Bowsite.com

So I can hike fish and hunt small game on this wilderness areas but im not allowed to hunt big game ,,, How is this legal on Federal Land . I can see this on state land but Fed land .

I spoke to WY FG they said cause I could get lost hurt while hunting big game !!!! My reply was what about if I was hiking or fishing . NO answer was given to me !!

Why hasent bow hunters got off there rumps and challenged WY in a class action ??

Of course it makes no sense and is probably exactly what it looks like: A backhanded subsidy to the outfitting industry. But, I suspect it is completely legal.

Unless the almighty dollar stops going to the state I doubt they will ever change It.

Are you REALLY trying to tell us that non-residents are more likely to get lost or hurt than residents.

You are completely out of your mind!!

DDD

Good luck, Robb

Aaron

Yes, you can do whatever else you want to do in the wilderness unguided.

Yes, it's within Wyoming's right to legislate this.

Yes, it'c chicken shit.

A good friend of mine works for WY G&F. He laughs when I hassle him about it because there is no way he is going to try to defend it under the shallow auspices of "public safety". To do so is disingenious.

It's a subsidy to the outfitters, and a perk to the residents that want to get away from NR hunters. Sorry Pete, but you're trying to put lipstick on a pig here.

I will somtimes run into others on trails. Yesterday I ran into three people at 12,000 feet in jeans shorts and t-shirts...tennis shoes near the border of the Wilderness area about an hour from the trailhead. A hunter who is willing to take on the WA is going to be WAAAAAY more prepared that the mass of tourists who hike, backpack and fish in the same areas.

You can hike, backpack and fish in WY wilderness without a guide because no way would you get lost. But hunt without a guide? No way! You might get lost!

Robb the reason no change is only a small % this affects

I have never looked it up to see if you could grouse hunt with a bow in the wilderness.

The regulation rises to a new level of ridiculous when you consider that you can go with a resident, provided they get their free slip of paper that allows them to take you. They don't have to show any qualification, other than they can breathe and sign an "X" on a sheet of paper.

Some "safety" net.

The reason it will never get changed is that the residents have no vested interest in making the push to change it. They benefit from it also.

Louis, I think its b.s. too, but it seems to be the way the people in Wyoming want it. Hire a guide or move I guess.

Good luck out there guys. Getting close.

Its a testament to how powerful a small lobby can be in a low population state.

Nick

There is no realistic logical defense of what is clearly a welfare system for guides and outfitters.

Throwing another log on the fire ... my understanding is the guide doesn't have to be a WY resident either, just a licensed guide with the state.

Right this minute there are thousands of people camping, fishing, orienteering and technical climbing in the wilderness areas of WY unguided, and somehow they manage to barely survive.

They probably have cute hippie chicks with them.

It's a government handout to guides, as is the Alaska law.

Same deal in Canada, although that's a different country, so I'm not as vested as these are my public lands.

Actually I think the later is the more dangerous and likely more fitting of a guide to get your through it safely....

Being a Wyoming native I have to admit that I take advantage of the wilderness law. On the years that I don't draw a limited quota archery elk tag I can buy a general tag, go into the wilderness and still find some good hunting without a lot of people or pressure. I'm not saying the law is right but don't really care to see it change.

Another thing is not all wilderness is created equal in WY with some having grizz to contend with. Those few areas without great numbers or no grizz tend to be smaller and would get way more pressure than they could support. If the state would leave Bridger, Cloud Peak and Popo Agie Wilderness the same or figure out a way to control the #'s without making them limited quota draw I might support it.

That is my 1 cent.

It seems some of you are referring to guides like they really have a controlling interest dealing with this law. They don't.

Being a guide is like the old carpenter vs contractor situation. The carpenter/guide does the grunt work because it pays the bills and they might even enjoy it while the contractor/outfitter makes the bigger money. I'm not saying this is wrong as the contractor/outfitter usually has more invested in the deal but there is a big difference in the two titles.

I really doubt a guide could afford to spend any of his hard earned money to lobby for the sustained closure of the wilderness to NR. Furthermore the guide can't take anyone into the wilderness legally without the umbrella of an outfitter. So before you all go bashing guides remember they are the worker bees of the hunting industry.

Thats my second cent.

Also have friends in WY but would never ask them to take me into areas of wilderness.

