Discuss our Live Kansas Deer Hunt
Whitetail Deer
PAT's in a "TREE" right now I'd bet! Go Get'm Pat!
Good luck Pat. Kill a big one.
I'm off to McAlester AAP next week and up to Lonny's on the 17th. The rut should be kicking into full swing. Big boys will be cruisin.
Good luck Pat, I am heading to KS Nov 12 for a weeks hunt in SE KS. Will be interesting to see how the fullmoon impacts your sightings, if at all, and the time of day you are seeing big bucks cruising. Lets pray for cold and no wind :)
I always look forward to this! I love it!
Pat,
Good luck. I too look forward to this every year and will be checking your updates daily.
What camera will you be taping with on this hunt??
What time did the update get posted yesterday? Wonder if Pat stuck one...
PAT---out of curiosity---do the bucks in that area always have "weak" brow tine length?
Your deer photos in this hunt and the deer of the past all seem weak in "brows". So I was just wondering if that was a normal character in the bucks in that area you hunt?..Get a Big One...the time is getting "right"!
Good luck to ya Pat try to blow some cool air from NC to ya been pretty chilly.
Is it me or is the 11/5 second deer picture a button buck?
elkmo
3rd week Pat....and you`ll get rid of this 70 degree weather..Mornings will still be good..Good luck
Man Pat,,If its you that brings this lousy warm weather durring rut each year-- we'l need to disscuss a new whitetail hunting destination for you.lol
If I have to listen to another "is'nt our weather just great" or "indian summer!" Im gonna go postal! ok done venting.
Its exactly why I moved our hunt back a week. The last two years were so warm on Nov 5-12 that I just couldn't take it anymore. Last year, I was wearing t shirts to my stands and sweating so badly that I could ring out my shirt. Next week looks real good, dropping to 50, the bucks should be flying.
"Is it me or is the 11/5 second deer picture a button buck?"
I would agree with you elkmo/away, looks like a "nubber" to me too.
I get excited when Pat goes on these hunts. I opened up the site this morning and was like "Yes!!". We always get good video's and pictures and sometimes even a bloodtrailing challenge from these hunts.
Good luck Pat!!
Pat,
Don't worry about weather. That's a complete myth as I have spent many a day in frigid weather and seen as many deer as in warm weather.
Just be ready to kill another good one.
Remember love struck bucks could care less how hot it is...remember your teenage years.
Too bad the weather is getting warm again. If you had the hunt a week earlier you would've been in some ideal "cool" temps. But that's hunting. Good luck! The rut is going strong, all last week, from what I saw.
Pat: the last two years we had temps in the 80's during the first week at Cimarron. I asked Kent and Kent if they could turn the temp down last week. It was nice to hunt in high 20's/low 30's for a change.
I will post the buck I shot last week (177 Green) once I figure out how to do so. (Can anyone help me here?)
We seen some phenomenal bucks last week including a 200 class 10Pt. with at least a 30" outside spread.
Hope you tag him, LIVE...
The hunting at Cimarron is simply outstanding in every way including the genuine hospitality of Kent and Kent.
Thanks guys....
Jeff
Good luck, Pat!
I love the pics you post on your live hunts, could you also post some pics of the setups? I would love to see how hidden the stands are as that is always our struggle (in Kansas) to make them "blend in".
Thanks and good luck! Chris
Good luck, Pat!
I love the pics you post on your live hunts, could you also post some pics of the setups? I would love to see how hidden the stands are as that is always our struggle (in Kansas) to make them "blend in".
Thanks and good luck! Chris
Hmmmm--either technical difficulties or Pat tagged out last night...it was dead calm and cool last night here in KS..excellent night for the big boys to move...hopefully they are out bloodtrailing this morning...just my gut feeling
No update. I'm thinking they were up late last night celebrating another big buck down.
(que: crickets chirping.)
any wagers as to how big the critter Pat is probably gutting right now is?
If they are out trailing this morning I hope they didn`t get the heavy dense fog we had in SC kansas..heavy moisture on the ground almost as if it had rained..that would make things very difficult especially in the grass fields like they have in that area...
Search like crazy for that buck just in case, but my guess is that hit won't kill him. Too bad, but we all know this stuff happens even to the best of us occasionally.
I think it's a dead deer. I'd have a hard time believing that he didn't hit a lung. The problem is that it will not be an easy blood trail.
Betcha the next update is a picture of that buck on the ground.
Man that`s a tough call pat--if your sure ya got the penetration you mentioned then he`s dead..at least one lung with the possibility of both with the broadhead still in him moving around..bloodtrail is going to be very difficult but hopefully he`ll be bleeding out his mouth and giving ya something to work with....i`m thinking you`ll find him...for one ya didn`t push him--if ya got any lung at all he won`t go far...don`t beat yourself up on the shot..i think you`ll be suprised how far he "DIDN`T" go...
I think I would have to agree with Travis. That deer should be dead jus might be tough to find right away.
I too watched the video multiple times and I think it's a dead deer.
I think it boils down to whether or not he got both lungs- I just can't tell. With a one lung hit and high entrance, I don't think he'll have enough blood trail to find it (hope I'm wrong). With both lungs and a dedidicated tracking job, I think he'll have it.
