Arrow impact changing with temperature!
Equipment
All,
My arrow impact is changing with differing temperatures. Had this happen last winter but thought I could have bumped my sights. I changed my strings and cables this summer just in case but it is happening again now that the temps are dipping. For example, I shot last weeek when it was about 25 and it was shooting a little high. Dialed it in. Left the bow outside all night and shot it first thing in the morning when it was 10 degrees. Hitting about 4" low and 2" left at 20 yards. Did the same thing about a week later - off when the temp warmed back up. Obviously I can't have this!!
My setup is a 62 lbs. Mathews Z7 - it has a drop away rest (can't remember brand). I have made sure I am shooting with the same amount of clothes, etc. so it is not that. I also marked all points on my string and cables to make sure they aren't creeping and it doesn't appear to be - also the sight is tight. Arrow flight is good. Also shooting the same arrow and broadhead to remove that possibility (head is a 100 gr. G5 Montec). Any thoughts on this? I like the bow and really enjoy hunting when it is COLD but I must have 100% confidence in my bow. Also, the weather can fluctuate 30 degrees this time of year within a week. One last thing - I leave my bow cased but in the garage, which is not heated. I don't have it in and out of the heat.
Thanks,
Lee
You have done what I would have thought was the cause. You kept the shooter at the same temperature. Can you get your hands on a chronograph? I wonder if the cams are sticking that seems like a long shot but I have had firearms fail to work because of too much of the wrong lube. It would be worth cleaning your cam bushings. Take my"advice" as speculation only. Bob
all kinds of things can be effected by the cold: - was on the string - string itself (goes for cables) - limbs - any oil on the cams/axles - rest gets more stiff (springs freeze up)
Is it the fact that your prob wearing more clothes and having to change ur form a bit? Guys bundle up for cold weather but don't take into account it could change ur shooting from a bit...just a thought
No on the clothes because I am shooting the same clothes when testing as that was my first thought - will try to get my hands on a chrono.
Lee
Next time you shoot, check your peep to see if you have any attic rotation. Could be your string.
Tried with and without gloves - use thin ones and no difference - marked peep and it isn't moving - also use a kisser button.
Lee
What kind of cable slide? What kind of arrow?
Several of us used to fight this problem back in the "day". We were competing seriously and really noticed a change of a couple inches in point of impact.
One thing that puzzled the heck out of us but was noticed by more than one person was that if you shot the same arrow several times it would come back to the right spot. NO, I'm not nuts!!! We never did figure that one out.
Another thing that seemed to change POI was temperature changes with sand cast risers, but I wouldn't think that would affect things these days - especially with the bow that you say you are shooting.
Different cable slide materials are affected differently by temperature.
Have fun!
DDD
What DDD said about the arrow impact coming back to zero makes me wonder if it's a side-effect of cold arrows that aren't flexing like they normally do. You could try to keep some of your arrows cold with your bow and keep some warm in the house and shoot them side by side to see if there is a differs point of impact.
Interesting on the arrows - the cable slide is actually two rollers that came on the bow - the arrows are gold tip pro hunters - 5575 - I will try the arrows - I can't hardly believe it is the bow - as you say DDD this isn't back in the day - I am intrigued about the arrows - will post the results - of course it is warm today!
temperature affects everything and anything - I can't think of one thing that it would not. Cold shrinks and heat expands, that's the law of physics.
Take simple rubber band. Stretch it in 100 degrees. Put same rubber band in freezer for an hour. Stretch it. It's not the same.
Bow limbs are not rubber bands - but they still must bend and violently recoil in order to propell an arrow. The arrow will not flex the same in 100 degrees as it would below zero. Your string would behave differently too, as would your own body's muscles.
Anything that stretches, bends, and constricts, will be impacted by temperature. Part of reason why I continually shoot as season progresses with my gear, and try to see what happens in colder temps if my POI changes out to 40 yards. I do see slight differences, usually my POI raises in the colder temps because I think things get tighter and less limber. Since I don't hunt much below 18 degrees, it's never an issue but if i were to do ND, I would sure want to sight in at minus 20 if that was what I was hunting in...
I agree - just can't imagine sighting in constantly - often 15 in the morn and 35 mid day - 20 degree temp change but still don't think it should matter 4 to 5 inches of diff at 20 yds
I can't believe that temperature would have this much affect on your setup.
