Ignorance, supported upstream by ineptitude.
What has happened to our ability to elect strong leaders who love and care about this country?
Where is the outrage?
Reid is elected because the unions in Vegas are told to vote for him. The kickbacks will go there, bet on it. WRT politics in NV.... Vegas holds the cards so to speak.
Similar to where I grew up in CA. Far north state, rural, all ranching farming and logging. And zero say on what goes on, regulations and rules, who gets what. The state is run at the whims of the loons in southern CA, just shear numbers.
Nuke a gay tortoise on the way, give the whackos a heart attack.....
LMAO!!!!
The real question should be what are you doing today to stop this assault on YOU and YOUR community?
I'm not sure which assault you are referring to....the assault of Bundy's cattle on public land (our land) that he's not paying rent for?
The Feds coming in with assault rifles to take cattle was extreme to say the least! Maybe a test of public reaction?Maybe I should have been more specific in my broad statement.
My question is to further the thinking on how long will it be until this type of action from the Feds will be at your front door?
It's much later than we all think!
If he was tresspassing and running cattle on someone's private land, would the owner not be entitled to some kind of compensation?
And what if he was running cattle and overgrazing on some critical wintering ground for deer, elk, or antelope....not some turtle. Would all you hunters who may have sympathy for this guy still be supporting him?
I also think the show of force was not necessary (ala lien) and ultimately led to the federal government backing down to the demands of citizens... a huge embarrassment to the federal government and an example of how tenuous their hold to power is. If a government cant look strong to it's own people, how does it look abroad?
Why cant they just round up the reptiles and put them on the vast tracts of desert land that are set aside from hunting and grazing in the deserts of California? Borrego State park (916 square miles), Joshua Tree National park (1234 square miles), and Death Valley Nation Park (5219 square miles) should have enough room for them. The state of Connecticut is 5543 square miles. The state of Rhode Island is 1212 square miles.
Isn't an area bigger than the states of CT and RI put together enough?
"Just saying how do pay for something you don't have?"
He did have grazing rights. They did not revoke them because of the stupid turtle. He was ordered to reduce head counts. At that time he decided to ignore the BLM and quit paying his permit. THEN they revoked it. Two federal lawsuits, appeals by Bundy (both denied), fines levied. Finally, AFTER 20 YEARS, they start rounding up his cattle. I would say there was plenty of "due process".
I consider myself a conservative libertarian but I also love all the public land available out west. Many conservatives and guys like Ron Paul think it should all be sold to the private sector. That is why you see them supporting this guy.
midwest's Link
There is no middle ground news agency in the US and hasn't been since I have been old enough to pay attention.
2) 11+ Million Illegal Aliens are grazing on the US, and most not free, on our dime (Like the check I sent in today). I wish the Federal Gov would react to them in a similar way!
3) No matter who is at fault in this one, Harry Reid is a no good POS
Goodnght
It all looks good until it's you and yours who are in the sights of the Feds. Our laws provide for such an inclusion to the Bundys deadbeat ways.
It's not about him it's about our Federal government changing the laws to make a point.
My family used to hunt on land for decades. The land got sold and we can't hunt there anymore. Just because you did something for years dosen't give you the right to stay there forever.
It all comes down to money, he wants the free grazing to increase his bottom line, even if means taking from the public for doing it. In my opinion, it sounds like plain theft to me.
What is the difference from grazing on BLM land without paying, and cutting timber to sell on National Forest without a contract and permit?
My understanding is they are pretty much the last ranch standing in the area? The others have been all but shut down.... slowly strangled by guess who....
Screw the tortoise...it's a straw, um, tortoise... they have been existing with the cattle for over a hundred years.... BTW you can tell the gay ones by which ear they have their earring... er, ok, no ears... but you can tell by the way they look at ya.....
Anyone have any doubts left about government using the endangered species act to take over pretty much anything anywhere they want to??? Make any rules or law they feel like through an autonomous federal agency fiat???
