columbia blacktail
Mule Deer
What state would be the best option for a diy Columbia blacktail hunt?I would need a place with a lot of public ground for my hunt.I see a lot of nice blacktail coming from north Ca.Are tags there otc?I tried to get out to Oregon this past Nov,but didn't have enough time to plan.I have plenty of time now and figuring out a state that would give me good odds is my 1st step.I'm not looking at this as a trophy hunt but more interested in a state with good numbers and plenty of public ground to hunt them on.I went to POW last year,and kind of have a little bit of blacktail addiction going on.It was a super fun hunt in country that is way different then I'm use to hunting in.Plus they are great eating
California. Period. Washington and Oregon are tough self guided due to low visibility and dense vegetation on public ground.
The California hunt, although technically a CBT hunt, will not be what I consider to be a "classic" blacktail hunt. The terrain and vegetation are much different from the rainforests of the Pacific Northwest. The racks are bigger as well. California deer don't "color up" their antlers like rainforest bucks and look to me like small mule deer.
FYI: over the counter hunting permits are the rule for CBT. All three states offer them. There are draw tags available for some of the "premium" areas.
I have 3 California DIY hunts under my belt. I finally got my buck in Oregon, and he is more handsome than any I saw further south.
If you want a genetically true Columbian Blacktail check the P&Y/B&C websites for the boundaries. Some hybrids are killed that are really Mulies.
Genetic DNA tests are now being done to confirm boundaries! There is a full article on this in the current B&C magazine! Check it out! Good luck! C
Trinity's, and a few others in NorCal can offer a great DIY hunt for you...As Charlie pointed out, are you looking for a 'true' Columbia Blacktail?
A Oregon late season hunt in the Rut is another good one...
Oregon is better managed in my opinion hence better opportunity's and animals..prepair for rain and wet brush and use a tracking device (Etracs) its that thick in spots and you can get turned around so very easy in the deep dark forests..or find a nice new clearcut and sit on it like the Halibut one said there much better looking than the (dry) California blacktail and in my opinion its a differant animal then the (wet) Columbia blacktail or the "gray ghost" and the farther north the more color to the antlers in most cases
the other day someone reminded my that there are some exceptional blacktail on joint base Lewis McCord in WA ..Ive seen more then a few dandys but never hunted it.. I always go East(dry)you just have to jump through the hoops MikeC
Genetics or otherwise, I consider the blacktail to be a rainforest dweller. If you are not in the rainforest, you are having a totally different hunt for what is apparently arbitrarily classified as the same animal.
For me, it's about the means, methods, and habitat more so than the antler size and genetics as far as determining what's what. I killed an elk once on an island in the pacific where it rains almost every day. He was enormous in body and small in antler and was a Roosevelt elk in every way.... Except his ancestry.
All that said, I've tried the California "loop hole" myself and would recommend it to anyone wanting a DIY blacktail.
I would say Oregon. I've hunted in California for last couple decades. Mostly in B and C units and its a tough bow hunt. Season dates are early and usually dry and hot. You can pattern deer and make stalks but I would rather be in southern Oregon closer to the rut. Just my 2cents. Good luck wherever you go.
here is a link to the Deer zone maps in CA. if you are looking for an archery hunt you can get an "AO" tag over the counter here and hunt multiple zones during that zones season so you can hunt from mid July into September. B zones have some good public land. Ike gave you a great place to look too. use the link for more info.
Good luck
I saw this Oregon buck posted from a taxidermist there. Very impressive.
"If you want a genetically true Columbian Blacktail check the P&Y/B&C websites for the boundaries. Some hybrids are killed that are really Mulies. Genetic DNA tests are now being done to confirm boundaries! There is a full article on this in the current B&C magazine!"
