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I was up getting an early morning hike in (0515 start) before the 4th of July crowd showed up.

I did my desired mileage and was coming back down the trail, a few had started up but not many, and holy-moly the morning errupted into out of control PITBULLS (3 of 'em) right in front of me on the trail.

The fellow in front had two of them on one of those double leash type dog leashes and the tiny--like 100lb 'babe' behind him had one 'uge Pitbull on a single leash...

I haven't had the chance to site in (20 yards) my new Ruger Alaskan .454 pistol so all I had was Bear Spray...

I went off the trail straight up thru the thick crap! to get above them and it was just a mess.....

Scared me to death....I bushwacked way above and around them and gave heads-up to all I past once I got on the trail.

Did I over react?

Good luck, Robb

Were they just walking their dogs?

More details please.

Sounds like you did the right thing to me!!!

Not all pitbulls are maneaters, they can be justa as tame & friendly as an English Setter if they are properly managed....

>>>>>--------------->

With five objects coming up the trail at you, someone had to get off the trail. I would have give them some room.

The dogs had saliva flinging as they went out of control barking and growling....

The guy in front had to laydown on top of the 2 he had on the double leash deal and kept telling me to just walk by normal....

BS, I 'aint' no ginny-pig! ha

I past a guy early on that had 2 Golden labs and I was just sick thinking about what happened when he came back down and ran into the PITBULLs.....

Good luck, Robb

You do not mention the owner's reaction or demeanor.

"why does one carry a 454?"

Probably becasue at the time he purchased it they didn't make the .500 just yet:)

To make six loud kabooms before giving up ones gluteus maximus for some critters dinner? Unless, of course, you were to actually hit your target. :^)

Watts

Wind was wrong for bear spray.

Why a 454? Why not?

according to the Weber County Sheriff there could be a marijuana cultivation operation going on, the dogs were probably for guard duty that were being brought up???

or testing how it carries on the pack belt for elk hunting in Grizzly country?

LARGE Black Angus Range Bulls?

Your friendly neighborhood psychotic individual?

Because one leg is longer than the other and it ballances you out...

You didn't over react .

You don't really need to, until you REALLY REALLY REALLY NEED TO!!!!

Pit bulls are just time bombs waiting to explode.

LBB

I was running on a trail this winter. I was coming up on a man walking his dog. (Looked like a yellow lab). The dog was just running through the snow, having fun, no sign of agressiveness. He had it on one of those extending leashes. He "reeled" the dog in and held it by the collar to allow me to run by. As I came closer, I greeted the guy and as I went by, the dog lunged and smoked me on the wrist. It left a noticable gash and it bled.

This guy tried to do everything right. And when the dog saw me as a threat, the owner couldn't restrain it. Luckily, I was able to get the dog's info and all is well.

Now when running, and I meet anyone with a dog, large, medium or ankle biter, I give them ALL a wide berth. With these dogs barking snarling and attempting to lunge, you did NOT over react!

I was more into trail running in MT than here in CO but I always carried the small bear spray canister even in areas immediately outside of town where the chances of encountering a bear or large kitty were slim. Loose dogs were always more of a concern than the wildlife.

Well, I don't feel pits should be "pets". They are not geared for it. Just like English pointers. They are not bred to be warm and cuddly.

The couple should have pulled the dogs away to give YOU the wide berth.

That being said a guy should have to be licensed to own one. It is very easy to wreck one of these dogs. I wouldn't want one latched on to me- you will have to kill it to get it off. Even unconscious it takes awhile to pry them off of stuff.

LBB

On the other hand, I have a boxer that is very well socialized. I live in a place where many folks (who did not grow up in the U.S.) are scared to death of dogs. It annoys me to have people freak out when I pass them on the trail simply because I have a dog, even when to dog's body language is nothing but positive.

Given your situation, it seems you were reading the dogs AND the owners behavior. That is the right way to play it. In my book, any unfamiliar dog too large to drop kick gets his space.

The funny/scary part of the original story is the guy's comment that "they had the dogs out for 'training to be around people' in the mountains..." Yeah, there's nothing like trying to socialize a dog in a pack situation. Dipchits.

You have to forgive the stupid people. Without supid people, the rest of us would just be average.

I have 5 boxes of .454 shells and was only offered $25 a box as they cost $50 a box when I bought the 10 incher and now they are like $68 bucks a box-50 count. So I kept the 5 boxes of shells and bought This .454 is a 2 1/2 barell and it is perfect for my grizzzz country bow elk hunts in Idaho and Wyoming.

NO hernia with this 'short' .454! ha

The owners reaction of these 3 Pitbulls is what got me concerned the most...laying on top of them and wrapping arms around them to control them didn't sit well in an immediate reaction type situation....plus the trail is like 24 inches wide at best with all the new spring growth..very steep UP and very steep DOWN..not much give other than to bail...

Plus a previous attack by a dog like 4 years ago has had me always to caution on the safe side....

Andy--I do run up hill like a girl under this type of deal....ha

Good luck, Robb

Lol, how's that workin' out for 'em?

I think most of the responses here point the blame at the owners, not the breed. From Rob's description, these dogs were out of control, asserting dominance over their owners and anything else on the trail. They should have socialized those dogs long before taking them on the hike. Pitt Bulls are no different than many other breeds. Their physical strength and tendancy toward dominace do not make them well suited to the casual owner. Many breeds fall into this catagory. Doesn't stop half of America from buying what's "cool" this week.

I have investigated over 1,000 dogbites to humans over the last 20 years, a VERY low percentage of these biting dogs were Pit Bulls. unfortunately MOST of the Pit Bull bites caused massive, permanent damage to the person bitten.

Chihuahuas, Cockers, and Dachshunds are MUCH more likely to bite, but Pits call maim and kill when they do bite.

Caution and wariness is well-advised.

My buddy (deputy) just shot a pit in front of its owner because it was acting aggressively toward another neighbor. Dog had chased her onto her deck. When officers arrived, dog turned toward them. They didnt find out if the owner was right that the dog wouldnt bite. 3 rounds from his .40 CASE CLOSED.

Some people that own these dogs like to see people afraid. See what the reaction of the owners is when you pull that 454 from your waist, and tell them to keep the dogs in control or you will. I bet they would chit their pants.

You didn't overreact.

If they'd have seen you packing it, they'd have moved off the trail, not you. =D

I'm no fan of pits and they are a real problem here IMO. Every mongrel/mutt in HI has some pit in it because they take some serious restraint that most folks don't understand and most dogs don't even need. They are constantly loose and making other pits. And some pig hunters here have no problem losing one and leaving it go, as it's easier to just pick up another. (Not a knock on pig hunters, I know many very responsible ones too and have hunted with many.) But you don't see a problem with maltese running around making trouble with neighborhoods and livestock. Dogs are bred for purposes. All breeds are not the same, a dog is a dog is incorrect to say the least. It is the breed, both in temperament and physicality.

I know this is more an owner problem. But there is no arguing they require special equipment and handling that few other breeds require. I hear it all the time that the bad ones "just weren't handled right". Which fixes nothing after someones pet is killed or child mauled. Bottom line is these breeds were bred for very aggressive purposes. You're not going to magically breed that out of them any time soon. If they weren't "special" dogs they wouldn't need "special" handling. They aren't just a loaded gun, many are more like unexploded ordinance, much less control over them than any loaded gun, none in some cases. If you own em it's up to you to take whatever measures necessary to make sure they are under full control at all times. 100%.

I'm not one for making special laws especially to outlaw things like dog breeds. But the owners need to be held personally responsible, as in if their dog attacks someone or something, it's treated as if they themselves attacked them. Not just in litigation as what usually happens.

I admit a sore spot here. Pit bull attacked my dog on the beach as it drug around a lady on a chain leash like she was a rag doll. They had no money for my vet bills but could afford a $1000 dog and were in fact upset with me for choking down their dog. I know 2 folks that have been attacked, one a 10 year old girl on her second face surgery, and at least 3 others that have had their pets killed by them, 2 in their own fenced yard, one while on a leash. All pit bulls, every single one. Not GRs, GSPs or labs. Don't spoon feed me some BS about they're like any other dog. They clearly and unarguably are not.