Vernon I don't see this as being a welfare for guides outfitters if so why am I allowed to fish without a guide ? I see this as discrimination against US citizen's that are not residents in the state of WY !!

This is Fed land not state land . The Feds can shut this down to all hunting and all traffic . If u recall this was done in AK last year I heard some outfitters ignored the temporary law !!!

First I have to overcome the draw odds, then the odds of finding a cute hippie chick in Laramie or Rawlins?

You better be living right for those two to work in your favor; and then arrow a bull? I'd suggest buying a lotto ticket before you and the cute hippie chick leave town.

:)

As I've stated before, I'm sure the law was made under the guise of protecting non-resident hunters. Of course it is a load of feces, but it isn't changing anytime soon. In my opinion, it isn't something worth worrying about though.

As Gonehuntin said "just go in there and hunt"! I have read somewhere the fine is less than $500.

But I also recognize it as a state's rights issue and it is their right to make their own rules. (Even if it is an outfitter welfare rule, which we all know it is). Don't piss on my leg and tell me it is raining.

I ran into these folks (Link) several years ago in Sheridan. (I had also encountered them the year before). They wanted me to sign a petition to advocate adding the Rock Creek Area under Wilderness Designation. I had time to research these folks. They are also pushing to add Palisades and significant portions of Bridger Teton NF for designation also. (Some area which I have hunted)

I asked if they had a stance on this issue (No NR Big game in Wilderness) The tap dance music started. The rep stated they weren't anti hunting and even had hunters in their organization. I asked how can I hunt Frank Church, Bob Marshall, and River of No Return, but somehow I am too inept to hunt wilderness in their state. She stated I could always hire an outfitter. (Obviously we had reached an impass). I told her I am a great supporter of wilderness, but I would not support expansion of one acre of wilderness within Wyoming until their organization would support the repeal of this law.

I also sent an e-mail to their executive director stating the above. Until they change their stance, take me off their mailing list.

Needless to say I still get e-mails and still tell them to pound sand.

Louis- You need to start these threads during application time. You need to chase more people away from hunting Wyoming! Everyone knows animals can read maps.

"One thing is for certain...This rule will only change as a result of legislative pressure applied by Wyoming residents."

Completely disagree with this statement for a couple reasons. First, this simply isn't going to happen. More importantly, why don't the people that are actually affected by this law take ownership in changing it? All it would take is for all N/R's to boycott hunting big game in Wyoming for one year. That loss of revenue would result in the law changing faster than it takes to read this post. Of course this isn't likely going to happen either.

For those that asked, the fine for the 1st offense is $750. Your vehicle, weapon, and any animal you are in possession of will most likely be confiscated. On the rare chance something happens that would require rescue/recovery, you will also have to pay restitution for the cost incurred.

This is Wyoming's issue to resolve, or not. It's a great deal for the outfitters. It's great deal for residents who want some uncrowded roadless areas set aside for themselves. It's not so good for NRs who want to hunt wilderness unguided, like me, for instance. But I can choose to hunt there or go somewhere else. Nobody's forcing me to hunt WY.

I'd like to see reciprocity with other states when hosting residents of the states with these types of laws. If a WY resident wants to hunt public land in any other state, he/she should be required to hire a guide. Seems fair. After all, it's for their own protection. :-)

x2

Yep it will NEVER change...all the benefits go to the Wyoming residents and they don't have any trouble getting rid of those tags.

This is never going to affect me...but just ain't right. Lots of guys want to do it on thier own or they don't have 8-10 thousand to spend after all the costs are added up.

My question is this: as a resident of AZ with max points for elk and deer in Wyoming, are the wilderness units really that much better than others? I plan on using my points in about 3-4 years and I hope to have a good, high quality hunt and DIY. Or do I need a new friend who happens to live in Wyoming and knows the wilderness areas well?

If I recall this is what helped change KS NR regulations many years ago?

Jaq, quote, "As I've suggested before- find a cute hippie chick in Laramie or Rawlins"

I know it was a joke but this doesn't satisfy the legal req as written in the regs and will get you AND the resident in trouble. If you do go with a resident, check the regs for the procedure.

Best to check the regs anyway as they have a req in some areas you have to have bear spray with you.

