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Mozambique elephant bowhunt - May 2014
Mathews Inc.
Mozambique elephant bowhunt - May 2014
International
Contributors to this thread:
Medicinemann 19-Feb-14
BOWNBIRDHNTR 19-Feb-14
loesshillsarcher 19-Feb-14
APauls 19-Feb-14
IdyllwildArcher 19-Feb-14
boothill 19-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 19-Feb-14
CTCrow 19-Feb-14
loesshillsarcher 19-Feb-14
loesshillsarcher 19-Feb-14
Medicinemann 19-Feb-14
loesshillsarcher 19-Feb-14
Medicinemann 19-Feb-14
Medicinemann 19-Feb-14
kota-man 19-Feb-14
loesshillsarcher 19-Feb-14
loprofile 19-Feb-14
loesshillsarcher 19-Feb-14
Medicinemann 19-Feb-14
kota-man 19-Feb-14
TEmbry 19-Feb-14
Mad Trapper 20-Feb-14
Bigpizzaman 20-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 20-Feb-14
Bigpizzaman 20-Feb-14
Medicinemann 20-Feb-14
BO-N-ARO 20-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 20-Feb-14
Bigpizzaman 20-Feb-14
Bigpizzaman 20-Feb-14
Beendare 20-Feb-14
Bou'bound 21-Feb-14
Bigpizzaman 21-Feb-14
loesshillsarcher 21-Feb-14
Medicinemann 21-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 21-Feb-14
Medicinemann 21-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 21-Feb-14
cityhunter 21-Feb-14
Stekewood 21-Feb-14
Medicinemann 22-Feb-14
JCHB 22-Feb-14
W.P. Archer 22-Feb-14
Medicinemann 22-Feb-14
Beendare 22-Feb-14
Bou'bound 22-Feb-14
Medicinemann 22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 22-Feb-14
Medicinemann 22-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 22-Feb-14
fulldraw 22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 23-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 23-Feb-14
JCHB 24-Feb-14
GhostBird 24-Feb-14
Buff 24-Feb-14
Medicinemann 24-Feb-14
Buff 24-Feb-14
Medicinemann 24-Feb-14
edge1771 24-Feb-14
Medicinemann 24-Feb-14
Bou'bound 24-Feb-14
wild1 24-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 24-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 24-Feb-14
MATHEWSSHOOTER 24-Feb-14
Medicinemann 24-Feb-14
Jeff Budik 24-Feb-14
Medicinemann 24-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 25-Feb-14
Willieboat 25-Feb-14
Medicinemann 25-Feb-14
Medicinemann 25-Feb-14
Clutch 25-Feb-14
Ken Moody 25-Feb-14
Medicinemann 25-Feb-14
wild1 25-Feb-14
JCHB 25-Feb-14
orionsbrother 25-Feb-14
kota-man 25-Feb-14
Medicinemann 25-Feb-14
JCHB 25-Feb-14
orionsbrother 25-Feb-14
Ace 25-Feb-14
Russell 25-Feb-14
Buffalo1 25-Feb-14
TD 25-Feb-14
kota-man 25-Feb-14
IdyllwildArcher 25-Feb-14
Rayzor 25-Feb-14
Box 25-Feb-14
Buffalo1 25-Feb-14
Bigpizzaman 25-Feb-14
Bigpizzaman 25-Feb-14
Buffalo1 25-Feb-14
tobywon 25-Feb-14
boothill 25-Feb-14
Medicinemann 25-Feb-14
Medicinemann 25-Feb-14
drycreek 25-Feb-14
JCHB 26-Feb-14
Medicinemann 26-Feb-14
Box 26-Feb-14
Medicinemann 26-Feb-14
Medicinemann 26-Feb-14
kota-man 26-Feb-14
Bou'bound 26-Feb-14
mtoomey 26-Feb-14
Drop tine 26-Feb-14
tthomas 26-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 27-Feb-14
tthomas 27-Feb-14
JCHB 27-Feb-14
loprofile 27-Feb-14
tthomas 27-Feb-14
boothill 27-Feb-14
INDBowhunter2 27-Feb-14
boothill 27-Feb-14
Bou'bound 27-Feb-14
Medicinemann 27-Feb-14
INDBowhunter2 27-Feb-14
boothill 27-Feb-14
TD 27-Feb-14
Ricardo Longoria 27-Feb-14
Ricardo Longoria 27-Feb-14
Ken Moody 27-Feb-14
Ken Moody 27-Feb-14
W.P. Archer 27-Feb-14
Medicinemann 27-Feb-14
Ricardo Longoria 27-Feb-14
Bowboy 27-Feb-14
Lucas 27-Feb-14
Medicinemann 27-Feb-14
JCHB 28-Feb-14
Bou'bound 28-Feb-14
Ricardo Longoria 28-Feb-14
Box 28-Feb-14
TurkeyBowMaster 28-Feb-14
Rick M 28-Feb-14
Rick M 28-Feb-14
Box 28-Feb-14
TD 28-Feb-14
Medicinemann 28-Feb-14
Stekewood 28-Feb-14
Greg Kush 01-Mar-14
Greg Kush 01-Mar-14
JCHB 01-Mar-14
Medicinemann 01-Mar-14
Mountain sheep 01-Mar-14
drycreek 01-Mar-14
Medicinemann 05-Mar-14
Purdue 05-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 05-Mar-14
Ironbow 05-Mar-14
Medicinemann 06-Mar-14
Bou'bound 06-Mar-14
Medicinemann 06-Mar-14
Rock 06-Mar-14
Mad Trapper 06-Mar-14
tthomas 06-Mar-14
Medicinemann 06-Mar-14
Bou'bound 06-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 06-Mar-14
Medicinemann 06-Mar-14
Medicinemann 06-Mar-14
Bou'bound 06-Mar-14
Medicinemann 06-Mar-14
Bou'bound 06-Mar-14
Chip T. 06-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 06-Mar-14
tthomas 06-Mar-14
Medicinemann 06-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 06-Mar-14
Medicinemann 06-Mar-14
Az_tines 06-Mar-14
TD 06-Mar-14
grazak 06-Mar-14
Ironbow 06-Mar-14
Bou'bound 09-Mar-14
Ricardo Longoria 09-Mar-14
Medicinemann 09-Mar-14
orionsbrother 09-Mar-14
Medicinemann 09-Mar-14
orionsbrother 09-Mar-14
Nick Muche 09-Mar-14
Medicinemann 09-Mar-14
Wayne Helmick 09-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 09-Mar-14
Bou'bound 09-Mar-14
Ace 09-Mar-14
Wayne Helmick 10-Mar-14
Mad Trapper 10-Mar-14
Bou'bound 10-Mar-14
leo17 10-Mar-14
Medicinemann 10-Mar-14
Mad Trapper 10-Mar-14
Medicinemann 10-Mar-14
Bigpizzaman 10-Mar-14
Medicinemann 10-Mar-14
CurveBow 10-Mar-14
Chip T. 10-Mar-14
Bou'bound 10-Mar-14
Medicinemann 10-Mar-14
bb 10-Mar-14
Beendare 10-Mar-14
Txnrog 11-Mar-14
Bou'bound 12-Mar-14
Ken Moody 12-Mar-14
Bou'bound 12-Mar-14
Box 12-Mar-14
Medicinemann 12-Mar-14
Bou'bound 12-Mar-14
TD 12-Mar-14
Medicinemann 12-Mar-14
loesshillsarcher 12-Mar-14
Medicinemann 12-Mar-14
loesshillsarcher 12-Mar-14
Bou'bound 12-Mar-14
Bou'bound 12-Mar-14
TD 12-Mar-14
Mad Trapper 12-Mar-14
Mad Trapper 12-Mar-14
Beendare 12-Mar-14
Bou'bound 13-Mar-14
Medicinemann 13-Mar-14
Bou'bound 13-Mar-14
Bowfreak 13-Mar-14
Ace 13-Mar-14
Bou'bound 14-Mar-14
Bigpizzaman 14-Mar-14
Ken Moody 14-Mar-14
Bigpizzaman 14-Mar-14
Bou'bound 14-Mar-14
boothill 14-Mar-14
Medicinemann 15-Mar-14
JCHB 15-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 15-Mar-14
Bou'bound 15-Mar-14
Zbone 15-Mar-14
Medicinemann 15-Mar-14
Bou'bound 15-Mar-14
Medicinemann 15-Mar-14
Medicinemann 15-Mar-14
Bou'bound 15-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 15-Mar-14
Medicinemann 15-Mar-14
Bou'bound 15-Mar-14
Medicinemann 15-Mar-14
Bou'bound 15-Mar-14
scottiedog422 15-Mar-14
Medicinemann 15-Mar-14
Bou'bound 15-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 15-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 16-Mar-14
Medicinemann 16-Mar-14
Eric B. 16-Mar-14
Bou'bound 16-Mar-14
BB 16-Mar-14
Medicinemann 16-Mar-14
Medicinemann 16-Mar-14
Medicinemann 16-Mar-14
Medicinemann 16-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 16-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 16-Mar-14
Medicinemann 16-Mar-14
Bou'bound 16-Mar-14
Medicinemann 16-Mar-14
Bou'bound 16-Mar-14
Medicinemann 17-Mar-14
Buffalo1 17-Mar-14
Bou'bound 17-Mar-14
Rick M 17-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 18-Mar-14
Medicinemann 18-Mar-14
troymclellan 18-Mar-14
Pete In Fairbanks 18-Mar-14
Pyrannah 18-Mar-14
Florida Mike 18-Mar-14
Medicinemann 18-Mar-14
Eric B. 18-Mar-14
loesshillsarcher 18-Mar-14
loesshillsarcher 18-Mar-14
loesshillsarcher 18-Mar-14
Beendare 18-Mar-14
TURKEY STALKER 18-Mar-14
ESP 18-Mar-14
Bou'bound 18-Mar-14
Bou'bound 18-Mar-14
Medicinemann 19-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 19-Mar-14
Medicinemann 19-Mar-14
GhostBird 19-Mar-14
Bowfreak 19-Mar-14
BowMad23 19-Mar-14
Medicinemann 19-Mar-14
BowMad23 19-Mar-14
Bou'bound 19-Mar-14
Medicinemann 19-Mar-14
ESP 19-Mar-14
JCHB 20-Mar-14
Medicinemann 20-Mar-14
JCHB 20-Mar-14
Bou'bound 20-Mar-14
Medicinemann 20-Mar-14
Stekewood 20-Mar-14
Ken Moody 20-Mar-14
Stekewood 20-Mar-14
TD 20-Mar-14
Stekewood 20-Mar-14
Txnrog 20-Mar-14
Medicinemann 21-Mar-14
Bou'bound 21-Mar-14
Purdue 21-Mar-14
Stekewood 21-Mar-14
JCHB 21-Mar-14
Medicinemann 21-Mar-14
Paul@thefort 21-Mar-14
Medicinemann 21-Mar-14
Txnrog 21-Mar-14
Medicinemann 21-Mar-14
Chip T. 21-Mar-14
Bou'bound 21-Mar-14
Medicinemann 21-Mar-14
Ken Moody 21-Mar-14
davidthearcher 21-Mar-14
Bou'bound 21-Mar-14
Ken Moody 21-Mar-14
Buffalo1 21-Mar-14
Buffalo1 21-Mar-14
Buffalo1 21-Mar-14
Buffalo1 21-Mar-14
Medicinemann 21-Mar-14
Bou'bound 22-Mar-14
Ken Moody 22-Mar-14
Ricardo Longoria 22-Mar-14
Medicinemann 22-Mar-14
Buffalo1 22-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 22-Mar-14
TD 22-Mar-14
Buffalo1 22-Mar-14
Buffalo1 22-Mar-14
Bou'bound 23-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 23-Mar-14
Medicinemann 23-Mar-14
MBMule 24-Mar-14
Pete In Fairbanks 24-Mar-14
Txnrog 24-Mar-14
Chip T. 24-Mar-14
Fuzzy 24-Mar-14
TD 24-Mar-14
Buffalo1 24-Mar-14
bb 24-Mar-14
Bou'bound 24-Mar-14
Beendare 24-Mar-14
Ironbow 25-Mar-14
Medicinemann 26-Mar-14
Chip T. 26-Mar-14
Bou'bound 28-Mar-14
TD 28-Mar-14
MBMule 28-Mar-14
Bou'bound 28-Mar-14
Buffalo1 28-Mar-14
Medicinemann 28-Mar-14
Buffalo1 29-Mar-14
Medicinemann 30-Mar-14
Medicinemann 30-Mar-14
Bou'bound 30-Mar-14
Medicinemann 30-Mar-14
Bou'bound 30-Mar-14
TurkeyBowMaster 30-Mar-14
Medicinemann 30-Mar-14
Medicinemann 31-Mar-14
loesshillsarcher 31-Mar-14
Medicinemann 31-Mar-14
Txnrog 31-Mar-14
Medicinemann 31-Mar-14
Bou'bound 04-Apr-14
GotBowAz 04-Apr-14
Barty1970 05-Apr-14
Medicinemann 05-Apr-14
Medicinemann 05-Apr-14
Medicinemann 05-Apr-14
Medicinemann 05-Apr-14
loesshillsarcher 07-Apr-14
Bou'bound 07-Apr-14
Fuzzy 07-Apr-14
Bou'bound 07-Apr-14
Barty1970 07-Apr-14
loesshillsarcher 07-Apr-14
Medicinemann 07-Apr-14
orionsbrother 07-Apr-14
Fuzzy 07-Apr-14
Fuzzy 07-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 07-Apr-14
Bou'bound 11-Apr-14
Medicinemann 11-Apr-14
Medicinemann 11-Apr-14
Zbone 11-Apr-14
Badlands 11-Apr-14
Medicinemann 11-Apr-14
Txnrog 11-Apr-14
Bou'bound 11-Apr-14
Medicinemann 11-Apr-14
IdyllwildArcher 12-Apr-14
Medicinemann 12-Apr-14
orionsbrother 12-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 12-Apr-14
Bou'bound 12-Apr-14
jkoenig04 12-Apr-14
Medicinemann 12-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 12-Apr-14
Medicinemann 12-Apr-14
Medicinemann 12-Apr-14
Bou'bound 13-Apr-14
orionsbrother 13-Apr-14
Medicinemann 13-Apr-14
orionsbrother 13-Apr-14
Medicinemann 13-Apr-14
orionsbrother 13-Apr-14
Medicinemann 13-Apr-14
W.P. Archer 14-Apr-14
Medicinemann 14-Apr-14
dj 14-Apr-14
dj 14-Apr-14
Buffalo1 14-Apr-14
CurveBow 15-Apr-14
Ken Moody 15-Apr-14
NoWiser 15-Apr-14
wild1 15-Apr-14
loesshillsarcher 15-Apr-14
orionsbrother 15-Apr-14
Bou'bound 15-Apr-14
Txnrog 15-Apr-14
Buffalo1 15-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 15-Apr-14
Medicinemann 15-Apr-14
IdyllwildArcher 15-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 15-Apr-14
Medicinemann 16-Apr-14
Julius K 16-Apr-14
Mad Trapper 16-Apr-14
Fuzzy 16-Apr-14
iceman 16-Apr-14
orionsbrother 16-Apr-14
Rick M 16-Apr-14
wild1 16-Apr-14
Mad Trapper 16-Apr-14
wild1 16-Apr-14
Fuzzy 16-Apr-14
Wayne Helmick 16-Apr-14
Steve Leffler 16-Apr-14
Buffalo1 16-Apr-14
Ken Moody 16-Apr-14
Medicinemann 16-Apr-14
Hawkeye 16-Apr-14
orionsbrother 16-Apr-14
Pyrannah 16-Apr-14
Mountain sheep 16-Apr-14
Bowboy 16-Apr-14
drycreek 16-Apr-14
Bou'bound 16-Apr-14
Bill in MI 16-Apr-14
Nick Muche 16-Apr-14
Chip T. 16-Apr-14
Medicinemann 17-Apr-14
Fuzzy 17-Apr-14
Barty1970 17-Apr-14
Fuzzy 17-Apr-14
Fuzzy 17-Apr-14
Medicinemann 17-Apr-14
CurveBow 17-Apr-14
Ken Moody 17-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 17-Apr-14
Medicinemann 17-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 17-Apr-14
Bou'bound 17-Apr-14
Stekewood 17-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 17-Apr-14
Bigpizzaman 18-Apr-14
Ken Moody 18-Apr-14
Ace 18-Apr-14
Ken Moody 18-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 18-Apr-14
TurkeyBowMaster 18-Apr-14
Bou'bound 19-Apr-14
Hawkeye 19-Apr-14
Ken Moody 19-Apr-14
Hawkeye 19-Apr-14
Bowboy 20-Apr-14
Mad Trapper 21-Apr-14
From: Medicinemann
19-Feb-14
Three months and one week until Pat Lefemine and I head over to Mozambique to bowhunt for elephant. For anyone that has any expertise regarding the African bowhunting adventure....whether it be travel advice, equipment suggestions, currency conversions, vaccination suggestions, or related information....feel free to post it here.

I have contacted several people that have significant experience bowhunting for dangerous game....and I asked them how elephant bowhunting compares with polar bear, grizzly bear, etc.....they all said pretty much the same thing.....on a scale of 1 to 10, if elephant is a 10, the bears are a 5.

Because of the thick Mopani brush, I am being told to expect a 12 yard shot for elephant. However, I also intend to get a hippo tag. Therefore, I plan on having at least three pins zeroed in for these heavier than average arrows...I am thinking 20, 30, and 40 yards.

When I think back on my polar bear bowhunt, and my grizzly bear bowhunt....I just can't imagine my pucker factor being increased exponentially! I may have to ask Loesshillsarcher for a dental pick...in case Pat needs to remove me from Tembo's toes..LOL.

Ken Moody....would you please give me a call when convenient for you?

Rayzor....I posted a question for you in my previous thread about arrow/broadhead recommendations for Africa...as it pertained to 300 gr versus 325 gr tips. When time allows, would you please give me your thoughts on one of the two threads....or both.

I am going to buy a new camera in the next month or so, because it is my intention to essentially post photos of this hunt in similar fashion the recent thread that I did about New Zealand. It won't just be about the hunt (although MOST of it will be....)....it will hopefully be about the entire African experience in one of the less developed countries (from a hunting perspective). I like sharing these adventures with fellow Bowhunters. It is also particularly advantageous to be able to chronicle my hunts through Bowsite, as Pat's forum provides a great method to archive such adventures.

19-Feb-14
Looking forward to following along Jake. I think Pete is getting a hold of you to discuss booking this as well. He and I are seriously kicking around booking this hunt.

From: BOWNBIRDHNTR
19-Feb-14
I can't wait to see your hunt on bowsite!

CameraLand out of New York carries both camera and hunting optics. Someone from Bowsite mentioned them a few years ago to me and I have gotten some good deals from them. I have not had any issues with any of my purchases and they seemed very knowledgeable when I was asking about different rangefinder options. Shipping was very fast as well.

I hope you are able to get another McD's receipt to use back in the U.S. Maybe you can order a "Hippo Meal" or a "Big Pac"!

Best of Luck, Jeff

19-Feb-14
When I was watching a video about elephant hunting years ago, the hunter was lubricating his arrows with Vaseline possibly. Do you intend to lubricate your arrows in order to increase penetration??

From: APauls
19-Feb-14
oh that's dirty

19-Feb-14
Rofl

From: boothill
19-Feb-14
Vaseline...Astroglide, that is wrong on so many levels.

19-Feb-14
"I can't wait to see your hunt on bowsite!"

X2 BownBirdHntr

This is going to be the superbowl of bowsite threads.

From: CTCrow
19-Feb-14
Just stand behind Pat the whole time. If he runs, trip him. That's my advice.

Pat, are you going to be posting boot pictures?

19-Feb-14
You will both be greasing up your shafts! Can't wait for your hunts to start.

19-Feb-14
Pat, Please snap a pic when Jake is on the stalk while adorning his native garb(human mandible hanging outfit). You had posted his camo on an earlier thread. It should blend in well.

From: Medicinemann
19-Feb-14
Man, I am glad that I started this thread....so I can delete posts as required, lest Loesshillsarcher and Pat start giving even more helpful "tips"....

Somehow, I suspect that if Tembo starts chasing Pat around Mozambique, it won't be Vaseline that Tembo is slipping on!!!

For those that don't know Ned Greer too well, suffice it to say that his guide, Victor, had some very "revealing" photos of Ned during his desert bighorn sheep hunt. Now this talk about vaseline....and Ned never having married.....suddenly, things are starting to take on a brand new meaning. LMAO!!!

CTCrow, Trip him?...like hell!! He might catch his balance....what do you think those extra arrows are for? One in each leg should slow him down enough...

Now can we please get back to some legitimate contributions regarding Africa....?

19-Feb-14
I was attempting to be legitimate. Sorry. What have you guys settled on as far as your weapons. Poundage, weight of arrows, heads? lube?(dangitcouldnthelpmyself)

From: Medicinemann
19-Feb-14
Your attempts to be legitimate are ill (as in illegitimate...like your red headed bambinos in Mexico....)

From: Medicinemann
19-Feb-14
Is it safe to assume that it will be a Mathews product?

From: kota-man
19-Feb-14
Jake and Pat...I've been to Africa a few times and have made my way around North America. Plains Game with a bow and Dangerous Game with a rifle. I will say this: NOTHING in NA will compare with the adrenaline rush of hunting Elephant....NOTHING. I've had Grizzly bears come to my tent in Alaska and survived a violent Cape Buffalo charge in Zim and NOTHING compares to hunting Elephants.

I draw from a couple experiences: The first, I was lucky enough to be the "back up" rifle on an elephant hunt in Zim. We made several stalks before finding the right situation. The guy with the tag missed the brain at 75 yards and the PH and I shot him through the lungs surrounded by a herd of elephants. The biggest rush by far in my hunting career. At times we were within 40 yards of the herd and I have never had more of an adreline rush in my life.

My second experience was while Leopard hunting along a river. We were in a grass blind awaiting a leopard when we heard elephants trumpeting coming up the river. My PH said "Cory, we need to get the %&()(*# out of here NOW. When I open the door run as fast as you can as far as you can." (in the dark, through the jungle) Again...I don't know that I've ever had so much adrenaline flowing through me. I could've won Olympic Gold in Steeple Chase that night.

My point is this: I know you both have experienced some WILD hunts in your day. But, I will say you have never experienced what you are about to experience being in close to elephants. There is nothing like it in the world.

As far as gear goes...you really don't need much. A couple changes of clothes and your bows. A jacket, cap and gloves for chilly rides in the AM and PM.

I can't wait to follow along on this adventure. If I wasn't in "sheep mode" right now, I'd already have booked this hunt. Enjoy.