In fact they just had the state pit bull dog club show here a couple weeks ago. After several of the dogs got into fights, the owners got into fights and it turned into a full scale swat team riot. I seriously doubt you will ever see that at your local field trials. I never have.

this site has info on every breed.

But about two weeks ago I was out one evening walking my dogs through a city park located about a mile from my place. I walk there once of twice daily and have for years, with the exception of when I'm out of town or take my dogs to the mountains to walk (like I did this morning).

On the way to the park I pass by a Rugby field and they were having a Polynesian party on the field. I cross the field and skirt the people and walk through the park and back up onto the same field. At about 50 yards I notice a dog (pit bull) and he starts to bark at my dogs. As I pass by him (about 30 yards) I notice him lunge towards my dogs, pulling the owner over backwards, who was holding the leash. He rolled on his side and grabbed the leash with both hands and looked to have the dog under control. (At least that is what I thought).

All the while this was happening, I kept walking and by now we were heading away and I began watching where I was heading. All of a sudden the pit bull grabbed and locked onto my largest dog with a death grip and would not let go. I was holding both of my dogs leash in my right hand and so I began to hit the pit bull as hard as I could with my left hand (I am left handed) in a motion like swing a hammer or pounding a stake. I hit the dog as hard as I could probably 8 to 10 times on the side of his jaw and smack on his eye, but he kept on his death grip on my dog.

By this time 20 or so people surrounded the dogs. I kept hitting the dog and others pulled and finally got him to give up his grip. While I examine my dog to see how badly he’s hurt a police office walks up to me and begins asking me questions. I was more interested in checking out my dog than answering QUESTIONS, and he caught on to that soon and waited until I checked out Oxford. All I could find were 5 puncture wounds near the base of his ear. He had escaped without major injury.

The cop begins to ask me if I want to press charges, and I said I did not want to cause problems, but I felt like if there were any medical bills required that the pit bull owner should be responsible for them. Then one of the on lookers said you better look at your wrist, as I think you broke it. I looked down and it was twice the size of normal. The officer took down my name and my dogs name and then went to talk to the pit bull owner, who must have known he could get in trouble, and had split.

The funny thing is that with hundreds of Polynesian people standing around, not one soul knew who that guy was!!!!!!!!!!

Luckily Oxford came out good--- much better that I would have believed. My wrist ended up being just broken blood vessels, as when I iced it that evening the swelling went down quite a bit in within a few days it was gone with the exception of the discoloration that occurs with an injury like that. I have not been contacted by the police.

It has changed my view of pit bulls, as I will never feel the same as I once did. After that, I lost my trust in them.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

And Robb you’re a puss! ha ha

Here's Oxford on the 4th of July on our trip to Utah's high country.

In my experience, those that own them are by and large-shall we say-less than desirable folks who own them as an extension of their violent ways and use them for intimidation purposes.

I try to avoid them but if I encounter one that acts with aggression towards me or my family I will kill it if I have a weapon handy. And I almost always have a weapon handy....

That being said, pits can be one of the most dangerous breeds. They are physically the absolute toughest dogs I've worked on, and their bite is incredibly strong. While most dogs can cause you to pay a visit to the doctor, a pit-bull can kill you. With three pits that are getting aggressive, you haven't got a chance without bear spray or a weapon that you know how to use.

BULELK1- I think you made the right choice! Definitely!

Where do you get this bear spray at?I ride a road bike alot ,and have dogs chase me,don't carry a heavy gun!

No, you didn't do the right thing. Why didn't you sight in that hand gun as soon as you got it? lol

BB, That is very scary!

Funny how nobody could identify him??

I would do anything to protect my Sandy. I have always wondered what I would do if I was walking her and she was attacked by another dog. I am usually carrying my Sig Sauer P220 .45 acp and I would have to think that after a few kicks or punches I would have no other choice in my mind to protect my baby, eventhough I cannot imagine shooting a dog. I would only hope that the law would be on my side-

By the way, I have seen pics of Oxford and your other dog in some other posts and have been meaning to ask you what breed they were??

Good hunting-

michael

So I will stick with my Bear Spray and camera.

It has been my experience that when ya introduce a gun into a situation it changes everyone involved.

I will just avoid this trail but it is one of my favorites for scouting Mnt. Goats, once ya get past the 3 mile mark....for the Willard Peak unit.

Hope all is well Bill....screwy deal...

Good luck, Robb

Get THREE of them, and you have a pack. With the owners present you have a pack protecting their own, and that is a VERY dangerous situation. If the owner had to physically lay on top of the two leased dogs, then he has/had NO control of them whatsoever. At that point you are dealing with an animal very similar to an agressive bear. Keep your eyes on them, never turn your back to them, and slowly try to retreat.

The owners of those dogs have seen that behavior from them before, and they are fools for even owning them.

ANY dog can be nasty, but when you add strength, and tenacity that "PITS" were bred to have, you have a DEADLY situation.

You did NOT overreact.

I don't know how anyone can defend these worthless POS dogs. I'm a dog owner and pet lover, but at some point you really need to think about why you would even one. Does it make you feel tough or what? Most of the people I see that own them have a complex of some sort. I can't understand it. Does it make you feel like more of a man because you have a dog thats tougher than you?

Just had a conversation the other day with a neighbor of mine that owns a huge pit... 100-110 pounder. He said he's a sweetheart and wouldn't hurt a flea, then goes on to say that when he plays with him he punches the dog in the head and face as hard as he can and the dog enjoys it... Sounds like a wonderful pet.

Seems like about 60% of fatalities are a result of pits... When you figure there are easily 25 popular dog breeds in the US, the propencity for a pit to attack and kill is 10 fold higher than in any other breed.

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs-pitbull-myths.htm

"The percentages below show us the percentage of the breed involved in fatal attacks v. the population of the breed, for the last 30 years in the USA. Apx. 240,000 - 12 Fatal Attacks Chow Chow .005% + Apx 800,000 - 67 Fatal Attacks German Shepherds .008375% Apx. 960,000 - 70 Fatal Attacks Rottweiler .00729% Apx. 128,000 - 18 Fatal Attacks Great Dane .01416% Apx. 114,000 - 14 Fatal Attacks Doberman .012288% Apx. 72,000 - 10 Fatal Attacks St Bernard .0139% Apx 5,000,000- 60 Fatal Attacks American Pit Bull Terrier .0012%

There have been over 400 fatal dog attacks since 1970 involving 30 different breeds. The majority were caused from unattended children that became victims. 268 fatal attacks occurred from negligence by parents of children up to the age of 7 years old. When taking into account all the circumstances involving fatal attacks there is no rational basis to ban or restrict a specific breed of dog. " Please Note: There are 4000 registered basenji's in the USA, and there have been 4 deaths by this breed. C2003 ACF. All Rights Reserved.

Regards,

Poul Poulsen www.eurowaf.org American Canine Foundation

The long and short is pits lead the list of dog bite-related fatalities by a large margin in terms of absolute numbers. Point taken on the % aspect though.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/breeds-causing-DBRFs.pdf

I thought Goldens where supposed to be more vicious than this???

"Of the breeds most often involved in incidents of sufficient severity to be listed, pit bull terriers are noteworthy for attacking adults almost as frequently as children. This is a very rare pattern: children are normally at greatest risk from dogbite because they play with dogs more often, have less experience in reading dog behavior, are more likely to engage in activity that alarms or stimulates a dog, and are less able to defend themselves when a dog becomes aggressive. Pit bulls seem to differ behaviorally from other dogs in having far less inhibition about attacking people who are larger than they are. They are also notorious for attacking seemingly without warning, a tendency exacerbated by the custom of docking pit bulls' tails so that warning signals are not easily recognized. Thus the adult victim of a pit bull attack may have had little or no opportunity to read the warning signals that would avert an attack from any other dog."

Something like 800,000 children bitten every year by dogs. Yet every dog owner always says, "oh, my dog would never bite anyone".

Must be ONE busy dog out there biting all those kids.

my wife is the same way with snakes, and elevators.

a phobia is a phobia and it does not good to be told not to wet your pants over something that is not scary to another person.

we all know there is no monster under the bed but that does not make a child sleep better when they really and truly are in fear of their life.

I would avoid trails. Anywhere dogs are allowed to go is a place you should simply assume you are going to see a dog Robb, and so you should avoid them as my wife avoids elevators.