Douglas v. Seacoast Products, Inc., supra at 431 U. S. 284, where MR. JUSTICE MARSHALL, speaking for the Court, observed:

"A State does not stand in the same position as the owner of a private game preserve, and it is pure fantasy to talk of 'owning' wild fish, birds, or animals. Neither the States nor the Federal Government, any more than a hopeful fisherman or hunter, has title to these creatures until they are reduced to possession by skillful capture. . . .

I never said that residents would apply pressure to change the rule. I simply stated that would be the only thing that would change the rule. Obviously (as you also indicated) a total boycott from NR'S is never going to happen. If it did though, it would be the Wyoming residents who would need to find a solution to the effects of the boycott. Maybe that solution would include changing this rule? Again, the only thing that's going to change the rule is pressure applied to Wyoming legislators by Wyoming residents....and that's the way it should be IMO.

Regarding the bear spray: As far as I am aware that is only a requirement in GTNP.

And that's just it. Everyone wants to come to WY, not leave WY, which is why they can get away with whatever they want. I bet if every state in the union made the same law for wilderness areas only for WY residents hunting as NRs, it wouldn't change a thing because of the quality of hunting in WY.

If AZ said that all NRs had to hire a guide in unit 9, there'd still be a million people applying for the tag.

artichill, I'm pretty sure we agree this law is bogus. What we don't agree on is how it can be changed. I already stated how nonresidents could effect a change. It would take a sacrifice on everyone's part, but it would effect the change.

Using your argument, when my kids were deciding on what college to attend, had they decided on Arizona State University, I should have expected the residents of Arizona to put pressure on their legislature to set out of state tuition exactly the same as in state. In that case, as in this, it simply isn't going to happen.

But they aren't required to hire a private tutor for certain classes where as the resident students do not..... =D

23-2-401. Guides required; exceptions; issuance of resident guide license.

(a) No nonresident shall hunt big or trophy game animals on any designated wilderness area, as defined by federal or state law, in this state unless accompanied by a licensed professional guide or a resident guide. There shall be at least one (1) licensed professional guide or resident guide accompanying each two (2) nonresident hunters.

The commission may also specify other areas of the state, or specific big or trophy game species, for which a licensed professional or resident guide is required for nonresidents, for purposes of proper game management, protection of hunter welfare and safety, or better enforcement of game and fish laws. The commission may allow licensed guides to accompany more than two (2) hunters but no more than six (6) hunters in specific areas.

(b) Any resident possessing a valid resident big or trophy game animal license may apply for and receive a resident guide license. The resident guide license shall be issued without charge or bond by the commission, any district supervisor or resident game warden upon receipt of an affidavit from the resident stating the names and addresses of the nonresident hunters to be guided, the game to be hunted, the area to be hunted, and that the resident has not received nor will accept directly or indirectly any compensation for his services as a guide. A resident guide shall not guide more than two (2) nonresident hunters in any calendar year on any national forest, wilderness area, national game refuge, or national park, except as provided in W.S. 23-2-401, nor shall he accept any compensation or gratuity for his services.

An exchange of guide services shall not be considered compensation for the purposes of this section. The name and license number of the nonresident hunter shall be placed on the back of the resident guide license and stamped or signed by the issuer....

If you want some light reading...

"Hunter vs Hunter, The case for Discriminatory NR Hunting" :

http://tinyurl.com/n8aga25

Franzen, so I guess one needs to hook up with the hippie chick ahead of time so she can buy a wolf license and send in the affidavit. All that could happen on a summer fishing/scouting trip to Laramie, eh?

I do not agree that the law is bogus. I am not a fan of the law...at all. It is the will of the citizen's of the state of Wyoming, which means that it's not bogus...at least not in my mind's eye. Of course the outfitter's have an influence in this legislation. The non-outfitter residents of Wyoming strongly outnumber the outfitter residents of Wyoming. If the outfitters still hold more influence then the outfitters are simply more involved and influential in the legislative process.

In NM, NR's who choose to hire an outfitter can apply in a pool of NR tags separate from those NR's who choose not to (or cannot afford to) hire an outfitter. To me, this rule is similar to the Wyoming rule. As a NM resident and as President of the United Bowhunters of New Mexico, I fought tooth and nail to eliminate this rule. I wanted to see ALL NR's have an equal chance of drawing a tag whether or not that NR applicant could afford to hire an outfitter.