19-Feb-14
within 40 yards of a herd of elephants must be a mesmerizing experience. wowza

From: loprofile
19-Feb-14
Sounds like a couple of changes of underwear might be needed.

19-Feb-14
I just finished a conversation with a gentleman that has killed 18 elephants over the years. He has lots of stories.

From: Medicinemann
19-Feb-14
Ned,

Were they gun kills, bow kills, or both?

From: kota-man
19-Feb-14
Wow...I can't imagine being in on 18 elephant hunts. Bet everyone of them was a great story.

From: TEmbry
19-Feb-14
This thread will be fun to follow. Living vicariously through you guys!

From: Mad Trapper
20-Feb-14
I have to confess, I don't know what "Astroglide" is, but I did overhear Pat use the term several times when we were in Kansas. I assumed it was some new arrow lube sponsor.

From: Bigpizzaman
20-Feb-14
Elephants are defiantly a "10"! If you think Mama bears are bad get caught between a calf and a Mama Ellie!!! I'm sure by now (with the way you research) you know more than I do about Bow hunting Elephants. Good Luck!! Savor every moment it's the stuff dreams are made of!!!

20-Feb-14
Does the ph shoot the elephant with a gun after someone shoots it with an arrow? The reason I ask us I see them shoot a follow up when the hunter uses a gun.Sometimes there are 2 people shooting filfollow up shots.

From: Bigpizzaman
20-Feb-14
TBM,

It all depends on what the Bull does after the shot. Yes there are usually 2 rifles present and needed but if the Bull moves away there should be no rifle shot.

From: Medicinemann
20-Feb-14
BPM,

Wasn't it you that told me a couple years ago to aim higher than expected for a heart shot on an elephant? After looking at photos of the size of an elephant's heart, I can understand why!!

From: BO-N-ARO
20-Feb-14
What a great adventure! Yip, heavy arrows pushed with as much weight as you can draw. Two blade cut on contact heads. Biggest obstacle you will have is getting between the ribs, cause you wont go through one. As always, quartering away, behind the front leg when it is far forward. Two or more PH's with BIC guns that know how to use them and when not to use them. Good luck, be safe!! Looking forward to joining in.

20-Feb-14
"Biggest obstacle you will have is getting between the ribs, cause you wont go through one"

Just curious...how thick are the ribs?

From: Bigpizzaman
20-Feb-14

Bigpizzaman's embedded Photo
Bigpizzaman's embedded Photo
Jake, That is correct!!

TBM, Think a true 2x4 of hardwood!

From: Bigpizzaman
20-Feb-14

Bigpizzaman's embedded Photo
Bigpizzaman's embedded Photo
That shot resulted in this hit.

From: Beendare
20-Feb-14
Jake, I spent some time talking to Ken Moody at the SCI show and now I really want to book him for cape buff. I was ral impressed, not cocky and not a pushy sales guy like many of the African outfits.

I don't follow the Africa stuff that much- except on Nat Geo- so it's no surprise I was under the impression elephants are somewhat rare- not the case. Ken said many of those villages are very happy to see hunters come thin out the elephant herds that are wiping out their crops and defoliating huge swaths of country. Seems elephants eat a lot- who knew- grin.

Ken did say its easier to get close to elephants for a shot vs cape buff due to their habit of staying in thick cover and not as many eyes as a buff herd. Best of luck guys.

From: Bou'bound
21-Feb-14
Given the ribs are 2x4 and you can't go through them...........and you can't aim between them.............is this nothing more than a crap shoot at the side of the animal and a hope that you miss bone?

Miss rib and you win............

Hit rib and the elephant wins............

But you can't predict on any shot if you hit or miss?

From: Bigpizzaman
21-Feb-14
Ribs are rounded or curved so you can hit one and still penetrate, just not "Center Punch.

Quartered away should all but eliminate any "Center Punch"

It is still hunting and not killing, if everyone only took shots with 100% guarantee, well........

21-Feb-14
all gun kills.

From: Medicinemann
21-Feb-14
Bou'bound ,

For the longest time, that was my take on elephant hunting. You can kill them with an arrow if you miss the ribs. However, since you can't see the ribs, (so that you could aim between them), it was a crap shoot.

Recently, I have been told that if your bow is generating 116ft/lb to 124 ft/lb range for Kinetic Energy, you will actually penetrate the body cavity EVEN if you centerpunch the rib. My set-up is in the 110 ft/lb range right now....but I obviously need to tweak some more....

21-Feb-14
118..whats it take to get that much? Are you planning on getting more?

From: Medicinemann
21-Feb-14
While I have had my bow as high as 112#, at that time, I was shooting "logs" that had enough spine to handle it. I am interested in keeping my arrow diameter as small as possible....but it comes at a cost....I can't jack up the poundage as high as I would otherwise. I am under the impression that the FMJ shafts at 17.7 gpi are only spined for 90# - 94# for my draw length. I am still tweaking, trying to find the best compromise between arrow specifications, bow poundage, kinetic energy, etc.....

I should also mention that there are a pair of 57 year old shoulders that may have something to say about my poundage as well.....

21-Feb-14
I built an arrow that is stiff as heck.. prolly goes 20 gpi. It's an old AFC 2400 slid inside a arrow I think is a GT. If I install 100 grain brass insert it would be pretty heavy. You could prolly get around 1200 grains with that setup and a 300 grain head...maybe 1300

From: cityhunter
21-Feb-14
Be safe !!! I don't think u can compare NA game to African Big Game ,, especially elephant!!!!Im sure even with a lung hit death would take a few !!!

From: Stekewood
21-Feb-14
I am looking forward to this feature more than any other that's ever been run on here. Elephant is high ony bucket list but if I manage to go, it will be a brain shot with a .416 for me. Hope you guys get it done with no back up shot required but even if is it will undoubtedly be an unbelievable experience. The most important thing is that everyone involved makes it out of there unscathed. Can't wait!

From: Medicinemann
22-Feb-14
My biggest recent setback is in the form of my insert. I located some stainless steel inserts. They are almost as heavy as brass, but not prone to shearing, like the brass are known to do.

The front of the SS inserts are the same diameter as the back of the broadhead ferrules. I am good to go there as well.

The problem is that the 3/8" external neck of the insert is actually tapered towards the BACK of the insert neck .... making it slightly smaller than the OD on my arrow shafts.... creating a slight "lip" where the back of the insert touches the leading edge of the shaft.

It is not an appreciable amount....but with my kinetic energy being potentially marginal for penetrating a centered rib, I am not sure that I want to take that chance. Additionally, with higher poundages, I am not sure that the arrow shaft might not "mushroom" on the back of the insert

I am actually tempted to consider taking some silicon with me. I'll be damned if I would use Ned's suggestion of Vaseline. I sure as hell ain't using Pat's Astroglide (I didn't even know what it was...and I used to own a pharmacy)...and if I catch Pat looking at Xrays of Jacquomo's junk while we are over there, I am gone!!!!!LOL

Meanwhile, the tweaking continues.....

From: JCHB
22-Feb-14

JCHB's embedded Photo
JCHB's embedded Photo
I hunted elephant with archery gear in 2011 and 2012. My hunt was for a tuskless cow. The first safari did not result in a shot opportunity (lots of elephants though) and the second resulted in an old single tusker down. In terms of shooting distance and shot placement I can add my .10c worth. My PH encouraged me to shoot "into the lines (wrinkles)" that radiate up from the armpit. His logic was that this would hit the plumbing at the top of the heart and if the shot went low it would square up the heart. The problem with this is that there is a lot of grey skin and it is hard to define exactly where to shoot. My shot at 15 meters was a hands length (6 inches) too high. I got complete penetration and the Broadhead split a rib on the far side with half the blade sticking out. In summary it was a perfect double lung shot that would have floored any other animal but an elephant. My shot was in the last half hour of the day and we followed up early the next morning. After miles of tracking we found her on her last legs, leaning against a tree. The PH offered that we could wait as she was about to go but I wanted to finish her off as soon as possible. I was able to get to 22 meters as she turned, catching our scent. I put another arrow into the armpit pocket but hit a rib square on. The crack sounded like a plank getting hit with a baseball bat. The arrow split the rib and went in about half way. The next second the elephant mustered up whatever energy it had left and charged. The PH put a 500 grain 458 lott round into the brain and it was over. Remember we were only 20 meters away and did not have the luxury of finding out whether the old girl could sustain the charge or not. It was bittersweet as I feel I could not claim a clean "bow kill". My equipment was a Bowtech Tribute set at 93 pounds with an Easton Big Game arrow, 100gr brass insert, a length of steel threaded bar behind that and an ashby 315gr.Fletches were 5 inch feathers. I have a 28 inch draw length. Total weight was 1100gr My overall feeling was that I needed a little more horsepower and a slightly heavier arrow (1200 - 1250)to overcome the issue of hitting a rib square on. Shot placement is absolutely key. You have to hit the heart/plumbing. A double lung will not put the ele down quickly. The ribs become thicker the higher you go up the elephant so my recommendation is the "armpit" shot. The skin is a little thinner here too. I would strongly recommend feathers over plastic as the feathers lie flat when penetrating, unlike plastic that stays rigid. Don't try a long range shot. I would suggest about 20 - 25 meters is ideal as any closer may not give the arrow enough time to stabilize. Any further and you are losing energy from your arrow and you need every bit! I would get as many elephant photos as possible and print them out, carefully marking the shot placement on each one so that at the moment of truth you have it printed on your brain. At 20 meters it's like aiming at a barn door but actually you have to be quite precise. Choice of PH is very important. My first safari had a very hardworking and dogged PH but with no archery experience. It showed in small and subtle ways. My second safari was guided by a PH who had a good amount of bowhunting experience (he had a Tribute himself). I could see the difference. I look forward to following your prep and hunt on Bowsite. JCHB

From: W.P. Archer
22-Feb-14
Thanks for the post JCHB... Although I have hunted Africa once before and am heading there again in 2015 I don't think ill ever hunt Elephant so it's always good to read stories of other hunters...

Thanks for taking the time to post.

From: Medicinemann
22-Feb-14
JCHB,

Your post alone just made this thread worthwhile. Since the ribs radiate downward from the spine, it makes sense that they would be thicker, as you go higher on the animal. I just hadn't thought about it.

Also glad to know about insisting on a heart shot, versus a double lung shot. I had heard that an elephant's lung were attached to the ribs, so they don't collapse when pierced. I don't know if that is urban myth, as I have never seen that substantiated by a veterinarian. Based on your comments, it no longer matters.....a heart shot it is!!

If you had to guess, since you believed that your shot was 6" too high, how far up from the bottom of the elephant should I be aiming....18"-20"? I will probably go to the nearest zoo (Erie, Pa) tomorrow and see if I can identify the wrinkles that you are referring to....I may post some photos on here double checking to make sure that I understand exactly where YOU would now aim....

Upon autopsy, when you talk about half of the broadhead sticking out...are you talking about sticking out of the rib, or breaking the skin on the other side? Were both shots on the same side of the elephant...or one on each side. In your photo, is this the entrance side of the first shot, entrance side of the second shot, or did the broadhead from the first shot actually break the skin, and this is the exit side of your first shot?

Was your shot quartering away? I have heard that elephant have very good eyesight for motion....if at all possible, I was hoping to stalk a bull that is feeding. they tend to rock back and forth when pulling off limbs and bark, etc, and I was hoping that by waiting until the bull was as "stretched" as possible (in the backward direction) that his ribs would be furthest apart. Am I correct in that assumption?

Am I correct in assuming that your preference for feathers of plastic is so they will "lay down" easily? Are you suggesting that even the plastic of the vanes may decrease the penetration an appreciable amount? Although, by the time 25-28 inches of arrow have slid through a rib, three hard plastic vanes/blazers could provide enough drag to rob the arrow of its remaining energy. However, if my arrow hangs up in the rib of an elephant by the vanes, I have 27-28 inches of arrow in FRONT of it....do I care if the arrow didn't go further?

Feel free to PM me, if you wish....I would love to question you at length about several other aspects of your hunt. Thank you very much for taking to the time to post to this thread....Pat and I will definitely be taking this information into account.

Jake

From: Beendare
22-Feb-14
Interesting stuff......

My take on the vanes....I shot a water buff that got complete penetration with My Blazer fletching held in a rib on the off side...pounding through thick bones the stiff fletch is a factor

From: Bou'bound
22-Feb-14
How could lungs ever function they were attached to the ribs

From: Medicinemann
22-Feb-14
Bou'

Like I said, I never got confirmation of that statement...but like JCHB mentioned, "In summary it was a perfect double lung shot that would have floored any other animal but an elephant".....so maybe there is some physiological explanation for it....unless it simply took that long for the lungs to fill up blood....which doesn't seem likely.

I wondered if the pulmonary system of pachyderms had some unique feature regarding the "bellows action" of their lungs.....?

From: Buffalo1
22-Feb-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Jake & AstroGlide Pat,

Here are some photos that I took of elephants that may help in identifying the armpit wrinkle that JCHB is talking about.

From: Buffalo1
22-Feb-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo

From: Buffalo1
22-Feb-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo

From: Buffalo1
22-Feb-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo

From: Buffalo1
22-Feb-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo

From: Buffalo1
22-Feb-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Jake,

Here are some photos of elephant devastation of foraging

From: Buffalo1
22-Feb-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Another foraging photo. Your idea of catching them while feeding could be feasible.

From: Medicinemann
22-Feb-14
Buffalo1 (Greg),

I REALLY like your fifth photo.....that seems like a pretty darn good shot angle, but since the vitals on African game tend to be a little further forward, a little more quartering away might be even better. The trade off is that the more quartering away angle I wish for is increasing the chance of hitting a rib. The elephant's head is obscured by brush, minimizing the chance of it detecting any motion as we stalk within bowrange.

Is that another elephant behind it?.....not that I am worried about a pass through shot hurting a second animal....but people HAVE had pass throughs on elephants before.

I remember bowhunting for brown bear about 1996 (I think) with AAA Outfitters in Alaska. There was a father and son in camp named Art and Steve Kobrine. I believe that Art Kobrine was the neurosurgeon that performed surgery on Brady after the assassination attempt on Reagan.

They actually had a video with them in camp. They showed us video of Steve Kobrine killing an African elephant with a 99# set-up. Art was filming it from in front of the bull (not the best place to be located, I might add), and you could actually see the arrow as Steve shot....it clearly passed completely through the bull....pretty impressive footage.

JCHB.....feel free to describe the wrinkles that you look for....and where you would aim....I see a LOT of wrinkles.....

22-Feb-14

From: fulldraw
22-Feb-14
Check out the recommendations from the Alaska Bowhunting Company with their Grizzly Styks/single bevel broadhead combinations. Took in their seminars at SCI and talked with them at their booth several times. Switching over to their system - heavy FOC and up front weight. Anxious to try this spring on black bears.

From: Buffalo1
23-Feb-14
Jake,

In photo five the elephant's trunk is almost touching the ground and there is a tree behind the elephant's trunk.

23-Feb-14
Jake, please keep us posted on which arrow/broadhead you decide to shoot and how it is built, ke etc.

From: JCHB
24-Feb-14
Medicineman, I will try and address all your questions. Let me know if there is anything I have not covered. My initial shot entered on the ele's right hand side. The photo shows the entrance wound but is a little deceiving as the beast has rolled over and the skin has moved up, giving the impression that the wound is higher than it actually was. The first arrow split the left hand rib (opposite side) and only just cut the skin. The second shot entry was on the left hand side but as I mentioned only went in about half an arrow length. The first shot was flat broadside but the front leg was slightly back and not in the ideal "stretched forward" position. I take your comment on the fletch issue but consider that if you don't hit a rib on entry you still want maximum penetration with as little drag as possible. I am convinced that the feathers assisted me in getting a few more inches by folding down flat. Watch out for an animal behind your target. If you are really lucky and miss a rib on the way in and out (it happens!) a powerful rig with the right arrow may well exit. Check out an elephants chest the way it curves up from the belly and between the legs. It is not full depth all the way forward (I hope this makes sense). If I was clever with computers I would put a red dot on some of Buffalo's photos to indicate exactly where I would place my arrow. I do believe that the perfect spot is in the armpit pocket in the "crease". The only problem is the "crease" can actually be quite long. Measured from the bottom of the chest I would recommend between 30-40% up rather than the 50% where I placed my first shot. I'm no anatomy specialist but hear me loud and clear that you need a heart/plumbing shot. A lung shot, even double lung like mine, will not put the ele down within a reasonable time. I don't think I would prefer a quartering away shot to a flat broadside as there is the risk of losing penetration if the broadhead skids on a rib. I was so pumped that when I first drew on my ele I forgot to anchor and the cams pulled forward. I quickly re-drew and then executed the shot. The ele did not notice but we were downwind and had been completely still, although only fifteen meters away. Steve Kobrine has shot almost all African game and would be a good person to talk to if he is on the forum. I am very interested in the gear that you intend using. Don't underestimate the adrenaline rush. A containment rest of some sort is a must. It must hold your arrow from the start, not be activated by the string or limbs. With heavy poundage and a shot of adrenaline, that bow can wobble around quite a bit on the actual draw. JCHB

From: GhostBird
24-Feb-14
Jake, are you going to foot the shaft behind the broadhead? I understand wanting to keep the arrow slim for penetration, however, I would foot the shaft with aluminum to beef up the weak link which is the insert and front of the shaft. Shooting a very heavy arrow & heavy draw to create the energy required could be a disaster if the broadhead hits elephant bone.

Thanks for the interesting insights JCHB.

From: Buff
24-Feb-14

Buff's embedded Photo
Buff's embedded Photo
I used a 300 grain Tuff head with a titanum broadhead adaptorand 100 grain insert. My shaft was a beman flash shaft inserted into a Heritage 350 shaft with a 4" footing, all JB welded together. I hit a rib going in and bent the broadhead at the tip but still managed about 20" of penetration.

From: Medicinemann
24-Feb-14
JCHB,

Just so I am clear, you mention a containment rest of some sort is a must....you mean like a whisker biscuit? Is that what you used? Are you ruling out all forms of drop away rests for this particular adventure, because they are activated by string/limbs?

Is this primarily to negate the effect of brush possibly pulling the arrow off of the rest during the moment that the bow is drawn?...where the motion required to "reseat" the arrow could alert the elephant? I ask that because you "double clutched" the bow, even though it wasn't a function of the arrow rest.....but you also admit that you were very lucky to get away with it. Being downwind and still for a while would certainly help to make sure that the animal was calm at the time of the shot....lucky break....

Did you use weight tubes.....or the 50 grain add on weights that you screw onto the back of the insert (so you can add as many as you want)? If weight "tubes", do they also screw into the back of the inserts?

If you believe that you were 6" too high with your shot at the heart, that is actually a little bit of a blessing for me. If I aim 6" lower than you did, the rib will be further from the spine, and thinning as it goes lower....right?....because it means a little more penetration, if I should hit it......

Buff,

Who makes those titanium adapters? Are they threaded on the back?

Ghostbird,

I would telescope one arrow inside of another before I would "foot" them. If that means aluminum, so be it. I am not knowledgeable enough to feel comfortable getting a footed arrow to fly accurately, regardless of distance (nor do I know anyone around here that I would trust to do it)....besides, using an entire aluminum shaft will allow me to get additional arrow weight, as well as reinforcing the integrity of the arrow wall. I don't want a brass insert either....I want some form of steel....

Fellow Bowsiters,

Could one of you with more computer skills than JCHB or myself put a couple different colored dots on where you think JCHB was aiming at the elephant? Please use Buffalo1's photo of the standing animal (the one where the elephant's head is hidden by leaves). Then JCHB can fine tune the precise position of his suggested arrow placement, if necessary.

From: Buff
24-Feb-14

Buff's embedded Photo
Buff's embedded Photo
The next day when we went back in ( The other Elepants ran us off after the shot) the elephant had traveled less than 100 yards before going down.

I have also hunted Cape buffalo, Lion and Australian Water Buffalo. The Elephant was the most exciting. They had every opportunity to kill us. By far the silliest thing a man could ever do on purpose. You are in for a great time.

PS You are hunting with the same outfitter I used, he is a great guy

From: Medicinemann
24-Feb-14
Buff,

What was the draw weight of your recurve? Way to get it done!! What was your shot distance?

From: edge1771
24-Feb-14

edge1771's embedded Photo
edge1771's embedded Photo
Hope this helps a little. I may be a little off, but the red dot is supposed to be where JCHB made his hit, and the green dot is the "Ideal" spot. If I need to move them, let me know!

From: Medicinemann
24-Feb-14
JCHB,

I was thinking about aiming left of the lower dot (where it touches the shadow on the armpit) and maybe a couple inches higher....hoping to hit the very top of the heart.....How about you, Buff?

I think that the red is higher than where he actually hit, Brad....(but thanks for the dots)!! The skin went limp as the animal fell on its side....and the blood stains may appear higher than the actual point of impact from where the arrow hit....based on JCHB's comment about skin movement.

From: Bou'bound
24-Feb-14
Buff

Nice job!

From: wild1
24-Feb-14
In regards to elephants lungs: I'm not an expert, so those that are, correct me. One year while studying black rhinos in East Africa, I had to do a bit of reading on elephants also (go figure). I seem to remember that elephant lungs are very unique to the mammal world. Since they're probably related to manatees (and originally spent most of their time in water), their lungs can withstand enormous pressure. Elephants don't have the conventional pleural cavity (with liquid), their cavity is filled with dense connective tissue - no pleural space. They can withstand extreme pressure without rupturing blood vessels. In short, aim for the heart.

24-Feb-14
I saw Gary Boger shoot a cape buffallo and hit him back and high and the thing went down in less than 10 seconds. He shot another right in the sweet spot that looked perfect...like high heart low lung and the thing went forever and they had to shoot him again. Makes you wonder when stuff like that happens...I would be digging in the gut pile finding out.

24-Feb-14
The heart of a elephant weighs 40 to 60 pounds and beats 30 times per minute. His lungs are attached to the diaphragm and he draws in air through his mouth, trunk, and forehead. Just googled it up..interesting stuff...heart shot only and probably only 15 pounds of the heart will be a vital hit...yall better practice up on them turkeys and if you can't hit a turkey...good luck !!!

24-Feb-14
Jake hows the coffee

From: Medicinemann
24-Feb-14
They draw in air through their forehead?!!

From: Jeff Budik
24-Feb-14
Most mammals breathe air by expanding their chest, through muscular action. When the chest is expanded, a membrane (visceral pleura) attached to the lungs remains still while another membrane (parietal pleura) attached to the chest wall expands outward. The fluid-filled space between the two membranes is called the pleural cavity which widens during chest expansion. The widened pleural cavity helps create a vacuum-like effect, allowing air to be pulled into the lungs.

This process differs in elephants because they do not have a pleural cavity. Their lungs are directly attached to the chest wall and therefore rely on direct muscular action to expand the lungs. This direct muscular control enables underwater breathing with the trunk used as a snorkel.