What I found interesting that out of all the deer tested from the coast to the eastern state line in i believe the same article or a similar one that was posted in Pope and Young magazine, showed there were almost as many "Hybrids" along the coast west of the Highway/boundary, as theyre are east of the line. The article also said any blacktail killed west of the boundary if questionable could be DNA tested for purity. this was from Washington down to Nor-Cal. So based upon the article you could be hunting far west of the boundary and kill a hybrid. That being said if it acts like a blacktail, looks like a blacktail, has a black tail you call it whatever you want unless youre a pope and younger and beleive deer dont cross roads and evolve to new areas over time.
The good news is some pope and youngers are working at getting "hybrids" a species catagory of their own as they dont resemble muleys at all and are closer related and or more blacktail excluding some tested near the passes along the x-zones which are muleys (this was also pointed out in the article I read in the article).
What trkyslr said plus the Oregon "Benchleg" blacktails are very similar to the Sierra blacktails. Both body characteristics and antler growth. They call them blacktails but down in CA somehow they get classified as a muley. But that's a whole other topic. No deer here in CA I would hunt oregon or Washington :)
Sorry Chris but I have to defend my passion here... I'll keep this brief as I don't want to hijack this thread.
The boundary you question is for B&C and P&Y Club record keeping purposes only. No doubt, wild animals wander. The DNA study is independent and supports this boundary. I don't know what article you're talking about but your statement is misleading... the major concentration of hybrids exists east of the line. The line errors on the smaller deer.
Simply put, you can call your deer whatever you want... If you want to challenge the category for record keeping purposes, a simple DNA test will solve the issue. Let biology and science resolve this for you...
Ed F
Do you want a big one, or just "check the box"?
Any of the B-zones during general season will produce a good DIY hunt for meat bucks plus you can combine with black bear. Late season rut hunts produce opportunities at trophies.
Ed, and I have to defend my passion as well as I hunt and live with these deer every day of my life and don’t make assumptions without knowledge like some do from even the other side of the country… im not debating the purposes of the record keeping at all. If pope and young and boone crocket wants to say that that is their right,,, If I call a zebra a giraffe and it’s a zebra its my right to call it whatever I want just the same,,, See above pics as the first four are reported Columbian blacktails from west of the boundary and the next two deer (pic 5 and 6) are just east of the boundary.. look dang near the same or closely related to me… then you have a mule deer pic, which would be number 7 pic (below). Saying the deer in pics 5 and 6 are a mule deer is an absolute joke. That’s why hopefully soon another species category will be created as entering deer 5 and 6 as a mule deer isn’t fair as they can’t even compete against a muley in the books. The article I’m referring to is at home and has a girl on the cover with a big whitetail. Trust me I’ve read it several times and I was surprised of how many “hybrids” are to the west of the boundary. And regarding the simple DNA testing it has been done also with the involvement of fish and wildlife, so with that see attached pic and per their results I’ll let biology and science resolve this and not a passable hwy as deer 5 and 6 were in the red zone labeled ‘Columbian blacktail’ deer. ;-) You’re not the only passionate one about these deer.
And to not name names but a good friend of both of us whos hunted these "hybrids" has said these deer are more blacktail then mule deer. he even said he has killed the same aged 'true' blacktails west of the boundary which had bigger racks and skulls.. just saying you spend time with these deer you will see they are not a mule deer and see their true color or tails.
Oh here's the mule deer pic I refered to for comparison
All in all I think a new species catagory for "hybrids" would solve and stop a lot of the debate. Until then I'll call a deer what it is by its appearance.
Here is my California Black tail from North West near Blocksburg
Awesome blackie kickstand!
Jf that's a true hybrid... To the OP sorry for hijacking your thread but as you can see some us our passionate about the deer we hunt.
Minimum Entry level for a Typical, Columbian Blacktail deer is 95 inches and the minimum entry level for a Typical Mule deer is 145. There is currently no "hybrid" category in the P&Y record books.
Columbian Blacktails are named after the Columbia River drainage and has nothing to do with these Mulie hybrids.
DNA tests are now available and used by the Record books to keep the categories pure.
PS: I just heard of a guy who shot a world record Coues deer in Oklahoma! Way cool!