In fact she will ask if she has to use an elevator and is not too proud to say, she is afraid of them, people will help you if you simply state that you are afraid of them, some people will try to help you overcome your fear and phobia but ignore those who mean well, they should worry about their own phobias and leave you alone with yours.

happy hiking and try going to places where dogs are not allowed on the trails, some state parks are also anti-dog, these are places safe for you to hike and not be scared.

good luck and try to have fun! RB

I do have to disagree with a few comments on these dogs. I have a bit of experience with them. My first and probably the most meaningful to me was with a pit named "Spike" my neighbors had. This dog only had one eye, but was as gentle as a puppy around us kids. We would let him pull us on the skateboard, he would let us wrestle with him, all that, never aggresive with us, ever. He did however kill a few dogs that managed to come near him (chained up most of the time I might add).

Then there is the one my other buddy had. This thing would growl at me from the minute I came in his house till the minute I left. I think that dog was a bit retarded or something, but it was not a cool dog to be around at all. I'm an animal kind of guy too. The ones that "don't like new people" are usually in my face trying to lick me or rolling over on their backs showing me the belly.

I think it is more rearing and breeding rather than the breed itself that causes these animals to behave with extreme aggression.

Nick

I read the comment that pits bite adults at as high a rate as they do as speaking to an innate aspect of their nature which other dog breeds do not have a tendancy toward. IMO that is much of the problem with the breed.

When you consider how many labs there are in the U.S. (#1 breed in terms of popularity) accounting for 26 attacks and 2 deaths since 1982, pit bulls (not even in the top #10) with 1,110 and 104 respetively do not match up well. Per the statistics in the link above, pit bulls and their mixes account for 1,200 of 2,200 total attacks. Yes, there are "worse" breeds in terms of the rate of attacks, but that does not make pits "good", it just makes them better than the very worst. In any breed there are good dogs and bad dogs, but I guess my point is that actuarially I just don't see a great justification for owning a pit.

Your arguments are contradictory. If Pits are so docile and safe for Petey and all the other Little Rascals, why do you say in the very next sentence alot of people are not fit to raise them because they are "guard dogs" that require special care/training?

You can't have it both ways....

the dogs are a danger and everyone knows it. give it up.

No use for pits here, from my Texas days, so many horror stories with pits down there. Yes, the owner is a big part of it, but the extinction of pits would not bother me one pit..........

Lastly, we have a rogue family pit roaming our hunting lease from a nearby home. He scares the heck out of our younger hunters when he circles their stand, not to mention runs the game off. We have warned the owner on 3 occassions about keeping him home, wanna guess what happens next..............

As a dog owner (currently three--2 goldens and a mut dog), no doubt the owner is huge. Best dog we ever had was a Chow Chow, not the best reputatin here either. That Chow would fight with our husky and flat out whoop it and not let go once biting its neck, like a pit I suppose, was scary seeing that Chow throw down on the husky, but with respect to people that dog was the best, thanks to my wife and her raising of it.

Still, do not, will not trust a pit.

WP

i hate to disagree with you, but...

you said this.. "Pit bulls are not the only ones with teeth."

That is very true, but I will bet anything if your mini pincher latched onto BB's dog it wouldn't have taken much to get it off. For me it has everything to do with capeability. If my lab bit someone and held on for some reason, I could get her off pretty easily.

Pits, rots, and others are bred to hang on no matter what. Once they clamp down that is it. And they also seem to know to go for the neck or head area!has the potential to bite someone, but some animals have more potential to seriously hurt or kill someone.

Here in MN the past few years we have had way too many little kids hurt or killed by dogs. I am unaware of any Yellow Labs involved in any of these attacks, ut I know of a rot, pit and some sort of mastiff or something like that-

michael

Each animal

Here in my home state we have a late date season on the Wasatch Front for bow muleys/elk.

The first fall after the dog attack, I didn't give it a second thought as I blew up the closed road in Mill Creek Canyon about 0430 in the dark to get to my 'spot' after a nice 5-6 inches of fresh snow had fallen the day before.

I did my normal hunt prep...and scent cover with 'Still Steamin' elk urine....

Coming back down after my enjoyable but no harvest morning hunt, all the doggie owners had started coming up walking the dogs or x-skiing or snowshoe treks with dog's off leashes.....

Needless to say...I was freaking out with all the dogs barking and coming up to me and getting a 'wiff' of the Still Steamin' elk urine....

BUT that day actually started me on the mental recovery of not all dogs will attack me....

No--- I do not spray up any more if I am going up in that area on the late bow hunt!----go figure!

Good luck, Robb

I have a golden and a bernese Mt. dog...I can say i would never hesitate to approach one that was a stranger. Cant say that about some breeds...pitbulls being the most threatening.

This woman was just minding her own business in her own yard and in no way provoked the attack.

First successful manslaugher prosecution for loose pits.

I hope it sets a precedence nation wide.

Tony

"As for pitbulls: The world needs more Michael Vicks...." - this is easily the most ignorant remark I've read on Bowsite in a long time.

Most breeds worthy of being considered a dog were, for centuries, bred to hunt, herd, bay, kill or guard for their owners.

Even BB's beloved Weimeraner (pictured above)comes with a caution from the Dog Breed Info Center: "Reserved with strangers and sometimes combative with other dogs. Socialize them well at an early age. Protective on his own territory. Very brave and loyal, it has a strong prey instinct. Do not trust with small non-canine animals. This is definitely not a herding or farm dog. The Weimaraner needs to live indoors as a member of the family. He needs attention and companionship. If relegated to a kennel life or if left alone too much, he can become very destructive and restless. He is a natural protector." - If I didn't know any better, I'd say the above could very well be the breed description of a PBT.

To blame a dog breed for the negligence of a human is akin to blaming a firearm because a few knuckle draggers can't keep there loaded handguns out of the reach of children.

KK

Yeah, Robb, ya big wuss. Now, if you wouldn't mind marking down on a map all of your hunting hotspots where dogs are allowed (e.g. ALL National Forests), I'd be more than happy to go ahead of you and "clear" the path of canines (and cervids). ;^)

IMO that is a great point. As a boxer person, a breed which was bred to fight, I have learned that keeping my boxer out of situations where her instincts may kick in is part of being a responsible dog owner. Socialization helps, but the breeding runs deep and you never know when or by what that instinct will be triggered.

As far as pits go, they're not any better or any worse than any other dog. Its all in how they're raised.

When a pit or rottweiller attacks somebody, take a look at their owner and you'll immediately see why. Owners of dogs that attack are ALWAYS gang banger type jackasses. Baggy pants, wearing a hat in a stupid way, basketball jersey and rap music in a cadillac with 24" rims. And yes, they're black or hispanic. Sorry, but thats the way it is.

They raise they're dogs to be that way. They could do the same thing with a cocker spaniel but it just doesn't look "OG". Get rid of the gangbanger mentality and image and you'll get rid of mean pits and rotts.

Rap music and the "hip hop culture" has made society the most disrespectful and violent its ever been.

I have been asked "how much Pit he has in him" more than once. Your test was very instructive, Mint.

- No Str8 but I doubt anyone is going to forget they left a loaded Pit Bull unattended in the glove compartment or under the mattress...

There are many manners of neglect just as there are many measures of commonsense.

There is no such thing as a bad dog just bad owners...

too bad the PB breed has been ruined by public perception..they really are good dogs....

never ever trust any strange dog regardless of breed....

The stats referenced above show attacks of 48 by akitas and 3 for dalmations vs. the PB's 1,110. Is that some of that new math I keep hearing about? ;-)

It's all drummed up by the media, because who is going to listen to someone bitten by a dalmation or datschund? If you recall a few years ago it was the rottweller on the hit list, before that the doberman, before that the german sheppard!!!

Here is a link to a more recent article involving "Fighting PitBulls":

Pit Bulls Rescued From the Football Player's Fighting Ring Show Progress in an Unprecedented Rehabilitation Effort

By Brigid Schulte Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, July 7, 2008; Page A01

When football superstar Michael Vick pleaded guilty last year to conspiring to run a dogfighting operation, we knew he had kept about 50 pit bulls on his 15-acre property in rural Surry County, Va., on a road named Moonlight. We knew the dogs were chained to car axles near wooden hovels for shelter. And we knew the dogs that didn't fight were beaten, shot, hanged, electrocuted or drowned.

