Sitka Mountain Gear
Poison?
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
Thornton 27-Dec-12
Boone 27-Dec-12
midwest 27-Dec-12
JTV 27-Dec-12
Ollie 27-Dec-12
Bou'bound 27-Dec-12
Ziek 27-Dec-12
Bowme2 27-Dec-12
TREESTANDWOLF 27-Dec-12
Bigpizzaman 27-Dec-12
steve hay 27-Dec-12
Candor 27-Dec-12
Thornton 27-Dec-12
Bob H in NH 28-Dec-12
Hunting555 28-Dec-12
bigswivle 28-Dec-12
Genesis 28-Dec-12
bear2 28-Dec-12
midwest 28-Dec-12
Bigpizzaman 28-Dec-12
Thornton 28-Dec-12
txhunter58 28-Dec-12
Bou'bound 28-Dec-12
Bigpizzaman 28-Dec-12
Buffalo1 28-Dec-12
Florida Mike 28-Dec-12
Genesis 28-Dec-12
Hunting555 29-Dec-12
Bigpizzaman 29-Dec-12
txhunter58 29-Dec-12
Genesis 29-Dec-12
Trkytrack 29-Dec-12
Genesis 29-Dec-12
Mike Schlegel 30-Dec-12
midwest 30-Dec-12
Genesis 30-Dec-12
IaHawkeye 30-Dec-12
tradmt 30-Dec-12
Paul@thefort 30-Dec-12
Ollie 31-Dec-12
IaHawkeye 31-Dec-12
mature8pointer 31-Dec-12
Genesis 01-Jan-13
Buffalo1 01-Jan-13
Paul@thefort 01-Jan-13
Genesis 01-Jan-13
From: Thornton
27-Dec-12
A friend of mine came back from a job assignment in Mississippi a month ago. He said the locals would often show up to work with pictures of deer they had bowkilled. Some of the guys admitted to using a substance on their broadheads that was a white colored poison. One guy bragged he could shoot a deer in the back quarter with said poison and it would kill them faster than if he had lungshot them. I was wondering if anyone else had heard of this practice and what the poison might be. It seems very illegal an unethical especially if they are not trying to aim for the vitals.

From: Boone
27-Dec-12
Yes, it is a muscle relaxer and very deadly. If you poke yourself accidently, you would be dead in seconds. Very dangerous and unethical. It is a slobs way yo hunt and portrays the image that modern broadheads are not sufficient to get the job done.

From: midwest
27-Dec-12
Yup, "the pod" - anectine. Still legal in MS last I heard.

From: JTV
27-Dec-12
Not what you want to use and do.....my understanding is that to possess/buy the drug is illegal, but the DNR law allows the use of it(may be different by now)...go figure......its hilljack country....

From: Ollie
27-Dec-12
The chemical is succinylcholine chloride. It is a muscle relaxant that in large doses (such as that admistered by a pod below a broadhead) brings about skeletal muscle paralysis. It is a cruel death as the animal is laying there fully conscious but unable to move or breathe. Unless it dies from blood loss first, the animal is paralyzed and suffocates to death. It is federal offense to possess this drug without a licensed prescription. The drug may only be prescribed by licensed physicians and veterinarians. The drug is not legal for bowhunting use in Mississippi or in any other state. Mississippi chooses not to enforce federal drug regulations regarding this drug and for unexplained reasons the federal government has never sued Mississippi over its refusal to enforce federal drug regulations. The use of this drug encourages slob bowhunting as there is the perception that any hit will be fatal so you can take very long shots, bad angle shots, etc and still get the animal. Only problem is the drug takes a minute or two to take effect and an animal that is hit in a poor location may travel some distance with little or no blood trail before the effect of the drug takes over. Needless to say, an accidental shooting or tripping and impaling yourself with one of these drugged arrows will almost certainly result in death.

From: Bou'bound
27-Dec-12
can you eat the meat from a deer taken with this stuff.

From: Ziek
27-Dec-12
It used to be somewhat popular in some southern states. Like others have said, most states outlawed "pods" some time ago, and it's now against federal regulations to use it.

"...accidental shooting or tripping and impaling yourself with one of these drugged arrows will almost certainly result in death."