Agree with everything you said Charlie but didn't hear about the coues from Oklahoma.... If I would have known there were coues in Oklahoma I might have hunted them instead of the whitetails (Odocoileus virginianus) bucks. ;-)
Drnaln I have a friend that drew and shot a Roosevelt Elk a little east of I 5 which would make it a Rocky Mountain by B@C and PY. It was a Roosevelt draw for California and they will recognize it but not B@C and PY. Will they DNA test and re certify Elk as well
Joe that's a spike. Can't shoot them here unless yur name is Ted.
Posted this guy before. Lake county Blacktail.
Here's a buck within minutes of Sacramento Capitol where there is an absence of deer according to our state. A friend has a picture of a double drop tined buck there.
Here's another California Blacktail. Fair Oaks BLVD.
Sorry about high jacking a Blacktail thread with an elk photo! David
Oh my... here we go again. Sorry mixed bag...
I'm only replying to clarify a few things. Chris you did bash P&Y and that is the only reason I commented... P&Y is doing the DNA testing. It's voluntary and costs $100, paid by the hunter. Right now, it only has to be 80% pure for it to be accepted into the records program, regardless of the boundary line. Also, from what I heard from the lead researcher doing the DNA testing, the DNA difference between Mule deer and Columbia Blacktail deer is very distinguishable... the difference between Whitetail deer and Couse Whitetail deer is very close... but technology is advancing and they can do it... it's just more work.
With that being said... Chris, I will offer to pay the $100 DNA fee so that we can prove that you are right once and for all... please take me up on this offer so we can live in peace on these Columbia Blacktail threads... Ed F
Ok. Soooo If they are insisting on DNA testing of blacktails to enter them into the book then I insist on them removing all bucks from the book that were entered prior to line changes and DNA tests. If they do not do that then all DNA tested buck will be competing with mostly benchlegs that were entered before lines were established or DNA testing requirement. Another thing that has not been mentioned in this thread is that biological differences can establish whether or not a buck is a benchleg or hybrid . Mainly this is the size of the tarsal gland as the blacktail gland is much smaller than the mule deer gland. Like an inch or more difference if I remember correctly. But definitely significant.
God bless, Steve
Here is a decent Columbian Blacktail taken in B.C
Get an AO (archery only) tag in CA, which is OTC, and you can hunt with a bow from the 2nd Saturday in July to the last weekend of Oct. in the western half of the state (A and B zones). You could also hunt all the D zones but that would be the areas in question of whether true Columbian blacktail or not. Also you can get 2 tags in CA.
Come to the rainforests of Oregon.
ORarcher after hunting parts of CA in 100 degree heat, that looks very tempting!!!
Ed, "Bash" I dont see I bashed pope and young (maybe disagree) but thats my opinion and everyone has one.
Im not claiming that these deer are %100 pure columbian blacktails and beleive I never have. For all I know some may be some maybe not. Im actually gonna have Zack collect DNA from one or two just to help with the studies as I would like to see something be done. My issue is that these deer if a "hybrid" (according to pope and young and boone crockett) are a lot closer to blacktails then muleys, a lot! C'mon Ed look at pics 5 and 6, you cant tell me they closer resemble a mule deer then a blacktail. I bet if I collected several pics of these deer just east and west of the boundary, mixed them up, you and others could not clearly identify which side of the boundary they all came from. If so you must have a super human godly animal birthing tracking device implanted into your sixth sense. Take this as a joke not a bash buddy ;-) so to automatically throw them into another species book of which they dont physically fit in is ridiculous imo. I know there has to be a line and the DNA is a start but it doesnt solve the issue that just cuz theyre not 100% blacktails they're a mule deer. Why not DNA test a buck that someone is trying to enter as Mule deer and when the results show its not 100% muley just throw it into the blacktail section? whats the reason because thats what the two books are doing? I see if a hybrid catagory was made and to include the DNA testing this would deff solve a lot of these bs issues and we'd all be happier.
Then maybe we can start a Private Lands Buck and Public Lands Buck category...Where will it end! Good gawd...
That's why I'm pretty much done with it all...Need my Sitka and I can call it good! Carry on...
