I still have the little booklet they used to give out ( prior to the Computer age ), and I will tell you, the Deer in San Diego County looked identical to the Deer in Orange County, and identical to Los Angelas - Santa Barbara, and San Luis Obispo counties to me.
So to my eyes considering the map in tkyslrs post, the A Zone Coastal "Yellow" Deer were identical to the dark blue coastal San Diego/Orange/San Bernadino county areas.
They all taste just like chicken, though.
;^)
Amazingly enough, there is a stark contrast in the deer between here and just a dozen miles to the south or east. The tails are different, the faces look different, and most strikingly, the bodies of the deer are much larger up here than the burro deer.
But the difference in habitat is bigger than the deer. I'm up at 5500 ft in pine/oak forest. Down a few thousand feet in the desert, I shot a 2.5 year old deer that gave me almost exactly the same poundage meat as a 1.5 year old shot up here. The difference transcends to the does as well. They're the same animals, but very different.
Those northeast San Diego desert deer aren't pure burro either. I've been scouting the deer east of Palm Springs and they're even different. I'm looking forward to hunting pure burro deer this November. Passed up my A22 tag this year to ensure I can still hunt out there if I tag out locally.
I don't know how they keep tabs on the deer in the Northern D zones. So much of that country is homogenous. It's not like you go from alpine to Mohave desert in a few miles like you do down here.
So call it what it is, a hybrid or as CA classified 'em a alternative lol...
There, I'm having a great day Joe and didn't even have to take 'ass shots' of my deer to do it..If it doesn't matter that is..
Relax people, it is what it is...Like Joe said himself, what difference does it make?!? Well it must to him if you have to take tail pictures...Great bucks, non the less!
:-)
Nice post Joe...I got birds to clean!
I used to hunt a lot at Fort Hunter Ligget. Back in the day, July was Archery, August was gun. Then when you went back for some Boar hunting in the winter, the deer hide was darker and fuller, and the tails were darker and more blackish. So, to my laymans eyes, I still could not deciper the tail pattern chart for a 100% certainty.
I just called them Coastal Blacktail.
Of course is it difficult to focus on a tail when the deer is stouting away from you at Mach 1.
;^)
Nothing like Archery hunting Zone A when it is 124 degrees in the shade at Paso Robles !!!
I am not going to say with certainty that showing white means it is a hybrid or a deer having a typical blacktail tail means it isn't - focusing on one characteristic like that IMO is folly. I'm pretty content to leave it that Chris and Joe kill some really big and very unique bucks and I look forward to their threads each year regardless of their genetics.
Wait that didn't sound quite right...
No doubt about that!
One year took a winter photo of triplet whitetails fawns at my backyard feeder (I assume they were triplets for they hung with the same doe all summer and fall) but anyhow, they are standing side my side and the three had distinctly different tail coloration... One had lots of black, one had lots less black and the other in between... I understand we're talk'n two different species of deer, but still the same concept...
adam's Link
I had the chance to hunt in D-zone this archery season, and I did not pay much attention to the tail coloring (more interested in the headgear!) however there was a notable difference in the coloring ranging from a reddish coat to a light gray color. All in the same general area, not sure if it is food (you would think it would be the same)Or if they were in fact blacktail and Mule deer in the same area (entirely possible). Not that any of that matters it was just interesting to me, I have spent most of my time hunting in the B-Zones so it was neat to see the different area and deer.
Fantastic Bucks in the pics above!! Anyone should be very proud and happy to wrap their tags around them no matter what a record book or zone defines them as!
Adam
Up between Willows and Williams, there is actually a small herd of pronghorn. Weirdest thing ever to see on I-5...you do a double-take every time!
Best of Luck, Jeff
Growing up in 'the real Northern CA,' The State of Jefferson you could watch them come across I5 from the B-zones and instantly turn into a Hybrid...Lol
Same from the Oregon Border!
WT would actually do well in the San Joaquin valley. Especially along the Sacramento river.
There are deer in some areas in the Central Valley but very few. By and large agriculture and deer do not mix other than on the fringes. We don't have the woodlots interspersed among the ag that exist in the midwest, so there is just too much area with no cover to hold deer.