But we didn't know their names. Headlines described the nameless dogs as "menacing." Some animal rights groups called for the "ticking time bombs" to be euthanized as soon as Vick's case was closed and they were no longer valuable as evidence. That's what typically happens after a dogfighting bust.

Instead, the court gave Vick's dogs a second chance. U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson ordered each dog to be evaluated individually, not judged by the stereotype of the breed. And he ordered Vick to pony up close to $1 million to pay for the lifelong care of those that could be saved.

Of the 49 pit bulls animal behavior experts evaluated in the fall, only one was deemed too vicious to warrant saving and was euthanized. (Another was euthanized because it was sick and in pain.)

More than a year after being confiscated from Vick's property, Leo, a tan, muscular pit bull, dons a colorful clown collar and visits cancer patients as a certified therapy dog in California. Hector, who bears deep scars on his chest and legs, recently was adopted and is about to start training for national flying disc competitions in Minnesota. Teddles takes orders from a 2-year-old. Gracie is a couch potato in Richmond who lives with cats and sleeps with four other dogs.

Of the 47 surviving dogs, 25 were placed directly in foster homes, and a handful have been or are being adopted. Twenty-two were deemed potentially aggressive toward other dogs and were sent to an animal sanctuary in Utah. Some, after intensive retraining, are expected to move on to foster care and eventual adoption.

How can this be? Reports of gruesome pit bull maulings make international news. Pit bulls are one of the few canine breeds thought to be so dangerous that they are banned in some places.

The answer, says Frank McMillan, a veterinarian who is studying the recovery of some of the Vick dogs, is that we don't know. "We've assumed all pits are the same, and we've never let this many fighting dogs live long enough to find out. There are hardly ever studies, because these animals don't survive," he said.

Classic fighting pit bulls, part bulldog and part terrier, were bred to be friendly to people and aggressive with other dogs. Their ability to withstand great pain and keep fighting is a quality prized as "gameness."

But with an explosion in urban street fighting, some pit bulls are being trained to go after animals and people. Evaluators said that when they walked into the kennels where the Vick dogs were being held in the fall, they weren't sure what to expect.

"I thought, if we see four or five dogs that we can save, I'll be happy," said Randy Lockwood, an animal behaviorist with the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. "If we had to euthanize the majority, then we could at least say we'd tried."

Instead, they found dogs with behaviors that ran the gamut. Some would lick human hands but lunge at other dogs. Some almost immediately went into play mode with other dogs, wagging their tails and crouching down on their front legs in a play bow. "Some actually perked up and developed more confidence only around other dogs," said Rebecca Huss, a law professor and animal law expert who was appointed by the court to oversee the evaluations and determine the dogs' fates. "They actually seemed happier around other dogs."

Some of the dogs were scarred. All were sick and malnourished. Once it became clear that the dogs might be allowed to live, evaluators gave them names.

"One of the things that struck us immediately was that these dogs were more like the dogs we see rescued from animal hoarding situations," Lockwood said. "Their main problem was not aggressiveness but isolation." Loud noises startled them. A light coming on made them jump.

All that the dogs seemed to know about people was that they were to be feared.

Witness Sweet Pea, a compact cinnamon-colored dog with a pleat of wrinkles above her eyes who was hiding under the desk of the Frederick animal acupuncturist trying to treat her for anxiety. Fred Wolfson dimmed the office lights. Soft Native American flute music wafted through wall speakers. Wolfson held out his hand for Sweet Pea to sniff. When she would not budge, he sat on the floor and took his bowl of needles to her.

Sweet Pea began to pant.

"She pants when she's nervous," said Stacy Leipold, who volunteers with the Baltimore-based animal rescue organization Recycled Love and is fostering Sweet Pea in her home. "I thought for a very long time she was just a hot dog."

As Wolfson rubbed the dog's head and felt along her spine for the proper relaxation points, Leipold explained that Sweet Pea was little more than a lump when she came to her home in December. She rarely left her crate. If she did, it was to hide under a desk. She had to be carried outside to do her business. Over time, with Leipold meticulously tracking her behavior, Sweet Pea began to pace in a circle and wag her tail when she realized it was time for a walk. And she seemed to take comfort in Leipold's other dogs, a Jack Russell terrier and a Great Dane. Still, one of her favorite places is the landing on the basement stairs. That way, up or down, she has two routes of escape.

Five needles and 12 minutes later, Sweet Pea stopped trembling.

* * *

Jane, Homicide, Jade, Bandit, Miami, Mike-Mike, Big Boy, Magic, Tiny, Too Short, Seal, Chico.

Sweet Pea is not what Vick, who is serving a 23-month prison sentence in Leavenworth, Kan., called this dog. We don't know what he called her, or whether he had a name for her at all. One of the few names that appeared in court papers was Jane, one of the first pit bulls Vick bought in 2001 to start Bad Newz Kennels. The Humane Society of the United States found results for some of Bad Newz's dogfights in underground magazines. They show that Vick's Homicide lost to Maniac. Vick's Bandit lost to Red Rover. And Vick's Mike-Mike lost, after fighting for three hours and five minutes, to Dragon. Out of 10 fights recorded, Vick's dogs lost seven.

But no one knows who most of these dogs are, or whether they are even alive. Jane is. She is now called Georgia. Her jaw is crooked, having been broken at least once, and her tongue sticks out. She is covered in scars, and her teeth have all been pulled. By court order, she will live out her days in Dogtown, at the Best Friends Animal Society's 3,700-acre sanctuary in Kanab, Utah. So will Lucas, a tail-wagging, 60-pound dog who evaluators suspect was Vick's grand champion fighter.

They are two of 22 dogs who were deemed worth saving but who showed enough animal aggression that they could be held only in a tightly controlled sanctuary. At Best Friends', McMillan, the veterinarian, has developed a "personalized emotional rehabilitation plan" for each dog and measures how they exhibit such traits as aggression, fearfulness, calmness or friendliness. True to their "people soft" nature, all but two of the Vick dogs are on "green collar," meaning they are open and friendly to human visitors. About nine have begun to have supervised play dates with other Vick dogs.

The remaining 25 Vick dogs were given to seven animal rescue organizations across the country, which placed them in experienced foster homes. A number have since passed the American Kennel Club's 10-part Canine Good Citizenship test. Many are in the process of being adopted.

Sharon Cornett, a member of the Richmond Animal League's board, agreed to foster Gracie and is now adopting her. "I adore this dog. She is just a love bucket. She loves people and animals unconditionally," Cornett said. She has four other dogs. All of them sleep together at night. "Gracie is not what the public perception has been of a fighting pit bull."

Still, Cornett and other pit bull rescuers say that they never leave the dogs unsupervised with other animals. And rehabilitating a fighting pit is not for everyone: You have to know what you're doing, they say.

John Goodwin, a dogfighting expert with the Humane Society and a proponent of euthanizing fight dogs, is skeptical of the emerging reports of the Vick dog recoveries. Fighting is in their blood, he said. Retrievers retrieve. Shepherds herd. And fighting pit bulls fight. "The behavior is bred into them," he said. "These groups are not rehabilitating these dogs. They're training them to behave in a more socialized manner. But these pit bulls should never be left alone with other dogs, because you never know when that instinct to fight another dog is going to surface."

Tim Racer, one of the founders of Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pit bulls (BAD RAP), who, before taking in 10 Vick dogs, had evaluated and retrained 400 pit bulls over the past 10 years, disagrees. Yes, there are pit bulls who have fought, attacked and mauled other animals and people. But so have other breeds. And incidents almost always have been traced to negligent or abusive owners, he said.

Racer said it is not surprising that many of the dogs get along so well with other dogs. Just as the urge to fight is in their blood, so, too, is the need to get along. "You have 150 years of man trying to produce an aggressive dog. But you have tens of thousands of years of Mother Nature preceding that," he said. "Dogs are pack animals. They survived because of their pack. . . . It's hard-wired into their genes that they do no harm to each other."