I want to kill one of Chris and Joe's Muleyblack yardbucks! I dont care what they are. Tails are tails and parts is parts!
I want to kill one of Chris and Joe's Muleyblack yardbucks! I dont care what they are. Tails are tails and parts is parts!
agreed Ike, but it gets old by the bookers (and its always the same few) when I kill a nice deer and call it what I want for what it appears as they make the usual muley comments... I praise both clubs and support them for what they do, I jst disagree with this one thing for my own reasons and it shouldnt make me an enemy to them. Sorry if P&Y and B&C isnt my bible.
thats the spirit Nate,, You are a good man.. you are welcome at my campfire anytime!
Tails don't get measured and the Racks are a whole lot closer to Mule deer and that's what's entered in the books. I know you agree your deer are not Columbian Blacktails but the minimum entry number is 50 inches apart from Mulies.
Take Ed up on his offer and let's all learn from it. It would be a very educational and interesting thread for all.
PS: I do see your dilemma and you should work towards some solution but the true Columbian Blacktail is a separate specie. See orarcheryboy's picture above Columbian Blacktail country, Rain, Mountains and Moss!
Sweet. Ill bring my record book. Lol.
That's funny.... I see it the other way around... it's the same few. I'm just trying to provide some facts about the P&Y Club. No disrespect to you or your deer. To each his own. Ed F
Holy smokes, wasn't trying to start a huge debate.So is there much public hunting ground in N.Cal?How about huntable diy land in Oregon.Cal. sounds interesting with the length of season and the early start
mixed bag there is lots of public land to hunt in CA. I posted earlier in the thread with a link the the CA DFW website that breaks down each deer zone here. if you click on a specific zone it will give you information about the zone the land access and it even breaks down general areas by county. take all that information with a grain of salt, its just a guideline, but will get you going in the right direction if you chose to hunt here. The B zones (B-1 through B-6) have good land access. Lots of roads if you want to hunt that way, or good wilderness areas if you want to hunt on foot. Good luck where ever you end up going!
Ed, Zach and I took some samples from my 2013 buck. we sent them in to have them tested and will get the results back eventually. And I did pay the $100 fee. Hey Nate make sure your bow is dialed in August.
Great news! This DNA testing sounds like a great way to effect change if needed. Good work guys! C
Chris, those deer that you shoot over on your side of the valley are definitely not the same critters that we have over here on the west side. I don't think using the tail as a defining characteristic is all that accurate either. Heck, I've seen deer on the Devil's Garden with tails that look like a blacktail's but they are for sure not a pure strain of that species. If you question my credibility I'll have you know that last night I stayed at a Holiday Inn. ;)
That being said, I agree that those bucks shouldn't be lumped into the Mule Deer category either so I'm not really sure what the answer is. I'm curious to see what the DNA results come back with as well.
I live in NorCal, Mendocino County. If you want some quality public land options here and there are lots, shoot me a message.
DW, that was just one of the characteristics, If I was gonna be more detailed I’d also add how these deer (mature 4.5 years or older) nose to eye measurements are an average of 6 3/8- 6 5/8 where a mature muley is usually 7 ¼” and up. This info from several taxidermists in this area and central valley. Also the ears on these bucks are much shorter then muleys, weight wise these (mature) deer are 120 pound on the hoof average in summertime and 180 pound on the hoof average in November. Ive seen a very few old bruisers around 200. I know that’s a lot less then most mule deer as the ones Ive been around, killed, and humped out were much heavier. Probably 30% bigger on the average. This is just physical descriptors not including the differences in habits and forage.
Like I said Im not arguing these are different deer but as you said they shouldnt be lumped in with the much larger bodied and racked mule deer in books. I think the DNA will help but without another species catagory whether its called "hybrid", "inland", "sierra" or whatever theyre will still be debate, not that theyre not 100% columbian blacktails but that theyre not a mule deer, which is obvious.