From: Medicinemann
24-Feb-14
Bou'bound,

It looks like you just got your answer......

25-Feb-14
The whole breathing underwater deal doesn't make sence as to why the lungs are attached but the drinking through their trunk does. They have to pull so much vacuum to pull all that water up that if their lungs were not attached they would collapse before they could bring water up that high. That mades sence because they are the only animal with a trunk and the only animal with lungs attached to the internal wall if the ribs and diaohram. So an arrow through the lungs just created a new way for air to come in and unless you hit a major vessel they don't go down. Our and their Creator never does anything by mistake...evolves...DNA disproved that theory.

From: Willieboat
25-Feb-14
Man can't wait to hear about this hunt after you guys get back !!

From: Medicinemann
25-Feb-14
Mike (Willieboat),

You may not have to wait very long. I know that Pat plans on taking his camera....and as long as everyone's safety isn't compromised, that guy is all about getting footage whenever he can.

I am also thinking about taking a satellite phone...just in case we wanted to do audio updates like we did for my polar bear bowhunts in 2006 and 2007.

From: Medicinemann
25-Feb-14
I received my KMHA packet yesterday.

Once we clear the airport in Johannesburg, we will overnight in the vicinity of Phalaborwa, South Africa. The following morning we will enter Kruger National Park and travel thru to the Mozambique border, clearing at Giriyondo. I will receive my Mozambique visa at this station. As we cross into Mozambique, we will travel thru the Limpopo National Park enroute to camp. Upon leaving the park, we will enter the hunting area and move on to our bush camp.

There was no mention made of any required shots, vaccinations, or anti-malarials in my KMHA packet (unless I missed them!). If anyone has experience regarding these matters, I would appreciate your input.

From: Clutch
25-Feb-14
SHOTS--Better safe then sorry -- that's what Paul Harvey always said--

From: Ken Moody
25-Feb-14
On the back of the price list under medical it states, consult your doctor for required medication. I don't provide medical advise as some are allergic to certain meds so speak with your physician for your own regimen. I will say that you will probably not want to use Larium as your anti-malaria med of choice. It's quite potent and can induce hallucinations in some.

From: Medicinemann
25-Feb-14
Thanks Ken.....the price list for the permits and fees had no writing on the back, so I never checked the back of the other fee sheet. I had already planned on using Malarone versus Larium for the very reason that you (and other Bowsiters have mentioned).

From: wild1
25-Feb-14
I landed in Phalaborwa (Hendrik van Eck Airport) once, and upon landing, we had to avoid an impala and several warthogs. While getting off the plane, two cheetahs were crossing the dirt runway right behind us. You guys are in for quite the adventure. Don't know if your time permits it, but Kruger is pretty impressive (Satara area almost always has big cats around).

From: JCHB
25-Feb-14
Medicineman, I'll comment on the questions asked. I used a drop away rest (QAD) but it has the ability to be "pre set" by hand and thus is not reliant on the limbs/string activating it as you draw. The main issue is that your arrow cannot fall off the rest either while stalking or drawing. I would not use a biscuit rest as I believe some of the arrow's energy is used getting through the bristles. Not an issue when you hunt smaller game but with the biggest land animal you need every % you can get.

I also used a peep with a rubber tube. The idea was that in the heat of the moment, you would not have to worry about the peep rotating. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now! It did it's job properly but I prefer a tubeless peep like I have on my normal plains game rig (Bowtech Invasion 80lbs, 28in draw, 550gr total arrow weight). If/when I go again I will look at all the aspects of my gear afresh.

I inserted a length of threaded bar behind the insert (I used brass 100gr inserts)which was coated with epoxy. I think it was 4mm bar and it fitted into the Easton big game shaft perfectly.

I have to say that the ashby heads got some bad press at a stage (I think they had a bad batch) but mine did not bend at all in spite of splitting ribs.

For the shot placement the dots are about right, maybe just a few inches too far back. That having been said that ele is slightly quartering away and if the shot was taken from where the cameraman was filming the arrows would travel at a slight angle across it's chest. Remember that in Africa we tend to shoot more forward than US hunters. On a flat broadside on plains game we always go straight up the front leg into the "vital triangle" whereas US hunters shoot well behind the front leg.

As an aside, I had the opportunity to stalk and shoot a bushpig at 22 meters while it was foraging in the dry undergrowth . That big 1100gr arrow went through it like a hot knife through butter. It just reinforced how big and tough an elephant is.

Medicine, no more commentary until you give us a detailed report on your bow,etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Deal? JCHB

25-Feb-14
Wow! I will be following along as well. My hat is off to you guys. That may be more of an adrenaline rush than I could hope for.

Just reading this thread has Capstick's words about an unfortunate elephant hunter suffering the stomp and stir method of dispatch, resulting in his corpse being hauled away in five gallon pails, looking like "hairy cookie dough".

Be safe. Be successful. Post lots of pics, please.

From: kota-man
25-Feb-14
Ken...For as much time as you spent in the hospital, I would think that would qualify you to give medical advice! :)

Jake...I took Malarone on all of my trips and was fine. I also like to take a few Ambien with for the trip over and trip back. Makes me sleep like a BABY on the plane.

This thread makes me want to go back really bad...

From: Medicinemann
25-Feb-14
JCHB,

I am either going to use a 13 year old Mathews Custom Safari or an 5-6 year old Elite GT500. The Safari has killed every animal in North America and I have probably shot 100,000 arrows through it in its lifetime. If I get aggressive with the cables, I can get it up to 105#. Because of its solocam design, it is a very easy bow to draw (relatively speaking). I have two identical bows...so I am leaning in that direction.

The Elite GT500 is only pulling about 90#-91#, but it is a double cam bow that really makes my shoulders protest (getting old). I actually suspect that this hunt will be my "curtain call" for shooting higher poundages. The one possible exception to that would be if I ever decided to do a cape buffalo hunt (but I think that I could do a cape buffalo bowhunt with somewhat less draw weight).

From a KE perspective they are actually quite close.....both are in the 108-114 ft/lb range (depending on various arrow set-ups)....I ordered my arrows two months ago and STILL don't have them.....I just gave my archery shop an ultimatum yesterday ...supposedly, they will be here by Friday.

I have the 325 grain VPA broadheads. I am trying to avoid the brass inserts if at all possible, because of rumored shearing concerns. Buffs Titanium adapters would be of interest to me, if I can learn more about them. I haven't ruled out the 180-210 grain Silver Flames from German Kinetics, just because they are so damn sharp....my concern is them surviving a trip through a rib as well as the 50% heavier tips that may not be quite as sharp. However, I'll choose sharpness over mass.

Regarding the suggested point of impact...I know that most people suggest aiming further forward on African game. Am I safe in assuming that we DON'T want to hit straight up the leg, just because of their massive size? Based on many previous comments about the skin being thinner in the armpit, that is what I planned on "shooting for" (excuse the pun). If I aim about 3-4 inches left of the lower dot, and maybe 2-3 inches higher, I am thinking that the arrow should be right where it needs to be.

In a perfect scenario, the bull is feeding, rocking back and forth, essentially broadside, head obscurred by vegetation. As he rocks back and forth, his ribs are "stretched" as much as possible. That is when I would make my release at the previously mentioned spot.

Orionsbrother,

Years ago, someone posted photos of an elephant bowhunt...and their name was "Orion" something ....was that you....or possibly someone that you know.....? I'll have to see if I can find that thread in a search....

From: JCHB
25-Feb-14
Medicine, sounds like your kit will be up to the task. Your summary for the shot placement is spot on. Just a caution, I used the old style kinetic (150gr) to shoot a giraffe and the tip snapped off. It went through a rib. I think the VPA's with the longer profile (twin blade obviously!) are more suitable.

Bow wise, go with the most comfortable, confidence inspiring of your selection. The two bow idea sounds like an excellent insurance plan.

JCHB

25-Feb-14
Medicinemann - Nope. That wasn't me. I spent a short time in Northern Africa, but my only experience with hunting Africa comes from people I know who've hunted there and books. Capstick's words resonated with me.

I hope to hunt Africa in the future, but I think I'll live the elephant vicariously through you guys.

From: Ace
25-Feb-14
Jake, (Pat), I just checked with my Girlfriend who is a PA and does Travel Medicine. Her list for Mozambique was: Typhoid, Hep A, Hep B, and Polio if you're older than 54. She is checking on whether Yellow Fever was recommended.

From: Russell
25-Feb-14

Russell's Link
Here you go.

From: Buffalo1
25-Feb-14

Buffalo1's Link
Jake,

Jake,

Here is some basic travel medical advice:

Vaccinations required/suggested-

Hepatitis A (Shot life- for life) Hepatitis B (Shot life- for life Yellow Fever (Carry Yellow Card for proof of vaccination) Shot life- 10 yrs. Typhoid 2 yrs. Tetanus/Diphtheria Shot life 10 yrs, but really need one every 5 yrs. to scotch bad infections

Polio- (Shot life- for life) Shingles- (Shot life- for life) Get injection after 50 yrs. old Pneumonia- (Shot life- for life) Influenza- Annually

Prescriptions to acquire for trip:

Sleeping pills- Ambiem Respiratory infection (Z-Pac) Antibiotic- Cipro Diarhea protection- ?? Malaria- (I prefer Malarone)

I think it would be wise to check into protection for sleeping sickness for where you are traveling.

I also carry a small bottle of Imodium and Pepto Bismol.

I also carry 2 containers of Zicam to deal with colds.

I found the best/cheapest place to get vaccinations is at the State Health Department (much cheaper than Infectious Disease MD, etc.) Get a MD friend to give you Rx's for trip.

See attached CDC link for additional vaccination information. Hope this helps.

From: TD
25-Feb-14
LOL!

Ya gettin' all this Pat????

Seem to have lost him after the .... ahhh, never mind...

Jake, I think JCHB is correct with using feathers. I shot 5" feathers for many years and switched to vanes when I switched to a release. One of the first things I noticed is a tendency for the vanes to hang up from time to time on the far side. Not always but occasionally. Whole arrow passed through, just hanging by the vanes. Always fell out the first jump or two, almost a plus on deer/elk size animals as the arrow was easier to find. But definitely a difference. May not be a lot but when looking for every lil advantage though....

Shooting your gear you probably didn't notice it much. I was just shooting a whimpy 70lb and 28" draw.... =D

Weather likely not going to effect the feathers and I'm guessing your trusty, um, arrow-bearer(?) will take great care of them.... (I'd nick name him Quiver)

This is gonna be fun.... can hardly wait. Much appreciated taking us along the whole trip from planning through.... trunk steaks?

From: kota-man
25-Feb-14
Jake...After reading Buffs advice, I remembered that when I went to Moz and Zim I did get Tetanus, Hep A and B from my County Health Nurse and took a prescription of CIPRO with me "just in case". Never used the Cipro. All this to go along with the Malarone and Ambien.

From the research I did on Moz, the above blanketed the health issues pretty well... That is UNLESS, you choose to be 'friendly' with the natives...That opens up a whole other can of worms, and my best advice there would be abstinence. :)

25-Feb-14
What Ace said plus consider Rabies, but it's not essential.

You don't need Yellow Fever.

From: Rayzor
25-Feb-14

Rayzor's embedded Photo
Rayzor's embedded Photo
Our latest 300gr Double Bevels. One beast of a head with .115" thick blades and a ferrule that matches the main cutting angle makes for one heck of a little splitting awl.

Also, Medicineman...I must have missed the questions in posts you referred to. I'll look for them but you can send me an email if you like [email protected]

From: Box
25-Feb-14
A side note on the meds for you to consider. I did all those shots for a trip to Ken's place way back in 2005 for plains game. The nurse asked me to hang out a little bit to make sure I was feeling okay before driving home. I said I felt great and headed out. About halfway home I started getting dizzy and broke out in a serious cold sweat. Almost crashed my truck. Had to pull over and wait 15 minutes until I got back to feeling normal. It was really weird.

So you might want to hang out a little bit in the doctor's lobby before you kill yourself on the way home and cheat the elephant out of that pleasure.

From: Buffalo1
25-Feb-14
Box,

You are correct. The vaccinations need to be taken over a period of weeks, then allow for proper time for vaccines to become effective.

From: Bigpizzaman
25-Feb-14
Damn that's a lot of meds Buff! Bottle of Aspirin and a liter of Crown usually get me done!!

From: Bigpizzaman
25-Feb-14
Oh more important then meds, bring some Tony's ( Tony Chachere's seasoning)it's great on fresh grilled Elephant!!

From: Buffalo1
25-Feb-14
I was a Boy Scout- "Be Prepared"

I don't have a lot of confidence in the tribe witch doctor.

From: tobywon
25-Feb-14
Not to put the cart before the horse, but what can you bring back to the States if you get one and what are you guys looking at as far as taxidermy. I guess options are pretty limited. Would it be a replica shoulder or neck mount or something like that? Do you have the room for a mount of this size? Just wondering.

From: boothill
25-Feb-14
BPM....Tony's is good on everything!

Can't wait for this hunt to go down. That head that Rayzor posted up is ridiculous. I think we need a video of Jake practicing Chris Brackett style, the awesome mandible camo and all.

From: Medicinemann
25-Feb-14
Tobywon,

Mozambique elephants are not importable. The nearest village probably claims the animal. In seven hours, it will be a blood stain on the ground....nothing goes to waste.

Ken Moody may be able to shed more light on this, but I'll bet that one animal could feed a small village for 2-3 weeks.

From: Medicinemann
25-Feb-14
double post

From: drycreek
25-Feb-14
" I stopped doing the meds....... " Only so much space. Gotta have room for that Astro-whatever ! Reminds me of Paul Simon's " Slip-Slidin' Away ". Ya'll be safe as you can, and have a great hunt !

From: JCHB
26-Feb-14
Pat, lots of discussion from Medicine man but how about you tells us about your equipment? JCHB

From: Medicinemann
26-Feb-14
JCHB,

Good luck with your last request.....

From: Box
26-Feb-14
This thread does seem to be one sided without Pat's well thought out and comical preparations.

From: Medicinemann
26-Feb-14
Box,

Comical preparations....you have no idea what an understatement that is!!

Pat is a guy whose idea of "preparations" include leaving his safety harness/vest on the kitchen table next the bratwurst wrappers from his lunch in the middle of a Kansas whitetail bowhunt. Meanwhile, mine are are hanging up outside, and Tommy "Ozonic" Edgington's are in a hermetically sealed bubble getting a level 4 decontamination scrub down....and he wonders why that monster buck was scent checking him from the middle of the cornfield about 150 yards away.....LOL!!

I engage fellow bowsiters for helpful input on HIS OWN FORUM, and he busts my chops from the sofitel bar in Philly instead of adding to the discussion. He's obviously waiting for everyone else to do everything for him....he's probably a closet liberal....no wonder he always refers to Astroglide.

From: Medicinemann
26-Feb-14
I promise that we're gonna get THAT on video....in order for Pat to draw my bow, his draw hand will a foot behind his head.....and still no details about his elephant setup!!

From: kota-man
26-Feb-14
Maybe Pat is gonna bust out the Black Widow for Jumbo.

From: Bou'bound
26-Feb-14
Jake -

A foot behind his head?????????????????

I don't think he would get that 112# bow more than 3/16ths of an inch past brace height.

From: mtoomey
26-Feb-14

mtoomey's embedded Photo
mtoomey's embedded Photo
Here's a preview of the hunt...

From: Drop tine
26-Feb-14
If you are sneaking up to 12 yards, is the elephant aware of you and doesn't care or do you need to be that close without him knowing you are there at all?

Great thread, thanks for sharing this with us.

From: tthomas
26-Feb-14
What about lengthing your draw an inch and changing your anchor point. Might increase your speed by several feet and then up the KE a good bit. Recognize that you might not be as accurate but at 20 yards, that shouldn't be an issue.

Good luck Jake, you are the man.

27-Feb-14
I was thinking the same tthomas. I shoot 29 and that is for tree stand and blind hunting but I could easily ancor lower and pull 31 so I would think Jake or Pat could do the same. Long draw really helps everything concerning penetration, speed, amd power.

From: tthomas
27-Feb-14
Jake

I am breaking in a new string and have been shooting without a peep. After a few hundred shots will install a peep. For accuracy is pretty good (get the odd arrow that is out of sorts at 60 yards, wouldn't be an issue at ele distances) so I think if you dropped the peep and even if you can clip on to the string and eliminate a D Loop you might squeeze out a few more feet per second. Don't even entertain the idea of the rubber tube.

With your set up, 5 feet per second might give you another 6 or 7 pounds of KE.

I think you want a sight with at least a few pins. 20 - 50. They will be spaced out and I know you plan to shoot close but if you get an arrow into a big bull, a follow up shot at longer distance is nothing but insurance. Arrow speed and energy will be less but still perhaps enough to hasten the kill.

As JCHB said, also arrow flight is very important. I would stay with a drop away. Talk to Trophy Taker as they have different springs to handle heavier arrows. Send an email to Jarrod Lile at Trophy Taker as he set me up with the X-Treme FC PRO's. I am not sure if it is the model with the different springs but he will know. Order one and get him to send you some heavier springs.

From: JCHB
27-Feb-14
This thread has got me thinking about equipment. Once I had trained up I could pull 93lbs with a bit of an effort but I'm not sure I could go 100lbs. It seems to get exponentially more difficult. Lets say I decided that the old Bowtech Tribute needed replacing, what does a guy who hunts ele and hippo go for? Is there anyone out there that makes a 90 or 100lbs rig that will deliver more energy out of the same draw weight because of better cams, design, etc. I've always been keen on Bowtech but they only go up to 80lbs (I shoot an invasion). 80lbs does not cut it (in my opinion) for the serious heavies.

I'll be really interested in the opinion of the guys in the know.

JCHB

From: loprofile
27-Feb-14
Pat, lots of discussion from Medicine man but how about you tells us about your equipment? JCHB

Don't think we really want to go there, especially with the previous comments about astroglide.

From: tthomas
27-Feb-14
JCHB

I am not sure but you might get Bowtech to get you 90# limbs. Not sure. That new 360 RPM at 80#'s might get you there.

- Clip on the string and lose the D Loop - Throw that rubber tube away. I can help you square your peep. Or even don't use a peep. - try a 1/2 longer draw, not so good for form but at short distances who cares. could use one of those IQ or no peep sights.

Lots of bows, when cranked down go higher than the advertised weight. You might find a Bowtech that gets to 85#. My last one was 70#'s but it came from the factory at 74.6 #'s. Jako twists the cables and squeezes some more out of them.

I know the new Bowtech will outdo your Tribute. I shot an 80# Tribute and my current 70# Insanity is much faster.

Then maybe some of JakO's Astroglide :)

From: boothill
27-Feb-14
I remember seeing Jim Burnworth do a comparison between his older Bowtech at approx 102# with the new CPXL at approx 80# and the speeds and KE were almost identical. I will see if can find that video somewhere.

27-Feb-14
JCHB

You can go a few different directions. My PSE Evo @ 81# 29" draw was getting around 104 lbs of Kinetic energy. I could have got a few more pounds out of it and got Kinetic energy up to the 110 lbs range. Some of the newer speed bows in 80# will get you over the 110 Lb kinetic enegery mark if your draw length is 29" plus.

I also have an Elite Answer that I may play around with 90# limbs on to see what it can do at that poundage and the speed modules at 29.5". At 80# as it is now I get about 93 lbs of Kinetic energy with smooth modules. The speed modudles add 10 fps or so.

I tuned another guys 70# Bowtech Insanity that was getting about 98 lbs of Kinetic energy at 29.5" draw. Bump that bow up to 80# or so and you would have a bow over 110 lbs of Kinetic energy.

If you can get any of these newer speed bows to 90# you would possibly get into the 120 lbs of Kinetic Energy range as long as your draw length is reasonably long.

From: boothill
27-Feb-14
If someone smarter than me wants to search Youtube and post the link there is a short video of Burnworth on his elephant hunt. I remember watching the whole show but guide showed it aired January of last year. The video shows a clip next to a full size mount and the PH showing where to shoot. Also shows view of chrono at 202fps and 119ftlbs of KE.

From: Bou'bound
27-Feb-14

Bou'bound's Link
I am not smarter than you, but the video is attached.

From: Medicinemann
27-Feb-14
Boot hill,

Do you remember the arrow weight?

27-Feb-14
If you do the math backwards, its 1313 grains to get those numbers

From: boothill
27-Feb-14
Thanks for the help Bou. I was thinking it was around 1,200 grains but seems IND did the math. The video did show the big Ashby head though.

From: TD
27-Feb-14
oh my....

creep a bit on a 90 lb insanity and it would look like a Wile E Coyote cartoon..... the bow and arrow hanging in the air and a flattened Coyote face planted in the ground...

then the anvil falls.....

27-Feb-14

Ricardo Longoria's embedded Photo
Ricardo Longoria's embedded Photo
if you look closely at the picture, you will notice a stick that one of the trackers placed in the entrance hole. this bull was dead in 90 seconds. after that hit, he basically just took a couple of steps forward, then fell back on his haunches, got up, swayed side to side a couple of times, then flopped over on his side, dead. fell just as he is in the picture. ele was slightly quartering away when I shot. arrow dead-centered a rib on the near side, but still managed to make it through the entire body cavity, lodging in a rib on the opposite side. went straight through the heart.

27-Feb-14

Ricardo Longoria's embedded Photo
Ricardo Longoria's embedded Photo

From: Ken Moody
27-Feb-14

Ken Moody's embedded Photo
Ken Moody's embedded Photo
Elephant broadside.

From: Ken Moody
27-Feb-14

Ken Moody's embedded Photo
Ken Moody's embedded Photo
Elephant broadside with heart depicted. As you can see, relative to the size of the animal, the heart is in proportion but not THAT big of a target. In this position as shown the front portion of the heart would be covered by the front leg making a bowshot iffy. Slightly quartering with the front leg forward is the perfect angle but who gets perfect angles in the bush :)

From: W.P. Archer
27-Feb-14
I'm not sure if ill ever get to hunt Elephant in my life... But I do know if I do ill re read all this thread! Some very helpful info posted.

From: Medicinemann
27-Feb-14
Ricardo,

Your arrow weight was under 900 grns and you drew about 93#....right?

27-Feb-14
arrow weight right at 800 grains and drawing 90#.

From: Bowboy
27-Feb-14

Bowboy's embedded Photo
Bowboy's embedded Photo

Bowboy's Link
Jake,

You'll be fine! Remember the young lady Teressa Groenwald-Hagerman that killed an elephant in 2009. She was shooting 85lb PSE X-Force, but when she got to camp she lowered it to 83lbs. Her was at shot 12yds.

From: Lucas
27-Feb-14
Ricardo, that heart picture is one of the most impressive images I've seen on this site! Thanks.