Indeed, long before a glowering pit bull came to symbolize tough guy vogue, pit bulls, or American Staffordshire terriers, were the all-American dog. In the Civil War era, they were known as nurse dogs because they were so good with children. Pit bulls sold war bonds, earned medals in World War I and starred in such TV shows as "The Little Rascals."

All the more reason, Racer and other rescuers say, to look at each dog individually. "Every thoroughbred is not a great racehorse. Every pit bull, even if it's of fighting stock, is not an aggressive dogfighter," said Steve Zawistowski, an animal behaviorist with the ASPCA who helped assess the Vick dogs. "There are no simple answers."

* * *

As with any celebrity case, the legacy of the Vick bust has been far-reaching. Dogfighting raids across the country have tripled in the past year. Hundreds of law enforcement officers have been trained to detect the signs of underground rings. And, in some cases, officials have asked pit bull behavior experts to evaluate seized fighting dogs rather than automatically euthanizing them. But most dogfighters don't have the kind of money that Vick did. So even those deemed worthy of a second chance don't always get one.

Charlie, Denzel, Halle, Oscar, Sox, Ray, Frodo, Aretha.

They, it turns out, are the lucky ones.

**In other words bad people not bad dogs!!! They are no different than a bear or lion!!! Treat them or any animal with teeth, with respect!**

BSLugnut

Not the dogs, but the history, would be of paramount concern in a such an instance as the Vick case. I wonder how experts accurately evaluate which dog is eventually capable of going gonzo sometime in the future.

To lighten this conversation, watch the Dog Whisperer, see how many PitBulls he works with on the show...not many! This is becasue, there are many other types of dogs that bite and tear things up. In fact he uses a rappers dog (PitBull) "Daddy" to rehab other dogs. His motto is "I rehabilitate dogs and train people!

BSLugnut

There are millions of pit bulls owned in America that never cause a bit of trouble never bite, maim or kill anyone. Let's agree we are talking about the exceptions to the rule.

This idea that you own a pit bull or whatever breed and it is a healthy well socialized family pet and it just snaps and eats somebody is just ludicrous. If you believe the family member that says, "fluffy was a perfectly friendly dog until this happened" don't believe it the signs were there. Most animals and dogs especially will give you plenty of warning. Not 100% of the time but I would bet it is close.

The number of deaths by dog runs 25-35 a year a few less people than are killed by lightning strikes or drown in 5 gallon pails. Tragic yes but let's not overstate the case. I do agree we have a dog bite epidemic and I think that is mainly due to people not knowing how to act or react with an aggressive dog.

Think you are good at guessing what the breed make up of a particular dog is? Go here and give it a shot. http://www.wisdompanel.com/photos/gallery.aspx I bet you are wrong more than half the time if not higher.

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/owning.cfm

http://www.forpitssake.org/home.html

During the time of WWI the American Pit Bull Terrier had became a well loved and desired dog. In fact the Pit Bull was used as Americas canine mascot of the time and seen in such posters as this during war time

In 1917 a Pit Bull by the name of Sgt. Stubby became a war hero for saving several soldiers lives and even capturing a German Spy while in the trenches of France with the 26th Yankee Division.

Later the Pit Bull was used to signify sturdiness, dependability, and loyalty by such organizations as RCA, Buster Brown shoes, and even the loveable Pete of the Little Rascals.

In fact the first dog to travel across America in a car was a Pit Bull ( Bud ) and did so with the first persons ( Horatio Jackson and his assistant and "bicycle" mechanic Sewall Crocker ) to cross America in a car ( A Winton named the Vermont). Horatio later donated Bud's goggles to the Smithsonian Institute in Washington D.C. During the trip Bud would assist in watching for large bumps in the road and often received as much if not more attention by the press than did Jackson. After the trip was completed Bud bravely guarded the Jackson home until his death of old age.

By MATTHEW BARAKAT

Associated Press Writer

December 22 2005

SPOTSYLVANIA, Va. -- A jury Thursday found a pit bull owner guilty of involuntary manslaughter for allowing her dogs to run loose and kill an 82-year-old woman.

The jury recommended Deanna Large, 37, receive three years in prison. The judge has the option to reduce the sentence, but cannot increase it when Large is formally sentenced on Feb. 24.

Large sat quietly as the verdict was read, while the family of victim Dorothy Sullivan quietly wept.

Large, who was also found guilty of two misdemeanor charges of allowing her dogs to run loose, faced up to 10 years in prison. The case marks the first time in Virginia a person has been convicted of manslaughter for the actions of their dogs.

During the trial, witnesses testified Large's pit bulls had long menaced the neighborhood and animal control officers took two of them away last year after they allegedly killed a kitten. At one point, Large had 13 pit bulls in her doublewide trailer.

Sullivan was attacked March 8 by three pit bulls while she took her shih tzu, Buttons, for a walk outside her home. The dog also was killed.

Before jurors began deliberating Large's sentence, Commonwealth's Attorney William Neely argued it was important to set a precedent establishing significant jail time in such cases.

He also cited the gruesome manner in which Sullivan died as he asked for the maximum sentence. Jurors earlier in the week saw autopsy photos that showed pieces of Sullivan's scalp torn away, chunks of flesh torn from her arm and thigh and bites on her ankle down to the bone.

"Do I need to show you those autopsy photos again?" he asked the jury.

One juror replied, "No sir."

Jurors were told about Large's criminal record, including felony convictions for hit-and-run and aggravated sexual battery against a 13-year-old boy.

Defense attorney Eugene Frost argued for a lighter sentence.

"The lesson is learned. She won't own pit bulls again. Deanna Large feels incredibly bad about this," Frost said.

Prosecutors were required to prove that Large owned the dogs that mauled Sullivan and that Large's ownership was so negligent that it rose to the level of "callous disregard" for human life.

Large's attorney argued that prosecutors never proved her ownership of the pit bulls that attacked Sullivan, and also argued that Large had no knowledge that her dogs were dangerous.

I grew up as a kid around 2 Pits/Stafforshire terriers... wonderful dogs that we regularly manhandled, I'm ashamed to say. Very patient. If you've every watched the little Rascals, Petey (the white dog with the circle round it's eye) is a pit. Point is, they are not all devil dogs. A heck of a lot depends on their owner's temperment and to a lesser extent good breeding.

That said, my kids play with our lab "Saint Gracie", and I keep the manhandling to a minimum. Just b/c she'd let them pull her ears off without complaint doesn't mean it's OK.

When I run into other folks pits, and especially pushy Rotweilers, I keep a close eye on them and read their body language to see what they have in mind. Where they slobbering b/c they were happy to be out, overheated from the climb or deranged? If uncertain, like you, I'd jump trail, better safe than sorry. If things got crazy, bearspray's a good option. Don't forget the owners. Likely they are the ones to blame.

Case and point: I came within feet of being mauled by my very wealthy, very nice step-brother's 2 rotts a few years back. These dogs were never mistreated, slept on the bed and were babied in every imaginable way (they were he and his wife's "kids"). My dad has a cabin that is fully fenced, where my step brother and family, his dogs and I spent the week. After having spent 1.5 days playing with and petting the dogs, I left the yard and went for a walk at dusk one evening. When I returned 30 minutes later at dark, something made me call the dogs and see whether they were out - probably due to a general distrust of rotts. After calling both by name, they ran to the fence and almost knocked the gate down trying to get at me - teeth barred and growling. I literally had to move down the fence line 20 feet to keep them from knocking the gate down. If I had entered the yard wthout checking if the dogs were out, I honestly believe I'd be dead now.

The lab "Bo" my step-brother owned before the rotts never tried to kill me. He never threatened or bit anyone. ***It ain't all about the owner.***

Seeing as I posted the Lab bite stats above, I think you need to find a different tree to bark up.

The point above is that the same people raised and trained the dogs. If your theory that "training and leadership is everything" was correct, the same training should result in similarly disposed dogs regardless of breed. It didn't. Heck, if the theory were correct we'd be using labs for guard dogs and pitts to retrieve ducks.

Or is it possible that different breeds have different instincts that predispose them toward certain behaviors? I do not discount that specific training or things like abuse can bring out such behaviors, but conversely training alone will not eliminate them.

Louisville, Ky. - A pit bull might be the poster dog for dangerous canines but would you believe that you’re more likely to be bitten by a wiener dog?