I have watched the video several times..yes it looks a little far fwd but still in the lung area--problem is that is where the spine sits the deepest in the chest..and also the thickest bone..I hope ya got the penetration you thought ya got. i can see the arrow lunge back out of him when he is fix`n to jump the fence but it`s sure hard to tell how deep it went originally. What a beautiful buck--nice brows too. Big 8 points really trip my trigger
I just noticed something else I didn`t see the first times I watched the video---as soon as the buck is fix`n to land on the other side of the fence he does and double kick with his hind legs--notorious for happening on a heart shot..by golly I think he nailed him in the heart..check it out
I think you have a dead deer Pat.
If you need help Pat call us. My figures are 5,000 bowsiters would probably head straight out there to help find him. We could make a huge sweep
5000 * 10 ft apart = 50,000 ft of coverage
Whew hate to walk to the end of the line
Looks can be decieving but hopefully both lungs got punched. Good luck hope you find that beautiful animal.
travis..I noticed the leg kick, but feel its from the deer hitting the fence at the jump and trying to re-establish his balance.
I feel at best Pat may have caught the top of both lungs, unless he was lucky enough to catch the artery running along the spine. Tough call, lots of bone was hit for sure.
It's a tough call watching it on video since the deer is out of frame so quickly after the shot.
I would guess that he hit at least one lung. It seems like even if it was a bit to forward to go right down through the lungs towards the heart it would still hit the top of the near side lung at least. The problem is that we all know how far a deer with one lung hit can run before dying, if it dies at all. Add to that the fact that the high hit and no exit hole will make for a very sparse blood trail. Pat and his helpers are in for a very long tough tracking job.
This one would make a very difficult interactive blood trail challenge!! Hopefully Pat is documenting the tracking and finds his deer. I can smell the controversy during the challenge all ready!!
Seriously though, good luck Pat. I hope for a speedy, successful recovery.
I hope Pat and his crew give the buck the exhaustive search it deserves, and no doubt they will. But what I think I see is a hit behind the base of the neck, striking the top of the RIGHT front shoulder, and over top of the spine, with no penetration of the rib cage. If he hit one of the big arteries up there, the buck could possibly bleed out. But those kind of wounds seem to clot up pretty quickly. Hopefully the BH stayed in him.
I hope like heck this is all wrong and the buck is lying dead!
I bet the deer is dead and that he'll find it. Here's my thinking: - he didn't push the deer at all - All he needed to his is some lung or a good vein/artery
The deer probably stopped when he got out of site, bedded down, and died. Since Pat saw the deer running, he knows where to start the blood trail...
Best of luck with finding the buck.
Hard to tell if he got to the vitals on the video, it looks real high to me, I don't believe he got into the chest. if you look at point of impact, it almost looks like the arrow hits the scapula and then the arrow falls down the side of the deer as the deer runs off. I have watched the video at least 20 times and the last scene worries me. Look closely at what the arrow does from impact to then as the deer makes the jump over the fence. At the angle Pat is at and only 5 yards shot, if he penetrates the chest the arrow should be pointed down with fletching up. It is sideways after the fence jump. I really hope I am wrong and Pat finds this one.
It can't imagine at that steep of an angle that at least one lung (right lung) wasn't hit and quite possibly clipping the top of the left lung also. Best of luck! If it can be found, they'll find it.
Dead Deer but no Blood trail as there is not a exit hole to drain him out. Probaly layed down within 250 yards and died in that bed would be my guess. I made a simalar shot once but was able to watch the Deer bed down so I snuck out and came back 1 1/2 hours later. He was dead but had gotten up and turned around 180 degrees after I left.
gonna be a sparse blood trail but thats a dead deer!
One advantage in Pat`s favor is the guides know their habits in this area--escape routes ect. I know I have blood trailed several deer out of the same stand several times and 9 times out of 10 they take the same routes when hit..not always the case but true most of the time..there is nothing tougher than trailing a deer in that grass...very difficult.
I think that buck will live to see another day...unfortunately.
That's tough Pat. Told you deer move in warm weather!
I am in my worst slump I have missed 3 deer this year.
I hope I am wrong.
i had the exact same shot happen on a kentucky whitetail hunt. after the plane ride the bow shot the muzzys high and left about 8 inches compared to the field points. no target at camp meant shooting field tips at a plate into the dirt. my shot went clean through the buck into the dirt. i never found him due to no blood trail. i think you will find yours just due to the fact the arrow is still in him and near the vitals. hopefully you are using fixed blades for max cutting while wobbling around inside. i confident you will find yours. good luck.
BTW, there's typo in the URL on the 11/06/06 page, which prevents viewing the first video of the buck. Here's a link.
I really hate to say this but that deer is coyote dinner.That deer has many thick bedding areas & he is laying in the thickest of the bunch. He will be very hard to recover,my luck goes out to Pat.The shot would have been better 4 inches lower or 4 inches higher just not where it hit.
I'd bet that Pat is the proud new owner of a blood hound and a very tall racked 8 pointer.
Is there a local Deer Search near the hunting area? Bringing in a trained deer search dog could be a lifesaver if the initial search fails. Would the outfitter allow a dog on the hunting area for this purpose? Just an idea.