What type of strings did you put on your bow?
Standard Mathew strings - I am having a hard time with it too - 4" at 20 is about a foot at 40! I've been bow hunting for 30 years and am a pretty decent shot - don't ever remember having this issue - I am also not sighting in at major temp changes - pretty typical weather in the midwest
Quote: "Hitting about 4" low and 2" left at 20 yards"
That's huge, and extremely unlikely to have anything to do with temperature.
Are you shooting field tips or broadheads? In calm conditions? Are you using the same individual arrows in each comparative shooting session?
Shot a sheep at -26, then one at plus 26 C. Same, bow, same arrows, same set up, same hole. Shoot the same bowset up at home when it is -30 and then when its 90 degrees outside. Same hole. While agree temperature affect everything, they should not affect your bow. If it does, change your setup.
Stick sender - same clothes, same arrow with the same broadhead in good conditions. I sighted the bow dead on at 20 and was nailing the spot all the way to 40 - hung the bow outside on a branch and shot first thing in the morning - it had moved that much overnight - was 25 in day and 12 - 15 in the morn. Shot multiple times with the same impact point - resighted to dead on at 20 - shot after work and was now high in the afternoon - feel like I am chasing my tail with it - again I marked the string, peep, etc and nothing appears to be moving - just a temp change
If all else is the same, my guess would be the dropaway.
I will check the rest - seems to be working fine but may be the culprit? Maybe dropping slower or something although I don't notice any erratic flight. I HATE to have to get rid of my bow but if I can't figure this out I will. I have to have 100% confidence that it will perform. As tthomas said - I expect it to shoot in the same hole.
Thanks for all the input everyone.
Lee
Just looked at the rest - it is a QAD HD. Zeroed the bow and going to leave it out this eve - will post pic in morn
my bow is 10 years old, or more....I forget. I have shot it at 80 above and down to 35 below. no change in accuracy out to 50 yards.
I am wondering with all the speed with the new bows if they are more affected by changes in temps.
my setup is old....shoots only 235 fps and I use aluminum arrows with vanes and shoot fingers with only a simple flipper rest.
could be with all the tiny mechanical things with the new bows and how many seemingly smaller parts on them that temp might change things. I don't know.
Could be - the bow shoots about 265 so is not very speedy
Air is denser when it is cold. Faster arrow flight of newer bows would include more friction while the arrow is in flight. Multiplied effects in colder air. I would wonder if the fletch is not enough to stablize the arrow in denser air where it was in warmer. Just a thought.
I've been shooting out to 100 yards since summer and now into December. 80 degree temperature swing and zero difference in point of impact for me. The only thing I've noticed is a slight difference in peep rotation but it hasn't been enough to change the sight picture or justify an adjustment.
Stopped in at the Mathews dealer this eve to discuss and he thought it very well may be the reverse assist cable rollers - said they are sealed bearings and the grease could be affected by the cold or possibly a bad bearing - gonna swap them in the morn. Hopefully that is it.
Lee
Hello Lee: The bearings seem logical to me. Can you get grease less bearings? Do the cams have bushings or are the bearing type?
Greenmountain - not sure - will know tomorrow, though and will be sure and post - hopefully that is all there is to it!
You may not like this but it is YOU. Granted temps w/expansion and contraction with different rates for different bow part materials do apply. It is negligible though if you are a consistant shooter at reasonable distances. The body in colder temps reacts accordingly with much more negative results in FORM alone than your equipment. Your mind becomes somewhat unconsciously pre-occupied with the temps and we become victims of "the power of suggestion" especially FPS.
You can find out. Rotate your equipment and yourself inside and outside your home in every possible denominated factor. Record your results. ;-) If the equation persists sell the bow for physcological reasons alone.
The Rock
Before I go see the head shrinker :) I am going to pursue the rollers - I agree that the cold could and liky does affect my accuracy after a few hours of sitting in 15 degree weather but we are talking the bow being cold and me not being cold when I am shooting these practice runs. Bow shot dead on this morning but it is 39 outside right now - I am not seeing a drop until it is sure enough cold - supposed to be 19 tomorrow - will keep you posted.