One can only hope that happens to the morons that continue to use this illegal and totally unethical "hunting" tactic.

From: Bowme2
27-Dec-12
Sickening!

27-Dec-12
I presume that taking a deer with a pod would mean the venison would be wasted as well?

From: Bigpizzaman
27-Dec-12
The meat is consumed or so I'm told.

From: steve hay
27-Dec-12
Yep, Fred Bear experimented with it. Story told to me when he did try it was that he wanted to see its effects on a marginal shot but shot at a deer with the "pod" and double lunged it. I used the injectable form when sacrificing animals for experimental purposes only when employed by the Federal Govt. years ago. It is a deadly compound and will drop a 1000 lb. bull in seconds. Average guy does not want to mess with this product.

From: Candor
27-Dec-12
Years ago a club member started bow hunting and on his first hunt with the pod he was knocking an arrow and nicked his finger with the broad head. He immediately started hyper ventilating, through his bow out of the stand and climbed down the tree. He nearly passed out from the fear of dying. He didn't get any poison in him but I declare if he'd of been over 50 years old he would probably have suffered cardiac arrest from the psychological trauma he triggered.

We laughed about this for years. Laughing at him; not with him. Damn that was funny. Haven't thought of this in a long time.

From: Thornton
27-Dec-12
I mentioned this very thing to my friend. I told him that if a guy nicked himself he would die from it. He said one of the locals put some on his finger and licked it off and laughed about it. He said it did nothing when ingested. This is the same medication we use in the E.R. after we intubate a pt. The "sucks" as we call it paralyzes the patient so if they wake up they do not try to remove the endotracheal tube that we are using to breathe for them. Thank you very much Ollie for explaining this to us.

From: Bob H in NH
28-Dec-12
I got into an internet/email argument with Adrien Benke years ago. He was teh big supporter of the pod and SCC and even wrote a book about it's use. He sent me the book and I read it, but don't agree with his conclusions.

He has a letter from Fred Bear in the book supporting it's use.

You are relatviely safe from a nick form the BH with this stuff. It's contained in a pod behind the BH, so cutting your finger won't do anything unless you also open the pod. How you fill the pod etc. I don't know.

The dose used on deer supposedly will not kill a human and the meat is fully edible.

The SCC works best when shot into muscles, so if you double lung a deer with it, it's marginally effective, but also not needed. The suggested shot with a pod is into the rump.

It's illegal to possess and illegal to hunt with.

As mentioned it paralyzes muscles, it doesn't kill the animal. However, once muscles are paralyzed, the animal can't breath, so they suffocate, fully awake and aware of what is happening.

From: Hunting555
28-Dec-12
It never fails, someone from the southern states seems to always show up in our area of Southern IL and get busted with drugged broadheads. It used to be an every year thing, but I haven't heard of any cases the last couple.

A sure sign is when you see someone with his broadheads covered with condoms. Seriously!

From: bigswivle
28-Dec-12
So what is more ethical. A guaranteed death of an animal in a few seconds or I liver/gut shot deer that takes all day to die? Have no opinion either way, just wanted to start some sh!t. Please discuss

From: Genesis
28-Dec-12
The deer dose WILL AND HAS killed humans.It paralyzes the diaphragm but is short acting.The meat is good.Back in the SCC hayday many would use the liquid form and just shoot a heavy hypo needle into the animal.I've personally NEVER used it but have seen it used many times.Death is very quick usually.

Years ago an elderly man in deer camp shot very low and one bladed the brisket and rolled back only half the pod behind the blade.Dead deer in minutes.

It's a historic debate as it's use has plummeted and to possess the drug is always illegal but just wasn't prosecuted by wildlife officials.

It sure helped the killing ability of recurves and poor flying (and placed) arrows.Ham shots were DEAD....ly.

From: bear2
28-Dec-12
"I got into an internet/email argument with Adrien Benke years ago" Me too, on a couple different sites.

From: midwest
28-Dec-12
Dang, Steve, it sure is good to here from you again!

From: Bigpizzaman
28-Dec-12
Yep Steve it's about time for you to come on down and eat some Crawfish again!!