Vigilance is the order of the day. In many ways this military style occupation was a test IMO.
NOTE: The BLM has snipers and a swat team??? There is such a thing as a "free speech zone" and no free speech out side it allowed under threat of arrest? WTH? Who gave them that power, that authority? Does the forest service have a swat team too?
Yeah... this is all about a deadbeat rancher..... keep that thought....
Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told
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Douche bag Harry Reid taking advantage of a situation to build a solar farm? Totally believable.
Just remember, there is a simple solution....give all that land to the states and let them sell it to the highest bidder. This way the entire west can be just like Texas. It works. I am a strong defender of private landowner rights.
I guess I'm just being selfish because I like to hunt on all that public land. When all that public land is sold, there will only be one way to hunt and that is through an outfitter. That would pretty much end hunting for a lot of us.
Are people proposing that the land be sold off to the highest private bidder? Wouldn't that equate to selling the game species to the highest bidder also?
As for the Bundys, they are whack jobs. They want a free ride on public land. The Nevada Cattlemen's Assoc pays fees to graze cattle but Bundy, who isn't a member, doesn't want to pay.
The local paper says the solar plant was near Reid's hometown, Searchlight, which is maybe 70 miles from Bundy's ranch. It also said the project fell through and won't happen.
The BLM is headed by one of Reid's former staff members, imagine that.
What's probably best for this country is to give it all back to the states and they can control it. This would likely mean selling most, if not all of it off to the private sector. Sadly, this would be the end of western hunting as we know it today.
Who owns the land? You and I, through the Federal government entity the BLM. Not Mr. Bundy. Is/was there rent due for grazing use of the land, and did Mr. Bundy pay it? Yesm and no. Was Mr. Bundy afforded due process through the courts, an opportunity to plead the merits of his position? Yes, and he lost. Did Mr. Bundy continue to graze his cattle on BLM land without paying and in violation of court orders? Yes. Is the BLM legally entitled to remove the cattle off their land if the owner is unwilling to do so? Yes.
If I've got these basic facts correct, the rest is just details and/or old history.
I don't see that it is Government taking a private citizens rights away. If this land had been owned by a private person it would have been over years ago.
There's enough legitimate threats from our Goverment , why make one up?
I don't think you could possibly contradict yourself any more than with that statement and quote.
As far as the government showing up armed that is because Bundy, in court, said if they come he will start a range war. He threatened first so some armed men were there to help protect the people rounding up the cows.
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17:
"To exercise exclusive legislative jurisdiction in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards and other needful buildings;
My biggest problem with this was tactics used. Sending the thugs in is rarely a good solution. The fact that this administration thinks this is an acceptable way of doing business should scare every American. What would have happened if there weren't a few hundred armed citizens there? The Feds find that bully tactics work easily this time, and then what next time? The slippery slope gets slicker real quick. Especially with Chairman Barak at the helm.
Bigdan, I think this is the one? Very interesting. Seems the BLM specifically states at one time the Bundys had to be removed for the Chinese project to go forward. NOT what they are saying right now. They removed references to that and now saying it was never intended for that area.... but the facts say different....
The court as we all know is not the most just place in the land. What chance do you think the Bundy's actually had. Exceptions were made for people of greater affluence.
I am not one for conspiracy but these capitol hill folks do amazingly well at building fortunes in the name of greater good working for the peeps. Pelosi's wealth has increased around $35M in the last 4 years, Bill Clinton's has increased around $90M since 2000, and Al Gore's has increased around $225M in the same time period.
The answer my friends are not blowing in the wind. FOLLOW THE MONEY. We keep hearing about the rich Republicans but newsflash just reported the Dems have the most millionaires on capitol hill.
Anytime money is in the equation all bets are off. I am going to side with the little guy because my trust is waning of the big guys.
One this is political or economical or worse yet both. The endangered species came in late in the game. I have hunted 4 western states and had free range in all of them. The cattle have been there for a hundred years and the tortious has coexisted. Has there numbers declined on the BLM land where Bundy's cattle are? I have not seen any numbers so I bet the answer is NO.