A study published by The Journal of Applied Animal Behavior Science says dachshunds are the most aggressive breed followed by Chihuahuas and Jack Russell Terriers.

Just last week near Saint Louis, a woman awoke from a nap to find that her miniature dachshund had chewed off her toe; the 56-year-old woman has diabetes and no feeling in her feet.

The study questioned six thousand dog owners, and found that one in five dachshunds have bitten or tried to bite strangers, with Chihuahuas also prone to snap.

Watch this story It comes as a surprise to some owners of small dogs.

“Where I live there’s a lot of Chihuahua’s around here and they’re all just as sweet as they can be, so, I mean, that really did shock me,” says Chihuahua owner Darlene Bradley.

“The only time she’s even a little aggressive is if you mess with her mom, I mean, that’s her mom and that’s it. So that’s the only time you might have trouble with her,” she says.

Bigger dogs like Rottweiler’s, Dobermans and pit bulls, are widely thought to be more hostile but researchers say although bites by larger breeds might require medical attention, those breeds aren’t biting as often as the smaller dogs.

Experts say be cautious, no matter how big the dog is.

“People do need to be aware of the actions and behavior of smaller dogs because if you have smaller children, they’re more on the same level-they can do more damage,” says Jackie Gulbe of Metro Animal Services.

If you’re wondering which breeds of dogs are the least aggressive, the study says they are Basset Hounds, Golden Retrievers, Labradors, Siberian Huskies and Greyhounds.

OWL.... Can't neccesarily disagree with the Pit thing although I don't beleive they are all bad if in responsible hands, but I got to speak up about the Mastiff comments on here. Please do your own research. I am not saying you won't find a bad one, but as a breed the English Mastiff is rated by AKC as one of the best family dogs there is, hence the nickname "gentle giants" . I own and have bred English Mastiffs for a few years and my current male is the best dog I have ever owned. Now where most people get conflicting stories and bad reports is with the Bull Mastiff, a completely different animal in terms of demeanor and aggressivness.

Per the reference above, there are only 2 deaths associated with Jacks and dacshunds (none with chihuahuas), and both had extinuating circumstances.

"The Mastiff's dominance varies widely depending on the lineage. They can be aloof with strangers or fairly friendly. Do not hit a Mastiff or you are asking for it! A born guard dog, brave and loyal. When strangers visit, it is likely to refuse to let them in unless they are accepted by its handler. The Mastiff generally holds intruders at bay rather than attacking. Protection training is unnecessary for this naturally protective breed. It is very possessive of home, family and car. It may be combative with other dogs if not very well socialized as a puppy, so extra effort should be given to socialize a Mastiff puppy."

- SBROWN, the above is excerpted from a breed description of an English Mastiff. I have nothing against English Mastiffs. I am confident in your assesment but your "gentle giants" can be mistreated into monsters.

My point, again, is that every dog has it in them. Remove the negative "culture" and influence associated with PBTs and we're not having this discussion.

In dogs breeding is everything. Anybody that's worked with bird dogs can attest to that. We've all owned dogs that just do what they do and do it amazingly well right out of the box and needed very little training. A beautiful thing. Pure instinct and breeding. Some breeds of dogs were bred to do other things. Like kill other dogs or attack people.

They are way ahead in proportion of every breed in attacks that result in serious injury or death in other pets. Like I said two of my friends dogs were attacked and killed right in their own fenced yards. How many cases do you know of a Golden Retriever breaking through a fence to attack and kill a German Shorthair? Any come to mind? How about a maltese in it's own yard? Any breeds come to mind that will do this time and time again?

The dogs in the Vick case were deemed salvageable because someone that worked with them determined (hoped) they could eventually be socialized. Not because they would make some terrific family pet or be a cool dog to walk in the park with. They didn't take those dogs to the local shelter and offer them up to the general public. The people that got them had the facilities and the training to handle these dogs. Just the fact this breed was the very best at what they did and were specifically bred to do just exactly what they used them for speaks for itself. Not exactly the case you would want to use to support what wonderful animals they were.

When a daschund or pekingese gets aggressive it is irritating, maybe even a little painful. But they don't have the very real threat of mortal danger to life and limb to you or your pet. If you want to use a gun analogy the real analogy is letting a child run loose with a bb gun compared to a child with a Mac-10. Oh, yeah, and the Mac-10 child can kick down your door to get out and can drag you like a toy down the street when the hard headed thing snaps and decides it wants something.

I'm sure the guys that have them as pets love them dearly. Under the right conditions I'm sure they can and do become good pets. But dogs are bred for purposes. At best you're showing that it's possible. If not handled correctly you unarguably have a much greater chance of things going drastically wrong with those breeds than with any other. The smartest post on this whole thread was the guy who said he just didn't put his dog in a situation where it could fail. He was on top of it and in control at all times. Very aware and very good advice.

If you meant "contemporaneously bred", then I would tend to agree. It seems there are a handful of "thug" breeds that are en vogue among the knuckle draggers. Even at that, to hang that rep on a single breed or 2 is both misguided and ineffectual in keeping problem dogs off the street.

TD, your gun analogy has some merit when comparing the power of a Pit versus the the capabilities of a toy breed. However, your analogy fails in efficacy when you consider there is a much larger sampling group than merely "bb guns" and "Mac-10s."

It is further flawed when you consider cases of misidentification - people saying they were assaulted with a Mac-10 when, in fact, they were shot with a black matte 1911 model handgun.

Of course, the unfortunate victim is not sure. All they remember is the gun was hand held and black but the Mac-10 has been in the news a lot lately so it must have been a Mac-10. Therefore, banning Mac-10s would be great in keeping anyone else from being shot by black matted 1911s...

Here is a story of a lab mix biting a child. Was it the dogs fault, heck no! it was the owners and parents fault.

Bridgehampton dog bite case in state's top court

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BY ERIK GERMAN February 15, 2008

ALBANY - The case of Scooter the face-biting dog made it to New York State's highest court yesterday, putting at risk the state's venerable "one- bite rule."

The Labrador mix caused "disfiguring injuries" when he chomped 8-year-old Danielle Bernstein's cheek inside a Bridgehampton toy store in 2003. Her parents promptly sued the dog's owner, toy merchant Juan Abel Mendez, who said the dog had never acted aggressively before.

Yesterday, beneath the New York State Court of Appeals' lofty ceiling of hand-carved oak, Bernstein's lawyer, James Forde of Manhattan, challenged the so-called "one-bite rule," a 180-year-old body of common law that suggests dog owners are not liable for animal attacks as long as their pets had never behaved viciously in the past.

"It's a misnomer to call it the one-bite rule, but the idea is that unless your dog has done something bad previously, like bite somebody, then there's no liability in the particular instance," said Carol Finocchio, Mendez's Manhattan attorney. "Does he growl? Does he lunge? Does he jump on people? That sort of thing."

Scooter was 6 years old at the time of the attack and had been only docile and friendly since Mendez rescued him from an East Hampton shelter, Mendez testified in 2005. After the attack, "I was beside myself," Mendez said in a 2005 deposition. "I tried to wrestle with all the facts in my mind to try to find out what happened, but, unfortunately, the dog, I couldn't get an answer from him."

Mendez now surmises that Scooter bit Danielle in an attempt to get at the lollipop he said was in the girl's mouth. "It was totally out of the blue," Mendez said in an interview. "Since that day I pretty much keep him off the floor of my stores."

Finocchio said making Mendez liable for Scooter's extraordinary attack could expose dog owners to unprecedented legal risks. "This would be a huge change in the law," Finocchio said. "Every dog owner in New York State would be subject to liability if the dog bit a child, regardless of whether they knew the dog was inclined to do so."

But Forde, noting that the girl needed more than 40 sutures inside and out to rebuild her mouth, said maybe more responsibility is a good idea.

"It's hard to explain to a dog owner in terms they're going to like to hear, but it's a question of who bears the responsibility," Forde said, adding the one-bite rule "unfairly places the risk and responsibility on the victim."

Neither side is arguing the victim caused this attack. Toward the end of a June visit to the Hamptons, Danielle stepped into the tiny store and found Scooter panting on the floor. After being assured Scooter was friendly, the 62-pound girl began to pat and kiss the 85-pound dog. Without warning, Scooter gave a short growl and then clamped his jaws onto Danielle's face just below her left eye. Adults pulled the shrieking, bloodied girl away from Scooter and dialed an ambulance. At the hospital, her father, Roger Bernstein, found his daughter, blood spilling onto her clothes "crying, petrified."