It`s illegal in KS to bloodtrail with dogs...
its tough to say with such limited footage. i have paused it upon contact and even then its hard. hell, it could have taken the artery that runs along the spine. without a doubt it took something vital, its in the front half of the deer. id say high left lung missing the right lung....deer might go the distance. going to be tough. good luck.
At that angle I don`t know if he could get the artery or not without blowing through the spine..here is a inside shot of the artery..click on link...but anything is possible
I think he hit "the void"....8*)
Thanks travis, I did not know that.
Yep--don`t see what the big deal is..i think it should be legal in my opinion..
I hunted the same stand last week that Pat shot the big 8. The area consists of linear hedge rows of thick pines 30-40 yards wide. I would estimate there are at least 1/2 mile in total length and run East/West and North/South with Pat being roughly in the middle.
The surrounding area is mainly farm land and to the North/West where the deer came out of it is primarily short prarie/grassland.
It appears the buck had him pegged before he shot which is concerning in that he may run past the thickest part of the area. If Pat hit partial lung and no heart/arteries they will be in for a long track even without blood. Kent and Kent are EXCELLENT trackers and know the land well. If the deer is dead even without blood they will find him even if it takes two solid days to comb miles around the area.
If he is dead, they will find him. GL Pat.....
"It`s illegal in KS to bloodtrail with dogs..."
Is pheasant season open? ;-)
That buck has gotta be DEAD never have I seen a buck hit in that manner and not be. I also think there might be more blood than we think esp. if the arrow penetrated out the bottom of the buck & then got pushed back through when he jumped hopefully im right. GOOD LUCK PAT !!
My bet is on zero blood, and a dead deer head after 2 days of seachering in 75 degs. days and yotes.
It happens! Better luck next time. That's my 2cents
I also think its dead!
Ive hit them next to the spine many times because I like hunting up high,I think you hit the main atery running along the spine. Congratulations,you will find him!
C'mon Pat....let's have it!!! My guess is 1 lung and they found him within a half mile due to not pushing him last night. we're waiting................!
I agree with those above. It's a dead deer. BUT it might be tough to find. Hopefully pick up some blood a ways down the trail.
Good luck!
Pat did you spend all day looking? Hopefully finding?
I would love to say that this deer is dead, but I just had this exact encounter just this past Saturday and this is eerie how similar the events were. I had an opportunity to take the buck that came in and attacked my buck from last year and I was able to capture some awesome video of him as he came in and bedded down and also got up to kick a 130 inch bucks but. Everything fell into place including the fact that I was able to turn this buck back to me with the True Talker as he was heading off to show up the younger buck. The buck circled downwind and came to 20 yards where he tore up a scrape just over my left shoulder. I spun the camera around, stood up(which I hate to do when shooting from a stand)and turned around to prepare for the shot. I came to full draw as the buck was hitting the scrape and when he turned to leave I tried to stop him with no luck. I let down, spun the camera around the other side of the tree along with my bow and came to full draw again. I had a weave of oak branches directly downwind of me but it was my only opening. I let the buck step into one of my only horizontal openings and once I saw that my arrow would clear I let it fly. The buck was only about 15 yards but he still reacted to the shot and ducked about 3 to 4 inches when I play it back. The shot was directly above the shoulder blade but below the spine, just like Pat's. I videod the deer as he sprinted up a small hill but was still in view. I thought he was going to go down because my first gut instinct on the shot was still good. Then the doubts set in. The buck started to walk off like nothing was wrong. He was looking around for does and smelling the ground like nothing happened. He was heading for a draw and I knew he would go in and bed down. I still thought there was a chance that he could be there if I slipped out and let him go until morning. That is what I did and when I was coming in first thing the next morning, I could see a doe and a nice buck on a hilltop about 400 yards from where I had placed the shot. When I put my binoculars on the buck, my heart sunk because I could tell that his frame was identical. I then gained some hope as I didn't see my fletching out of his shoulder since my arrow buried down to the edge of the fletching and I could see it as he walked off. Well I was soon to find out that the blood trail was poor but still able to follow, but when I got to his bed I found three quarters of my arrow from the fletching forward. He must have broken off the front quarter when he took off from the shot. There wasn't a speck of blood to be found after the deer bedded and pulled the arrow out. I had 4 other people and we searched everywhere for at least a half mile in each direction with no luck. I am still sick about it and I can only guess that I only got a loin shot. It is one of the worst things to swallow as I would have pulled off a crazy prediction that I made after last season. Not to mention it is probably the best quality video that I have ever filmed. All I can do is hunt that spot hoping for another opportunity. I doubt it will happen but I've got to try. I hope Pat's situation turns out different as his shot had more of a down angle than mine so hopefully he caught something. Good luck!
I don't think the long delay bodes well.....last few years, he was quick to provide updates. I really hope he finds the deer. Good luck Pat.
Assuming Pats take on penetration is correct, the deer is dead. The deer running with the arrow still in the lung cavity will kill him sure. Finding him without much blood will be another story.
Broke from fence row in about 175 from the stand. 250 yards away...Dead deer under thick brush but no blood trail. They will find it today.
When you pause at the hit, it looks good, but!
I have watched it in slow motion and I think that buck is dead. If the arrow did not come out the bottom it will be a tough blood trail but I do not think he will have went far.... However Pat is a little slow on his response today so I just hope he is keeping the suspense built up.