No, I think I will side with the locals on this one. Even if they are all wrong then them standing together is right for me.
I feel freedom, liberty, and justice slipping out the door and I served for twenty four years and will not suffer from oppression through apathy on my part.
WE better get serious or we are going to see our lifestyle go out the front door.
How are you safer if they have all the guns?
How do the antis gain such a big voice when we pay for al the game management?
If they point guns at Clive Bundy will they point them at you?
Many of us have never experienced the Bundy's way of life. I wonder who cares the most about the land?
How many laws do we have to check to be legal every year?
"would have happened if there weren't a few hundred armed citizens there?" (SDHUNTER)
"There's enough legitimate threats from our Government, why make one up?" (Gobbler)
"Selling off our public land or giving to the states is the stupidest suggestion I've ever heard of. Why don't we just scrap the Constitution and The Bill of Rights while we're at it? "Experience hath shown that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." Thomas Jefferson" (MIDWEST)
I want to see the environmental assessment on the impact of the one each Solar Power Plant and the effect on the Tortoise. I bet one has not been done
Urban America is making decisions for rural America. I was born and raised in the country and as they say city folk don't know SH-T...
Just because the locals supported each other doesn't make it right.
He basically stole from the U.S. Citizens, he refused to pay, he ignored court orders, he threatened people that would come for his cattle. Now, keep the details, but switch the circumstances.
What if it were a black guy in downtown Detroit that had robbed a bank, refused court orders, and threatened anybody that came for the money? Who would blame the government going in with a big seat team, snipers, and the whole 9 yards to get him and the money while protecting themselves as much as they can?
I would expect the government to do it in both cases. So what if some consider them over gunned? Each one of the law enforcement officers that went in is a person, a lot have a family at home. At the end of the day they just want to do their job well and do it safely do they can go home at the end of the day and see their family.
What if the government had only sent 3-4 people and with a mob mentality the ranchers had shot and killed somebody? Then everyone would be asking why didn't they send more officers?
Bottom line, I don't care where someone lives or what they do most people know between right and wrong. All the information I have seen points to Bundy being wrong and he should be held accountable in my opinion.
Again, with this current Presidential Administration there are countless episodes of governmental overreach that are probably not Constitutional in my opinion, I just don't see this as being one. I also don't see the fact that Bill Clinton has made a lot of money since he was President has anything to do with this specific incident.
Everybody seems to get hung up on the fact that his family has been doing this for over a hundred years. What if it were something different? What if were that he had been killing numerous deer, elk , and sheep every year and his excuse was that 100 years ago they did it, so I'm doing it now . Would all his neighbors and supporters say well that's ok. Since your great-great grandfather usually killed 2-3 bighorns, 5 or 6 elk and deer apiece per year a hundred years ago then it's ok for you to? In order for society to function, people have to adapt with it. Doesn't mean you have to like it.
I would have liked it when you could have just went to Nevada and bought a sheep license and went sheep hunting, or even before you had to buy a license. But things are different and we have to adapt with them and may never live long enough to get a sheep tag in Nevada legally. Just because I want it doesn't mean I can drive there and just go shoot one.
He had traditional use, water rights,etc. Means a good deal. They tried a case where the feds were a litigant IN A FEDERAL COURT. Many who are judges are raising red flags about this alone. Also realize this should be looked at as a CIVIL case, not a CRIMINAL case. If you don't pay your rent your landlord has to file suit, he cannot file criminal charges. If you are behind on your car payments they (the lien holder) can repo the car, not bring in the swat team and arrest people. It is a civil matter, not criminal.
Essentially it was about money owed, or that is how the feds are pushing the meme. NOT a crime committed. Yet the flippin federal BLM SWAT TEAM (?????) came out, snipers, "free speech zone" and all...
My understanding is he paid the state for the grazing rights until the fed TOOK OVER the land and began slowly moving him off it with new regulations and restrictions, like they had shut down all the other ranches in the area.