From: Medicinemann
27-Feb-14
Ricardo,

What I find all the more impressive is that you centered a rib on the entry side, from a considerably further distance than what others have been posting......especially since many have focused on heavy arrows with some believing that no arrow can penetrate a perfectly centered rib.....

I am just trying to determine how there can be such diametrically opposed points of view....having received comments from successful archers at both ends of the spectrum almost leaves me with cognitive dissonance.

I just love the preparation aspect of these hunts.....

I was preparing to really crank up my poundage.....but if I do, there is no way that my arrow spine will be adequate unless I use a double-walled arrow. The FMJ's max out at 94# for my arrow length. Just out of curiosity, what was your calculated KE? You were using the Silver Flames broadheads, right? what do they weigh....220 grns?

From: JCHB
28-Feb-14
Medicineman, are you taking account of the added stiffness created by extra long inserts and weights epoxied inside the shaft? This has got to affect spine and push it above the normal rating for the shaft. Mine had zero flex over the front third. JCHB

From: Bou'bound
28-Feb-14
Do you guys know statistically what percentage of guys that hunt these with a bow end up taking one and doing so without guns involved. Ken may have a sense of that.

28-Feb-14

Ricardo Longoria's embedded Photo
Ricardo Longoria's embedded Photo
if you look at the vanes, you can see where one of them is sheared off and the others are quite damaged. this is from going through the rib on the near side. the other bull i shot on this same trip, i got a complete passthrough on. the arrow flew out the other side and we were unable to find it in the grass.

besides two "clean" bowkills, i've had some that didn't work out as planned. these hunts have been over a span of ten years - equipment has improved considerably over those years as has the collective knowledge and experience we have about bowhunting elephant.

elephant hunting with a bow is no longer the "stunt" it was some years ago. bowhunters are successfully killing elephant with a bow - clean - on a regular basis. there are several ph's that have guided many elephant bowhunts that really know what they are doing.

i don't worry about kinetic energy, FOC, etc.. some years ago, i got a pair of the heaviest bows hoyt made and sent them to Seth at BowXperts.com along with the FMJ Dangerous Game shafts and an assortment of broadheads. seth has tuned my bows, built my arrows, etc. for the past 6 or 7 years. he takes care of the technical side - i just sight them in and go hunting. I knew which bow i was going to shoot and which shaft i was going to shoot (including the Kauffman inserts). Seth tweaked the arrow length and tried different broadheads/vanes until he had everything shooting perfectly. in the end, it took 200 grain broadheads and larger vanes to get things just right. these arrows fly like darts and paper tune perfectly at multiple distances. I have fixed pins out to 60 yards and can dial out to 100 yards - and I do practice that far with this setup. i would have no qualms about shooting a second arrow to 100, if it were needed. i've used this same setup for cape buffalo, water buffalo, banteng and elephant. i'll use it again this year for nile buffalo and forest elephant.

jake, if you'll think back to that caribou hunt we did together some years ago, the bow/arrow/broadhead combination i used on that hunt is EXACTLY THE SAME ONE i used on the two elephants last year.

the equipment is not as critical as most people think. get a bow 80#+ (preferably 90#+) with a good arrow/broadhead combination that is 750 grains+. two-blade broadheads are mandatory and a good insert outsert combination is a great idea. tune it perfectly and shoot it right. besides that, you just need to hit them in the right spot. i'd focus as much on the mental preparation as anything else. too many guys spend countless hours fiddling with equipment trying to get everything just right only to shoot an animal in the neck or leg because they couldn't keep their cool once within range of dangerous game.

From: Box
28-Feb-14
You guys lead some really cool lives. Congrats on your accomplishments that make it possible for you to do these hunts. And thanks for taking the rest of us along on your adventures.

28-Feb-14
This thread just keeps getting better and thanks to Mr Ricardo it seems to be getting more real to what I would think about killing an elephant. It's just hard for me to see shooting completely through elk with a 47 pound longbow and not being able to do some serious damage to an elephant shooting a 90 pound high energy bow with more than twice the ke. I would love to see a complete pass through on video. I also wonder of elephants ribs are easier to split one way and not so much another. That could be the reason for the discrepancy in imformation.

From: Rick M
28-Feb-14

Rick M's Link
Jake, have you seen this one? Looks like pretty good shot placement and penetration.

Good luck on the hunt.

Rick M

From: Rick M
28-Feb-14
Well that link did not work. Check your email.

From: Box
28-Feb-14
As he gets closer, it will dawn on you that there is simply no place you can go to avoid his six tons of murder. He can easily outrun the fastest sprinter with his deceptive shuffle, and if you’re thinking about climbing a tree, don’t bother. He’ll either knock you out of it personally or toot up a couple of chums to share in the festivities. If 12,000 pounds of screaming, screeching, infuriated elephant bearing down on you has somehow rattled your nerves to the point that you miss that six-by-four-inch spot on his forehead, or your bullet fails to penetrate the two-and-one-half feet of tough, spongy, honeycombed bone that protects his brain, then you may as well forget it. The most talented mortuary cosmetician in the world couldn’t rewire you so your own mother would know if you were face up or down.

— Peter Hathaway Capstick on elephant hunting.

From: TD
28-Feb-14
Ouch.

WRT to the arrow penetrating a rib or being stopped by one, I have two thoughts.

One of course being mentioned earlier, where it hit the rib and at what angle.

Secondly with a two blade head, whether the blades at impact were oriented across the rib or in line with it. Taking the 2x4 analogy a step, if you hit across the "grain" or with the "grain" might make a good deal of difference?

From: Medicinemann
28-Feb-14
TD,

TBM kinda mentioned the same thing earlier....I am no MD, so I don't know of rib bones actually possess a "grain" or plane of weakness.

I also just found out that the arrows that I have been waiting for, for two months, still haven't even been shipped. If anyone knows of an archery shop that currently has some 32" FMJ Dangerous Game arrows at weigh 17.7 gpi, please contact me asap.....

From: Stekewood
28-Feb-14
Sent you a PM Jake. If you just need the bare shafts they will have them to you next week.

From: Greg Kush
01-Mar-14
These two videos seem to show the arrow placement pretty well:

From: Greg Kush
01-Mar-14
The arrow hits a bit higher in this clip:

From: JCHB
01-Mar-14

JCHB's embedded Photo
JCHB's embedded Photo
TBM and TD, I agree with the theory that the way the broadhead strikes the rib can have a material effect on penetration. I have both the ribs from my elephant. I think I must photograph them this weekend and put the photos on this thread. The first rib seemed to split easily, even after the arrow went right through the beast to reach it. The second had a huge crack in it as if the broadhead hit it at an angle slightly across the grain and then aligned itself with the grain of the rib as it went through. Just think of splitting a log with an axe. Cross grain you have no chance but parallel with the grain it parts easily.

Ricardo, you have had remarkable success with your elephants but I'm not convinced that a lighter arrow (800gr) is the way forward. I used 800gr arrows out of an 80lbs tribute to take two giraffes. On one I split a rib and penetrated across the chest but I don't know if it would have had the same performance on the heavier elephant. Again it may come down to the angle the rib is hit (cross grain vs with the grain). One thing there is no doubt about is the perfect heart shot you achieved! I agree that mental preparation is a huge part of the hunt. The adrenaline rush at the moment of truth is epic. I drew back 93 pounds like it was 20! Didn't even feel it!

While we are on the topic of other animals shot with elephant gear, I hope you like the photo of my Zambezi valley bush pig, shot walk and stalk while on the elephant's trail. JCHB

From: Medicinemann
01-Mar-14
I am going to try to locate some of those Kaufman inserts as well.....

01-Mar-14
Interesting TTT

From: drycreek
01-Mar-14
Ya'll almost had me wanting to go.....right up until Capstick's colorful description of my body should I fail ! I'm a slow runner.

From: Medicinemann
05-Mar-14
Since the FMJ DG arrows max out at 94# for my arrow length, I have a couple additional ideas that I would like to check out....and I am hoping that Richie Bland or Tom Miranda (as well as others), can chime in.

If I were to use the NuFletch on my arrows, I could shorten my arrows by another 2.5 - 3.0 inches. That would improve spine, and allow for higher draw weight. I don't want to overcomplicate my arrow or my set-up, but I want to be thorough.

Would the NuFletch be a valid alternative for my elephant arrows?

From: Purdue
05-Mar-14
NuFletch do not shorten the overall length of the arrow, just the original arrow shaft. If it did, you would be correct. Adding stiffness to either end of the arrow will only change the static and dynamic spine a minuscule amount.

Imagine a 20' board supported between two saw horses 18' apart with a substantial weight sitting at middle of the board causing it to deflect.

If you doubled or tripled the thickness of the board for 3' or 4' at each end, would the deflection of the board be less? No. If you doubled or tripled the thickness of the board at its center, where it had bent the most, would its deflection be less? Yes. Adding material where it sees little stress does little good.

I doubt if adding weight to the rear of the arrow causes it to recover quicker. It would shorten the lever arm of the fletching thus weakening its effect and delaying stabilization. The added weight would also cause more deflection of the arrow upon hitting the target.

05-Mar-14
The quicker and easier an arrow can penetrate the first 10 inches, the more likely the arrow will maintain a straighter path through the animal and get full penetration. Once the arrow is halfway in, at that point the arrow is supported by what it is penetrating and spine is of little importance at that point. Longer arrows are less affected by slight redirections from hitting ribs etc.

From: Ironbow
05-Mar-14
Less weight on the rear of the arrow will improve the spine. Might want to go with feathers Jake. Would also help with penetration, they lay down nicely.

Also, a point made earlier, adding a shaft inside the arrow does change the spine. Best to test it with a spine tester. Salt or weed whacker line inside the shaft doesn't change the spine, but an arrow shaft sleeved in another one does.

Less weight up front also stiffens the spine. Shooting a 200 grain broadhead will help over a 300 grain if you want a stiffer spine.

From: Medicinemann
06-Mar-14
I just got off of the phone with Pat. We still don't have everything perfected yet. However, I was really pleased that Pat used completely different sources for his set-up than I used for mine....and we still had rather similar set-ups with one major difference.

Pat will be shooting an 80 pound Mathews MR5, with IBO arrow speeds around 360 fps (much lighter arrow of course). I am probably going to be shooting my Mathews Custom Safari. I am going to crank up my poundage as high as possible. The plan is to start shooting my arrows through a Hooter Shooter. I will then decrease the bow poundage (if necessary) until that bow is throwing DARTS. I am much more focused on perfect arrow flight than anything else right now.

Mathews told Pat that because of the improvements in technology over the last 13 years, his MR5 will generate more KE than my bow, even though my poundage will be much higher. I just can't bring myself to spend all of that money for what will probably be a once in a lifetime bowhunt for me.

That is our major difference.

I will be using a different arrow brand than Pat. He is using plastic weight tubes, I am not. However, my arrow weight is going to be 820-840 grains. So is Pat's. Broadheads will also differ, but they are both obviously going to be two blades. We will both be using 4"-5" feathers, not vanes. I am not footing my arrows, but I am using a stainless steel outsert. I think that Pat is using a lighted nock.....and I am considering it. Pat's sources recommend a radical helical....mine didn't have a strong opinion regarding that.

The majority of(but not all) arrow manufacturers suggest against using really heavy broadheads. They believe that the FOCs are too extreme to get PERFECT arrow flight. Remember, everyone is going to have a different opinion about this....but since my focus is on perfect arrow flight, I am leaning towards a 180 grain or 210 grain SilverFlame. Ultimately, everything boils down to the results that we get from the Hooter Shooter. Whatever flys the best, is what I am using...

Everything is still up in the air right now....but things are starting to take shape.

From: Bou'bound
06-Mar-14
somewhere on the other side of the world there are two elephants wandering around, feeding, and knocking tree over, and leaving huge crap piles on the ground.

They will be dead in less than three months.

They just don't know it yet.

From: Medicinemann
06-Mar-14
Bou,

I sure hope that you are right. Obviously, it is all about being safe....but I sure hope that Pat and I are able to get some video for everyone back home to watch....these types of adventures are few and far between.

From: Rock
06-Mar-14
Pat & Jake, If you decide to go with a radical Helical Fletch and want to fletch your own arrows I have a modified (so I can get max helical to my fletching) Jo-Jan multi fletcher that I am willing to loan to either or both of you. I only have LW clamps, so let me know if you want to use it and I can put it in the mail.

From: Mad Trapper
06-Mar-14
Come on TIGHTWAD.... Dig deep and buy a new bow. I think you can afford it.

From: tthomas
06-Mar-14
Why buy a new bow, surely a shot out 10 year old bow will suffice :)

From: Medicinemann
06-Mar-14
If that is what it takes, I will.....but I believe those vintage bows can get the job done....at least until the hooter shooter says otherwise.

From: Bou'bound
06-Mar-14
In the end it will not be new vs. old bow that makes the difference between dead vs. live bull.

06-Mar-14
All this preparation and 300 post to hit a 60 pound heart at 10 yards??? In a couple of weeks I will be hitting a 2 oz. heart at the same distance???? I guess that's the difference in a pressure shot and a pressure situation.

From: Medicinemann
06-Mar-14
If there are any veterinarians out there that would be willing to share their opinion, I have a question....do elephant ribs have a "grain" to them? Because they are long and thin, many of us think that they will split vertically....but they are CaCO3. I am not certain that bone actually has a grain.....

From: Medicinemann
06-Mar-14
TBM,

Last time I checked, turkey ribs aren't as difficult to get through as elephant ribs. No one is worried about hitting the heart....the focus is getting the through the rib and compromising one of the four heart chambers.

...and I only saw 177 posts to this thread...not 300. Since when does post count mean anything? I thought that the purpose of these threads is to share, and to learn. If that bothers you, just stay on the turkey threads, where you have some degree of expertise.

I have killed hundreds of turkeys...like you. With bow, and with gun....never once have I worried about being trampled by one. There will be at least 4-6 people close enough to Tembo where someone could get trampled. I'll be damned if I will leave any stone unturned in the research phase of this hunt.

From: Bou'bound
06-Mar-14
Hey Jake even if it does what difference does it make. You can't plan to hit the grain anyway. Or are we now timing arrow revolutions to impact on a vertical plane vs. horizonatal at the time the head conacts the ribs! LOL

Just hit the damn thing with your best shot and pray man! My money is on you grain or grainless.

From: Medicinemann
06-Mar-14
Bou'bound,

I got a PM from someone telling me that the grain of the rib was a factor. With all of the "experts" on here, I want verification. I didn't know that bone has a "grain". However, as I just inserted in a previous post, if we go with a straight vane, and the arrow isn't rotating, aligning the broadhead vertically would reduce the chance of deflecting off of a rib. If the vertical broadhead aligns with any such rib grain, it would probably increase the chance of splitting the rib more easily.....cool stuff, eh?

You are the one that was asking earlier if successfully killing an elephant was strictly a function of missing the rib or not. If it is....then this is a gun shoot under the guise of a bowhunt. I don't believe that it is. If I make a perfect shot, but my set-up is not flying perfectly, and penetration is less than desired....hitting the damn thing with my best shot wasn't good enough.

Hopefully, Pat and I have success with set-ups that might be considered less than conventional by those favoring heavier arrow set-ups....It is my hope that a few people will appreciate a reasonably comprehensive analysis of this adventure.....and some of the trade-offs that had to be considered.

You guys know better than most my tendency to hyper-analyze. I can't apologize for what I am, so I won't.

From: Bou'bound
06-Mar-14
So if there is not grain is the hunt off?

You're going to do this with the heaviest bow, best flying arrows, toughest heads, perfect dart-like flight, etc. At the point when the arrow is in the air the die is cast. you'll penetrate or not. you will hit a rib or not. grain or not. it may not matter if you hit a rib you'll still get through possibly.

from there it comes down to which way the beast runs and what your PH decides to do with the rifle he is holding.

my money is still on you jake.

my only point is there is clearly a matter of fate here that you can't plan for or control with an animal that big. two identically looking shots could result in two very different outcomes and there is nothing you can do or could have done to alter what happens then.

I believe there are animals posted above (based on prior threads) that were finished off with guns and it was not due to the bowshot not being OK in the first place.

From: Chip T.
06-Mar-14
I am thinking Jake that you are shooting as much if not more lbs. than most guys who have hunted elephants, you are shooting better arrows than those of 10-20 years ago and broadhead a lot better than years ago. Put all the positive pieces of the puzzle together and no doubt you will be going with the optimun ammo to get the job done.

06-Mar-14
It don't bother me...I like the preparation and passion. The stakes are a little higher here...I would rather see a 3' putt for the green jacket than a 30 footer for a 6 pack. This thing is building momentum...keep it going. I hope Pat chimes in more later on. Keep it up.

From: tthomas
06-Mar-14
A new bow, without a peep and clipped on to the string could be 10 fps faster. With Jake's arrow weight it would be over 10 foot pounds of energy. That may be the difference, grain or no grain.

Chuck Adams said that hunting elephants was just a stunt. I think that was his words. Said you hit the ribs and you were beat. If you got lucky and went between them, you could get your elephant. Trouble is you can't see the outline of the ribs to shoot through.

All the work Jake has done, the studying etc, another 10 fps could make the difference. As Bou said, once the arrow is in the air.....its just a matter of fate.

From: Medicinemann
06-Mar-14
Remember, the point that I am trying to make is that there are MANY different opinions out there. One of them suggested (via PM), that I shouldn't have the broadhead rotating, because it will adversely affect the ability of the arrow to split the grain of the rib. I don't even know if ribs have a grain....I've eaten ribs and broke them in half, and I don't remember ever seeing a grain. Others say that high rpms will stabilize the arrow better...like a spiral football. They can't both be right....which one would YOU defer to? fun stuff.....

I believe that elephant can successfully be taken with a properly set-up bow and arrow. A lot has changed since Chuck Adam's comments. I am sure that his opinion would differ to some extent, now. I won't know how my set-up fares until I actually get to pull the string back. Bou mentioned that we are using the heaviest bow, the best arrow, the strongest , etc.....so the die is cast. I don't believe that....because I am not even sure what arrow I am using yet....I have about five possible combinations to be tested....and I have a hunch about which one will give us the best results....but that is all.

There are so many variables, that no one can address them all....and for every variable, there will be numerous opinions....but what I can do, is document my variables, so future bowhunters considering this hunt, can incorporate them into their preparations.

I believe that I have the ability to heavily influence the outcome. My preparations affect my fate.

06-Mar-14
Do the guy who got a passthrough on an elephant while hitting a rib is labled a lier? I would like to know because I like facts and truth...speaking of which...my turkey head is likely to get less penetration...oops...debate free thread...I take pics to post on another thread.

From: Medicinemann
06-Mar-14
TBM,

Did you mean "So"? Did you mean "liar"?

I believe that you are mistaken. Steve Kobrine had a pass through, but his arrow missed ribs on both sides. Ricardo Longoria centered a rib, and penetrated through to the far side. It was not a pass through. His second elephant had a complete pass through, but he shot it twice.

Here's the problem.....those are two examples....I have five or six examples of poor penetration for every one that has excellent penetration. I don't want to be one of those "five or six"!! LOL

From: Az_tines
06-Mar-14

Az_tines's Link
Have you looked into grizzly stiks? They look to have the specifications you need. I do not have any experience in dangerous game, but i thought those could possibly fit your needs.

From: TD
06-Mar-14
Good call with the hooter shooter. A perfectly straight arrow at impact is a huge thing, some argue it is THE most important aspect WRT penetration... could very well be those 1000-1200 grain rods others have used did not live up to their potential because the tune may have been off a good deal. No way to know not having been around them and known the gear.

It's not about the first inch.... it's all about the last..... heard that, um.... somewhere....

I don't think Pat's bow is gonna be very close to 360 with 800+ grains strapped on the launching pad.... much less a 30in draw.... =

I've never shot an arrow near that heavy.... I bet it's an entirely different sensation, a long push and a kind of slow motion event in comparison to standard weight arrows.

From: grazak
06-Mar-14
WOW, this will be a exciting hunt, Just watched a rifle hunting episode on the outdoor channel of several hunts for Elephant, very intense when close...Good Luck to both of you! I love the time, practice, effort, thought, research your doing for this hunt, really helps mentally get in-tune for a hunt of this Magnitude...! Good Luck..!

From: Ironbow
06-Mar-14
Jake,

You will need some rotation with the size of broadhead you will shoot. I wouldn't worry about the spinning and if you hit a rib on the grain. Just set up for perfect arrow flight and I think it will get the job done.

Chuck was shooting a 100# round wheel compound, not known for it's speed (even in it's day) and 2317 shafts that were sleeved. That arrow is really big, bigger than the broadhead ferrule, and I think that is what slowed the penetration on his elephant.

I have never shot an ele, but noticed in my big bow/big arrow days that I saw reduced penetration with 2317 & 2419 shafts. 2219's always seemed to penetrate better. Smaller diameter does make a difference.

I think you are on to the right arrow/broadhead weight and combination. Go get 'em.

From: Bou'bound
09-Mar-14
Any more insight on the presence, or lack thereof, of rib grain in elephants?

09-Mar-14
I've never heard of this concept - "rib grain". Regarding ribs, one thing that does stand out and a topic of much discussion over the years was their shape - they have an oval shape. The reasoning is/was that if you hit a rib anywhere but dead center, the broadhead/arrow would tend to slide around it, if it had a rounded point. I used rounded points on my earlier hunts. On my most recent, and most successful hunt, I didn't.

From: Medicinemann
09-Mar-14
Bou,

If you want to get a rough feel for what elephant ribs may look like, Purdue PM'd me the following.....

http://www.fossil-treasures-of-florida.com/prehistoric-elephants-bone-am019.html

Grazak,

I couldn't agree more. The "process" of preparing for any hunt really builds the anticipation for me. I know that some people interpret my process as over thinking things, but it works for me....and sometimes I get some really cool, but contradictory data. That is particularly enjoyable, because I enjoy solving "what if" scenarios.

For example, some people are suggesting that I use straight feathers on my arrow. They suggest that the straight arrows will provide drag which will stabilize the arrow, without making it spin. By doing so, you could then orient the broadhead vertically. If the arrow isn't rotating, the broadhead would then hit the rib vertically, helping to split it (implying that there is a "grain"). Additionally, by keeping the broadhead vertical, you reduce the chances that the arrow can be deflected by glancing off of a rib...which would greatly reduce penetration.

Others state the obvious. Rotating an arrow provides more stability, like a tight spiral on a football. Both viewpoints have merit....but then you have to consider the specifics of this hunt.

If the first arrow doesn't get the job done, there is a high probability that you are going to hear a "boom". However, if you don't, and your tracking job finds that your elephant is still standing...there is no way that you aren't getting charged when the second arrow hits him. It is also probable that you aren't going to get as close the second time, before the animal initiates a charge. If shooting from a longer distance. you definitely want perfect arrow flight and arrow stability....so it has to be spinning, in my opinion.