Sharpstick
Single lung hit. If he is lucky, he got the heart or major vessel. Hard to track in the prarie country. I had to crawl on my hands and knees for 2 hours last year there to find my blood trail.
he'll find it for sure. it dead and they will not quit without a recovery.
That is a recoverable deer. Shot looks questionable at first. Pause right before he clears the fence. Angle is ok to the opposite lung and the steep angle shows plenty of depth with the arrow.
Sure may be difficult, but they should find the deer since he wasn't pressured after the shot.
The arrow is clearly behind the left shoulder blade.It may be that it drove down and hit the right shoulder /leg bone.That would account for why the arrow did not blow through.My guess is that they will find him.
Buck is fine, hit all bone. Since the buck is alive and well except for a sore shoulder, Pat find another...good luck.
They found him alright - alive and well! Back to the hunt, Pat!
Is it just me or doe Pat always seem to have something exotic, crazy, or dangerous happen on his hunts? 8*)
Wow. I was sure that deer was dead...
Thunder, you are right: Pat always adds something: - Black mambas in his stand - Battling wits with THE old dugga boy - Now parasailing to track a wounded deer...
What's next?
Whew! I was on the side of finding him dead, but they found him live and well. What a relief. Gonna have to try that trailing technique myself sometime.
I offered a search party and Pat goes with a fancy dude with a plane. Who hoo , anyone can drive one of those things. JK Glad you found him dead or alive, good luck on the rest of your hunt.
So much for my theory.Sorry to hear you didnt get him but Im sure glad the buck survived and wasnt lost.
Was Pat wearing his safety harness on that thing
The next guy that gets a crack at him will be eating some tough backstraps lol.
I am new to the website, could someone explain who Pat is and why does everyone love him?
Pat is the gracious owner of this website and one heck of a bowhunter.
Whoohoooo!!! More Live Hunt!!!
Good job guys with an incredible effort at figuring out your hit. And Ron Baxley's buck is an absolute hog - great job again. That outfitter is awesome. Pat, see if you can get another deer like Ron's. Gotta luv that mass.
And Kyle, I just noticed your thread. Pat is one of the nicest, down to earth guy you could ever meet. I met him when he was speaking at a banquet and he was just terrific with the kids there, giving them videos in trade for promising never to do drugs. He's also about as honest as they come. How many BIG NAME bowhunters would post their wounded deer on the internet for all to weigh in on? That takes some real guts.
TXHogman is right. Pat's the best, great family man and a really good bowhunter. He just shot the World Record QL Caribou a couple weeks ago even though he won't admit it himself.
This live hunt is another incredible one. I had my doubts when I saw him post his wound. I didn't think that was a smart move. But after seeing what they did to recover it, and then proving that the deer is fine is actually a greater message than Pat messin up. These animals are a lot tougher than we give them credit for. He just proved that hands' down.
Now, I get to enjoy the hunt a little longer - assuming the outfitter doesn't have a punched-tag policy.
Good Luck Pat!
Not all of Kanas is like this place. They have exceptionally controlled private land down there with really good genetics. So don't think for a second that most KS outfitters produce deer like Pat or Ron shot.
Archeryman, obviuosly I'm not pro-outfitter seeing what they've done to Kansas. But as bad as they are here, I couldn't believe any of them would enforce a punched tag policy on a deer that has been confirmed to be unharmed. Especially with such a high profile client like Pat. But I guess it wouldn't really surprise me either.
Agreed. I hunted with an outfitter that would punch your tag even if you shaved hair. That was the last time I ever hunted with him even though the place was terrific. These guys seem like a really good outfit so I'm sure the hunts' back on.
Congrats tater(ron)...That`s a dandy of a buck!! if your comming through Mulvane this weekend give me a jingle..stop in for a cup of coffee and I`ll tell ya some lies...316-214-5791...
Quite frankly i`m amazed that buck survived..But I`m glad you saw him and he appeared ok. He`ll still have to go through getting past the infection stage but they are tuff animals and he`ll probably be ok..I guess the penetration wasn`t as good as it looked?? That ol spine sits deep and thick in that area.. Good luck Pat on the rest of your hunt..personally I`d like to see ya hunt this same buck just to see if you can get him...maybe a mid day stalk or something..course I know outfitters don`t like push`n deer but it would be interesting to see if you could get him..course time is a factor too...
Ok, this goes down as the most unbelievable attempt to find a deer I have ever read. If he didn't have pictures, I am not sure I would believe it. That was just awesome!
Great job Pat on giving it your all and finding out for sure what happened to the deer. Now you can hunt away knowing that the deer will live to see another day. There's nothing worse than not knowing the outcome.
Good luck!
Note to self:
If I ever hunt with Pat double my life insurance policy. 8*)
Congratulations Tater. That's a hog you killed there.
Congratulations to Pat too for locating his deer. Now get back out there and give em hell.
Oh ya, are you the modern day Johnny Quest or something? :^) Flying around in that fancy contraption and all.