If he went and paid any money owed it wouldn't have made a dimes worth of difference. A group has put forth an offer to negotiate any back due grazing fees, but it was refused at the very suggestion.
THEY... HARRY REID.... WANT THIS LAND. Traditional use, improvement and water rights, GRAZING FEES be damned.
This is not NEARLY as cut and dried as some would paint it.
I'm a conservative. I also love to hunt the public land. Double edge sword. Get it?
Rock D, that is not my quote you have in your post above.
"If you are behind on your car payments they (the lien holder) can repo the car, not bring in the swat team and arrest people. It is a civil matter, not criminal."
Yeah, they came to take (repo) the cows. Armed men were there because they were threatened with force by Bundy. I didn't see anything on any arrest warrants being issued, but you try and get in the way of a court order and you will be arrested right?
His cows were on land they didn't have the right to be on, all the way into the Lake Mead recreation area. He never owned any of this land as far as I have seen. He stopped paying for the land he had rights to (if he paid for them). This didn't happen over night.
"This is not NEARLY as cut and dried as some would paint it."
But you appear to want to paint it all as the government as the bad guy and this rancher just trying to make a living.
As far as this solar farm mess goes, that is a whole different can of worms and to me it looks like a government mess. It is unfortunate that Bundy ended up in the picture with his cows but that doesnt make him the victim. He has been in the wrong for 20 years. It is unfortunate how it is finally coming to light and being addressed. I do think the government could have done a little better job of dealing with Bundy.
IMO one of the biggest problems in our country is the lack of a reliable news source that will provide ALL the facts and then leave it up to individuals to come to their own conclusion. Now days you've got to make a choice between a conservative or liberal new outlet and they both pick and choose facts that support their viewers/subscribers point of view. News, politics are both about money.
Being a resident of NV for most of my 49 years and having been run off public land at gun point by a rancher and being denied access to my BLM land by ranchers locking gates that weren't theirs I tend to side with the BLM in this case and after gathering as many facts as I've been able to find. There are a few good ranchers here but most run small operations but few welcome hunters. That said the gov't could've handled this much better, too.
I'm not a lawyer but as far as I know once a person quits obeying a judges order then it becomes a criminal activity not a civil matter. In fact I don't even know if you can have a civil matter with the government?
I don't know how anyone could argue that Bundy has a legal right to that land? Does he have a deed?, does he have a receipt where he paid for it?, has he been paying property tax on it?
If not, then how can anyone claim he has a legal right to the land?
The desert tortoise may not be important to most of us but the rest of the game that would be eating that grass is.
The bank robbery analogy is actually closer than most people think since the FDIC (federal government) insures all deposits up to $250K. So in a bank robbery, the government (US, you and I) are actually the ones paying for it. Bundy is ripping us off and half the people on here are fine with it.
As far as it being hard to be a cattle rancher... maybe it is but beef prices are extremely high right now and the $1.35 AMU price is up from $1.23 in 1966! We are subsidizing ranchers on federal lands. The fact is that the federal government is charging FAR less than private landowners charge.
http://scgnews.com/bundy-ranch-what-youre-not-being-told?utm_source=share-fb
It sounds like he lost his rights when he quit paying for it. If I'm buying a car by making monthly payments and I quit making payments they can legally come and get the car.
If they come back and take the car, I can't claim they stole it and ask for a legal remedy.
Think of him as you want, a hero, a legend, one man making a stand against the government, whatever you want or need to do. In my opinion he's a thief and no better than welfare worms that expect the government to support him at the expense of other people.
Kornze, 35, previously served for eight years as a top aide to Reid before moving on to head up the BLM. He served as principal deputy director from March 2013 until last week, when the Senate confirmed him as BLM director.
Senate Republicans raised an issue with Kornze's age, noting that he didn't have as much experience as previous BLM directors.