While I toyed with the idea of having my first arrow straight fletched, and the other arrows with a helical....I always return to the KISS principal. If you are chasing a six ton pachyderm and you are in bow range, if things go awry, the possibility exists that the wrong arrow could be grabbed. I will probably rely on my arrow set-up to get the required penetration....and not worry about broadhead orientation on impact. I also agree with one of Ricardo's last observations....if I hit a rib, I WANT a point on my arrow. I would rather take my chances that the point of the broadhead digs into a rib, and my arrow continues on a straight path with a lot of energy behind it...rather than have a blunted head, and "slides" off of the rib on a redirected course....because I personally believe that the rib then absorbed a lot of the arrow's energy, and penetration will be greatly reduced.

I must admit that I am seriously considering an illumnated nock. I have never used one...but it would be helpful to know exactly where I hit that animal at the moment of impact. I wonder how much they weigh, and it's effect on FOC....I wouldn't expect it to be that much of a change.

09-Mar-14
Sorry for sounding like The Dude from the Big LeBowski, but you're three months out. The time is here to make this set up your friend. You've analyzed. Bou is right. The arrow will fly and slip between ribs or not, penetrate or maybe still penetrate.

You are admirably working to control difficult variables. Don't forget the most important territory between your ears. Make your decision and quiet the noise in your head.

From: Medicinemann
09-Mar-14
Orion,

Believe me, I am ready to pin down my gear ....but the hooter shooter will do that for me.....I am not making the decision....the gear that provides the best arrow flight is. I just can't get it on the hooter shooter any quicker.

09-Mar-14
Jake - I've never hunted dangerous game, so hunts like this intrigue me. Thus, my opinion is of limited value at best.

However, we are all children of our life's experiences. It seems as though the best advice that I've ever received has been for simple, obvious things that are being overlooked or overwhelmed by the peripheral.

Enjoy the anticipation of the hunt. Entertain yourself with the permutations of set ups. I think everyone following the thread is. "What if?" is good fun.

But don't let perfect become the enemy of excellent, to paraphrase. And don't reject the validity of the words just because they were spoken by the comedian Bill Murray, "Be the ball."

Good hunting, brother.

From: Nick Muche
09-Mar-14
Jake,

Is the hooter shooter you are going to use an exact replica of....you? Just because something is shot perfect from the hooter doesn't mean it'll do the same for you. Human vs Machine. Perfect form vs Our form.

Just a thought is all. I'd be doing the testing myself. With the bow in my own hands, not in a machines.

Good luck. Let us know the results!

From: Medicinemann
09-Mar-14
Orion,

Believe me, I am ready to pin down my gear ....but the hooter shooter will do that for me.....I am not making the decision....the gear that provides the best arrow flight is. I just can't get it on the hooter shooter any quicker. My decisions have been made....to an extent. I know what parameters I place the most importance on...my final choices reflect those decisions. For me personally, small arrow diameter with sufficient spine are probably my most important variables.

Nick,

Maybe this isn't true for everyone, but from own personal experience, if a friend has a bow that is shooting well, I can pick it up and shoot it well. If I can't...it isn't the bow....it's me. Please understand, I am not suffering from "paralysis by analysis". There are some logistics to be considered here, and I didn't want to bore everyone with the mundane. That is why some things haven't progressed as quickly as I would like. The inserts and outserts are actually being made this week.

I actually received a few inserts and outserts, and have made some prototypes with different feathers, broadheads, etc. At the same time, once the inserts/outserts are made, then I can actually fire each arrow that is going on the trip, through the hooter shooter. I will actually identify and number my arrows based on how they fly. I wanted to wait until I had the shafts, and the inserts/outserts, before shooting everything....it just seemed more efficient to me. I'll still have a good 50-60 days to shoot the actual gear before I step on the plane.

I appreciate the thoughts, concerns, and opinions, nonetheless....

09-Mar-14
Jake, or anybody for that matter. If you have any straight fletched arrows made up with two blade broadheads oriented vertically, could you go shoot 5 of them, or just 5 shots with 1 arrow and tell me if they all hit the target vertically or are they random. Easy enough to prove in 5 minutes but I don't have any straight fletched arrows handy. My Dad used to swear we had to orient all the broadheads the same but I never thought it mattered because I thought they were going to rotate some anyway. Would be an interesting experiment. Also, since you are going with Pat, I'm sure there will be a ton of documented testing on the dead critter. But, if nothing else, when the locals have stripped the beast take a machete from one of the trackers and smack a rib right down the middle lengthwise and then smack the one next to it across and show us the difference. Good luck, can't wait to see the hunt and all the forensics. Oh, and tell Pat to just wait until the charging elephant raises it's trunk to trumpet before he releases the frontal shot. It will if he waits long enough, ha ha.

09-Mar-14
I was thinking the same as Nick...the fact is some bows need some imputed torque to shoot a perfect arrow. It will be interesting to see how man compares to machine.

From: Bou'bound
09-Mar-14
arrows rotate.............. some........... regardless of fletch orientation. helical imparts more, but any will still turn over distance traveled. I don't believe it is possible to plan for the angle at which a two blade head will enter a target over any distance, be it known or unknown, short or far.

From: Ace
09-Mar-14
Orion, "Be the ball" was Chevy Chase as Ty Webb to Danny Noonan.

:-)

10-Mar-14
Bou, that's exactly what I was thinking. Hence the whole straight fletch, align broadheads vertically seamed like a wasted effort. Still like to see the results. Always nice to prove to your father or your wife that you are right. (again)

From: Mad Trapper
10-Mar-14
Rumor has it that the "walk-in" oven is being delivered to Jamestown this week...

From: Bou'bound
10-Mar-14
was that the model with the sauna option or without?

From: leo17
10-Mar-14
Im just curious as to what the total cost of a hunt like this runs.

Have you considered having both you and Pat fire at the same elephant simultaneously? 2 arrows are better than one.

From: Medicinemann
10-Mar-14
Leo,

When the hunt is over, we'll have a better idea of the total cost.

From: Mad Trapper
10-Mar-14
Make sure that you include the cost of the oven. :-)

From: Medicinemann
10-Mar-14
No oven required for training, Tom. I have been told to expect temperatures as low as 30's at night, and 70's or 80's during the day. We will be over there during their Fall season....

From: Bigpizzaman
10-Mar-14
Come on down South to Train Jake/Pat it's starting to be "Jungle-Hot" here with plenty of Bugs!!! I could throw you in a Pizza Oven too!!

From: Medicinemann
10-Mar-14
Forget the oven....I'd rather have that pizza you've been promising me!!

From: CurveBow
10-Mar-14
Jake, don't worry about the lighted nock. The few extra grains that they weigh will do little/nothing to your arrow dynamics and flight. The benefits that they provide are awesome! You'll not want to hunt without them again...

I especially enjoy shooting them at dusk...

>>>>----good luck to you & Pat---->>>

From: Chip T.
10-Mar-14
Will you guys please get your gear together. I don't want to turn on the CBS news the day of your departure and find out that you pulled out your Hooter Shooter and Astroglide and started to fine tune your setup in the aisle. Can't wait for this hunt to transpire. Should be a classic.

From: Bou'bound
10-Mar-14
How far would you be willing to shoot at one of these monsters? (first arrow)

From: Medicinemann
10-Mar-14
It's a short drive.....but it's working!!!!

From: bb
10-Mar-14
A theoretical setup..... That in itself ought to drive Jake crazy. The only thing I can relate to more than that is if you were to start packing the morning you are leaving.

From: Beendare
10-Mar-14
Some random thoughts;

Lighted noks; Love the nokturnals but have had a couple break. I would call the manufacturer and ask if there will be an issue with overstressing these?

Re the arrow spin; Putting spin on the arrow is essential IMO. You picture the arrow spinning through bone- I think "spin" is minimal in that situation and have seen a few BH's buried in bone to prove it. At the point that arrow impacts bone- its more of a wedge effect after the head bites.

The spin stabilizes the arrow...and a stabilized arrow will have significantly better penetration over one with a slight wobble. Its a no brainer for me to have some helical on there.

From: Txnrog
11-Mar-14
Jake, Best of luck on the hunt. Hope you are settled into your arrow setup by now. I am going on an australian buffalo hunt in June (Same guy Pat went with), and while certainly not in the same league - doing much tweaking with my arrow setup. I am using a longbow, so have to focus much more on arrow tuning since I can't really tune the bow.

If you are willing to foot the arrow, you can add some stiffness to the spine. You'll loose some because of the addtl weight, but you do end up shortening the working spine - it takes a little bit of monkeying, but IMO gives a much stouter business end of the arrow.

Would be cautious of adding weight to the back in any meaningful way as it will stress the arrow more on a hard impact.

I ended up going with a goldtip kenetic .200's, custom steel half-in-half-out inserts and 7in of easton 2013 as footing with a 250gr head - total weight now @ 800, trying to work it up to 850-900 but will have to play with the footing again. I tried the Easton FMJ dangerous game .250 arrows, and couldn't get them stiff enough (out of a 70lb longbow!)

ABS has some setups that might be worth trying. They were heaver than I wanted (balance between weight and cast of the arrow/shootability), but could get you in the 1200 range pretty easily with inserts and weights that act as an internal footing.

Anyway, awesome adventure - will be following along.

From: Bou'bound
12-Mar-14
Jake and Pat how close are you thinking you need to be to take the right shot.

From: Ken Moody
12-Mar-14
They won't have a choice. Given the terrain we are hunting in the shots will be 12-15 yards, no more than 20. We will be right on top of them.

From: Bou'bound
12-Mar-14
Man that is intense........Ken what woud you say is the success rate on elephant with bow and no firearm intervention.........just a rough average. If a 100 guys try this how many elephants are taken solely with archery gear.

From: Box
12-Mar-14
I'll guess for fun and without any knowledge of elephant hunting. 25% are taken solely with archery equipment without a gun shot fired. Bet it has a lot to do with who is your professional hunter. If you make a good shot and no one is in danger, then your PH should let the arrow do it's work. But maybe some will immediately follow up with a gun shot.

Interesting question and look forward to the experienced based answer from Ken who I'm guessing is the type of PH who will give the archer a chance to get the kill with their bow. Of course this is all based on my hunting with Ken for the "dangerous" plains game type species. Never know when a wounded duiker will attack. :)

From: Medicinemann
12-Mar-14
I received this today, from Ken Moody.....

At this time we cannot make contact with our govt. official in Mozambique. The province in which we will be hunting has been devastated by massive flooding and emergency evacuations are occurring as I type this. It will take a bit of time to get them all back on line. I am trying to secure a permit on call, so to speak for you regarding hippo. If I can get this done then we will have an extra permit in camp should the opportunity for you to kill one present itself. I cannot make any promises at this stage but in a week or so we should be able to nail down an answer. If this can be done then you would simply pre-pay for the permit and trophy fee and should you not kill a hippo I will refund both the permit and trophy fee to you. Let me see if I can make this happen and I will get back to you as soon as the info becomes available. I really do not think it would be prudent to pay for a non-refundable permit up front given the fact that this is a bowhunt and elephant is the priority.

Again, I highly recommend you secure travel insurance. The floods will subside and we should be good to go in May but it is not beyond the scope for additional flooding to occur in May and June and, if this happens, we will have to pospone the safari. Your deposit will obviously roll over but your airline expenses will not. Travel Insurance will cover all of it.

From: Bou'bound
12-Mar-14
There are two elephants over there praying for more rain.................................

From: TD
12-Mar-14
Cool! If it's wet and lush those elephants should be putting on some good ivory..... =D

From: Medicinemann
12-Mar-14
I just subscribed to Global Rescue for 30 days.....and used 05/26/2014 as my start date....the start date can be moved back provided I call BEFORE 5/26 to revise the commencement date.

Still checking into travel insurance.

I wonder if the flooding will make the flies and mosquitoes worse than usual? Or if it will be tougher to locate elephants, hippos, etc....?

TD,

Not that it matters, but the ivory is not importable.

12-Mar-14
Jake, You should ask Tom Miranda about Global.

From: Medicinemann
12-Mar-14
Too late....good or bad, I just subscribed.....

12-Mar-14
you could "unsubscribe" before a commencement date I would think. not that you would want to but I have heard some shaky stories that would make me think twice.

From: Bou'bound
12-Mar-14
does wet weather help ivory growth like it can antler growth

From: Bou'bound
12-Mar-14
does wet weather help ivory growth like it can antler growth

From: TD
12-Mar-14
Shucks, I was just jokin' but I'd imagine having lots of good food couldn't hurt....if they fatten up I'd guess good news and bad news. Bad news is ribs and bones harder to see.... good news is you could leave the astroglide at home....

You can have replica ivory made I believe? Be cool to frame a big ol picture with. Don't want to jinx anybody though, just daydreaming....

From: Mad Trapper
12-Mar-14
12-15 yards... You boys better take some Depends as well. Check to see if they offer them in camo. Realtree should work. :-)

From: Mad Trapper
12-Mar-14
If not Global, then who??

From: Beendare
12-Mar-14
Heck, that Global rescue isn't going to help you if one charges....need a dust pan for that

From: Bou'bound
13-Mar-14
how much time is going to be devoted to hippo?

From: Medicinemann
13-Mar-14
Bou',

Elephant is our primary target. We'll hunt elephant the entire time if that is what it takes. Hippos are a secondary animal. At least that is my understanding.

I have to chuckle....there are cartoons and whatnot portraying hippos as cute, innocent animals. Most research shows that they kill more people than the crocs, cape buffalo, and snakes do. They have a incredibly thick hide and can grow up to 6,000 pounds. Six foot mouth span, and I believe that they also have ivory in their mouth....still not importable. in Masai, hippopotamus means "river horse".

From: Bou'bound
13-Mar-14
are you and pat hunting together each day or just at the same time

From: Bowfreak
13-Mar-14
Just a few comments.

With respect to lighted nocks. I tried some lighted nocks this year and on the whole they performed flawlessly. The practice nocks I purchased with them did not. I cracked probably 5 or 6 of these nocks. It made me extremely cautious about using any nock other than Eastons, Bohnings or GTs (even though GT had a nock issue some time ago). Of course YMMV.

As far as Jake's application of the Hooter Shooter. To me this is the exact type of application for a Hooter Shooter. Tuning a bow with a Hooter Shooter is useless for obvious reasons BUT tuning arrows are not. Group tuning arrows by turning nocks and finding which type of arrow shoots best in a given setup is one of the most practical applications of the Hooter Shooter.

From: Ace
13-Mar-14
Since this thread is getting long, I predict that Jake will start another thread with "Hooter Shooter" in the title.

Some will click on it and be disappointed at first that it's not about Tiffany or one of the other Bow Hunting hunnies. Then they'll start reading and they will stay for the fascination with hunting something most of know we'll never go after.

This has been a great read so far.

At least you guys won't have to worry about them jumping the string.

From: Bou'bound
14-Mar-14
what woud you say is the success rate on elephant with bow and no firearm intervention.........just a rough average

From: Bigpizzaman
14-Mar-14
No Ivory in the "River Horse" just Enamel teeth.

From: Ken Moody
14-Mar-14

Ken Moody's Link
Ivory info FYI...

From: Bigpizzaman
14-Mar-14
Thanks Ken! Learn something new every day.

From: Bou'bound
14-Mar-14
are you and pat hunting together each day or just at the same time

From: boothill
14-Mar-14
I love seeing Dennis Razza step by step threads on his mounts as they are incredible. But would also like to see a step by step of a 100# bow being tuned and different arrow flight characteristics with these big broad heads. How about it Jake can that happen?

From: Medicinemann
15-Mar-14
Boothill,

I'll say that it is doubtful. That way, you won't get your hopes up.....but if I can underpromise and overdeliver, that will be a good thing. Most of my personal research to date has suggested that the really heavy broadheads just don't seem to fly as perfectly as I would like (for my choice of shafts)....so I am focusing on broadheads in the 180-210 grain range.

I am NOT saying that they may not be a good fit for some archers....I am just saying that my findings favor slightly lighter heads which won't affect my arrow spine as dramatically (because I prefer a small diameter, small diameter set-up).

For people that prefer a double walled arrow, the big heads may fly quite nicely.

BPM,

I find it kind of funny that no reference was made to elk ivories in Ken's reference info.....But I guess that they are referring to ivory in larger, carved pieces....like scrimshaw, etc.

Bou,

You have asked at least twice about the percentage of elephants killed without a follow-up gunshot. I have no idea what that percentage might be. The absence of an answer may indicate that it isn't something that is reported to authorities and therefore is not accurately tracked. I don't remember if such stats are tracked on polar bear or brown bear hunts either, but I don't think so. If such stats aren't tracked in the U.S., the chances of such stats being accurately tabulated in Africa is probably not too high....but that is just speculation on my part.

However, I would be willing to guess that the percentage of elephants killed by archers without a follow-up gun shot is slowly on the increase.....whatever that percentage is.....

I believe that we will be hunting together, taking turns on who the primary archer is.....from stalk to stalk. However, if a second PH comes into camp, Ken Moody mentioned that we might split up.

From: JCHB
15-Mar-14
Medicine man, Your gear choice has been an interesting topic. I was thinking about your "lighter setup" and recall trying to finish off a blue wildebeest with my normal plains game gear (80lbs/ 28in draw/556gr arrow inclu a 125gr rocket). The animal had fallen to the first arrow but was still kicking. I shot from about 15 meters away and hit the heavy shoulder bone. The arrow penetrated only about 4 inches and stuck out of the beast vibrating like a tuning fork. Now a blue Wildebeest is not an elephant but it just illustrated the lack of bone penetrating ability from a faster/lighter setup.

I just checked out the Alaskan Bowhunting web pages on elephant. Not that they are necessarily the gospel on the topic but it is hard to argue with the stats they put forward. They are totally in the "heavy is better" camp when it comes to arrows. They talk 1250gr. Both Adrian DeVilliers and Fritz Rabe (experienced big 5 archers) are firmly in the "heavy is better" camp. I cannot argue with the obvious success of Ricardo with lighter shafts but it would seem contrary to established thinking.

I have absolutely no commercial relationship with ABS but I think you owe it to yourself to get a couple of their arrows to test. They have the stiff spine and the weighting system you are looking for without re-inventing the wheel.

I second the comment by Boothill that a blow by blow test would make a fascinating read.

JCHB

15-Mar-14
It is interesting how some think super heavy is best and some do not. I lean towards thinking the broadhead is the most important factor and concave design like Shuttle T and Simmons have proven that concave is better than the convex designes. I Am shooting 90 grains heavier than last season for turkeys and can't wait to see if that leads to more penetration and more damage to the turkeys and heads that I shoot. Hopefully I will know something before the week is out.

From: Bou'bound
15-Mar-14
Thanks Jake. I was not looking for a stat on the question that would be auditable and verifiable that would have to be sworn to under oath, but thought that as an experienced PH Ken particularly would have some idea......even if the hunters had never inquired.

No need for precision as it is not possible, but a range would be interesting just to see how tough what you are trying to do is statistically. Some guys are really focused on details and I am into the statistical side of things. Just weird i know.

Example:

If 70% of bow hunts end in an elephant being taken and 80% of those end up with a pure archery kill that would equate to 56% of all bowhunts ending with an archery only kill.

I would think a PH could provide that based on his knowledge without too much difficulty, just as I am sure an inuit outfitter could provide for polar bear or an alaskan guide for brownies.........

From: Zbone
15-Mar-14
Interesting link on ivory, thanx Mr. Moody, and not to hijack this thread, but no mention of elk ivory...

From: Medicinemann
15-Mar-14
JCHB,

Was the Rocket broadhead that you shot into the Wildbeest a two bladed broadhead? If not, I would submit that penetration through bone will be severely decreased as you increase the cross-sectional surface area of the broadhead. I am also wondering about arrow shaft diameter....wondering if you arrow OD might have significantly more drag as the diameter increases.

Just as an experiment, I took my normal 525 grain NA arrows, an 830 grain arrow, and an 1130 grain (much larger diameter)arrow and shot them into a Rhinehart target. There wasn't a huge amount of difference in the penetration. Yeah, the 830 grain arrow did the best, but by less than an inch. Maybe it hit a "softer" spot in the target, maybe it didn't....but I am going to use a new piece of 9# Delta foam to make my final measurements.

From my way of thinking, the single most interesting comparison would be between an aerodynamically perfect, small diameter arrow (830 grain) and a "heavy" (1100-1200 grain) arrow that also flies perfectly through the air. Arrow diameter "drag" versus arrow mass....but getting perfect arrow flight from the heavier arrow will be more difficult to achieve because you are not shooting a single, homogeneous shaft.

As an interesting aside, I don't know if any of you have ever checked your arrow concentricity (how perfectly round the arrow actually is....), but I know that out of every dozen arrows that made, not all 12 arrows are usually perfectly round. Don't get me wrong, the variation is probably +/- .0001" or some crazy nano amount....but it probably has some effect on arrow flight. I would expect that to affect carbon arrows more than aluminum..

Here is another "interesting" rule of thumb...arrow manufacturers tend to favor the lighter, better flying shaft and broadhead manufacturers tend to favor the heavier broadheads....go figure.

From: Bou'bound
15-Mar-14
Never looked at concentricity but it's a good idea. Have you decided on vanes or feathers yet jake

From: Medicinemann
15-Mar-14
Feathers

From: Medicinemann
15-Mar-14
Bou,

I have been told that the ratio of true bowkilled leopards may be even lower than that of bowkilled elephants.....but not because of penetration....

From: Bou'bound
15-Mar-14
The leopard thing does not surprise me. Guys hunting them with a bow may never get a shot, or miss the shot, in the dark, etc. So that ratio would be due to a truly lower number of leopards killed. I would also think that a wounded leopard may not be recovered (really scary thought!)and it's not like the PH can immediately hit the wounded leopard with the riflesince as soon as the arrow strikes the animal will be gone in a flash.

With elephant I would expect nearly every one shot at with an arrow will is going to die. They are not going to be missed (how would you miss an elepant at 20 yards or less????) and the question then comes down to is it death by carbon or lead.

15-Mar-14
Foam testing for penetration of different size arrows is a terrable representation of what happens on game. The larger shaft has to displace more material and the memory of that material presses harder against the larger shaft plus there is more surface to press against. The larger arrow through hide and flesh when following a broadhead will net have near the friction as through foam but still slightly more than the small shaft.

From: Medicinemann
15-Mar-14
TBM.

What do you suggest as an alternative....with the possible exception of the elephants at the Erie zoo? BTW, my nine pound foam is only 2"-3" thick....just like a rib. That provides a better approximation than the Rhinehart does, IMHO. But let's not forget that the rib matter will also compress against the larger shaft....just like the foam does.....and the larger shaft will have more friction as it passes through the rib, just like it does through the 3" 9# foam.