Pitbulls are very loyal to their owners, which is why owners should be responsible for any of the belongings for that matter.

BSLugnut

A couple of years ago me and my pregnant wife went for a walk to try and speed up her contractions and hopefully send her into labor. We took her two miniture dachsunds with us. We walked past a house with a rottwieler in the yard. This dog was going crazy trying to get out of the fence. My wife got scared and wanted to turn around, but I naively said "don't worry it can't get out of the fence" Just as I finished that sentence two slats popped out of the fence and a monster of a dog came tearing towards my wife and dogs. Gina picked the dogs up and was holding them. She was spinning around as the growling dog was jumping on her while I tried to hold it back. I am 6'3" and 230 lbs. I was no match for this dog. I would kick it as hard as I could and it was like kicking a tree trunk. I stood between the dog and my wife for about a minute. Everytime the dog would get close I would kick it under the chin as hard as I could. Fortunately for us the dog was only interested in killing our dogs as wasn't aggressive towards us at all. Finally a neighbor came out and threw me a 6 foot pipe. I smashed it a few times with the pipe and it ran off. Luckilly my wife and soon to be baby wasn't seriously hurt in the ordeal. My wife had some long scratches down her stomach from when the dog jumped on her. We were so lucky that our dogs weren't killed and neither me or my wife were bit. I got my wife and dogs home and came back out with the .44. I was so pissed that if I had run into that POS dog I would have shot it, cut its head off and thrown it through the owners window. Several hours later I heard a commotion outside. The rott had attacked a guy walking his lab. The rotts owner was trying to pull his dog off the lab while the lab owner stood there with a leash around his bleeding lab. The police didn't do anything, animal control did nothing, and the owner of the rott did nothing other then add a couple screws to the fence.

Bullelk you did the right thing. You never know how these dogs are going to act and they have the potential to cause some pretty serious problems when they do get out of line. My only regret from the ordeal was not splattering a rott all over the pavement.

I think you missed>

"She ran outside and saw her son's head in the jaws of a pitbull terrier, and another dog and two puppies tearing at his face and scalp."

The article proves that the Pit Bull problem is not confined to the USA.

I used to know people who had pet Rattlesnakes, fangs and all. IMO, Rattlesnakes are not good pets, and I certainly would never let them around my grandchildren, but I bet I can find people who will argue with me on that.

Tony

What happened to death stats?

Brotsky, I've seen some nice pit catch dogs for hogs.

Sure there have been people killed by pitts but many other breeds have killed also. I guess since I was seriously bitten by a lab I should start a petition to ban those sorry pieces of S**t. I'm not being serious just making a point. There is nobody who loves their family anymore than I do but I would have no problems having a pitt I raised in my home. I spent 15 years training dogs with 5 of those years being "protection" breeds and the rest birddogs so I do speak from experience.

Some people shouldn't own a Chihuahua much less a pitt because you do have to be smarter than the dog.

Unfortunately there are still many lines of pits that are still being bred for their original purpose, fighting. Vick was just one guy that got caught. That situation was not the only one by a long shot. Even though illegal, cock fighting is rampant here in HI and pretty much public. I could get you to a cock fight on any given weekend. They even have t-shirt venders and food booths. Deeper in the underground are the dog fighters. Mix in the thugs and there is a problem. These dogs are still being bred for aggressiveness as we speak, not in some long forgotten past. It's my understanding there is still a fairly active dog fighting culture alive in parts of the south also. You dig deep enough and my bet is it is out there nearly everywhere. And again you mix in the thug breeders... many of these dogs are still being bred for their original purpose. IMO it's not just an aberration. At least here where I live I know it's not.

Breeding is everything. Hopefully in time the responsible breeders will win out. But it will take quite some time to do so.

"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.)

The Clifton study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results. According to Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% of the canine homicides that occurred during a period of 24 years in the USA. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.)

Other breeds were also responsible for homicides, but to a much lesser extent. A 1997 study of dog bite fatalities in the years 1979 through 1996 revealed that the following breeds had killed one or more persons: pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas. (Dog Bite Related Fatalities," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, May 30, 1997, Vol. 46, No. 21, pp. 463 et. seq.) Since 1975, fatal attacks have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds.

The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)

In Canine homicides and the dog bite epidemic: do not confuse them, it has been pointed out that the dog bite epidemic as a whole involves all dogs and all dog owners, not just the breeds most likely to kill.

In all fairness, therefore, it must be noted that:

Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner or handler most often is responsible for making a dog into something dangerous. An irresponsible owner or dog handler might create a situation that places another person in danger by a dog, without the dog itself being dangerous, as in the case of the Pomeranian that killed the infant (see above). Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, even though its breed is considered to be potentially dangerous. A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack. To learn more about dog attacks, see Why dogs bite people To learn about how to take some of the bite out of the dog bite epidemic, see Attorney Kenneth Phillips' 10-point plan for Preventing Dog Bites.

"Falling coconuts kill 150 people worldwide each year, 15 times the number of fatalities attributable to sharks"

Let's ban coconut trees! ;)

I agree with your assessment of Goldens as well. That is a shame, too.

We have a winner!

When Pit Bulls escape from their owners, a percentage of them are still agressive even though away from home and family, and will attack other dogs and people just minding their own business. I can assure you that the Fredericksburg VA media reported facts based on court evidence in the above posted death of the 82 year old Lady.

That, whatever the percentage is, makes all the difference in the world, and is why the Pit Bull has become untrustworthy.

Breeding , as TD put it, is also to blame, simular to what happened to the Doberman breed during the Vietnam War.

Denial of a problem will kill you twice; the first time when a loved one gets hurt or killed because of false trust, and the second time with the death of your sanity with the memory you have to live with because you left a loved one alone with a dog that can crunch bones like a Hyena (sp).

I have hunted wild hogs with dogs, and the Pit Bull was awesome as the catch dog, and they keep fighting even when gravely injured.

No one doubts that there are good Pit Bulls out there, and to be honest, I have seen more that a few myself that I thought were OK. I have also seen a few that should have been put down because of their viciousness. Just do not give yourselves a false sence of security and deny that there is a problem with the breed.

But even with the ones I thought were "OK", I would never trust them because of the breeding for viciousness that has been documented for decades.

Tony

I understand your point that they can be turned into a vicious dog with an improper handler, but that is with almost any large breed dog.When I started looking for a new breed I originally wanted a German Shepherd. Went to look at some pups, parents on site and all. We pull up and this male Shepherd goes crazy, I mean non-stop behind the fence the whole time we are there talking to the owner,who, get this, was a cop. He goes on about how this sire is such a bad(bad in a cool way) dog and heck he even bit his friend once,but he thought it was cool and like a good thing. Well of course we left and I knew that was just a case of a sorry owner and not neccessarily a bad breed, my wife wouldn't even consider a Shepherd after that though. One bad trait you actualy have to watch for in Mastiffs is being overly shy. They will stand thier ground usually though if TRUELY needed. Thats what they are known for is when a situation merits any action at all. I hate my moms Chihuahua though, man that dog has problems.

Good luck, Robb

80% of dog bites cause no injury at all or only minor injuries that do not require medial attention. Dog bites sustained by children have been decreasing in the past decade. In 2016, there were 41 U.S. dog bite-related fatalities, which means 0.00000053% of dogs caused fatalities. Pit bulls contributed to 22 of these deaths. Labradors contributed to 3 deaths. Rottweilers, American Bulldogs, Belgian Malinois, Doberman Pinschers, German Shepherds and mixed-breeds each contributed to 2 deaths. 31% of deaths were infants ages 3 to 6 days. 42% (13) of deaths were children ages 9 and younger. 58% (18) of deaths were adults ages 30 and older. Pit bulls and Rottweilers accounted for 76% of fatal attacks from 2005 to 2016.