Richardson noted that, "Your normal BLM director is a guy who has been in land management for 20-30 years, a grizzled veteran, a career guy. This guy, if he's a career guy of anybody, it's in Senator Harry Reid's office," said Richardson.
Bundy refused to sell his right and shut down. The only one I understand. So they revoked his permit. There are no "grazing fees" involved. He offered to pay them to continue the permit, sent a check to the state for any owed actually. The state sent it back. The feds didn't want the money, not about grazing rights or payment. They want him out. Period.
Essentially what they are doing is fining him for his cattle on the land, because there is no permit to pay on. And adding in "administrative costs" on top.
When the BLM/EPA changed the rules cattle were no longer going to be grazing that land, period. Not that he overgrazed it. Not that the cattle and turtles didn't get along. Not that he owed back fees. The BS about unpaid grazing fees is just that. They shut down the traditional use of the land and thereby threatening the family livelihood. If I recall I read he had the water rights to the area as well, that was taken too.
He was no newcomer that just moved in, he was born there, been there his entire life out in that desert. They have been there scratching out a living on the desert a long time, since in the 1800's. Put in tanks, fences, improvements, etc. LONG before there was even any BLM. (formed in the 1940's if I recall)
There are no grazing permits for that area, all bought out or revoked. They simply decided that a traditional use that had been going on for well over a 100 years could not be allowed to continue. A bunch of pencil pushers in DC found a way to do so, a way to revoke the grazing rights.... a tortoise. Same as they found a spotted owl in CA/OR to shut down smaller loggers from public land, which I watched destroy a community, a rugged individual lifestyle and generations worth of businesses. And made a few select logging operations who owned their own land more wealthy as lumber prices skyrocketed. Anybody know what's happening with that owl right now??? Check it out someday.
It seems the BLM and those in power had a plan, it was specifically mentioned by them that Bundy had to go to create some environmental "mitigation" area to make up for that lost due to the development of solar farms. Essentially a shopping mall in the desert, development wise. It's disingenuous for fed sympathizers to claim "But no solar farms were planned for Bundy's area!". Of course there weren't. His was to be used as environmental "mitigation" for the land used elsewhere for the solar farms. It was stated so by the BLM. You can screw up one area as long as you make another pristine. See: AlGore and how to get rich with "carbon credit sales".
"But the Chinese deal is off the table!" Yeah, the Chinese deal looks to have fallen through. But over 50 others have not, they broke ground on one near Bundy's just a short time ago. And the BLM, run by a former Reid employee, apparently still uses Reid's son's law firm and he will still make boatloads of money from all this. Many other projects are moving forward that require "mitigation" to proceed.... Oh yeah, guess who a big funding source is for those projects??? As with Solyndra and electric car companies..... you and I are....
Again, this is not nearly as cut and dried as some think. And it has little to actually do with cattle and turtles. Both have been out there doing their thing for a very long time not bothering anyone in a place nobody really cared one way or the other. Till now.
Claiming that the Bundy family continued to graze livestock on their old Bunkerville Allotment without permit, the BLM sought an injunction in federal court to correct the “trespass” in 1998. The court ordered the Bundy family remove all non-permitted livestock by November 30, 1998 or face fines of $200 per head, per day. The family appealed to the 9th Circuit Court—only to be denied in May 1999."
Bundy explains he sent his payments to the State of Nevada... The state does not own the land so there was no way that they could receive payment... like you sending me your rent payment when someone else owns the house you are renting. Not really paying ANYTHING if the check can't be cashed! The guy is a leach and he is taking money form all of us.
All the conspiracy theories don't change the facts. He has cattle on OUR land and is not paying! I don't like paying taxes, but I do it anyway...
No matter how much someone romanticizes about it the 1800's and "free range" those days and that lifestyle is over, it's been over a long time. Things change and you have to adapt to continue.
Here's a novel idea, if he wants to run a big herd of cattle then he can buy his own land and run as many as he likes.