Where I hunt, the summer coats are reddish, but you can generally tell a buck from a doe just based on the color of the hides, with the bucks being lighter in color (more tan than red). Occasionally deer will shed their summer coat before their velvet making them appear gray.
Like Matt was saying about the color change and it was only mid-August....
that's cool about them pronghorn on the I5; I've been up & down there several times but have never seen any. I'll have to keep my eyes open next time.
I've seen some out on the Carrizo plain (elk too). That was a trip; just didn't seem real that they would be there.
As for the bucks taken in the other thread from some D zones......simply put; they are big ol' CA bucks! Unless they want to enter them in one of the respective record books, they're just that....big ol' CA bucks. JMO
Guys kill awesome Bucks in the Western Sierra D Zones (JH) all the time, but you never see him/them trying so hard to convince everyone its one species or another...
It's just a great Buck, as it should be...
I have also watched deer cross from the eastern side of I-5 (C-zone) to the western side (B-zone) and vice-versa.
Adam
Anyone else think of a Prius when they hear the word hybrid?? Couldn't have came up with a better name?? JMO
What's a "benchleg" Oregon Blacktail? They have Cascades and across I5, Blacktail...Pretty simple!
It's also ironic how our deer don't breed like they're supposed to in California.
There is a process. As a B&C measures I am one of the official DNA collectors for them at the hunter's expense. Pm me for more info.
Joe:
I agree......I hate the "hybrid" term too. :)
There are 100-percent definitive ways of identifying animals currently available. As for everyone's opinion on this subject, they will most likely never change based on worthless drawings and piss-poor science and maps by CA Fish and Game. Please do everyone a favor and stop using those diagrams as valid forms of education for either side.
As CBH records chairman and a P&Y measurer, I would love to see every archery-killed buck scored and entered into our records program so that one day we can have actual science-based data instead of hypothetical, Internet pissing matches. The classification of species is far less important to me than the involvement in gathering information. If anyone would like to help collect that data, please let me know and I will be the first to help as I have already done for several before.
You midwest and eastern guys are lucky not to have our extremely important problems here on the west coast...
The 'pissing matches' would not be, if year in and year out we did not have guys shoving a species down our throats that they may, or may not be killing...It'll work on some of the Eastern guys, but not a lot of us that actually live here and hunt the same Bucks...JMO
Like I said, I know other guys killing great and unique Bucks in the lower D-zones (DL) and not claiming it be one or a other...Maybe it's a agenda or LMS, who knows...
And Zack as far as Whitetails go, if you look at their info, they have some sub-species, just maybe not all in one state that we have...Lol
B&C had an article in "Fair Chase" a few years ago which plotted the genetics of a large sample of Oregon bucks that was really interesting. I believe the article categorize deer in the sample as 20% or less mule deer (blacktail), 20% or less blacktail (mule deer), and those in between (closer to 50%/50%). What it showed is there were a very few bucks that were more than 20%+ mule deer all the way to the coast and more mule deer-influenced specimens (20%-80% mule deer) infiltration into the blacktail side of the line than I would have thought, but in general the somewhat arbitrary line generally served its purpose.
In CA we have the Central Valley which is a formidable geographic barrier along most of its length, and likely limits the "genetic drift" seen in Oregon. If I had to make an inference from the Oregon diagram (which admittedly is dangerous), I highly doubt there are deer that would genetically map as blacktail east of highway 5 other than perhaps between Redding and Mt. Shasta.
In my bowhunting career I have had the good fortune to not only hunt Colombian Blacktails but to truly say I cut my teeth hunting them. Having had the good fortune to take them in diverse habitats from south of the bay, north of the bay to our once famed wilderness areas on the north coast. Actually before it was cool I have taken Colombian Blacktails in each of the wilderness areas that hold them. It was kind of my California poor boy slam.
For the sportsman who has studied deer, their habits, traits, personality and other traits that define them. I believe it is clear what species you are hunting based on how that deer runs his life. Plain and simple a Colombian Blacktail does not act like a Mule Deer and vise versa. I would actually say that a Colombian Blacktail is more closely related to a Coues Whitetail than a Mule Deer from a behavior standpoint.
I don't need a DNA swab to tell me what I'm hunting, the deer will tell me based on his actions.