Ny - Pat is a down to earth fellow who would give you his shirt off his back if it was his last one. Also Pat tends to have near death experiances on 90% of his hunts- most memorable poking one of the most poisonous snakes in Africa with a stick to push it out of his blind. Check it out on his previous Semi- live Africa hunts
The plane is cool...Kansas habitat is conducive to that means of looking it seems to me....In NY (where I hunt) it would be difficult (but fun)
$4000 bowhunt, $500 ultralight ride, seeing the buck alive and well you wounded, PRICELESS!!!!
I think a lesson learned is not to assume anything from a hit. Until the animal is in your hands all you know is that you hit an animal and the signs it left behind.
99% of the guys (respectable hunters) thought he was dead.
Animals have an amazing will to live (except my buddy who nicks an animal in the toe and it falls over).
Go get'em Pat!
I loved the ultralight ride!!! way cool.
I think though I will stay away from those low profile broadheads. That hit, though high, should have done the job.
Gotelk,
Your comment on low profile heads isn't an educated one. Unbiased tests by people on this site prove otherwise. Do some research, it may surprise you a bit.
XMan
Way smart way to look for a dead or wounded deer if the terrain is good. We use helicopters several times a season when the tracking and dog tracking leads to zero results. Glad he had that option available to him.
Like others have said, the honesty is appreciated. When it is just you and Mother Nature that witness something, any story can be told..but admitting that a mistake was made is the right thing to do.
I recently had a similar experience on a bear hunt, and even though I stated that I rushed the shot and it was my fault, others wanted to "help" me by saying my sight must have moved, etc. Fact is, it was my fault, and it had to be told that way.
However, my story was not on the net for everyone to see. I think it helps us all to realize that we everyone makes mistakes, admitting them is tough, but right is right. THANKS, PAT.
Next year I will try to get my outfitter buy a paraplane just in case!! LOL
This all reminds me of a quote from Aldo Leopold:
"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than by a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact."
Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac
I have been in a two seater powrachute during November before. It is a really neat experience and you can see a ton from above. Trails, funnels, deer, and everything else are easy to see.
I hope he gets another crack at that deer this week. Might be hard with rising temps, deer will be moving early and late.
Good Luck Pat,
ckc
This is an example of why I argue on this site about shooting heavy arrows with cut on impact broadheads at the highest poundage that one can reasonably handle.I honestly believe that had Pat been shooting my set-up he would have been taking hero pictures today instead of plane rides.Deer sized animals should ALMOST never stop an arrow from getting a pass-through with the right set-up.
What was up there to stop it.Scapula-I would blow right through it.Spine-would have busted through and taken him down on the spot.Ribs-no problem there.
Light weight carbon arrows with suspect heads (I do not even know what head Pat was shooting so this may noy apply to this deer)shot from average poundage bows just do not have the momentum to push on through.Put on the outdoor channel and watch show after show where a hunter sticks deer in the ribs and the arrow does not punch through.Traditional archers get more penetration at half the speed with their heavy arrow set-ups.
Not meant to bash.Just an obsevation.Good luck on your hunt and I hope you get to see the next one fall.
Oops. I would have bet money that deer was dead. It's one more good reason for me not to gamble! Maybe another inch or two penetration and he would have been, who knows.
Stuff happens. Thanks for being up front. That's a stand up guy.
Good luck on the rest of the hunt.
That plane is sweet. Would probally be great for scouting & finding routes that deers travel. Scott ABA SCI-Ak. Chapter NAHC
eyedoc,
Just curious, what is your setup?
BTW, Pat was using the new Muzzy head. Not that it matters really.
I know my setup cant blow through a shoulder or spine nor would it if I used a heavier arrow. When I get cold and it does here in MA, I cant draw back a bow over 61 pounds. I can when its warm :)
XMan
I shoot a Hoyt Deviator at 29 inches and eighty three lbs.My arrows are 30 inch 2219"s tipped with either Steelforce 210's or the big(190) grain razor caps.
eyedoc...I think you could shoot through a line of elephants with that set up...I am also a VERY cold weather hunter and have one rig set up at 60 lbs. and 1/2 inch shorter draw length just for drawing easier and clearing a bunch of clothes...My KE may suffer a little, but my accuracy doesn't...
Kota, now thats funny! A line of elephants.
My arm would rip out the socket if I ever had to let down on a bow that heavy, holy cow. No wonder you can blow threw a shoulder and spine eyedoc....LOL
I will think about your post eyedoc, you do make a good point. What gets the job done on a big bone hit....could I alter my setup to get better penetration? hmmmmm something to tinker with after the season i think :)
I do have the advantage of hunting in the South and so much of my hunting is done in warm weather.I also admit to turning my bow down to about 79 lbs in the dead of winter and shortening my draw length about 1/2 inch to help with coats , coveralls,etc.
My point is that too many people think they have to have a bow that shoots 300 fps.To do that with a bow that pulls 60-70 lbs you have to get pretty light with the arrows.When you do that , the light arrows tend to be more affected by bone.When the angles get bad the effect gets worse.
People are so concerned that they are gonna misjudge the distance on a shot and it is that speed that is gonna save the day.Most bowshots, like Pat's , are chip shots and the speed of the bow does not really come into play.
What works best for me is a 550-600 grain arrow traveling at about 255 fps.Much more likely to passthrough than a 300 grain arrow at 315 fps.