I wonder if it is possible to make "ballistic jel". They use that stuff on Mythbusters all the time....and I wonder how it compares to guts...probably a lot "stiffer" and more homogeneous....but it better than nothing.

I want something that gives me tangible results that I can see....not theoretical stuff.

From: Bou'bound
15-Mar-14
A gallon jug of jello behind a 3/8" plywood sheet

From: Medicinemann
15-Mar-14
I just shot some 1100 grain "logs" that I had made years ago for this exact adventure. They are double walled and the OD is "swedged" down with a tapered insert to match the back end of the broadhead ferrule. I also shot some FMJ DG shafts....

I tried 150 two bladed heads, 180 two bladed heads, and 210 two bladed heads. I looked high and low for my 325 heads, and couldn't find them today.....so they'll get lumped into the next round of shooting.

A couple interesting observations.....blazers penetrated less than the vanes and feathers....every time. The 150 grain two bladed broadhead penetrated the least every time. The 1100 grain arrows under penetrated the 800 - 860 grain FMJ DG arrows every time...by about 15%.

I shot them into the 3"thick 9# foam made by Delta. In fairness to the heavier arrows, I didn't paper tune the bow for the FMJ shafts....and then paper tune the bow for the 1100 grain "logs". I just shot'em...period. If the bow set-up favors the narrower arrows, then their better penetration may be explained by superior arrow flight....nothing more. When we shoot the arrows through the Hooter Shooter, I hope to do some paper testing at that time.

I even recorded broadhead orientation on the riser, versus when it was sticking out of the 9# foam. Some interesting findings there, as well.

Bou',

These arrows blow right through 3/8" plywood (and 55 gallon drums)and it also strips off the vanes/feathers/blazers ....hence the 9# foam. My arrows penetrate less than 18" through virgin 9# foam.

From: Bou'bound
15-Mar-14
What was the orientation of the heads. Did you prove that arrows don't rotate in flight with straight fletching?

15-Mar-14
Ballistic gel Take 1 part pectin powder (same store aisle as gelatin) then take 1 part gelatin powder take 3 parts boiling water (double boiler recommended) Stir until dissolved. Add color if desired A few drops of oil of wintergreen (from baking supply store) can be used as a preservative.

From: Medicinemann
15-Mar-14
Just the opposite....even with straight vanes, they rotated.

Scottie dog,

For real? It's that simple? Thanks....

I am thinking of "making" an elephant. I can use gray burlap as the skin (to hide the ribs from view). Cut 4" wide strips of 9# foam as ribs. Mix my pectin and gel in a garbage bag. Once it is set-up, I can drape the foam "ribs" over the ballistics gel, and cover the ribs with a burlap bag.

Elephants look about 5' wide at the stomach. They look about 3' - 4' wide at the front shoulder. Sound about right?

Forgot to mention earlier, when I was shooting the 1100 grain arrows, I had to use my 40 yard pin at 20 yards (normal arrow weight is only about 525 grains. I could follow the arrows through the air with my eye at 20 yards.....usually not possible.

From: Bou'bound
15-Mar-14
amazing! whodda thunk it! I guess that renders the rib grain debate moot.

15-Mar-14
As much as I like real world testing, it may be a challenge to duplicate with any accuracy the body of an elephant, therefore it might be a good idea to go with calculations like ke and momentum. I do believe that smaller shafts will help in game, just not to the extent that it does on friction targets. Personally my focus would be on beefing up fmj's on the inside, especially to the front if the arrow. I don't know what might fit inside FMJ's other than stringing inverts together.

15-Mar-14
I'm in the process of booking this hunt with a buddy (Pete in Fairbanks)...I think I'm just gonna ask to borrow Jake's bow and arrows for my trip ;)

16-Mar-14
I am a bit curious as to why you don't add wt to the inside of the FMJ. I have also been under the impression that long arrows penetrate deeper and are more stable and less affected by little misdirections upon impact. Some seem concerned about spine and the arrow flexing at the shot and at impact but it seems to me that some of those concerns are negated by what actually happens when an object is in flight. Some flex might be good. I read somewhere that an attala spear flexes as it is thrust forward but the energy is still transfered to the spear as it unflexes. It also occurs to me that a little flex might aid in penetration as the energy stays more in line with the arrow. I do know that longer arrows have less less friction per penetrated inch than short ones.Any length of arrow still outside the animal has no friction and all it's energy is used pushing what is already inside. Once the entire length of the arrow is inside the animal it usually doesn't go much further unless it is already out the other side.

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-14
TBM,

It is my understanding that the FMJ DG arrows are carbon on the inside with an aluminum exterior. The stainless steel insert that I am using is not threaded on the back end, so I can't add more weight to it. I prefer to use stainless steel over brass (which would allow me to use add more weight), because brass may deform on impact, which could split the arrow. I thought about using the brass insert (so I could add weight), and then use the stainless steel outsert (to maintain the integrity of the front of the arrow). Neil Kauffman is actually making my inserts and outserts for me. He advised against it.

Regarding the length....I am of the opinion that the longer the arrow is, the weaker its spine is...especially if you start adding weight to the ends of the arrow. Weakly spined arrows won't fly as well as an arrow that is more properly spined, also compromising penetration. Remember, we are talking some really short shot distances here...so the arrows don't have a lot of time to stabilize in flight.

The double walled arrows that I shot yesterday are about 250 grains heavier than the FMJs. The FMJs definitely outpenetrated them. The problem is that to properly compare the arrows (head to head), I should tune the bow to optimize flight for each type of arrow that I am evaluating. I am of the opinion that optimal arrow flight will play an important role in the total penetration achieved.

A fellow Bowsiter is actually shipping me some of his triple walled arrows. They are smaller in diameter (OD) than the double walled arrows that I shot yesterday, but heavier than the FMJs. We'll them give a whirl, too.

From: Eric B.
16-Mar-14
Someone mentioned Chuck Adams earlier. What was the outcome of his elephant hunt ?

From: Bou'bound
16-Mar-14
The statement that follows was posted by ken moody in July 2012.

Chuck Adams' statement is based on his own personal experience which occurred some years ago. He hit an onside rib head on and his arrow stopped completely. While his equipment would be considered antiquated today, the truth is that 50% or more of elephant shot with an arrow are eventually killed with a rifle. That is a simple fact and any operator who does these hunts would be dishonest or not have much experience with bowhunting elephant if he did not agree. If your arrow strikes a rib dead on the likelihood of breaking or passing thru that rib is slim to none. However, if you miss the ribs then your chances of a pass thru (talking broadhead pass thru) are greatly increased given the efficiency of today's archery tackle. Even then the time it takes for an elephant to die from a double lung shot is lengthy given the sheer size and capacity of the lungs and they can cover miles in that time. Remember, no matter what bow or arrow combination you're hunting with, it's still an elephant.

From: BB
16-Mar-14
Ricardo I thought I had taught you to pull those animals around to get the light right for photos. Ha Ha How you doing and be sure to tell you Dad I said hello to both of you. Glad to see you are still after it with the bow. Did you loose your long bow? Do you still use that?

Have a great bow hunt. BB

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-14

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-14
No disrespect to Ken, but I also disagree with his comment about using a whisker biscuit.

I am at the archery range now, and things are starting to come together.

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-14
Then perhaps we'll be able to show a different possible outcome in the next two and one half months. Especially considering that Ricardo centered a near side rib, and completely penetrated the rib with 93 pound draw weight and 800 grain arrows.

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-14
Double post

16-Mar-14
Ken seemed to think the string on dropaway would hang on stuff buy I can tell you that the little 3 inch string never hung on anything that I went through yesterday and what I went through for about a half a mile was so think you couldn't have seen an elephant at 10 yards or shot him at 5 feet. The WB would probably hung up more, so I would disagree with Ken on that too, respectfully just as I respectfully disagree with using foam friction targets to calculate penetration on game. Foam might well indicate that a smallish arrow following a large ferreled three blade broadhead penetrates best because the three blades and large ferrel cut a path for the arrow shaft that reduces friction on the arrow. You can get similar results with an oversized bullet point in foam yet the bullet point will bounce off game. The three blade is going to have to break bone in three directions...this 2 blade only one. I know the Simmons is larger than the snuffer but will out penetrate it in game.. there is no comparison. I would think 3/4 plywood or press board cut in strips would represent an elephant rib much better than friction foam. Consider that the arrow is going to be lubercated by fat and grease(possibly astroglide) when it hits the rib so I would recommend applying that prior to testing. I really enjoy this thread...it is the highest level of conversation...talking about ideas. Next to it is talking about events. The lowest level is talking about people.

16-Mar-14
I also don't agree with not considering longer arrows based on spine instead of the testing itself. During the early speed chasing years where heavy draw was used to get speed, I saw some using arrows spined for 50 pounds coming out of bows pulling 80 pounds...they flew straight with perfect bullet holes. I admire your willingness to test stuff rather than going by what others say. Looking forward to the next test results.

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-14
TBM,

You are starting to sound like Eleanor Roosevelt, who first coined the phrase about ideas, events, people....etc.

Let me rephrase my remark about the foam.....if an arrow "centers" a rib....it travels through the outermost "hard" part, then passes through marrow. then passes through the back side of the rib (another "hard part").

Which do you think will slow an arrow more...three inches of dense foam (which doesn't trash the feathers/vanes either, since the arrow stops before it gets to them), or plywood (which will trash the feathers/vanes)? More importantly, how do they compare to the toughness of an elephant rib? Have you ever actually used 9# foam? It really isn't very compressible.....

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't care if the foam compresses or not. I am simply trying to increase/maximize penetration without trashing arrows.

On a different note, I just shot a bunch of arrows this afternoon. The range was kind enough to let me shoot my arrows through their chronograph at 0, 10, and 20 yards....and no, I didn't have to buy a replacement chronograph, either.

At 0 yards, my 91# Elite GT500 shot an 832 grain arrow at 244 fps (KE = 110 ft/lbs).

At 10 yards, the Elite GT500 shot the same arrow at 242 fps (KE = 108 ft/lbs).

20 yards downrange, the Elite GT500 shot the same arrow at 238 fps (KE = 104.7 ft/lbs).

I was actually pretty pleased that the loss of KE downrange was actually than 5% at 20 yards.

I also shot the Mathews Custom Safari at 90#. Granted, this is a 13 year old "dinosaur" of a bow, while the GT500 is about half that age. Nonetheless, the Custom Safari shot the same arrow at 225 fps (KE = 93.5ft/lbs). Here is the difference.....the GT500 is max'd out at 91 pounds of draw weight. I have at least 15 pounds of draw weight remaining on the limbs of that Safari Custom. If I crank that bow all the way up (and the arrows have the spine to handle it), I am wondering if I can exceed the KE of the Elite GT500? The advantage of the Custom Safari is that I have two identical bows, and I have shot 100,000 arrows through them. I know those bows well....real well. The Elite GT500 has shot less than 5,000 arrows.

IF the Mathews Custom Safari is max'd out, and it still cannot generate the KE of the Elite GT500, I will take one of the two Custom Safaris as a back up bow....but the Elite GT500 would get promoted to primary bow for this bowhunt. Just for the heck of it.....does anyone know where I can get 100# limbs for a GT500?

I must confess that I hope that Pat gets to tag his elephant first. There are a couple wild ass tests that I would like to try on his animal during the autopsy.....rest assured, if allowed, we'll saw off one of the ribs that covers the heart, and take a photo of that rib in cross-sectional...complete with a tape measure for scale.

I was just reviewing the videos that Greg Kush posted on here previously. Rodolfo used a Whisker Biscuit. Jack Brittingham did not. Both seemed to work quite well. If you look closely at Rodolfo's arrow impact, and then you look at the photos showing the location of the elephant's heart (posted by Ken Moody), it appears to be just behind the back of the heart (Doesn't it?)....but assuming that no guns were used, you can't argue with his success (although I don't know how much time lapsed).

From: Bou'bound
16-Mar-14
Watch out Pat he wants to fill your animal full of holes. There goes the full body mount.

From: Medicinemann
16-Mar-14
I just took the KE of my Custom Safari (93.5ft/lbs) and divided it by the draw weight 90#.....93.5/90 = 1.039.

Even if I could crank my bow up to 110#-112# (the highest I ever got), and even if that ratio continues to hold true, I only get....1.039 X 112 = 116.4 ft/lbs.

Does anyone know if that ratio (draw poundage/KE) actually increases in more than a linear fashion, as the bow weight is increased? In other words, by the time that the bow is set at 110#, is the ratio more like 1.1 or maybe even 1.15? The Elite GT500 is 110/91 = 1.21 If I could get 100# limbs, I would be >120 ft/lbs.....which gives me an excellent chance of completely passing through the thickest portion of the largest elephant rib.

I'll find out soon enough, when I crank it up....I just wondered if there were any physics/math experts out there that could answer my question beforehand.

More than anything else, this is rather dramatic proof of the increasing efficiency of compound bows over the past 13-14 years. I'll bet that Pat's new MR5 set at 80# is going to have some wicked KE!!!

From: Bou'bound
16-Mar-14
Supposedly the relationship is parabolic vs. linear but to what degree I don't know.

From: Medicinemann
17-Mar-14
I realize that this thread is getting long in the tooth, but I am sure that Pat will start a new one when we cross the big pond. Additionally, I would rather have most of my information contained in one thread, instead of having to refer people to multiple threads to follow our research and courses of action.

In the meanwhile, I wanted to let everyone know that Ken Moody suggested that we get travel insurance. His concern was directed at the amount of rain they have been getting in Mozambique to date (implying that they may need to move the dates of the hunt back). However, my follow-up efforts to date suggest that weather related challenges AS THEY PERTAIN TO THE ACTUAL FLIGHT, would be easy to work around.....but as they pertain to the dates of our hunt, are NOT covered. Various other types of insurance are available (which include the hunt itself),......but the estimated premiums are about about 1/2 the cost of the plane fare that is already booked.

With over two months remaining before the actual flight departs, I think that I am going to wait and see what the next month or month and a half bring, before I address this issue in greater detail....but I am open to suggestions or others previous experiences of this nature....

From: Buffalo1
17-Mar-14
Here are my suggestions and previous experience for what it is worth

Travel Guard Insurance in Wisconsin 1-800-826-4919

*Good people *Cost is approx.$55 per $1000 of coverage

*This is insurance covers travel insurance and medical coverage. Have been using them since 2009 for both hunting and personal travel trips.

*Was recommended to my by BSC

From: Bou'bound
17-Mar-14
thanks for the update on the travel insurance. I hope that works our for you. best case would be you don't need it and can go as planned. what will a delay mean in terms of moon phase and does than have any impact on hunting elephants?

From: Rick M
17-Mar-14
Jake, forgive me if I missed this but will you and Pat be able to keep us in the loop via semi live or at least some updates while on this hunt?

I realize it is difficult but with the build up to this hunt you may end up with a mutiny if not.

18-Mar-14
Insurance...does anybody take a chance anymore? I bet you could buy constipation insurance...just in case.

From: Medicinemann
18-Mar-14
Rick,

I don't anticipate much chance for daily updates from the middle of Mozambique...but if the technology is available (on trips to a base camp or lodge), I can tell you that Pat is very conscientious about his daily updates to semi-live hunts....he'll do his best to keep everyone in the loop.

TBM,

As I stated in my previous post, right now, it is my intention to NOT purchase the insurance. Ask me again in 45 days, when the hunt is two weeks away and we have a better idea about possible weather-related delays. Considering we're bowhunting for elephants and our expected shot distances are 10-12 yards, I would say "yes", people still take chances....LOL

Shot the Elite GT500 tonight, and chronographed one of my 510 grain arrows. It flew 317 fps all three times. Now I realize that KE is just one indicator of arrow energy, and that momentum comes into play as well. But right now, I am getting 113.8 ft/lbs from my whitetail arrows....Jeesh, that's more than my elephant arrows are getting!!

From: troymclellan
18-Mar-14
"Considering we're bowhunting for elephants and our expected shot distances are 10-12 yards, I would say "yes", people still take chances....LOL" PMSL aint any insurance company gunna cover you for that. Then again Following this whole adventure with anticipation. Despite the length of the thread please keep it coming. Start part 2 if need be.

18-Mar-14
Jake,

This thread has had a bad influence on me and cost me money.

Peyton and I just paid our deposits and booked the same trip for May 2016!

We are now even MORE interested in whether you and Pat survive....

Pete

From: Pyrannah
18-Mar-14
Pete thats pretty funny!!

Lovethis thread wish i had somthing to contribute though

Good luck guys!!

From: Florida Mike
18-Mar-14
"Insurance...does anybody take a chance anymore? I bet you could buy constipation insurance...just in case.TBM"

Jake don't worry bout no stinking constipation! He makes toilets out of ice blocks an sits on his gloves! Hahahahahahahaha! Mike

From: Medicinemann
18-Mar-14
Emphasis on the word "sits"......and I am glad that you spelled it correctly!!! LOL

From: Eric B.
18-Mar-14
Bou , He can still do the body mount, astroglide , remember ?

18-Mar-14
I would like Pat to post Jake's camo garb again. That was interesting.

18-Mar-14
I think Jake intends to rub fresh elephant poo on Pat's head before Pat's killing stalk ensues

18-Mar-14
Congrats Pete. Very cool.

From: Beendare
18-Mar-14
Jake, I'm surprised you are messing around with those 840gr arrows....get some 1200g and quit messing around........KE means nothing!

18-Mar-14
I purchased insurance through Travel Guard for my 2012 Africa trip. It was recommended by BSC and several people here on bowsite. They bailed me out when I had to cancel my trip at the last minute. They were very easy to work with and it was well worth the money. After using them once I will never take a chance again.

From: ESP
18-Mar-14
Jake, what is the point of diminishing returns on your arrow/bow set up? I have always pondered this but have never heard of anyone testing at what I think is near the limit of diminishing returns. Just the nerd in me coming out. ESP

From: Bou'bound
18-Mar-14
does than have any impact on hunting elephants?

From: Bou'bound
18-Mar-14
does than have any impact on hunting elephants?

From: Medicinemann
19-Mar-14
ESP,

I am not sure that I understand exactly what your question is, as it pertains to diminished returns and my setup. Do you mean in regards to the amount of time spent?...do you mean with respect to KE/ momentum? Do you mean in regards to some other facet?

19-Mar-14
I have wondered the same thing that what I think ESP was asking... If you keep adding arrow wt, will there be a point that ke and Momemtum stop going up or at least have very little gain and is so, where is that point. I wonder if there is something else that we forget to factor in. I have always heard of pine straw stuck through 2x4's in catagory 5 hurricanes and that sounds impossible as pine straw has very little spine but when speed is added it is stiff enough.

From: Medicinemann
19-Mar-14
If that is the question that ESP was trying to ask, I can tell you that I am actually getting slightly higher KE with a 90# bow and a 510 grain arrow (113ft/lbs) than I am with a 90# and an 828.4 grain arrow (110 ft/lbs).

What is the equation for momentum? I'll calculate that as well, if someone gives the equation....I should expect the heavier arrow to fare better in that regard, because of increased arrow mass, shouldn't I?

From: GhostBird
19-Mar-14
I am thinking, more than likely, you will only get one shot. So, how many arrows will you have made up total and how many will you carry in the bush?

From: Bowfreak
19-Mar-14
If you can provide the data in the box bracketed in red I can give you the information you would need on your bows performance and whatever poundage and arrow configuration you are curious about.

 photo Jakebow_zpsc94945c4.jpg

From: BowMad23
19-Mar-14
Velocity is the more critical term in calculating KE, as it is squared. For momentum, velocity and mass are of equal "weight" in the calculation. Thus, yes you should expect to get a considerable amount more momentum from the heavier arrow.

From: Medicinemann
19-Mar-14
I shot a 2012 Mathews MR5 this morning. 80# limbs, 30" modules, and as the model number indicates, 5" brace height. We Max'd out the bow at 84#.....and our best KE was 115.8 ft/lbs (249 fps). I was actually quite surprised at how easily the bow drew. I was also surprised to learn that the 85# limbs of a Monster Safari can be used on an MR5 riser.

A couple local archers are considering letting me use their bow for the hunt because I offered to let them keep the modules and limbs after the hunt. Right now, I am guessing that 85# limbs would max out around 88#-89#.....maximum KE would probably be right around 120 ft/lbs.....

From: BowMad23
19-Mar-14
BTW, the article where Pat has the KE calculator on Bowsite says that KE is king and momentum doesn't translate to the real world. I read part of the article, which I had not done before, and found that tidbit quite interesting. Lots of tools on Bowsite that many may not be aware of.

From: Bou'bound
19-Mar-14
is pat going through this bow option conundrum as well or is he all set

From: Medicinemann
19-Mar-14
Remember, Pat will shoot whatever his bow sponsor gives him.....probably an MR5 or a Monster with 80-85 pound limbs.

From: ESP
19-Mar-14
Jake, TBM stated what I was trying to ask.

From: JCHB
20-Mar-14
A point for all to consider.... when hunting elephant with a gun does one use a light super fast bullet with mega KE or a big heavy one at slower speed with more momentum?

I think your answer for arrows is contained right there.

JCHB

From: Medicinemann
20-Mar-14
JCHB,

Is it possible that you are comparing apples and oranges (to an extent), because you are comparing head shots to heart shots....?

Many an elephant has been killed with a .300 grain bullet before .375 became the minimum grain allowed.....because they body shot the animal, instead of taking head shots. I am wondering if the heavier grained bullets are a necessity if you have a close encounter and need to stop the animal in its tracks....that is probably not going to happen with an arrow, regardless of your arrow weight.

In fact, on page 6 of Wanderings of an elephant hunter (W.D.M. Bell), he states that he killed many elephants with calibers ranging from .416 to .256. He states that if the animal is shot in the right place, they died just as quickly with either round....and when the right wasn't hit, regardless of caliber, death did not ensue. He goes on to state that every hunter should simply use the weapon that they have the most confidence in.....

He also states "The deadliest and most humane method of killing the African Elephant is the shot in the brain. Its advantages over the body shot are numerous, but among them may be mentioned that it causes instantaneous death, and no movement of the stricken animal (whereas a heart shot animal will run run off, communicating panic to the others in the vicinity).

The video "Hunting the African Elephant: The complete guide" from Charlton McCallum Safaris (which I highly recommend) supports the fact that given a charging elephant, more gun is better. Even if you miss the brain, a heavier bullet will stop or turn an elephant more times than an lighter bullet....giving you more time for a follow up shot....or time to reload. Again though, this applies mostly to head shots. Heart shots are not his favorite....essentially rendering any archer to his lesser preferred first shot target.