The sad thing is that the bucks who are caught in the middle actually exhibit the weak traits of each species. That should be evident to any California hunter simply based on the amount of habitat and the lack of deer.
Today American's seem to have forgotten that evolution is a very slowww process. In my lifetime I am not arrogant enough to say that the record keeping organizations and the biology behind them at the time they were created is no longer relevant. It is perfectly relevant today as it was 100 years ago.
The difference today is that even the slow kids who finished last get a trophy at the local ball park and the whole society seems to think they are entitled to one too.
Bowhunting is hard, spend as much time in the field as you can. Enjoy it and good things will happen. The good things just may not be things you thought you were there for.
Good Luck to Everyone this season !
Columbia Blacktail Deer (typical) 125 90 95 45 Columbia Blacktail Deer (non-typical) 140 110 115 50 Cascade Blacktail Deer (typical) 125 90 95 45 Cascade Blacktail Deer (non-typical) 140 110 115 50 Western Blacktail Deer (typical) 110 90 90 40 Western Blacktail Deer (non-typical) 130 110 110 45
2.Hybrids between different subspecies within a species (such as between the Bengal tiger and Siberian tiger) are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different species within the same genus (such as between lions and tigers) are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different genera (such as between sheep and goats) are known as intergeneric hybrids. Extremely rare interfamilial hybrids have been known to occur (such as the guineafowl hybrids).[4] No interordinal (between different orders) animal hybrids are known.
Besides, if Hybrids were sterile why do we see so many Prius's?
Point is, we can't have a state this size with the species we have and not have them cross the line...Except maybe on the coast and that's a maybe!
Just because a 'water color' map tells you what they think was there, just isn't the case...To claim it's a 'specific' species is a bit of a stretch!
I read somewhere that the blacktails came first and it was thought that muleys descended from a white tail-blacktail cross.
Ike, I had read the same thing in regards to that Muleys are from blacktails and whities. But maybe it's just like anything else written it's false or true depending upon which koolaid you're drinking. Not that it matters but Id like to hear the truth on this one. No matter what people think there is one things certain is Cali has great deer far and wide. Cheers!
My reference above was in regard to the taxonomical grouping (all mule deer and blacktail are Odocoileus hemionus), not the evolution of the species. Even though it is general held that blacktail preceded mule deer, blacktail deer are categorized as a sub-species of mule deer in the literature I have seen.
Not exactly true Ike, here in Ohio we have a mongral bunch of whitetails... Look at a map of the USA and see how Ohio is located. You can be standing on the banks of the river, and be considered in the MidWest, yet just a stones throw away is considered the east...
Ohio’s whitetail population was believed to have been exterminated by 1903 and non-existent until 1923 and in the 1920s and '30s, a limited restocking program began as well as the natural migration of deer from surrounding states, so at least 3 different subspecies funneled in from different directions, and depending on which book or map you read, these three subspecies that overlap in this state, are the Virginia from the south “Odocoileus virginianus virginianus”, the northern woodland whitetail, “Odocoileus virginianus borealis”, from the northeast, and the Dakota whitetail, “Odocoileus virginianus dakotensis”, from the northwest.
I lived near a major deer processing plant and its not uncommon to see 50 to 100 dead deer from across the state at one time during gun-season waiting to be processed and it’s clear to see different characteristics of subspecies in some of these animals. Different colors and shades of red and grey, shorter leggs, longer legs, different colored tails, etc...
"Zbone, don't wake pope and young from their resting spots with this info or they'll start setting boundaries .... .then youll be in same predicament Cali is in only if you care about their record book and where your deer sits."
So, everyone in Cali that belongs to P&Y is only in it for scores....I did not know this! That's a stretch even for you TS, come on, really?!?
I joined P&Y to support the sport of Archery...If a animal makes it great, if not, no biggie....I do like the 'Species' listed by P&Y and made it a goal to try and take each Deer 'Species' they list....I've been fortunate that so far all my Deer make the P&Y minimum except for the Columbian Whitetail....
I guess I should be hammering P&Y to get that listed damn it....I think now we see the agenda of the Amador Boys! Unbelievable....
Don't think I was the only one, but no biggie...Glad it was cleared up! You're right about needing to chase something bigger than a Dove, although it's been a outstanding season so far...
Good luck to you and Joe on the Elk hunt!