Some people say,"Well what difference does it make how far in the ground your arrow sticks after it passes through the deer." The answer is none if the deer is at twenty yards and broadside and you slide that arrow between the ribs.But on a ten yard shot down through the back, with maybe a scapula or a shoulder involved, it makes the difference between a sad story and hero shots with the deer.
Just a thought...
Does Pat have to stand down the rest of the day after flying??? AK style?
LOL! That para-plane or whatever was pretty funny. And a great idea.
Break out the para-plane better be a option on the next blood trail challenge
Can we get these little 'ultra-lights' classified along with 4 wheelers. Boy, I can just hear it now!
"These ultra-lights are not following their flight plan and are going to ruin my hunt". "I walked for two days and nights to get back here and now look at what happened."
I had better get mine ordered before the state restrictions make it impossible. 8^)
Only person I've known that would be blessed enough to find that buck...alive...flyin' over top...takin' pics...
Wouldn't have believed it could have come together like that if I didn't see the proof.
Awesome Pat.
Now get back at it!!!
where is the video clip from that ride??
eyedoc...You make very good points...I too am going to play with some heavier weights this off season for next year...
I still think that is a dead deer. Single lung shots can take days to kill. We have all heard stories of survivors from a single lung hit, but that would be extremely rare.
When I saw Pat was going flying in that thing, I was waiting for another Black Mamba-like story, something like being attacked by a Bald Eagle in mid flight. I see he grounded safely though.
Bullbuster, i agree. "superficial wound"? come on...we all make bad shots, it happens. the go cart thing was a "its all better now, we did our part, i got 4 grand on this hunt time to try for another"....great effort in all honesty, lets just not call it a "superficial wound". dead deer
I'm sorry and it may get me banned, but I have a hard time with this statement Pat!
"Now that my deer was spotted unharmed,"
I keep watching the video and that shot is there, with good penetration....Hard to say he's unharmed!
Based on the current reactions of the deer he's NOT hurting...My opinion is that the deer is going to be fine...Weird things happen with shots...This was one of them...Deer's fine...
For many years I have preached pretty much what the eye doc is saying.
At 66 years old I still shoot as heavy of bow as I can get back in cold weather. Right now that has dropped from the high eighties down to 72 lbs. I still use 2317 arrows and I really don't think there is a better broadhead on the market than a good ole snuffer. They just penetrate in the line shot and one will loose few animals with them. That is just a very basic fact. All this light weight, high speed stuff is great on the 3 D shoots and for score, but in bowhunting it doesn't compare to a good ole heavy arrow pushing a good sharp "true" cut on contact point.
On shots like Pat took, the probability for conned and chisel points to deflect is much greater than that of a point like the snuffer. That is the exact reason you will only find a snuffer in my quiver. I want the power of my bow, whatever it be to be carried by my arrow in a straight line so it can be used for penetration and not lost in a sideways manner by deflection. I think that is the biggest reason that deer was not recovered.
But on a side note, I watched a pretty well know bowhunter on this site arrow a bear many years ago. He hit the bear far back and high. I knew it was not a good hit and we searched and searched but could not find the bear. I knew it had died in some distant hiding place. But about two weeks later that same bear came back to the same bait and seemed a good as could be. So let us not underestimate the ability of a critter to survive many injuries or wounds we think are fatal. For many times they are not. fatal. Let’s hope this is one of those cases.
Have a great bowhunt. BB.
"Unharmed" isn't the right choice of words, but all signs point to him recovering from the wound.
I want to thank Pat for admitting that he had a bad shot I have never seen this in a hunting video .Good luck tomorrow .Steve
What I want to know is why Pat didn't bail out of the paraglider and bulldog that deer down??? Pat must be getting soft!
You think yesterday lack of activity from the bucks could have anything to do with a small plane flying right above them?
i dont post much but i do read alot of them and enjoy everyones input on things. BUT why when just an oridnary person makes a bad shot and admits it and tells how they tried to recover it they get jumped on like crazy. pat on the other hand does the same thing but just because he is Pat and is able to take all these cool pictures some of those other post bashers are all sympathetic and stuff. just funny to see how people are different when its "ordinary joe' vs so called "profesional hunter".
This is not meant to be argumentive in any way, but there were no inadequacies in Pat's set up. The arrow simply hit too high regardless of penetration. Matt and I reviewed the video over a dozen times when it was first posted and both agreed that the hit was well above the lungs and appeared to catch only backstrap. Pat, we've all been there but too many of us are guilty of blaming our equipment or our quarry when things go wrong ("a gnat bit it in the butt and made it jump just as I released"); Your honest and candor is most commendable. Furthermore I'd like to say that the fact that the arrow pulled out greatly increases the chances that the deer will recover with only an education and some scar tissue. We have two such deer hanging in our living room, both had previously been shot above the spine and recovered to be taken during subsequent seasons. We also have a doe living on our property that had been shot several years ago and we got to watch the wound heal over the winter as she repeatedly walked past our stands stopping frequently to lick the wound (apparently she didn't get the education part).
I particularly enjoyed the aerial photographs of the deer. What an awesome tracking tool! Sage and I will be out of a job if anybody around here gets one of those beauties (no Matt, we don't "need" one). This hunt just wouldn't have been complete if Pat didn't do at least one thing to defy death so I hope that flying in something that's held aloft by a bunch of kevlar was all he's going to do for Julie's sake. Now go get 'im Pat!