From: Thornton
28-Dec-12
Personally I get sick and tired of hearing about lost animals on this site. People using $1200 bows that can hit a tennis ball at 60 yards somehow poke one lung because they shot before the perfect angle presented itself. I myself have lost several deer over the last 17 years and it was always the scapula problem. I do not see how it would be inhumane to kill a deer in 2 minutes with poison Vs. letting him run all over God's creation with one lung filling with blood and 3 coyotes chewing on him while he struggles to stand up. This drug is a paralytic. Try running, full of adrenalin without taking a breath. You wouldn't get very far. With this drug in a deer's system, he would simply stop breathing because his lungs and diaphram would be pararlyzed and he would pass out. He would die and not even be aware of it

From: txhunter58
28-Dec-12
I am a veterinarian and the injectable form of the drug is still available to us. I have personally never used it in any form on an arrow.

When I graduated (in the dark ages) we used it for castrating horses, but as stated, it simply paralyses muscle and the animal is fully awake and can feel pain. Once we got better drugs, we stopped using it in horses. Today it is mainly relegated to use in darts for deer/exotics at a level that allows there capture, but not their death.

As stated above, I don't have an problem with its use on an arrow from a "suffering" standpoint. The deer would probably suffer less than a marginal shot. Did you ever hold your breath until you passed out as a kid? That is what would happen to a deer, and that would be pretty quick, so don't see any "suffering" there.

The ONLY reason I would have a problem with it: many would exploit it to avoid long hours of practice to get accurate with a bow. With the pod, you simply have to hit the deer and it dies. I dissagree with the earlier comment that it is designed for a muslce. Yes, it works the quickest in a muscle, but what has to happen is for the drug to be picked up by the blood stream. Any shot that did that would result in quick death and the dose used on arrows was an overkill. So unless you had a paunch hit, pretty much any hit would result in death, but if in an area where its uptake into the blood was delayed, it would take longer.

All this is an academic exercise as it is not legal and probably won't ever be.

From: Bou'bound
28-Dec-12
woody

leave the image of someone covering their broad heads with condoms out of this please. let's just stick to the topic at hand thank you very much.

From: Bigpizzaman
28-Dec-12
I guy named "Woody" talking about covering a broadhead with a Condom, now that's funny!!

From: Buffalo1
28-Dec-12
Anectine has been around for years in MS. It is suppose to be obtained with a prescription but can be purchased openly at some bowshops. It is called "a pod" and pods come in diameters to fit different size arrow shafts. It a real oxymoron. I am not aware of any law on the MS legal books concerning the approval or disapproval of the substance for deer hunting.

All anectice does is overdoses the muscular system so that shuts down the lungs and heart. It does not require a shot in the vital zone- just basically an entry into an animal no real aiming skills required other than just shooting an animal. Anectine is use in the vetinary world as an controled drug for anethesia purposes during animal surgery.

It is very deadly stuff and should the hunter suffer a cut and the anectine enters the body, the results could be fatal. However, I cannot recall of any record bowhunter deaths in MS.

I think at one time "poison" was legal in South Carolina.

I can remember back in the 70's. if a MS bowhunter went out west (Colorado, etc) and the game wardens found out that hunters were from MS, the hunters would be "bird dogged" by the wardens, trying to catch the MS hunters using "poison" or "dope" as it is called.

I don't think the use is as great as it once was in MS. Too many nice bucks and entries in P & Y with the use of "poison" is prohibited.

From: Florida Mike
28-Dec-12
Funny how some guys preach ethics about how to kill a animal based on how fast it dies. Without the poison it dies in 1 minute, with the poison it dies in 2 minutes! Wow that's huge. (Sarcasm).If you don't want it available for use in killing animals that's fine but let's be real about it. The real problem would be human fatalities from blatant stupidity. Every year some goober falls out of a tree because he's too stupid to wear a safety harness, we sure as hell don't need that same idiot having poison arrows! Lol. Mike

From: Genesis
28-Dec-12
Good to see everyone in fine debate!:)

Tim,knocked out a mess last weekend.Not as good as yours fo sho!

P.S. Taylor is signing with Troy on National signing day in a month and we are very proud and excited!