Reid is an embarrassment to the state. I sure hope he doesn't get re-elected, but he probably will thanks to the unions, blacks and illegals. If Reid had his way the area would probably be designated a wilderness area making access to it more difficult. He's already done that several times much to the dismay of sportsmen.
Nick
A very interesting read.
They said screw this, we're not going to be jacked around any more. Sometimes it comes down to either make your stand or basically quit. They chose to stand.
Anyone who thinks this is about a deadbeat rancher trying to get away with not paying grazing fees not only doesn't know what was happening but is taking the fed story of "he just didn't pay the grazing fees" hook line and sinker... a line of bovine excrement.
The feds would much prefer to paint this as a deadbeat criminal rancher who didn't pay his bills. ANYTHING but a hard working rancher that was being strong armed off land they had worked and grazed for generations..... and decided no more, not going to stand for this. Why, that might make him a sympathetic figure.....
I would say it's plain and clear this is far more a protest of what they see as an overreaching too powerful federal government from back east in DC..... encroaching on independent ranchers, state and local government, the people who live and work there. An all too common occurrence in this age.
A lot of folks seem to have a hard time understanding who these people are and why they do things. The "bank robber" thing blows my mind. If it were about doing things the easy way they'd be punching a 40 hour clock in some hole of a city someplace. They are hard working, independent to a fault, eat and breath that land and their living.... and most of all just want to be left alone. Some kid who says he's from the government pulls into the yard and starts telling you what you can and can't do.... things you've been doing all your life.... good luck with that.
Crazy, ornery, hard, whatever you want to call them, I'll side with those guys all week long and twice on Sunday. IMO those people have more than paid their dues. They worked the land no one else would or could. When no one else cared about it. The city kid in the suit that pulled up into the yard doesn't know what real independence is and clueless about what it takes to do what those folks do.....those suits can go out and round up all the tortoise they want.
To me it's pretty easy to see who really is the endangered species is in all this. At least nobody I know is targeting the tortoise....
In my heart I'd like to see them just leave these folks in peace. Go back to the old agreement that was working just fine. They didn't ride into town and try to pick a fight, the fight came to them. But I know that isn't gonna happen. The fed will assert their control eventually. Too many wild horse whackos and big business interests involved to let it alone.
Kinda liked to see the feds lost this round though, this battle.... but the war... well, I guess there's always some flicker of hope. Like adult diapers.... all depends...
What to do? I do know I'd like to see far more local control of most things. Far more local input. Input that has some leverage to it. And a way for states and counties to refuse and be able to hold them at bay.... some redress if the fed takes away promised funding in their left hand because they don't "comply" with them with their right. Blackmail should not be part of the system like it is now. Be it wolves, hunting, jobs... more local control. Managing things thousands of miles away from suits in DC... a recipe for disaster IMO. At least for those that are getting managed.
If I recall, one of the reasons given to even have a Federal Government was to protect the citizen's constitutional rights if the STATE was stepping all over them. Now it seems the tables have turned in many ways.
As it is now the feds make a decisions and then stuff it down peoples throats that have to live with it. A better system is needed for challenging the monolithic power the federal government holds. Like consulting the state/county/local for actual permission. And not getting punched in the mouth if they refuse. There is such a thing as good/wise actions/decisions and bad/stupid ones. They should not all be thrown in together as "actions/decisions". "We had to do something" is a scary statement. (almost as scary as "we have to pass it to see what's in it") Doing nothing can and often is the best decision. "do no harm" is not a bad way to look at a lot of things before you "do" something.
As it stands... I honestly can't recall offhand anyone who has challenged them and actually won. In many cases it's illegal to even take them to court. The rest of the time it's nearly unrealistic, they have teams of lawyers waiting for something to do. They own most of the courts as well. EPA says endangered.... well, sorry, you have to move your house. That grasshopper needs the space. And there's not a flippin thing you can do. Well, maybe in some cases.... I'm gonna guess if you were a Senator.... the neighbor would be moving HIS house....