Thanks, Lee
Might be the smallest of things. Your nocks.
Temperature change effecting elasticity changes the tension of them on string, resultant serving pinch or reduction of such, etc.
Simple test is to keep a couple of them inside and then in your pocket with the rest of your rig and arrows and half the nocks already on your arrows left out in the cold.
People sometimes trivialize one of the last things that actually touches your string.
If that's it, then new nocks of same kind or a diff brand, etc
I have been reading this thread with keen interest. If you read all of the possible causes I wanted to throw in another probable cause: several small factors. I go back to the chronograph as an important step. It WILL tell you if something is changing. I suspect that is very important to the shooter's confidence. Let's all keep thinking and offering possible variables.
I've heard of this before so I got curious a few weeks ago. Let my bow sit outside in -40 degree temps for about 2 hours. Came outside and shot at 20, 30 and 40 yards. Everything hit just as it does at +40.
Wish I could help, but I didn't have to do anything to "fix" mine but if I was to guess, it'd be the strings.
Put it in a shooting machine if you want to know if it is the bow or if it is you.
Others, including myself, don't see anything change in the cold. When it does, it is usually me.
Keep us posted on your results.
Will do - anxiously awaiting the morn - got the new cable rollers in place and zeroed the bow at 49 degrees today - supposed to be 19 tomorrow and 6 Monday - the only thought I had about the chronograph is once i re-zeroed my 20 yard pin is the 30 and 40 were dead on - I would have expected that gap to widen as well if it slowed it any. Mathews tech theory was either a bad bearing or grease thickening and throwing the timing off - don't know but one of the rollers did show a worn spot in one area.
Lee
If I recall Medicineman did a good bit of extreme temp equipment testing with his polar bear hunt and didn't find much difference if any.
But it does prove out that when your release freezes you are screwed.... =D
I think his rig had a slider and not rollers. Could be grease in the bearings a bit stiff. Many newer bows have bearings on the axles as well. May be on to something, in the past it has always been sliders and bushings with light or no oil.
If it shoots bad this morning. Take a hair dryer and warm your rollers and see what happens. Then warm the bearing. Then do your rest. Do one thing at a time till something helps.
Good luck
Just hit 30 degrees - pretty dang windy but shot between gusts at 20 yds - same hole as 49 degrees last eve - weatherman is showin a degree drop an hour until it hits 6 in the morn - will shoot just before dark and again in the morn - I like the hair dryer trick - will try if impact changes - it is still to warm to tell
Lee I had a bow that was time sensitive...the longer I held it the further right it would hit..it was consistent. Weak limb I suppose. I just sighted in so it was dead on for a normal hold and 2 inches left on a quick shot. It was borrowed...couldn't afford to buy one ath the time.
Lee I had a bow that was time sensitive...the longer I held it the further right it would hit..it was consistent. Weak limb I suppose. I just sighted in so it was dead on for a normal hold and 2 inches left on a quick shot. It was borrowed...couldn't afford to buy one ath the time.
Shorten your draw length. You aren't getting to full draw or are creeping off. God Bless
26.5" draw length - also there is no creep in this bow - if you don't hold against the wall it will rip your shoulder out of the socket! 26 degrees before dark and still dead on. I will know for sure in the morning.
Lee
Maybe lengthen it if you are bending your bow arm a lot. Temperature's in the range your talking about should not affect materials we use at the ranges we use them. Unless you got a real screwy something going on. Which you don't or you would know it. I'm willing to bet it is linked to your form. God Bless
This thread could go to 1,000 posts but if jake and Tom say it does not matter that is all I need to hear. Those guys have been in it all.
Bou - agree 100% with both of them and that is what I expect out of my equipment - unfortunately my bow isn't doing that and I am trying to figure out what the issue is - I am hopeful it is bad cable rollers as the bow typically shoots well. This is the 4th season I have hunted with it and I shoot it frequently. It has served me very well in the past and I would like it to continue to do so.
As far as it being to short or too long, etc. again this is happening in my yard when I am letting it sit all night and I am walking outside for a half dozen shots - my form shouldn't be breaking down that quickly. That is why I feel it is something with the bow. Hopefully it will be dead on in the morn and can happily say it was the rollers.
Lee
Can you have someone else shoot your bow at the different temps to see if it happens for them?