From: Hunting555
29-Dec-12
For the record, I wasn't bringing up condoms as a joke. The guys that have been busted up here have had them over their poisoned broadheads.

In fact, this was the case in almost every one busted that I remember.

From: Bigpizzaman
29-Dec-12
Well Steve sorry it didn't workout here at ULL, coach Hud seems like a great guy. At least I should be able to see Taylor 2x play here!! Take Care my friend!

From: txhunter58
29-Dec-12
Florida, glad to hear that all your bow killed deer die within 1 minute. I haven't been so lucky. That said, if if ever comes to a vote in Texas, I would vote against it.

From: Genesis
29-Dec-12
Hunting 555,it makes for an interesting story but the neck of balloons is what was used.Someone was pulling your leg (no pun intended)

Size matters.....:)

From: Trkytrack
29-Dec-12
"helped the killing ability of recurves"???? WTH is that?

From: Genesis
29-Dec-12
WTH it is was an attempt to show how the limited range of a recurve (it's all that was used at the inception of the pod)was extended.

The POD's explosion of use was back when THE ONLY BOW was a recurve/longbow.As broadheads and arrow flight and shooting know how grew the POD faded.

Sorry not to provide the controversy you seek!

30-Dec-12
Bou'bound,

The meat is eatable as the drug "breaks down" due to heat during the cooking process.

From: midwest
30-Dec-12
"The meat is eatable as the drug "breaks down" due to heat during the cooking process."

Yes, I'm sure I would have no problem serving it to my family.

From: Genesis
30-Dec-12
As Woody stated it was a much different time in Bowhunting.......heck it was a much different time in life.The stuff was EASILY obtainable through Veternarians,Physicians and Pharmacists all who were jeopardizing their carreers so the local Joe could increase his chances at a deer.

Many a fine preacher hunted with a pod or hypoderm attached......the question of ethics at the time was never raised because just about every authoritative peer group had no problem with it.

IT kills deer and deer taste good.Life was pretty simple. :)

There were actually a few recorded deaths of humans from the stuff but people were falling out of trees all the time so it wasn't much outcry over it.

From: IaHawkeye
30-Dec-12
"The pod was pretty much accepted "back then"

Not by the P&Y , NFAA, NAA,PBS, etc..

I've been shooing and hunting with a bow for 55+ years and don't remember the pod ever being accepted anywhere except Mississippi and SC. I'm sure there were other isolated areas of use.(all illegal).

I know about Fred and his expeimenting with it, but that was probably technically illegal too.(FFAD approved?)

To say that most thought it was ethical (50's,60's,and later) is certainly not true in my experiences. WE( My club)through a guy out of our club when he was spotted huting with the pod. (late 60's)

From: tradmt
30-Dec-12
Maybe I could put some in a small bait pile! Wow, just think of the money I could save, no bow, no arrows. I would not even have to be present to win! Now thats huntin'!

From: Paul@thefort
30-Dec-12
When I was still the CBA/DOW Liaison, 5 years ago ie, 2007, I attended each monthly Colorado Wildlife Commission meeting.

At one of these meeting, a list of violations were presented and the years that the hunter may lose his hunting privilages.

It seems a well know bow hunter (hosted a TV show) from Missippi, hired a deer guide in Colorado and also a videographer to film the hunt.

During the hunt, the guide as well as the camera man noticed an arrow attachment below the broadhead. When they questioned the hunter, during the hunt, he explained that it was a "counter balancing attachment". While the hunter did not kill a deer, he did draw his bow with this attachment on the arrow.

The outfillter contacted the DOW and a law enforcement officer showed up that evening, claiming he was just checking out a few hunting operations. When asked for his equipment, the hunter hemmed around and then finally showed the officer his bow and quiver. The pod arrows were there.

The hunter then explained that he had made a mistake and picked up the wrong quiver with the pods attached, in that he had just returned from an Africa hunting trip where they were legal.

The officer did not buy that and wrote a violation/fine. The hunter paid the fine not realizing that he may lose his hunting privilages in Colorado as well as in as many as 39 other states. I believe he lost his hunting privilages for 5 years but some of the commission members wanted to ban him for life.