Like when they find a little sucker trash fish people have been trying to get rid of for decades and suddenly they shut down irrigation water to farms that depend on it so the suckers can spawn, like they haven't survived TRYING to kill them all those years. The farmers are threatened with losing their farms. But hey, that sucker fish, you know.... he's real important to, um, well, ah,.... he just is...
If it were decisions that fed jobs and livelihoods hinged on then you would see some serious fed concern I'd bet.
Example: Just float out a bill that all fed jobs be trimmed by 50% across the board. Take about 2 seconds for the screaming to start. It would be dead within a day. Their reasons wouldn't be that it wasn't for the good of the country. It would be pure self interest from the workers losing their jobs. Why, the selfish bastages.... just thinking about their own azzes and not the good of the country....
When it comes to making decisions regarding someone ELSE'S sacrifice, well, it's for the environment or the good of the people or some other reason, sometimes it's just something they'd like to do, a neat idea. Easy, just do it... has no effect on 99% of the people.
It's easy when it's someone else's sacrifice. Easier yet when they are thousands of miles away from it all. But just watch.... when it effects THEM personally you will see exactly how far THEY are willing to sacrifice "for the good of the country". Marches, protests.... you will see threats of violence as well. Bet money on it.
OK, off my soapbox....my apologies, missed my last on-and-on-anon meeting. This stuff just hits too close to home sometimes.
Hunters and sportsmen had best keep a keen eye out though. This time the sights are trained on some ranchers in the desert. There are those out there right now, inside the government and out, working on taking away what we have... for the simple reason they think they are right and you are wrong, they are good, you are bad. Proof, facts, rights, logic, repercussions and results of their actions.... mean nothing. When the crosshairs may swing on to hunters.... then we might have to make decisions to quit or take a stand as well. Stand by legal to the letter of the law.... or right....
Another thing that rubs me the wrong way about this is the fact the Feds will spend the resources to try to get rid of this guy while letting wild horses and burros destroy the rest of NV while giving in to the wishes of the liberal horse lovers.
midwest's Link
I started another thread....this is what I expected to come from this ordeal. Maybe it's time, even though it may end, or at least severely limit our western public land hunting.
When I start waving my arms all around when I'm talking, Coach just tells me ta shut up and sometimes throws things at me....
Have to say.... nobody on Bowsite has thrown anything at me....
...threaten to throw me off once or twice... but nothing AT me...
If I lived closer to the BLM lands in question, I would be out there in a heartbeat walking around with my bow... I would love to see the Bundy families reaction to be "trespassing" on the BLM ground. I am thinking the same as Wayne H.
Feel free to set me straight if I got it all wrong.
If you lease a house from Joe but send your payments to Frank, who cannot cash the check because he has no legal right to it, that isn't paying.
As far as the cattle go, they could eliminate every cow from Nevada and it would make an insignificant difference to the cattle market. The number of cattle that the land in the west is able to support is so small compared to other regions of the country that it is better left to the wildlife. I would also like to see them remove (shoot or otherwise) all the feral horses of public lands to allow more wildlife that was there first.
I see it all the time when a place is for sale. It will say something like 5000 deeded acres and 3000 BLM lease. That means the owner has 5000 acres and leases 3000. It doesn't mean he owns 8000 acres.
I don't necessarily agree with the govt restricting the number of cattle in a favor of a tortoise but I also don't agree with Bundy grazing his cattle for free on OUR land.
I go back and forth on which side I'm on but I always think about being locked out of govt land by ranchers here in NV on more than one occasion and being run off BLM land at gun point about 20 years ago.
In my experience many ranchers in NV are a different breed than those in other states and seem to have a sense of entitlement to OUR land which they're allowed to use for a fee. I've run across several over 35 years of running around NV and have only found a few to be hospital. Contrast that to my experience in several other western stares where I've few negative run ins.
I agree with Federal intrusion, but the Bundy issue is not the example to use as an example in order to showcase the issue.