If you want a real Blacktail hunt go hunt them in the rainforest. Totally different hunt than California. Don't expect it to be easy though, it will be cold and wet(constant rain) and it is very thick, just seeing a nice buck is tough.
For the OP, I personally would go to OR. CA's deer herd is down ~50% over the past 25 years, and public land hunting here can be really difficult due to very low deer densities. OR's deer are better managed and you can more readily hunt the rut there. You can bait in OR as well if you are into that. Don't get caught up in the rain forest vs. more open country debate, hunt them in the country where you feel most comfortable (glassing/spot & stalk versus tree stands). Both CA and OR have the same deer in both types of habitat.
The DNA tests referenced above will be really interesting. Chris and Joe regularly kill some crushers that have many more characteristics in common with the coastal blacktails I am familiar with than mule deer, but they also have some characteristics that denote some being hybrids. Examples include longer chassis on some of the bucks, and in Chris's pictures above the 5th buck's tail is skinny and narrower at the top than the bottom (whereas the deer I am familiar with have tails that taper from the base to the tip), and it looks like you can see the white on the side edges of the tail from almost straight behind (whereas you need to be almost broadside on the deer I'm familiar with to see the white on the underside of the tail). All that said, I have not spent enough time around blacktail throughout their range to determine what is regional variation and what is an indication of a hybrid. I do know the deer near the OR border are put together differently than the ones I am used to hunting in Mendocino County.
I really don't know about California, but we sure as hell have plenty if opprotunity here in Oregon !!
Some of the deer we hunt here can cross a two lane road and become a friggin " Mule Deer " Think about that one ??
Willieboat: Not any more just do the DNA test! Forensic results will nullify road crossers:) These are the best of times and the worst of times!
But clearly... "it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness. "
"Some of the deer we hunt here can cross a two lane road and become a friggin " Mule Deer " Think about that one ??"
They don't become a mule deer, they just cease being considered Columbia blacktail for record-keeping purposes absent DNA evidence that says otherwise. B&C (whose record-keeping system was adopted by P&Y) readily recognizes that the boundaries as drawn will result in some deserving specimens being excluded to maintain for the betterment of the record book.
North American 30 sounds better then 29 ;-)
"North American 30 sounds better than 29" Yeah plus it gives those guys who already have it something to do.... :)
Hunting those blacktails in southern oregon is some of the best hunting I have had. Been after them on both sides of I-5 and to me it was a blacktail unless it bounced when it ran....
40 years ago my family got together for a family reunion. 3 of the men started "discussing" the weight of a hog that one of them killed. After a few minutes it became so heated that one of my uncles went home to get his gun so he could shoot his brother. Their mother had a massive heart attack while he was gone and the ambulance rushed her to the hospital.
I see that same spirit still lives here. Mike
.....as for making them (hybrids) their own separate species......in my opinion, it will never happen.
From this mag as I mentioned... Just info for guys interested in learning.
As I mentioned above I was surprised by the amount (nearly 50%+-) of deer tested west of the both the book and DNA boundary came up as "hybrids" in the test. So it be interesting if a giant racked blacktail like the on DL posted a pic of is killed if it wi be tested as they say. Not trying to stir the pot just informing others of what's going on with this dna issue.
Cmon Ed nm 30 be fun.... It would clear this up, generate more revenue, add another challenge for some, and I know a couple guys who'd help you out on scratching that one off the list for Ya.
.....it won't happen, Chris. (this is Roy, BTW) Just like the major push back in the day to list the Flordia Keys whitetail deer as a separate species. B&C will not create a "new" species that is a product of a hybrid.
Get your deer tested and enter it under the results of the test. Problem solved.
Ah Roy didn't look long enough... My mistake on the wrong bow hunter ;-) I would but no hybrid catagory. And we'd help you as well if need be just like the bird buddy.
A lot of guys hunting around the Blacktail boundaries have beat this issue to death for years! Now they have a way to prove themselves right & give the critters they took a spot in the record books! A few guys will spend the $100 to get their deer tested but a lot will just sit around & complain some more! David
" I would but no hybrid catagory."
CBH!