That is one of the more intriguing aspects of this adventure....you obviously prefer the heavier set-up, and your results speak for themselves. Ricardo Longoria used the heavier on his couple elephant bowhunts, and had his best results when he trimmed back on his arrow weight and diameter. I am simply trying to footnote my findings, as they help lead me to my decisions, and we'll let the results take us where they take us.

Just a thought......

From: JCHB
20-Mar-14
medicineman, I take your point but even a .375 is a "medium" calibre and would be regarded as "heavy" compared to the 7mm's or .30's. What I'm trying to say is bigger is better in general and momentum wins over KE when elephant hunting.

I agree with your sentiments on the video from Charlton McCallum. It was a contributing factor to me booking my second safari with them!

I really look forward to your hooter shooter experiments

JCHB

From: Bou'bound
20-Mar-14
What caliber is the PH carrying on this adventure?

From: Medicinemann
20-Mar-14
Bou,

We won't know that until we arrive.....

From: Stekewood
20-Mar-14
My money is on him carrying something that starts with a .4..... at least, and I would be uneasy about sinking an arrow into an elephant at 15 yards if it didn't.

20-Mar-14
Bou...as long as the PH has shot his back up weapon through a hooter shooter...all should be fine :-) Haha...kidding Jake.

From: Ken Moody
20-Mar-14
I will be carrying a .458 Lott. Steyn will be carrying a .458 WM.

From: Stekewood
20-Mar-14

Stekewood's embedded Photo
Stekewood's embedded Photo
.458 Lott on the left, .458 Winchester magnum on the right with the .375 H&H in the center for comparison. Interestingly the .375 H&H is the parent case of both of the big bores, but there is no comparison when it comes to power. The Lott shoots a 500 grain bullet 2,300 f.p.s. which provides almost 6,000 ft. lbs of KE. That's some serious stopping power. Not trying to steer things away from the archery discussion but since arrow weight and KE are a big part of this thread, and back up guns were brought up, I though some would find this interesting.

From: TD
20-Mar-14

TD's Link
Stick one at 15 yards.... make like you're a mouse.... I hear they're scared of mice.... =D

What Beendare said. KE is the one that has little bearing in the "real" world. KE can be almost useless in some cases because of the role velocity plays in the math. Consider some real world...

A 55 grain 22-250 and a 405 grain 45-70 both have roughly the same KE, in the 1600 range according to a Remington chart. Yet which caliber would you take for dangerous game? The 45-70 has killed train loads of buffalo, grizz, moose.... every NA game animal there is. I know nobody in their right minds that would take the 22-250 as a back-up for grizz, but a great many can and do pack the 45-70. When that big ol slow lump of lead hits... wow, KE numbers go out the window.....

Admittedly extreme comparisons, likely so extreme they may not apply to this case. And in all honesty with different loading you can pump that 45-70 all the way up into and a little bit above...... the 243 energy range... =D

From: Stekewood
20-Mar-14
It's very difficult to compare bullets to arrows because of the difference in how they kill, however it's pretty widely accepted that heavy for caliber bullets WILL penetrate better. Light bullets are often intentionally chosen because their high velocity causes them to inflict incredible damage when the bullet comes apart inside the animal. On a broadside double lung hit where no major bones are hit the shock imparted by the 55 grain 22-250 bullet will absolutely flatten deer sized game while the big slow 45/70 is more likely to punch a big hole through and lead to a death run similar to when the animal is hit by an arrow. In addition to KE and momentum, bullet construction and it's sectional density play huge roles in penetration, which is why heavy, solid bullets are used when penetration is critical (like stopping a charging elephant).

An arrow's KE is so low that shock plays pretty much no role in killing the animal so penetration potential is everything. I'm a momentum guy and believe that heavier arrows will always penetrate better. With shots being limited to 20 yards, trajectory is a non issue so I'm with Beendare and TD. Go as heavy as you can while maintaining perfect flight. What do see as an upside to using a lighter arrow?

From: Txnrog
20-Mar-14
Jake, you asked about the momentum calc - just google archery momentum calculator. It's just mass times velocity but you have to convert the units. You should be looking for something well over .64 or so - I am getting that with a longbow and 800gr arrows.

I am in the crowd that would almost ignore KE- it's more a measure of the energy in the bow and how that is transferred to the arrow- great for calculating bow performance, but not penetration. Momentum really measures the force required to stop an object, which is what matters to archers. All the other factors like mechanical advantage, shaft diameter, FOC, and of course arrow flight just help optimize the use of that momentum once it meets resistance.

Call me a geek, but I put more weight in the math than individual experiences - theres not a big enough sample size and too many variables on live game and equipment choices to rely on anecdotal evidence.

What I will say is even the math shows that every bow will have a sweet spot where it maximizes the use of its energy, and the arrow maximizes it's ability to retain that energy, so heavier isn't by itself always better. All else being equal, skinny, stiff, weight forward, and heavy will give the highest probability of performance in adverse conditions.

I have found this to be a good article to explain it. http://archeryreport.com/2012/01/kinetic-energy-momentum-arrows-simplified-approach/

From: Medicinemann
21-Mar-14
"Go as heavy as you can while maintaining perfect flight. What do see you as an upside to using a lighter arrow?"

I don't believe that I have seen an advantage to the lighter arrow yet. All I have said....er....typed, is that I am going to use a Hooter Shooter to help me determine my optimum arrow set-up. Others have shared some interesting, although contrary set ups and suggestions. I know that I am using a two bladed broadhead. That is not negotiable. I also know that I am shooting 4" feathers.

One observation that I have noted, is that it seems to be easier to get extremely sharp edges on the "middle weight" broadheads as opposed to the "heavyweight" broadheads. Now before all of the pro-heavyweight broadhead bowhunters descend on me like a swarm of locusts, understand that I offer NO measurement to substantiate my observation....it's just that....an observation....which is subjective since there is no measurement involved.

I have asked some others try to get scary sharp edges on more than one type of 300-325 grain broadhead (all of which were single beveled, interestingly enough). They weren't able to do so either. I am sure that someone is going to claim that THEY can do it, or have done it. Great....I can't do it, nor could my contacts.

Broadhead sharpness is more important to me than extra broadhead weight (within reason). So those 300-325 grain broadheads probably aren't going to make the final "cut" (sorry, couldn't resist the double entendre)....now, if someone can show me a scary sharp 250 grain broadhead between now and May 26th that flies great on the Hooter Shooter, you will have my attention.

I agree with Txnrog that I want the heaviest, small diameter arrow that I can get to fly perfectly (implying properly spined). Thinner shafts may have a tougher time with extreme FOC setups (again referring to spine tolerances), but I am quite certain that my arrows will have a significant FOC even if I don't use a super heavy broadhead. One thing I am sure of....they will fly true.

One other thing that I am sure is this....I have always been interested in the "science" behind much of this process....but I never took the time to really delve into it. I now know how little I really know about this stuff....but the learning process has really been very enjoyable.

From: Bou'bound
21-Mar-14
"One observation that I have noted, is that it seems to be easier to get extremely sharp edges on the "middle weight" broadheads as opposed to the "heavyweight" broadheads."

why would that be, possibly a function of blade thickness? If so it would seem thinner lighter weight heads would be even easier to sharpen, but at some point isn't sharp sharp?

From: Purdue
21-Mar-14
Momentum has nothing to do DIRECTLY with penetration. Energy is what propells the arrow and is what stops it. Momentum is indirectly a factor because one of its components is mass. Mass is what helps penetration, not momentum. If momentum was truely important, it wouln't matter whether the momentum came primarily from mass or velocity. But it does matter. Shoot two arrow of equal momentum where one gets the vast majority of its momentum from its mass and one the other from its velocity. Now compare the penetration.

Increasing mass makes the bow more efficient. This lets it deliver more KE. Mass slows the arrow thus inducing less drag. This lets the arrow retain its velocity and deliver more KE, especially at greater distances.

Theoritical penetration can be calculated using KE. It can not be done using momemtum.

Txnrog, the link you suggested has a misleading statement.

"As good ol’ Sir Isaac Newton taught us, F=ma (Force=mass*acceleration). In archery terms, this simple equation states that the force slowing the arrow down (mainly air resistance) is proportional to the mass of the arrow and how quickly it slows down. The greater the mass, the more force it takes to slow the arrow down. Considering two arrows of equal outside dimensions, including the point and vanes, but of different masses, the arrow with greater mass will take more force to slow it down."

This is only true if the heavier arrow's deceleration (a) is equal to or greater than that of the arrow with less mass. However, this is not the case. The lighter arrow will be traveling faster and therefore must decelerate faster if it has equal or lesser penetration.

The fact of the the matter is, If they hit with the same KE they will have equal penetration, if all else is equal. Videos demonstrate this.

Momentum doesn't have squat do with penetration....arrow mass does, only because of its effect on the bow and the arrow prior to hitting the target.

From: Stekewood
21-Mar-14
The effect that increased arrow mass has on bow efficiency, and the resulting slight bump in KE, is insignificant compared to the effect it has on the arrows momentum.

From: JCHB
21-Mar-14
Medicineman, will the 200 grain broadhead have a steep or gradual angle from front to back? This thought just struck me. Does the broadhead profile assist with penetration through ribs? Would a more gradual profile (ie Ashby type) go through easier than a more abrupt profile (ie german Kinetic)or would the longer cutting edge just equate to more drag? Not really sure and I'm not a scientist but it's merely another ingredient into the enjoyable mix that we already have!!!

Really looking forward to that Hooter Shooter test!

JCHB

From: Medicinemann
21-Mar-14
Finally!! He speaks....er....types!!

As a point of clarification, I want to state that the heavy weight broadheads that I have attempted to sharpen, have all been single bevel broadheads. I don't know if some people have had great success sharpening single bevel edges, but I certainly have not.....

JCHB,

TBM made mention of the same thing. His preference is to have a "concave" tip versus a "convex" tip. I have got to believe that it does make some difference....but using a thinner, more tapered point also probably makes it somewhat more prone to breaking. I am not saying that they break frequently. I am just wondering if the more tapered, concave points probably don't get shot at elephants very often.

From: Paul@thefort
21-Mar-14
Well guys, 7am---- I started to head out to train my black lab an hour ago but found this interesting elephant thread.

The dog is wanting to go but he will just have to wait.

This is one of the most exciting pre-hunts I have ever read on this site in the past 15 years. My heart rate went up a few beats just reading it and all I have to look forward to is an 18# tom turkey next week. Well, that is, sort of exciting!

Good luck to you both.

My best, Paul

From: Medicinemann
21-Mar-14
On a completely different aspect of the hunt, I have noticed that many of the hunters don't even bother to wear camo....and yet they seem to blend in fairly well, as long as they wear drab olive greens and light browns.

The McCallum Safari video mentions this, but definitely favors a darker colors.

From what I understand, most hunters have to "walk down" their elephant. The animals stride is so long, they can cover significant distances very quickly...despite what appears to be a "shuffle" of a pace. Once the day warms up, the elephant might take refuge in the shade of a tree.....and that is when you can gain on them. I don't know if it will get warm enough in May/June that they will need to seek shade (as that is their Fall). Maybe others (i.e. Ken Moody) can comment in this regard.

Therefore, regarding footwear, I am probably going to go with a fairly lightweight pair of hightop trainers or sneaker type of shoe with a quiet, forgiving sole.

Because I once had a good friend arrive in Africa about 11-12 days before his archery gear did (on a 3-4 week safari), it is currently my intention to take two bows, in two separate cases. I simply won't have a duffle bag. Each bowcase will have about 6-9 arrows, 6 broadheads, one complete set of hunting clothes/shoes, and two releases (as I have several). I will pack a range finder in each case, but everything I have learned so far, suggests that we will be so close, it probably won't be necessary to use one. That way if they both arrive, I am golden....if one of the cases is lost, misplaced, or damaged, I am still hunting.

I hope to be carrying about 20 photos of elephants....taken at various angles (compliments of the nearest zoo). I want to sit down with the PH, Ken Moody, and Pat, and identify exact shot placement....or if the shot should even be considered.

I am having a lot of fun wondering about this hunt. Some of my questions are completely immune to my previous hunting experiences. For example, let's say that we get in close on an elephant, and I make a good shot. The PH agrees, and no gun back up is required. The elephant runs off. Once we take up the spoor, we find the elephant and it is still standing.

If the animal is quartering away at a 45-50 degree angle, I wonder, do we try to get around the animal for a better shot angle? Do we put Pat out front with his camera and Astroglide as a decoy? It is wounded, possibly about the die. Do you wait and let the arrow do its work? Do you try to accelerate putting it down (and risk letting it seeing you, possibly triggering a charge)? Is it possible to make a quartering away shot (this is for follow-up shots ONLY)? IF a quartering away shot is considered (because you are coming in behind the ribs), you should be able to get more penetration...but the arrow might actually have to pass through the stomach to get to the heart. Would it be like shooting through a sawdust pile? After all, they eat leaves, twigs, branches and all.....LOL.....

From: Txnrog
21-Mar-14
JCHB

The effects of Broad head profile are measured in terms of mechanical advantage. On impacting bone the broad head acts as a wedge. Theoretically, it will take less energy for a narrow, long broad head to get through bone - within reason and without failure like tip curling. In practice, however it's less clear b/c the bone may split. If you think of it like cutting firewood - it actually would take less force to drive a machete into a log along the grain than an axe or a splitting wedge. If the log never split we would be using something more like a machete, but since it does split we use a wedge.

Problem with Bone is you don't know if it is going to split or not. It's not consistent and you can't guarantee where you are going to hit it. All that to say it really is a crapshoot, but would avoid extremes on either end to hedge your bets..

Purdue - this is debate free, so won't argue your statement, but will encourage you to re-read the quote you make and your immediate counterpoint they could be read as contradictory.

Here's another explanation that is valid: http://www.tuffhead.com/education/formulas_momentum.html I really like the original definition of momentum as persistence of motion - it's more descriptive IMO

I think the key with all of this (and what gets the most confusing as folks discuss it) is the available energy a given bow can impart on the arrow is fundamentally fixed, so you have to focus on optimizing the performance of the projectile to absorb and RETAIN that energy as long as possible. The other issue is no one takes measurements at 20, 30, 40 yards - they are all cronod within 5-10 feet of the bow, which doesn't give a good indication of how well an arrow retains energy.

From: Medicinemann
21-Mar-14
Txnrog,

You may have missed it earlier in the thread....I chronographed my arrows at 0, 10 and 20 yards. I lost 2 fps at 10 yards (compared to 0 yards), and 6 fps at 20 yards (compared to 0 yards)....and was pleasantly surprised by that finding.

From: Chip T.
21-Mar-14
Most guys will agree Jake, that hunt preparation for an archery hunt is for the most part as exciting if not more so than the actual hunt. You have taken preparation to a new level on this hunt and from your attitude you are having a blast. Good for you! Now just suppose a bull charges, Kens rifle jams and everybody makes a mad dash for safety. Who wins the race between you and your long strides and Pat with his short, broken field moves? Keep up the prep info as all of us are eating it up.

From: Bou'bound
21-Mar-14
"On a completely different aspect of the hunt, I have noticed that many of the hunters don't even bother to wear camo....and yet they seem to blend in fairly well, as long as they wear drab olive greens and light browns."

Heck the guys on TV don't even where long pants. They wear burmuda shorts and gym shoes. Good running shoes I expect.

Sounds like your follow-up questions would be just the thing to get Ken to chime in on. It certainly seems like they don't wait long to end it given what damage a wounded elephant can cause.

From: Medicinemann
21-Mar-14
Chip,

Ken's rifle is the backup gun....if it jams, there is still the "boom" of the PHs gun.

Maybe we can get a video of Pat and me having a prehunt footrace.....(I am an old man...bet on Pat).

Bou'

If I wear shorts and sneakers, you might as well put up a neon sign that says "Jake's legs over here!"

From: Ken Moody
21-Mar-14
At this stage I'm surprised that Jake doesn't have smoke coming out of his ears. Prep time is fun but no need to overthink. In short, we will move in, wait for the best shot presented, take the shot, guage the quality of the shot and take it from there. It's important that when the shot is taken everyone remain quiet and motionless. You have to listen after the shot and try to pick up every sound as you can get many clues from what you hear. If the shot is good we will back out and wait before pursuit. Upon finding the elephant we again will guage it's disposition. If it's still up we will see if we can get another arrow into it. At any time during this process if it charges we will shoot it but that is a last resort. We do NOT want to shoot your elephant. Hunting is fluid. You cannot predict what anyone or the game will do at any time. You just have to guage the situation continuously and act accordingly based upon what's going on at the time. It's alot of fun if you don't put too much pressure on yourself and others.

21-Mar-14
Been reading this post from the inception and thought I would throw in a couple ideas:

I have spent hundreds of dollars in sharpeners/systems with varying degrees of success on big fixed blade broadheads. Then I discovered this paper wheel sharpener -

http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-Razor-Sharp-System/G5937

The learning curve is very easy. It does 90% of my sharpening work and then I finish with a ceramic sharpener or strop with a stick of jeweler's rouge -

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/site-search-results.aspx?sectionpath=3&processor=content&p_keyword=rouge

Finally, it seems like the Ed Ashby study hasn't reared its head here yet. I know not everyone is a fan, but to my knowledge it is the only scientific study done on dangerous/heavy game broadhead and arrow performance as it pertains to weight, design, FOC, etc. Not light reading, but it answers some of the questions raised in this thread. In fact there is an explanation in there as to why an arrow in the 650 grain range CAN work on big bone.

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-W26.aspx

Very excited for you guys. Best of luck.

From: Bou'bound
21-Mar-14
Ken,

You say "We do NOT want to shoot your elephant. Hunting is fluid. You cannot predict what anyone or the game will do at any time. You just have to guage the situation continuously and act accordingly based upon what's going on at the time."

So again I ask what percentage of the time do you have to shoot. Is it still "the truth is that 50% or more of elephant shot with an arrow are eventually killed with a rifle." view that you shared about a year and half ago?

You think Jake is overthinking this now???????? Heck, he does not even get revved and serious until 45 days before..........this is nothing man! The best is yet to come.

This thread has four digits written all over it.

From: Ken Moody
21-Mar-14
Yes, 50% or more of elephant bowhunts have resulted in a rifle being used to finish the job but those odds are decreasing as archery equip becomes more efficient. In the past most guys couldn't manage the very heavy archery tackled needed to hunt elephant so they would take shortcuts and use what they could shoot resulting in marginal equipment selection. Today most any grown man can manage an 85 to 90 pound bow which is capable of producing enough arrow speed necessary to gain sufficient KE/Momentum to do the job. SA law, for example, used to require an arrow of 950 grains being shot from a bow generating 105 ft lbs of KE. This formula can now be attained with bows of less poundage then was formerly needed. In the past you needed a bow of 100 pounds or better. This super heavy weight tackle accounted for some mishaps such as prematurely punching the release or release failure resulting in shots loosed at half draw, string loop failures, etc. Of course I mentioned these occurrences on a different thread and was quickly dismissed by a few "experts" who've honed their skills on the ever dangerous whitetail. If you've only consistently shot 60-70 pounds bows then you really have zero idea of how much stress a very heavy bow will induce on every aspect of your gear. The set is only as strong as its weakest link and usually that link is the release aid, string loop, or rest. All of these things should be strong, durable and most importantly, simple. While I think it is of the utmost importance that the client be comfortable and confident with his selected equipment it is just as important that those being placed in the same potentially dangerous situation be equally confident. This is why I am following this thread with more than a casual interest.

21-Mar-14
I can tell you the folks booked for this hunt in the future are paying very close attention!

From: Buffalo1
21-Mar-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Jake,

This may be your best laugh for the day buy as far as hunting attire (aka "cute outfit" as my wife calls them) I would recommend Carhartt Overalls in the traditional rust or chocolate brown color. Wash them and get them soft and quiet, yet tough. I think they would be tough enough to handle the brush and thorn bushes that you will probably be encountering.

Having hunted in 2 different locations in RSA and 1 location in Namibia I believe the terrain may be similar to the photos that I will share. There is are common threads of thorn bushes and thick brush.

Buffalo1

From: Buffalo1
21-Mar-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Kruger NP area

From: Buffalo1
21-Mar-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Limpopo Province

From: Buffalo1
21-Mar-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Namibia brush with a nice kudu bull staring me in the face. He was about 15 yds away. I had to shooo him out of the way to get to hide!!!

From: Medicinemann
21-Mar-14
Ken,

Does current Mozambique Law require any special arrow weight OR bow poundage? Currently my arrow weight is only 830-840 grains. Depending on which bow I shoot, my poundage will be in the 90#-105# range....but I have been shooting this bow for 13 years, and am quite comfortable and confident with it. Currently, my KE is only in the 108 ft/lb to 114 ft/lb range. Are there any requirements for minimum KE, in Mozambique, as it pertains to elephant bowhunters?

From: Bou'bound
22-Mar-14
Jake, in all this planning and delving into the detail just now asking the outfitter if there is there a legal requirment? You're slipping man! LOL

From: Ken Moody
22-Mar-14
No, there are no bowhunting regs there. I seriously doubt there is a chronograph in the entire country.

22-Mar-14
Ken Moody is spot on. Equipment has evolved so much in the 10 years since I did my first Elephant hunt. So has the collective knowledge of PH's and bowhunters regarding Elephant hunting and what it takes to be successful with a bow.

Another important consideration when evaluating the need for a rifle finish off shot or not is the human population density of the area. An experienced PH will likely allow more time for the arrow to work on its' own if there is little risk of anyone outside of the hunting party encountering the wounded Elephant versus if there are people living in the area that might get hurt if encountering the wounded Elephant.

When hunting communal areas in Zimbabwe, for example, this was always top-of-mind. Before even deciding to "close the distance" on an Ele, we were evaluating the proximity of the nearest settlement.

A good shot on an Elephant might take a while to work. If there is the risk of that Ele encountering somebody and hurting them while in the process of succumbing to the arrow, there is only one option.

From: Medicinemann
22-Mar-14
Bou,

Gimme a break....we're still more than two months away!!

Did some more testing last night up to 105# draw weights. My shoulder is a little sore as a result....so I going to give it a couple days to recover.....

I am going to try to contact Barnsdale's on Monday, to see if I can get 100# limbs for an Elite GT500.....but if not, I still believe that either of my existing set-ups can get the job done....I am leaning towards the Elite GT500 as the primary bow, right now. It draws easier than the Custom Safari max'd out, and gives about the same KE.

Ricardo,

Thanks again for sharing. This is so outside of the majority of hunting considerations!!.....you don't hear many people worrying about a wounded gobbler attacking the neighbors children....

From: Buffalo1
22-Mar-14
Jake & Pat,

There is a very interesting article in the March/April 2014 issue of Sport Afield written by Ivan Carter. The article is entitled "How Close Is Too Close" (pp.68-75). The cover of this edition of the magazine is a hunter on shooting sticks with a tracker behind the hunter. This is the newsstand issue not the subscription issue.