I was so curious why someone who hunts around the country did not know of the states regulations as all states have ban this product I called his number but was unable to talk to him, but was able to talk to the person who sponsered his TV show. He stated the Colorado DOW had "blind sided" this hunter and blamed the DOW for the outcome.

I taked to the president of the Missippi Bow hunters and he said the drug was ellegal in Missippi but still can be purchased and used. THe Missippi Division of Wildlife seems to look the other way.

I was also told, that up to 40% of the bow hunters in Missippi may still use the "poison pod". I can not prove that statement.

I have also heard the Fred Bear connection in that he was the person who contacted a chemist in Missippi to formulate the pod as Fred was concerned that too many early long and recurve bow hunters were not prepaired to shoot deer with a bow and arrow and were (might be) wounding too many animals.

Paul Navarre

From: Ollie
31-Dec-12
Comments that imply the pod was acceptable and widely used in earlier times are just false. The pod was accepted by bowhunters only in Mississippi and a few other lesser-known locations. The use of pods outside of Mississippi was extremely limited and in most cases involved bowhunters from Mississippi traveling and hunting outside the state and illegally bringing their pod arrows with them. Most bowhunters elsewhere scorned the use of pods as well as those hunters who used them. There was organized effort among bowhunters and bowhunting organizations to educate the bowhunting community and fish and game departments about poison-tipped arrows and to ensure the use of such equipment would remain confined to Mississippi.

From: IaHawkeye
31-Dec-12
Ollie, Thanks for reafirming what I said on my post !

Woody, I think your way off base. Were you a bowhunter in the 50's, 60's 70's ? Did you belong to any of the national archery groups?If you did you wouldn't be saying what you did.

Never the less, Happy new year!

31-Dec-12
Whoever said that 40% of bow hunters from Mississippi may use the pod just don't know what they are talking about. I'm from Mississippi and don't even know anybody that uses it anymore. It was used quite a bit in the 70's and early 80's but it is mostly a forgotten topic. Although I hear there are some bow shops that may sell it that is the exception instead of the rule. I can testify that this subject hardly ever comes up anymore unless it's from someone that does not reside in Mississippi.

From: Genesis
01-Jan-13
Ollie,30 years ago....PEER GROUP would not include nameless bowhunters from another state and what their opinion was on hunting methodology.

DEER CAMP was a very important facet of life in MS and that group was all that mattered.If law enforcement didn't care and your preacher was using them then where is the problem? :)It certainly wasn't close to "cruel" as you state.

I think it is well documented that the POD had little support/use outside a few States.

From: Buffalo1
01-Jan-13
+1 mature8pointer. You are spot on my man.

I have found that most non Mississippi bowhunter have more questions about the use of the "pod", "poison", "dope", etc than they do information, knowledge,experience and valid answers on the subject with the subject.

I would love to know the source of the statistic "40%" of the MS bowhunters use a pod.

Buffalo1- another MS bowhunter

From: Paul@thefort
01-Jan-13
Mature8pt and Buffalo1, I might have overstated the use of the pod,(40%?????????) as I was told 5 years ago. But the point is, the pod was still being used in Missippi at that time according to my source and the Missippi hunter that was fined in Colordo, surely had access to it and I am sure other hunters did also.

Not trying to point fingers but trying to add to the conversation.

Sorry if I misquoted the percentages and thanks for challenging the number. Paul

From: Genesis
01-Jan-13
Paul,I would say the % would be under 5%.That said,of the many,many bowhunters I know in the state NONE use it.

The last time I've seen it was about 5 years ago on a Senior Crossbow user.

IMO,it's use waned not on any ethical basis but on the great recovery rates of newer archery tech.

Gutshots in many instances expired very slowly to peritonitis as the drug was poorly absorbed by the GI tract.

Remember it was a day when seeing A DEER in A YEAR was an event and to take one with a gun was great fanfare.Bowhunters rarely got opportunies and to take one with a bow (pod aided) was truly an act of woodsmanship.

Every bowhunter that influenced me as a young man at some point used and quit using the pod in their lifetime and that was at least 30 years ago.

Understand,I do not stand in defense but am only giving a historical perspective of the rationale of it's use.

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