-Cheryl and Matt
"You think yesterday lack of activity from the bucks could have anything to do with a small plane flying right above them?"
No, IMO deer forget what just happened within 5 or 10 minutes, then continue about their normal business.
But in 90 degree weather they'll probably hole up.
I guarantee he did not hunt anywhere near where they were tracking & flying yesterday.I know I would not be.
Hey, dont get me wrong I would have been on the plane too. Just a question.
Another consideration...it is illegal in Kansas to 'locate' game by the use of radio or mechanical devices (plane?). While I applaud their effort to ground search with the grid technique, are they 'locating' game with the aircraft?
jas...Pat addressed this issue in his post above...
I couldn't find any information of the Ks dept. website that says you can use aircraft to find a dead deer...I could only find the sentence that said a person can't 'locate' a deer with a mechanical device...maybe they have this info. in some sort of booklet you get with a tag.
Crud, I hate hunting when it's hot.....
The person at KDW&P just told me over the phone that locating/recovering a dead deer by aircraft is not legal.
They didnt recover a dead deer with an aircraft. Nor did they locate animals to hunt with the aircraft.
Well my response would be call the local gamewarden that patrols the area..I would have to guess this was cleared by him waaaaay before Pat even showed up. Most reputal guides have a very good relationship with the local game warden and I`m sure this is the case in this matter.or call another gamewarden if ya want a different answer..just my two cents...
They didnt recover a dead deer with an aircraft. Nor did they locate animals to hunt with the aircraft.
SOOOOO Its a non-issue lets move along.
According to the law, and I've been over and over this with game wardens and the Kansas director of law enforcement, it's legal to use a vehicle as long as you...
#1 don't use a radio or cell phone to communicate with other hunters. If you spot a dead deer, it's legal to land and then retrieve it.
#2 don't pursue the deer in any way. That means if you just fly over it and just keep going you're OK. If you turn around and go back, it could lead to a problem. It would surely be a problem if you followed the animal or harrassed it into moving.
A case was made on a rancher using his private plane to extremes. Many charges were filed...KDWP or the feds took his airplane. All-in-all, it cost him about $110,000...but that guy was far, far different than what's been mentioned on this site.
Nobody can doubt the outfitter's intent in this case.
i can't believe that thing you went up in! i can't wait into you get back. Good Luck
Pat,I read those prior posts. None of them said you were using a radio. I have spent the past hour on the Kansas wildlife site and have found the regulation that states it is illegal to locate big game with aircraft, but there is no printed regulation stating a person can find dead game with an aircraft.Could it be possible that you located a big game animal with aircraft, which causes this other guy to think you broke a law, but that it could be ok since you have a legal responsibility to try to recover the deer? Kind of a 'letter of the law verses the spirit of the law' thing.
Pat, relax....didnt see anyone making allegations. we all support you and thank you for allowing us to be part of your hunt
This is real easy:
1. Legal method was used to look for deer. They were not hunting which is the purpose of the 'locate' language.
2. Nonlethal shot on deer, will live to chase does another day.
3. Hunt On Pat!
XMan
I don't know how to move the e-mail into this box but here is the reply I recieved word for word from Pratt regarding an email i sent them yesterday afternoon after my call.
"It would not be legal to use an aircraft to locate a deer that has been killed according to our statutes as listed below. I have attached the statutes. "
then they attached two pages of laws "K.S.A. 32-931" in the e-mail...
You know what? I'm just going off of what these people told me. I'm not making up anything or infering anything. If they are wrong they need to apologige to you.
Guess we need to get rid of the ATV`s too..
If it was cleared by the local CO then Pat is in the clear.
Jas are you going to turn Pat in? Not sure why you are harping on the point?
Pat my buddy shot a 8 point, 230 pound buck this week in Kansas. He was surprised because it wasn't a big boy only 120 P&Y.
Sometimes as hunters we can be our own worse enemy.
We all have an opportunity to "live" in Pat's shoes for a week and enjoy an unbiased semi-live hunt as if we are there are selves.
Pat is brutually frank and shares his hunts as they really occur. Selective editing and censorship is NOT why I enjoy this site.
Integrity goes a long way in my book. Enjoy the rest of your hunt Pat, I will.
Bart
KEEP HUNTING PAT !! 99% of us truly enjoy what you do for us and I personaly thank you !!
Before I went hunting in Kansas last year I called to see if it would be Ok to bring my blood tracking dog to recover shot deer.I explained that it was only utilized on wounded game and was hunted only on a leash.It would not be allowed to run free.No Way, I was told.Not legal here.In my opininion, (that and a buck will get you a cup of coffee)this is as stupid a rule as I have ever seen.The law says specifically that you should make every attempt to recover wounded game BUT use a recovery dog.
Same way with the para-plane.Common sense says it should be OK.As long as it was only used to try and recover game that could perish and be wasted otherwise.But with the law as written , if some over-zealous prosecuter wanted a piece of Pat action, you would be in deep doodoo.Even saying that you got the OK from a local CO does not give you any real protection.So what can a guy do.I do not have an answer but I do know if I were in Pat's boots I would have probably done exactly as he did.