The article may be of interest to you as it provides a lot of good info about approaching elephants close, elephant behavior when approached close by hunters, reactions to gun shots, elephant (and hunter)behavior following a shot and when it is necessary for a PH to intervene with a follow-up gun shot. Even though this article is addressing gun hunting much could be applied to bow hunting.

I had the privilege of hearing Ivan speak at the recent DSC Convention. He is a great speaker and if he were a preacher, he could deliver a sermon in 10 minutes or less. His words travel fast and with clarity.

22-Mar-14
I agree with bows shooting harder part but they are not easier to draw...they are harder...a lot harder. Back when the first HC Trophy hunter came out there were women shooting 80 pounds with those bows in tournaments. I shot 103 at turkey and never worked out back then. The draw cycle peaked for about 3 inches near letoff so you could get a running start and blow through the peak. Bows that pull 80 now start at 80 and stay 80 until letoff making it much more difficult to draw high poundages...but you don't have too. My 70 pound Hoyt will out shoot the 103 pound HC.

From: TD
22-Mar-14
"If I wear shorts and sneakers, you might as well put up a neon sign that says "Jake's legs over here!" "

Thinkin' out of the box here.... have you considered an ostich outfit???? Or maybe just white shorts and a black shirt..... =D

Regardless seeing the thorns and such that seem to be everywhere over there.... every PH you see on TV is wearing shorts. Talked about this once to a guy visiting here from SA, he said:

(1) it makes you move slower.

(2) the pants don't heal up... you legs will....

(3) there are more and larger trails around than you'd think. Nobody goes through the thick thorns.... no matter what they are wearing.

".you don't hear many people worrying about a wounded gobbler attacking the neighbors children.... "

Well.... no. You wouldn't think so... but....not outside the realm of possibility on this site....

From: Buffalo1
22-Mar-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
On my last African adventure I wore very soft soled chukka style boots. This is a photo of one of my boot soles after returning to hide from tracking an animal. Thorn tore both pairs of pants legs and thorns were imbedded in socks.

I would seriously consider the low cut gaiters that covers socks/ shoe laces if I were going to be doing a lot of walking which will be required on an elephant hunt.

A hunter in the bush will not escape thorns in Africa.

From: Buffalo1
22-Mar-14

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
These are the thorns I picked out of one boot sole with my pocket knife after returning to hide.

From: Bou'bound
23-Mar-14
Jake three elephants escaped from the circus in St Louis yesterday. If you hurry you may be able to do some live penetration tests. Unique opportunity and given the fact they are already roaming US soil I don't believe the importation laws will apply. You may get to keep the ivory.

refer to CNN and let us know how you make out.

23-Mar-14
There is probably one elephant in Mozambique wondering how much ke it takes to permanently implant the medal bump on top of a ball cap into a skull and one not letting on how it plans to defend itself and both laughing at a mere 800 grain stick tickelingvtheir ribs.

From: Medicinemann
23-Mar-14
If II can tickle their ribs as well as Ricardo did, I'll be pleased. Ricardo's arrow was actually just UNDER 800 grains. Mine looks to come in at least 5% heavier. However, like I have been saying for a while now, let's wait and see what the hooter shooter results are... That is going to provide most of the information from which I make my final decision. I will be dropping off the gear this week and hope to have a decision within a week or two.......

From: MBMule
24-Mar-14
Jake, check your PM's.

24-Mar-14
I have always worn shorts while hunting in RSA. And, as Buffalo1 suggests, I use the short gaitors (known in Australia, where I got mine...as "sock savers."

The short gaitors effectively keep san/gravel and spikey, itchy grass seeds from working into your socks and down into your boots.

Those gaitors can be difficult to find here in the States. I have a pair I'd be glad to loan you if you want. They are effective even with long pants!

In addition to being MUCH more comfortable in terms of temperature, as TD suggests, wearing shorts DOES force you to go slower and more deliberately. I also found that while stalking through brush, it is much more quiet than just about any fabric long pants are made from. Do your legs get thorn scratched from time to time? Sure, but that evil vegetation will scratch you right through cotton pants anyway, so why not be more quiet?

One more thing... I take the time before going to Africa and hunting in shorts (and often shirtless,) is I always go to the "Plastic Beach" (tanning booth) and get a good base tan.

Let me know if you wish to borrow a pair of "sock savers" and I'll get them right in the mail to you. Maybe you can find a local sewing machine jockey to make you a couple extra pair using mine for a pattern.

Pete

From: Txnrog
24-Mar-14
Pete, I can't say I ever thought of hitting a tanning bed as a prerequisite to an elephant hunt. Maybe Pat and Jake can get themselves a matching pair of jean cutoffs while they are at it.

Tanning beds, shorty shorts, and astro-glide . . . . This could be a really, er interesting semi-live hunt.

From: Chip T.
24-Mar-14
I trust that these guys will model their hunting attire for us before they head out. It's the least they can do for us:)

From: Fuzzy
24-Mar-14
following with interest and enthusiasm...

From: TD
24-Mar-14

TD's embedded Photo
TD's embedded Photo
I thought Jake had his picked out already???

EDIT: With all due recognition.... this was Pat's suggestion first... =D

From: Buffalo1
24-Mar-14

Buffalo1's Link
Here is a link to the style boot gaiter I am referring to.

From: bb
24-Mar-14
Chip...be quiet...I don't wanna know.:)

From: Bou'bound
24-Mar-14
well it took over 300 posts but we have officially migrated this thread from the sublime to the ridiculous.

I would expect, at this point, there will be no turning back.

24-Mar-14
Thats why I hunt with Pete...we go tanning first!

From: Beendare
24-Mar-14
Gotta go with the odds on this one....TD was right, I couldn't find one single case of an elephant stomping an Ostrich....not a one, that tells you what you should be wearing right there.

From: Ironbow
25-Mar-14
Day One Camo also makes the boot gaiters.

From: Medicinemann
26-Mar-14
I dropped off my gear yesterday.......hopefully, in the very near future, I will have a very good idea of what my final elephant setup will be.....

From: Chip T.
26-Mar-14
Oh goodie!!! I am sure we are all waiting with baited breath, sitting on the edge of our chairs. The suspence is killing us to no end.

And let's not forget gang, that all this excitement is brought to you by the one and only Ken Moody running a Jumbo special:)

All this has really been entertaining and informative and I am sure that all of us can't wait fo the hunt.

From: Bou'bound
28-Mar-14
Any updates on the weather over there. have the rains subisided.

From: TD
28-Mar-14
Jake... when the hooter testing starts.... I mean, you know, the bow kind.... maybe start part deux??

this sucker is taking some time now to load on my slower than average connection...

thanks for takin' us along by the way, and putting up with us.... er... ok, me, whatever.... =D

From: MBMule
28-Mar-14
Jake, I sent you a couple of PM's last week. Did you receive them?

28-Mar-14
'Bou...I know it finally stopped raining to the West of there and the rivers were finally going down, opening some roads back up. I bet the bush is really green and extra thick now!

From: Bou'bound
28-Mar-14
Is there any chance of videoing the hooter shooting work. that would be must watch bowsite video for sure!

From: Buffalo1
28-Mar-14
2 days since any word from Jake. No white smoke coming out of the smokestack yet.

Jake must still in the lab playing with his Hooter!!!

From: Medicinemann
28-Mar-14
Instead of shipping the bows and arrows, I mixed business with pleasure, and drove them to BowXperts in Barrington, NH. I dropped them off a few days ago.....and since my business in that area concluded today....I stopped by, just on the chance that they might be done. They were not. I am heading home without them. Since I will be back in the near future, I will hope to get them at that time.......

From: Buffalo1
29-Mar-14
Looked up BowXperts website and they look like a really neat deal. Being a "techie sort" I could really get into how they tweak a bow and collect data on the bow/arrow performance.

From: Medicinemann
30-Mar-14
I get my shots tomorrow. Since I have never traveled to Africa before, the Chautauqua County Department of Health has scheduled me for Hep A, Hep B, Typhoid, Tetanus, Polio booster, and Yellow Fever. I think that I get them in two different sessions, as two of the shots can make some people ill for up to a few days. I also need to get an Rx for Malarone.

The process is starting to accelerate, and the time is starting to pass by almost too quickly. I look forward to finalizing my arrows. I sent five different broadheads for consideration, but I have already ruled out one of the five (150 grain German Kinetics SilverFlame is simply too light for my liking)....and it underpenetrated the other heads every time.

Before sending my gear out, I shot numerous arrow set-ups into some 9# Delta foam. In this instance, I don't care if it accurately represents an elephant rib or not. I simply wanted to see how much each arrow penetrated. None of the arrows were able to pass completely through the nine pound foam.

I used three bows. A Mathews Custom Safari at 100#, a Mathews Custom Safari at 105#, and an Elite GT500 at 90#. I contacted Barnsdale about making 100# limbs for the GT500. His voicemail response said that his insurance policy prevents him from doing so.

I tried three different arrow setups....a triple walled 300/371 right at 1,000 grains, FMJ DG shafts at about 830 grains, and some double walled CXL Hunter 350 shafts (big diameter logs) that weighted in 1,100 grains. The weights mentioned all include a 200 grain target tip.....if we use a heavier head, just add in the difference. Someone mentioned using longer arrows for more weight....no good....they acted underspned. I confess, I even tried a few shots with a 300-325 broadhead versus the target tip (as I couldn't find 300 grain target tips)....they didn't penetrate as well....

The four finalists were an Ashby head, a 325 VPA head, SilverFlame 180 grain head, and SilverFlame 210 grain head. I have had trouble getting the single bevel heads to sharpen particularly well.....as did some of my friends. We can get them sharp, but nothing like the GK heads.

I stood at 10 yards, and shot into 9# Delta foam. I don't care whether the foam approximates an elephant ribs or not. From my way of thinking, every arrow has to penetrate the foam on its own merit. If it correlates with KE, or momentum, that is cool....but I simply don't care. I am focused on penetration, period. Vanes versus feathers, large diameter versus small diameter, extreme FOC versus less extreme FOC, etc didn't weigh into this experiment. Penetration at 10 yards is king....period.

To determine my primary bow, I shot the 300/371 and the FMJ DG shafts until my shoulder started to ache....probably 20 arrows each. I got 25 inches of penetration with the GT500 and the 105# Safari....less with the 100# Safari. Since the GT500 is 15# lower draw weight....that is the primary bow.

The Carbon Express shafts got 18-19 inches of penetration. The 300/371 shafts got 22.5 - 23 inches of penetration. The FMJ DG shafts got 24-25 inches of penetration. I shot into new portions of the foam each time, so no one arrow could hit a "soft spot". The FMJ DG shafts started to act slightly underspined at 105#. Same for the 300/371 shafts. They flew well (based on paper) when shot from the GT500 and the 100# Safari.

I am waiting for BowXperts to give me their results (which will include Seth also trying to sharpen the 325 grain, single beveled VPA broadhead). Right now, my gut tells me that I will be shooting a 30" FMJ DG shaft at 830 grains. I still haven't heard from Neil Kauffman regarding his inserts and outserts. I will call him (instead of texting) this week. I want a full month of practice with my final gear....six weeks would be even better....

To better learn elephant anatomy, I am going to try to contact the veterinarian at the Erie, Pa zoo (That should make for a real interesting introduction and conversation!!) Currently, I am of the opinion that I need to hit the animal high in the heart. We're talking auricles, not ventricles....and if I sever the aorta at the very top of the heart, so much the better. Everything that I have seen (which isn't as much as I would like), suggests that the top of the elephant's heart isn't tipped forward as much as it is in other mammals. It seems to ride more vertical....suggesting that it is better to aim a little higher, rather than a little lower...

That's the scoop at this point in time.....

From: Medicinemann
30-Mar-14
Yeah....but who has super bowl rings....and who doesn't? It all worked out....

From: Bou'bound
30-Mar-14
Thanks for the update Jake...are you suggesting that the veterinarian at the Erie zoo is going to give you your Hep A, Hep B, Typhoid, Tetanus, Polio booster, and Yellow Fever shots?

From: Medicinemann
30-Mar-14
Bou,

I am contacting the veterinarian at the Erie Zoo in hopes that they would be willing to discuss elephant anatomy with me.

From: Bou'bound
30-Mar-14
Great idea Jake they will be able to help you much more than the Chautauqua County Department of Health when it comes to heart shooting pachyderms. YOU SEEM TO HAVE ALL THE BASES COVERED!

30-Mar-14
There could be something about the slickness of some arrows that translates to better penetration espicially in foam. I am glad to know the FMJ is performing well and this thread has reinforced my decision to go to them next deer season. Probably something in the mid 700 grains should work well and if they will penetrate an elephants rib they should do ok on a deers shoulderblade too. Can't wait to see how this goes.

From: Medicinemann
30-Mar-14
...or it could be that larger diameter arrows increase friction/drag.

One other observation that I have made, is that several different bowhunters have actually attempted various forms of penetration tests on their elephants, after they are dead. The problem is that the vast majority of them are laying on their sides. If they try to shoot an arrow into the abdomen, they are essentially shooting into the belly side of the animal in some/all cases....which would either miss the ribs, or at the very least, hit them at their thinnest point.

From: Medicinemann
31-Mar-14
Regarding penetration testing, this video shows some arrow testing on an elephant that died laying on its brisket. However, none of the post mortem shots contacted a rib. If you watch closely, the test shots hit about an inch to the right of the hole that made the actual kill shot....

This archer used an Ashby broadhead, 90# Elite GT500 and FMJ DG arrow shafts. I suspect that I will be using the same bow, same poundage, and same shafts....only the broadhead may be different....... thanks to INDbowhunter2 for finding this thread in the archives....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iy6uPyQU0U

31-Mar-14
lube up those shafts for penetration. don't take it lightly.

From: Medicinemann
31-Mar-14
The CDC states that travelers to South Africa and Mozambique do not need to get yellow fever, rabies, or polio boosters. I got the typhoid, tetanus, hep A, and hep B shots today. I have to get my next Hep A shot in early May.....and the final one won't be until after I return. Guess that I should have started a little earlier.....

Trying to figure out the best rig for ensuring clean water. Sure am glad that we are on the east coast....I think that Congo just closed its borders due to an outbreak of Ebola....yikes....

Just learned of another bowhunter that is going to Mozambique BEFORE Pat and I do. He is taking a satellite phone with him, so it will be great to get some early season updates from him.....

From: Txnrog
31-Mar-14
Jake, sounds like you are already there, but if you go with the FMJs, would definately recommend footing them and doing something different for an insert. shot FMJs for a long time, and those HIT inserts are not the strongest. Pretty easy to get some cracking and mushrooming where the arrow meets the ferrule with hits on solid material with deer setup energy - wouldn't want to test it at higher energy on an elephant.

I am having some made that fit a .204 diameter shaft for screw ons that mimic gold-tip's accu-tough in/outserts - happy to send you a couple when I get them. I also have some glue-on inserts that I am using as a backup - could spare a couple of those as well. PM me if interested.

-Roger

From: Medicinemann
31-Mar-14
BTW, the other bowhunter that is going before us, will be using a Hoyt carbon spyder turbo set at 85# of draw weight. He is using FMJ shafts with weight tubes and Ashby broadheads.....his arrow weight is 1,115 grains and he reported arrow speed at 207 fps. 104 ft/lbs of KE.

I am respecting his privacy by not revealing his name, but I don't think that he would mind me sharing his specifications for his elephant bowhunt.

Roger, I am using stainless steel inserts (when I finally get them) and stainless steel outserts (that will actually act as a footing). No mushrooming for this guys arrows.

From: Bou'bound
04-Apr-14
Any new updates on this adventure. How did the chat with the local veterinarian go. Are you going to get his input on hippo anatomy as well.

From: GotBowAz
04-Apr-14
Txnrog,

What did you use to glue in your HIT inserts in the FMJ's? I have found that superglue does not get it on HIT inserts. The insert can and will break free on heavy impact and causes the mushrooming your talking about.

I now build my own arrows and I always use the two part epoxy adhesive that comes with the inserts or JB weld. Then I use the BAR collar. My shafts are 550 grains with FP and 100 grain Brass insert. I took 6 arrows and I shot a cement block with them, the FP's stuck about 3/8's of an inch and I had zero damage to the shaft. Im pretty sure without the combination of the JB weld and BAR collar that at 550 grains I would have destroyed the ends of the shafts.

I tried footing them, my drop away (limb Driver) doesn't like them. I would have to add an additional 2 inches to my shaft to clear it. No thanks.

GBA

From: Barty1970
05-Apr-14
Incredible to think that bow technology has come on so that you can contemplate hunting dangerous game with a draw weight of under 100lb

From: Medicinemann
05-Apr-14
Barty,

That really is the truth. My Mathews bows are either 13 or 14 years old. They are in the 100#-105# range right now....and are pushing an 842 grain arrow at 246 fps. A newer, Elite GT500 (about 5-6 years old, I am guessing) with 90# limbs is pushing the same arrow at 245.5 fps. Ten-fifteen pounds lower draw weight, and and only .5 fps slower.

I shot a new MR5 that max'd out on the scale at only 84#, and it was pushing the same arrows at 249 fps. Approximately 20-21 pounds lower in draw weight, and 3 fps FASTER. Incredible is right.

From: Medicinemann
05-Apr-14
Did you see the news release posted on the Home page? It won't affect Pat and I, as Mozambique elephants are not importable anyways....but “Safari Club International’s advocacy team is alerting the international conservation community that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is expected to soon announce a new policy to reject all elephant ivory imports from Zimbabwe and Tanzania."

From: Medicinemann
05-Apr-14

Medicinemann's embedded Photo
Medicinemann's embedded Photo
I think this shot needs to be a little more broadside....

From: Medicinemann
05-Apr-14

Medicinemann's embedded Photo
Medicinemann's embedded Photo
Maybe not.....maybe the angle was deceiving....

07-Apr-14
Astro the arrow and not the string. Geesh

From: Bou'bound
07-Apr-14
what did the chrono say Pat?

From: Fuzzy
07-Apr-14
"My wife was all concerned, but my kids couldn't stop laughing. " par.... count me in with the kids ;0-)

From: Bou'bound
07-Apr-14
Must be something about teeth and dangerous game when Jake is involved. He got his release tangled in his braces while shooting his polar bear and now you are cursed as well.

From: Barty1970
07-Apr-14
PLEASE NOTE: MEDICINEMAN'S MOST RECENT PHOTOS ARE NOT... REPEAT...NOT TO SCALE :-D

BTW 50FPS equates to approx. 40mph if my sums are correct

07-Apr-14
Yeah I got his message a bit late in the evening. I didn't get out of work until about 2 1/2 hours after he left it and thought you had probably driven through by then. Next time. Have a great hunt!

From: Medicinemann
07-Apr-14
Ned,

If you'd stay out of the "off season cornfields", you wouldn't be so late!!

I just got a response from Neil Kauffman, who is making the stainless steel inserts and outserts. His text reads that they will be done Friday, and will ship on Monday. By next week, we will be done tinkering with gear.

07-Apr-14
Jake - Any reaction to the typhus shot?

Quick check of this thread while grabbing lunch. You guys are down to about seven weeks in the countdown, right?

Wishing you all the best. Looking forward to reports from the hunt. And it's good to know that my kids aren't the only ones who find lots of humor at dad's expense.

From: Fuzzy
07-Apr-14
Jake, can Mr Kauffman possible whip up some S.S. front teeth for Pat?

From: Fuzzy
07-Apr-14
Jake, can Mr Kauffman possible whip up some S.S. front teeth for Pat?

07-Apr-14
Pat, most of the BS experts say a surprise release us a good thing. I had a couple myself practicing for turkey before realizing my Scott had worn to less than a hair trigger. I found I really prefer a deliberate release.

From: Bou'bound
11-Apr-14
has the decison on bow been made yet

From: Medicinemann
11-Apr-14
I was notified by Neil Kauffman that the SS inserts and SS outserts will be done by Friday and shipped out by next Monday.

Once I get them, we'll make up the remainder of our arrows. When I go to pick up my bows, we'll shoot each new arrow. That way, we can make certain that they all fly the same.

I have located some 200 grain target tips. Just out of curiosity, what it the heaviest target tip that my fellow Bowsiters have heard of?

My decisions are pretty much done as well.

From: Medicinemann
11-Apr-14
I see that the US F&W service has "set their sights" on elephants and lions.....recent info from SCI includes.....

This year alone the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 1. Has begun work to ban the sale of firearms and knives that have ivory inlays on them. 2. Restricted elephant importations to 2 per year, per hunter; which we believe is in violation of the law. 3. Has banned elephant imports completely from Zimbabwe and Tanzania. 4. Is taking up the polar bear issue again at CITES. 5. Is considering listing of the lion under the Endangered Species Act.

Polar bear are already banned from importation....I wonder what they are trying to do now....(as if they haven't done enough already)?

From: Zbone
11-Apr-14
3rivers sells screw in field points from 200 - 300 grains:

"Choose point weight of 200 grain, 225 grain, 250 grain, or 300 grain"

http://www.3riversarchery.com/Steel+Screw-In+Field+Points+Heavyweight_iCF581X_baseitem.html

From: Badlands
11-Apr-14
I was listening to the Peterson's bowhunting podcast the other day and they were talking about the Rinehart R100 tour. It sounded to me like they had a life-size elephant 3D target available for shooting at the tour.

Promotional gimmick for sure, but might be worth looking into if the tour is coming to your area.

From: Medicinemann
11-Apr-14
I would take a "0" on all of the other targets, if they would let me sign up and then shoot just the elephant target for as many stations as that 3d shoot allows....

From: Txnrog
11-Apr-14
Jake, you can get field tips in 25 gr increments from 100-250gr then it jumps to 300gr. Have yet to find Any heavier than 300gr. Most trad shops will have the heavier weights.

From: Bou'bound
11-Apr-14
what did the vet from the zoo say. Is it possible he would allow you to view the animals up close in the zoo

From: Medicinemann
11-Apr-14
Bou'

The animals are outside during the days now.....I can get real close looks at them when they are outside....I wait until people aren't looking, and then I draw my "air bow" and rest my imaginary bow sight on my targeted spot. One little child saw me doing that, and I could tell that they were curious what in blazes I was doing.

I am a sick man....

12-Apr-14
Mommy, what's that man doing?

From: Medicinemann
12-Apr-14
Jeepers Idyllwild,

Excuse me while I wipe the coffee off of my keyboard!!

12-Apr-14
Ha! I admit to being at the zoo, looking at the animals, imagining their internal anatomy and picking spots when the animals turn in an advantageous way, but I've never drawn an air bow.

I snorted some coffee imagining being there with my kids and having one of them start asking questions or offering their extensive knowledge with regard to form. They can be bolder than TBM, though cuter.

12-Apr-14

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