefemine is a huge bowhunter and so on and so on. I hear that hearsay is B.S.
To insinuate that John Bair is getting tags on the sly is laughable. I know John very well and he's a person of incredible character and would never jeopardize what he believes to be the bigger picture of life for an animal tag of any kind. There's 49 other states to live in, maybe they have all the answers that would bring you the very most happiness. As for me, I'm thrilled to live in a state with such diversity and will find satisfaction no matter the circumstances around me. Oh and I'm not a member of SFW.
I know John as well. He's worked The Sheep Show as an auctioneer the past few years and the last two years he also was our auctioneer at the CA WSF banquet.
John' a first rate auctioneer, yet he charges CA WSF a small fraction his going rate because he's totally into our mission. He puts in lots of volunteer sweat equity hours into wildlife projects.
In the eleven years since CA WSF had its' first fundraiser, I've won a dozen or so guns in the raffles. Why? Luck played a part, no doubt, but I also have probably bought more tickets than anyone else as well.
Last year I was our Master of Ceremonies and was on stage for the raffle drawings. The raffle bins were your typical chicken wire type bins, so everyone could see the tickets.
I saw some young kids in the room, so asked them to come up to draw the tickets. They'd reach in, pull out a ticket, then I'd read the name of the lucky winner. Could anything be cleaner than that? One of our directors won FIVE guns. No one cried 'foul' because there was no question the draw wasn't totally legit. He'd also bought a HUGE number of tickets.
In my experience, the volunteers and directors of these NGOs are likely to buy FAR more raffle tickets than the average person. So to imply the draws were 'rigged' is an affront and an insult to the dedicated and hard-working volunteers who donate so much of their time and money to the organizations they love.
Oh, BTW, the guy who won the five guns at our event last year donated two of them back. Of the dozen or so I've won, I kept exactly TWO and donated all the others back to be auctioned.
So kota-man-----
Ya gonna give up some of your FACTS?
When you call folk's uneducated ya better bring something to the table other than ignorant statements.
Do you live in Utah??
Are you a member of $cam $FW/BGF??
Do you have a breakdown of your Utah Conservation Tag Purchase to show where all your $$$ went For Wildlife?
Help all of us Uneducated types out here kota-man----
Good luck, Robb
My support of John has nothing to do with SFW. That's an entirely different issue and one that I do not have enough data to comment on one way or another.
I was merely noting that I in no way believe the raffles and drawings are rigged.
Conservation Tags - 90% of the auction price goes to the DWR. 10% to the "organization" auctioning it off. There are 400+ of these tags given out in Utah each year.
Expo Tags - $5 per tag - 100% of this goes to the "organization(s)" running the expo. Then the tag price is charged to each winner of this raffle. 100% of that tag fee goes to the DWR. There are 200 or so of these each year. They were claimed to have been taken from the NR LE and OIL pool, but if you actually go look at the ratio of draw tags on any unit, NR average higher than their allotted 10%. They were never taken from that pool, but plucked out of thin air.
Landowner Permits - These are the unspoken backhander to the landowners to account for "depredation" of the states resource that spends portions of the year on their property. A number of these are donated back to the leading "organization" by landowner associations, to be auctioned off at the "organization(s)" banquets. 100% of this goes to "organization" doing the auction. I've never seen a detailed accounting of these tags and exactly how many of them are given out every year.
John's a nice enough guy, but the idea that the former president of the very "organization" putting on the expo could even be allowed to put in for the tags, much less be lucky enough to draw one of the states most coveted tags is so laughable it's unbelievable.
Welcome to crony capitalism at it's finest :(
...and no I won't say cheers to that
This expo was started with 5 orgs pushing for these tags back in 05. Two left pretty much immediately and the sheep crew just kind of phased out.
Until about a year ago there had been no audit of where the monies from the app fees for these tags went. Probably to pay for a guy like Dick to go over wingshooting etiquette and to pay Troy Gentry ( thats right the same scumbag that arrowed a trained pet bear and tried to pass it off as fair chase )for their appearances. Anyway a year or so back UWC pushed for an accounting of where these public dollars were being used. MDF as the contract holder on the permits would have none of it, while their contract was still valid, but did agree to sit down with the DWR, SFW and UWC to see if satisfaction could be found. I suspect that portions of these funds were used to lobby legislator's for the multiple $300k grants given to SFW/BGF with no strings. Used to restrict angler access to water and also host meetings that further push the trophy, high success / low opportunity method of doling out permits preferred by SFW.
Personally I have no issues with Bair, I believe he's an honorable dude. He's never told me what I wanted to hear. The other portions of SFW I don't feel the same. I was burned by them on the elk committee and also lost statewide archery and AR-301 to this group. If they are all for promoting hunting the probably ought to quit supporting things that take sportsmen out of the field.
most hunters will focus on the convention / conservation tags, while these are a crock of crap please don't lose sight of the fact that ALL big game management decisions are made to guarantee the highest return possible for these permits. I sat in a meeting where Jim Karpowitz then DWR Director made a comment about turning Utah's elk in to a Walmart instead of staying at a Nordstrom level.
fire away
balls enough for old times there Rob my former friend?