He has no legal leg to stand on. I agree we need to do something but using Bundy as an example is not the way to do it because you're hitching your wagon to a greedy thief in my opinion.
Bigdan, that is hilarious!!!
Putin would have handled this to my satisfaction, far better than Obama.
"the stupid suffering for support of a criminal as well."
From someone who claims "the law" is everything... you seem OK with subverting and ignoring the law if you have the power to do so and no one can stop you? Interesting.
How refreshing and no irony at all from a self professed Putin fan.....
BTW, as the feds themselves present it, this isn't a criminal case, It's a civil matter. Otherwise they could obtain an arrest warrant for Bundy and go bring him in and not screw around with the cattle at all. Cuff him. Book em Danno.... his day in court, prison if convicted. Nothing is stopping them...nothing. If it was in fact a criminal case and not a civil one. But itsnot.
I'm sure you have a lawyer or three.... might consult with them about the difference....
A cowboy scare ya when your were a small r? I don't get it. A big blind spot in some folks vision, mostly because they refuse to look.
A couple issues that many obviously aren't aware of. NV is 85% federal land. 85%. "Eighty Five Percent" for the numerically challenged.
You can't swing a dead cat without dealing with the feds, who seem to have turned into fascist turtle wranglers an the behalf of kind Uncle Harry.
How much federal land in your state? You don't think that matters WRT how the land is managed? Just a little?
So you have 15% of the state left and that is divided up between state and private. Exactly how much agriculture are you going to have in NV without dealing with feds? You either work something out WRT leases or give it to the state or sell it to private or something. But It's not the Kingdom of the Fed. The residents of NV are not federal subjects.
It's not a coincidence that many of the western states (that a person doesn't think it's a distinct "society" certainly doesn't mean it's not) are upset with dealing with the federal overreach and high handed way they have dealt with the states. UT is taking action. NV, AZ, NM, WY, ID, MT, TX, etc. (CA likely doesn't count, they are just so screwed as it is...) they are all fed up with being strong armed by the feds. These states are taking action across the board. Check it out yourselves.
That the feds control what? .06% of KS... .03% in Iowa.....well I can see why those in their own little world don't see any issues with them. Because it's NEVER an issue if it doesn't effect you.
Another issue, few know about free range law in many western states. Yeah, free range laws are separate laws specific to "western culture". Imagine that.
I don't know NV free range... but in many places "trespassing" cattle, which legally these are... cannot be converted to personal property. Just because they are on your land, they are not your livestock. If you want them off, you herd them off. If you want to keep them off you put up a fence to do so. If you take possession of them as yours, well that makes you a cattle rustler. Doesn't matter if you happen to be the federal government and they are trespassing on your land. Even the feds are not (in theory anyway) above the law. They will however try to be above it nearly every time. See: IRS... NSA... ATF... Pretty much any alphabet agency you can think of....
Again, things are not as cut and dried as it seems. Bundy may be an idiot and a jerk. Neither is proof he is wrong....
You are not talking over anyone's head, you are just stoned again and think you are.
You are incorrect about the civil issue. The financial aspects are civil.
If the renter barricades himself into your house and refuses to obey a lawful order to leave, that is a crime. And also, the point where force is justified to enforce a lawful order.
It is completely cut and dried. Your failure to discern it is predictable.
Call people "stoned" all ya want. But facts over opinion aren't your strong point anyway. Bundy isn't trespassing, the cattle are. Bundy lives on his own private land. Cattle "trespassing" is a civil matter if you're wanting damages paid for the "trespassing". Good grief...
Maybe read up on the facts of the case, cuz so far you have pretty much all of them wrong. Laws as well. You seem confused about many of them.
Not confused at all.
If you don't vote then I've got no use for your opinion....
Is there anyone here who doesn't hunt on BLM or Forest Service holdings because they don't believe the Federal Government rightfully owns those lands? Didn't think so!!!!!!
go do a lil' research on EXACTLY HOW & WHEN Bundy and the feds got to this point. It was not even recently that it took place.