Guys - just shot - it is 10 degrees out now and plenty cold. Bow is dead on with the sights set at 49 degrees originally! The bow has sat outside the whole time this post has been going on to include leaving the arrow and broadhead and my release with it. The only thing changed was the cable rollers. It took the Mathews tech about 5 minutes to swap them - he told me he has seen them fail in the past. His theory was the seal could have failed and possibly some moisture entered into the system which affected it when it got cold. When I discussed the issue with him the bearings were his first thought - mentioned the reverse assist on my bow. I appreciate all of the input - all had good ideas! It was very frustrating.
Thanks, Lee P.s. I posted a pic - took three shots - all were within an inch of this one. The 49 degree shot is somewhere above.
"Lee I had a bow that was time sensitive...the longer I held it the further right it would hit..it was consistent. Weak limb I suppose. I just sighted in so it was dead on for a normal hold and 2 inches left on a quick shot. It was borrowed"
That there is one of the funniest post ever TBM - thanks for that...
That's like saying " I once had a bow that was weight sensitive, the more I cranked it up the less accurate it became"..... LOL
I'm glad you were able to figure it out.
Now if I could figure out how that video got posted in my last reply. I have no idea how that happened. I can't edit out of there either.
Lee I had a bow that was time sensitive...the longer I held it the further right it would hit..it was consistent. Weak limb I suppose. I just sighted in so it was dead on for a normal hold and 2 inches left on a quick shot. It was borrowed...couldn't afford to buy one ath the time.
That is actually an accurate post, but the weak limb was TBMs left arm not the bow limb.
Hunt 98 - my pic got posted sideways - must be gremlins! I'll leave your bull in there - too pretty to edit out! Congrats on a fine bull! Lee.
I am glad I figured it out too - gonna go chase some deer this eve - couldn't go in good conscience with it acting up - this weAther should get them on their feet
Glad you found it. Also glad we didn't get a pool going...my money would have been on the nocks per Bill in MI's post above 8^).
Had one brand new nock that consistently placed a brand new arrow 6" left of group center @ 20 once when checking out a fresh dozen.
I always number them and check for consistency first time out. This was the only time that precaution paid off in alerting me to a "cull".
That nock had no visible flaws, nor could I detect any crookedness, and the fit to the string felt consistent with the others. I even dissected it as carefully as I could after determining that it was the culprit by swapping it a different shaft,and could detect no internal voids.
Must have just been weaker or softer on one side. The arrow POI was right with the group after replacing the faulty nock.
Seemed reasonable to me that if it happened once for me, it might have happened to an entire batch for someone else, and that such a batch would be temp sensitive.
Thanks for posting the problem and the solution. May very well help someone else with the same problem. Most guys here are very glad to help with their experience and knowledge, and the pleasure of helping is greatly enhanced when we get to hear the successful result.
I agree on the follow up - always hate to get sucked into a thread and the owner never finishes! Lee
Lee- I would not mind about the picture but it is not mine. It is a nice bull.
Lee, Thank you for the education.
Hello Lee: Thank you for the follow u. I am glad to say this is one of the better recent posts. Many offered opinions and it appears all involved wanted to help. Please follow up in a couple weeks and let us know all is well.
Not wanting to hijack your thread, but Hi Jack...I was serious..the bow was time sensitive. It was predictable and I allowed for it . If I shot quicker than normal I had it sighted to hit a couple inches left. Normal hold was set dead on. Long hold would go right up to 4 inches at 40. I made a 50 yardish shot on a turkey with that bow and hit dead on, but the arrow bounced off...hit the wing butt. Killed same bird a few days later. Bows can do some funny things sometimes.
I notice a difference in POI when I have a big change of elevation. I always have to adjust when I am at my hunting area vs home in the back yard. Normally it is just a slight adjustment.
I went out and did some practice today. It was colder out today than it has been. My arrows were hitting high at all yardages. It was weird. Don't know if it was the cold or what. But I've been shooting good for months and the coldest day had my arrows hitting higher. I will shoot again when it's warmer and see if they are still high
Wow, old thread here, has TBM posts in it! I shot at Golden today Ermine and I shot real well, no changes in my eyeball!
TBM is back! Don't know whether to cry or laugh. Inane are always.