1. The 'sheep crew,'if you're referring to WSF, had ZERO role in the creation of these Utah tags. None! That stuff was in place before we were ever went to SLC.
2. The 'sheep crew' in no way 'phased out.' We pulled out of the Expo for two reasons: We were bringing in 70% of the exhibitors and not beginning to get a reasonable split on the revenue in return, plus; our members did NOT want to go to Salt Lake for the convention. Downtown SLC pretty much shuts down at 5:00 every evening. Our exhibitors and members wanted to party at the end of the day. Nice city, but not at all a good fit for us.
Agree that there needs to be a LOT more information about the benefits accruing from these practices. Why not publicize the raffles and generate income by having lots of hunters submit modest amounts for a chance to draw one of those tages? IMO far too many tags go this way.
I would be interested to see their method of drawing the lucky bastards.
I you have a cogent response, along with FACTS, please post them here.
"Attached is the draft rule as it existed before going to the RACs. I would expect that there have been some (minor) changes as it went thru that process.
I think your review will quickly and absolutely identify that there is no "highest bidder" methodology allowed. Also that the cost to the individual to apply for a hunt is identical to that of the regular drawing.
Re: The statement that "... several of these groups have stated they want nothing to do with this proposal or convention", suggest you call - and talk to:
FNAWS - Ryan Foutz NWTF - Jon Leonard MDF - Tony Abbott RMEF - Bill Christensen SFW - Don Peay
All but Tony Abbott were at our RAC meeting last Wed. I personally heard Tony Abbott speak in support of the convention a couple of months ago. He has not spoken out or emailed that he has changed his mind."
These were the Original 5 that pushed this fiasco through.
If you need any more facts lemme know.
Don Peay has not been on the WSF board since 4/30/2007.
I was not on the board until 5/1/2007, AFTER the decision to partner with MDF and SFW at the WCHE had already been agreed to and finalized.
You might want to be sure of your target before dropping the string.
While Mr. Peay was on the WSF board when SFW pushed the tag-draw thing through the UT legislature, he did so wholly as a representative of SFW, not WSF. WSF had no role in doing that. You might also note that WSF left the WCHE as soon as their three-year contract expired.
And I am thankful to my former friend of BOU! (Bowhunters Of Utah)
Kyle--ya think I can be a MO-FO when it comes to facts and cut-n-paste....
gbell was my mentor-----
Peay to Play used everyone---including our beloved WSF---$$$$$$$$$$
Good luck, Robb
I finally had time to drop back and read this entire Thread. For the love of God NVA, please don't try and Pass this off as a hunt. 26000 acres are hunted, the island Is as bald as the top of my head, add a spotter and guide With radios to the mix with a custom design .30 Cal high powered rifle and the animal has no advantage.
This shoot is what it is. A way for a rich dude to add a new Set of big antlers to the wall.
For years I have been expecting you guys to (figuratively) burn their HQ down. But it seems to get worse. When I drew a paunsagaunt archery deer tag in 2011 I looked at a list of all the private and conservation permits there and I was shocked.
You're right though, the average hunter in UT has no say in what the DWR is doing. SFW is pulling the strings from every angle and that ain't about to change.
Between SFW and the state trying to get rid of all Federal land management within its borders, UT is leading the way back to the Robin Hood era of game management, i.e. Wealth & Privilege = Hunting Rights
If they state succeeds at kicking the BLM and FS out, I won't be surprised if within a couple of decades the allocations will be reversed: Most tags will be auctioned and a few hundred will be set aside to be raffled among the peasants.
Goes by the handle "NickJ1980"
I certainly hope your unemployment checks continue and that you get to spend some time on the Utah State Big Game site so that you can increase the value of your post's in the future as it is obvious your Reefer Legal mind set is not really of any factual presentation.
Happy Easter 'Alaskan Gold'----cough--cough---
Good Luck, Robb
Uhhhhh, speculation? SFW is by far the most scandalous wildlife org in the western US. They have been leaving a laundry list of scandals & corruption wherever they go for 15 years.
These articles include many facts and details. Some of these are the ones I used in my appeal to KTVK to get the media coverage that kept this Utah BS model out of Arizona in 2012. SFW leaves no shortage of dirt in their wake. Take your pick:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arizona-Sportsmen-Against-Hb-2072/274702462612489
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us/auctions-introduce-market-forces-to-conservation-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=1&
http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/columnists/group-seeking-privatized-wildlife-spreading-misinformation/article_dfb5fe10-8570-11e1-99d1-0019bb2963f4.html
http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/columnists/group-seeking-privatized-wildlife-spreading-misinformation/article_dfb5fe10-8570-11e1-99d1-0019bb2963f4.html
http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html
http://www.montanasportsmenalliance.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/NRA-press-release.pdf
http://www.azgfc.org/readme.htm
http://www.azfamily.com/news/cruz/?more=y&c=y
http://www.hcn.org/blogs/range/sportsmen-stab-theodore-roosevelt-in-the-back
Good one!! haha I may borrow 'em!
Good luck, Robb
Last year I calculated the number of Pauns archery deer tags that ended up on the auction block and I stopped counting at 87%. There are likely even more than that. I counted all the ones that were advertised publicly.