Pits were bred to bite and fight and trained to not bite their handlers, even though I'm sure plenty did. I grew up with dogs, my mother raised puppies and she had over 100 females at one point. I am also a dog owner. Sure there are breeds that are more prone to bitting, Blue healers, wire hair fox terriers and chihuahuas are some of the worst. The thing is bites from these dogs are hardly ever fatal. Pit bulls are bred killers and yes the responsibility falls to negligent dog owners but the breed is what it is. Taking the fight and bite out of these dogs is like trying to take the desire for sex out of a man. Sure you can condition these dogs but it's part of their DNA and it's their natural disposition. I had a bird dog that bit me once and after the second time she contracted lead poisoning. There is no place in this world for bitting dogs and certainly not around kids.

The answer to your question, "did I over react" is yes. If you were concerned about walking past the dogs you could have just gone up on the side of the trail til they passed and continued on. Judging the entire breed on a few individuals would be like anti hunters judging us by what spook span, big bill does, last time I looked I'm not a poacher and believe 99% of the guys on this site aren't either.

To the OP.. I think you did exactly the right thing! It's all in how the dog and the owner presents themselves.

I guess it works on grizzlies too.

From Pete of the Little Rascals, Victor of RCA fame, protecting the homestead and family from rats, bears and strangers, a world class finishing dog assisting those that hunt, through a couple of world wars as the nation's most popular family dog, into the recent occupation of criminal enterprises and targeted by "Fake News" leading social hysteria into socialist quarters....

The Pit Bull truly mirrors America.

That's not to say that good pits can't turn ugly fast but usually (not always) there is a mitigating factor that causes it. If a pit is not far removed from a fighting bloodline it will be more likely to turn violent at some point even if eases well. If a pits bloodline has come from well cared for parents and grandparents who only ever knew love then that pit is more likely to be a lovable nonviolent animal.

Just my theory. I don't fear any dog but I won't hesitate to kick one in the jaw if it is threatening me. I have always been the kind of guy who will throw the first punch if I think ones going to be directed my way.

Many years ago, my 3 year old Niece was at a neighbor's house, who had a pet pit bull. The dog had no history of ever being aggressive. She was playing with the dog (gently), when it suddenly latched on to her face, and began shaking her like a rag doll. Luckily, they were able to get it to let go.

Fortunately, after the swelling went down and they took the stitches out, she healed well, and has become a beautiful young Woman.

Could have been much worse. Changed my feelings about the breed.

Works every time.

Did I say that with enough clarity? Pitbulls are responsible for 80% of all the severe injuries that require surgery every year. Most attack children but adults are also injured. This is data from the CDC - if I remember correctly the number is 400k total bites that need surgey so if you do the math it's a lot!

I have been behind many chases with hounds and pitbulls. I would never let my child be alone with one and I never let my guard down around them. They likely will never harm you but when they want to you are in the fight of your life - aka Mike Tyson on 4 legs.

I don't hate pitbulls. Matter a fact it's the opposite - I admire their sheer strength/will.

Other breeds that get aggressive at times are scary enough, one that has a lock-jaw bite, no bueno.

About three years ago my wife and I and our JRT were staying at our place. She was outside with Sarge and I had went inside for a bottle of water. I heard her call me in a panicky voice, so I grabbed my AR and went outside, only to find two strange dogs growling at her and Sarge. She was holding Sarge and they were 20/30 yards away. Both looked at me when I came around the corner and one stayed right there. The other turned and ran but didn't get far. Put them in my backhoe bucket, carried them off and buried them. I suspect they were someone's hog dogs, which I normally just run off, but I take no chances with my family or my dog. Before anybody gets their nose out of joint, Texas law says you are ok to defend life and limb, as well as pets and livestock.

1). Pitbull, as commonly used, is a generic term that is often erroneously applied to any of 1/2 a dozen separate dog breeds and unlimited numbers of mutts. This makes compiling statistics about pit bull attacks extremely difficult.

2). Actual pitbulls (APBT and the related ASBT) were not bread to be "vicious killers". They do not have "locking jaws". They do not continue biting while unconscious or dead. They were bred for bull & bear baiting, and later for dog fighting. During these historical periods human aggression was intentionally and vigorously bred out of them. This genetic back ground does make them incredibly strong, very resilient, tolerant of pain, and in those strains more closely related to their fighting dog ancestors, often very aggressive towards other dogs.

3). Actual pit bulls tend to rank somewhere in the middle of the pack (of various breeds) on standardized aggression tests (like those done at your community pound when determining if a dog is adoptable).

4). Over the last 30-40 years, as pit bulls have become the go to breed for jackasses and wannabe thugs, they have suffered as a breed due to people intentionally breeding FOR human aggression, to being mishandled and overbred. They have also gotten larger (the breed standard used to be around 40-50lbs. 100lbs dogs are now common).

5). The best dog I've ever owned was a 40lb brindle pitbull named Pancho. He was straight out of a bloodline that had been fighting dogs for decades (the old rednecks in NC that Pancho's mother came from we're old time dog fighters). He loved people, cats, chicken, goats, and even my mom's little lapdog he grew up with. However, he was hell on wheels when confronted with any other dogs, and he required a firm hand and responsible ownership.

6.) In general, genuine pit bulls that are acquired thru responsible breeders are great pets and great dogs. However, a lot of "pit bulls" running around are the product of poor breeding and irresponsible ownership. They are extremely strong, very tenacious, and incredibly dangerous when you run into a bad one, and quite capable, physically, of maiming or killing an adult.

So, as much as I admire the breed I have to recognize that a human agreesive pit bull (or any other large breed) is much, much more dangerous than a similarly aggressive lap dog. Because of that I don't own a pit bull (or Rottweiler, Doberman, etc.) now that I have small children. If our house cat goes all Cujo on us a good stomp will end the danger.

We all make risk assessments and decisions regarding what risks we'll take everyday. Getting mauled to death by a dog gone mad is pretty rare, statistically speaking. And we should all avoid falling prey to media sensationalism and hype. To those that choose to own large, powerful breeds I say good for you, and just hope you own and care for them responsibly.

For me, especially when it comes to my kids, I never trust any strange dogs of whatever breed, and will not leave my kids unsupervised even with dogs I know well.

Best post on the whole thread and sums things up nicely.

For those that have been bit by those horable mean bulldogs, you all have heard the saying about a dogs being a good judge of character. Just saying??? He he

its just that way

I don't have a phobia of dogs, nor does my wife. She was cornered by 2 pit bulls a few years back, she came home crying about it. They damned near got her and had she acted in any way a prey animal vs a fighting back animal, they would have.

2 days ago I had two German shepherds come at me while walking on a county paved road. The one I've seen before, aggressive, younger dog. But paired with the older one, they fed off each other's aggression. I had my walking stick, not my gun though. The old man who has them was screaming at them, but they didn't care. They wouldn't come closer than whopping distance but they wanted to. They followed me along one side of their yard, onto the country road, then across the other side onto the other county road. A truck stopped and asked me if I wanted to get in, she'd drive me away from them. Upon walking back, I told the man (who had the dogs in the house) that I normally carry, legally, and that his dogs bothered me, a lot. "they're harmless" he said

yeah .... sure

today I walked by, I DID have my gun, and a younger man was there, only 1 younger dog out and I hollered and asked if they had it under control. He said" are you the guy who threatened to kill her" and I said I'm the guy that said I normally carry a gun and your dogs are highly aggressive, yes that's me. He said they're harmless

I've heard that before

Dogs are dogs, its not personal for them, its not targeting you .... they react when they do, how they are naturally programmed and in some cases, its violent and aggressive and deadly. I won't have it - I will kill a dog that I think is a bodily threat to me. People need to keep their dogs on their property. Period. That solves everything

Owner attached when trying to control pit. 3 days ago. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pit-bull-attack-ends-police-officer-fatally-shooting-dog/

3 days ago woman charged with MURDER when pits kill her grandson. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/georgia-grandmother-charged-pit-bulls-kill-grandson-article-1.3378375

Last month pit owner convicted and fined after pits kill woman. http://idahostatejournal.com/news/local/deadly-pit-bull-attack-dogs-owner-pleads-guilty-and-will/article_460a2209-0c76-5829-91fc-9684dfd500ba.html

Yes, you can be charged with murder. You can go to prison. You can be fined and you sure as heck will be civilly sued which your homeowner's and umbrella policy will not cover as you never told your insurance company about the pit, did you? They would drop you or exclude that risk from your policy.