According to your equipment listed for the hunt you are shooting a sixty pound bow at 27 inches and an arrow shat that weighs 9.6 grains per lb..The broadhead is 100 grain Muzzy .Total arrow weight should be about 375 grains and you don't consider that a light set-up.
You are right when you say we will never know if a heavier set-up would have made a difference in recovering that deer.But I really think it would have given you a better chance.
Good luck on your last day.I hope you already have an even bigger buck down.
Good luck Pat and I hope you manage to nail a big one in the final hour.
I think that ten point this morning would have been in trouble! ;-)
Kyle,
You need to be careful when you start accusing people, very careful.
Interpretation is key in all situations. The regs state that you can't shoot at, kill or pursue. Pat was doing none of those. He was recovering which is not listed in the regulations.
Furthermore if the CO gives permission to do something then Pat has every right to do so and can hold that CO accountable for any violations, if received.
What are you talking about corn?
Decker, one statement you say is true "You are confused"
Another 15 posts and we will have Kent and Pat convicted of being arial terrorists disguised as bowhunters who were planning to release anthrax over Kansas as a plot to impact he elections that took place that day.
Some people are ridiculous.
Decker, we like to prentend that its ok to state opinions.... however, if yours doesnt agree with the consensus you will see how things really work.
I'm an attorney and I can't help but chuckle at you Kansas guys who are bent on nailing this guy. In fact, he did nothing wrong because all statutes are interpreted based on intent. In this case, the intent of the law is to prohibit people from using aircraft to harass or provide the hunter with an advantage. The CO is charged with looking at the situation and making a determination. Sounds to me since the KDWP has not pursued this and the CO gave his blessing that they interpreted his actions as within the law. After reading this, that call would be entirely appropriate. His lawyer would have had an easy time fighting a ticket. You guys are really stretching a literal interpretation in the hopes that you can pin something on this hunter. But the KDWP, an attorney, and a judge would have looked at this and see it for what it is - an attempt to recover a presumably dead deer.
Taking my lawyer hat off. I have to wonder why you KS guys are so obsessed with this situation? I'm sure it has nothing to do with a non-resident hunting with an outfitter in your home state.
Peter.p, this is a DEBATE FREE thread. Anytime someone tries to plant words that are not constructive and positive I will challenge them. If you have nothing positive to say, then you will be called out. And that is not an opinion!
Matt Napper
no but it is totally accurate.
My interpretation was that Pat and the pilot were talking via radio which totally makes sense to me based on the mode of transportation.
Pat, I applaud your effort to search for your buck. Clearly it was above and beyond. Keep up the great work in being a role model in the field for all ethical sportsmen to emulate.
Really hoping you're thinking about another late season semi-live hunt back at Cimmaron for all of us to share with you as well.
Keep up the great work!
Chris
Good grief, what a way to ruin a nice hunt. I hope you can put this out of your mind and enjoy yourself Pat. Go hunt, good luck! Jeff.
Tradman, slow down...i wanna jump on the bandwagon too
Lawyers and Lawyeretts:
KS statutes: "It is unlawful for any person, unless authorized by law or rules and regulations of the secretary, to:
Takeanygame animal or furbearing animal from a motorboat, airplane, motor vehicle or other water, air or land vehicle unless such person holds a valid handicapped hunting and fishing permit issued to such person pursuant to K.S.A, 32-931 and amendments thereto; 'Take" means harass, harm, pursue, shoot, wound, kill,molest,trap,capture,collect,catch,posess or otherwise take,or attempt to engage in any such conduct.
Kyle, i dont think pat denied the bait in years past did he? i remember reading threads in the past where someone brought up the bait....it is clearly evident in the videos when the deer are nosing through the grass. but i dont think pat ever denied it...i think it was stated that sure they sprinkle some bait out but regardless of bait or not the deer would have come through anyway????besides, its legal
I give a lot of credit to anyone that takes the time and effort to locate a wounded deer. So many so called hunters follow some blood, lose it, and give up. Going the extra mile to find the animal is commendable in my opinion.
When you get $4000 a hunt, I'm sure the outfitter will do anything to recover a deer especially when you a getting publicity like this!!!!
As to the "Bait" Pat used, it was corn brought with him sprinkled out to stop the passing deer.
Glad you had a good time Pat and thanks for the live hunt.
As to the "Bait" Pat used, it was corn brought with him sprinkled out to stop the passing deer.
Glad you had a good time Pat and thanks for the live hunt.
Great hunt Pat. Your honesty shows real guts and character. Sorry you didn't kill a deer but that happens. Hope to see you at ATA this year.
Pat needs a camera man or needs to be one. You cant do both and expect to do both well. Sorry to see another poor shot. If that means having help filming so be it. We have all done it ( making a bad shot) but corrections need to be made to ensure that you dont do it again.
Every animal is due your best shot period.
Pat,
Dont know if you are still reading this or not, probably not with these last post, but anyway we nailed the rut last week. 5 out of 6 got deer in SE KS, we saw some absolute hogs. I drew the lucky straw this year and got a real nice 10. With all the crummy weather we have had over the last two years during the first week, we pushed it back a week and lucked out with the weather. Next year, Nov 12-19 for sure....
Thanks for posting the hunt, I really enjoyed it.
XMan