The outfitters fought hard against this (as expected). Many residents supported the effort, but far too many watched from the sidelines and hoped for the best. Surprisingly, the strongest opposition was from NR's (obviously those who liked the better draw odds of the outfitted pool of tags). That group furiously called and e-mailed NM state legislators. I actually had legislators who admitted to me that they knew nothing about the issue, but would support our bill simply because they were sick and tired of being "harassed" by NR's.

The bill (SB196) passed, but sadly it was amended in a way that was horrible for DIY NR hunters. The amendment came from a legislator who didn't understand the intricacies of the issue. DIY NR's got hosed! Instead of choosing to work with the RESIDENT groups working on this issue, NR's chose to contact legislators who couldn't care less about their concerns. The result has been almost tragic to DIY NR hunters.

As the President of the UBNM, I expected support from NR hunters. We didn't get it. As it turned out, that likely didn't matter too much to the legislators as NR's can't vote anyway. It did matter to the UBNM though. If NR's would have lined up to join and support our cause they could have had MUCH more (or at least more positive) influence than they had by contacting NM State legislators directly.

I am a huge fan of state's creating their own laws...regarding wildlife or anything else. I believe that's why there are 50 different states! For those who want to include the Fed's in every debate, why don't we just appoint Obama as the Governor of every State??? There are 50 separate states....let's allow them to remain separate.

Today, The UBNM is very proud to be working closely with the New Mexico Council of Outfitters and Guides (NMCOG). You may have seen the thread about the fully outfitted AZ Coues auction?? I posted that thread to help raise money for the NMCOG. Admittedly, UBNM and NMCOG have not always been in agreement. Two things are for sure though: 1. We are all NM residents (SB196 comes into play) 2. NM residents should make ALL the decisions about how NM wildlife is managed on ALL lands whether it be owned by the state, the feds, or a private individual.

How'd you know I was in Laramie three weeks ago Lou?! Haha. Most of my time was spent in the western part of the state, and I only stopped in Laramie because I had to replace the thermostat on my truck I swear!

Nothing would happen if the tourists weren't allowed in the Wilderness city. Now if you changed that to National Park, then yes Wyoming would have a problem.

Translation: I know it's bullshit but it benefits me so there.

very well said and I for one totally agree. crazy to see how many piss and moan because ANY state they don't live in has rules that benefit the residents of that state, and do not necessarily benefit a NR.

yes, it has been upheld countless times by the high court. states have full rights to TOTALLY manage the wildlife within their borders.

The pulling of federal funds to the state and closing off federal land to hunting until it is corrected is fully within the law as well.

With that said Wyoming is not "managing" Jack Squat not allowing NR to hunt big game within the wilderness boundaries.

Just stop making up all the BS excuses to justify the handout to the outfitters. Their lobby did a great job and it hugely benefits their pocketbook as well as the resident hunters. The only people it hurts is us non resident DIY hunters. And there are plenty of other areas open to us in WY.

Only about 6 weeks and you guy will all be busy hunting and then we will revisit it again in January when folks start getting their applications ready ;/)

I bet you could write off a lot of your expenses if you were a guide too? Equip, gas, supplies, truck etc.

If 15-20 bowsiters pitched in $100 a piece and formed an LLC, you could maybe do it? Write off all your hunt expenses also.

If you can't beat'm.... join'm.

If you draw a general tag you can bow hunt (with an additional purchase of a archery stamp) for better than 2 weeks. If unsuccessful you can return with the same general tag and hunt the rifle season! You just have to find the public land locations that are not designated as wilderness. My brother guided in WY for 11 years and would not join the outfitters & guides organization because it was they who had him excluded. The few times he drew a tag his boss had to guide him to be legal. I agree it's a head scratcher! Still.. I have never seen more different critters on a single day in the field than in MT. and WY.

LaGriz

I'm in. I have 15 sheep points and max deer. I'd like to have as many options available as possible.

In Iowa no outfitters Lic is needed reason I was told so they wouldn't have to cater to the outfitters asking for tags !!!

Hmmm... Now that wouldn't be a giant can of worms... Sounds like a plan straight out of the Obama play book

Shhhh... That's what they did here in CO, taking the tags out of the regular guy drawing pool and giving them to the outfitters/brokers to sell. My local State Representative told me there was no evidence they were being brokered on the open market. I asked him if he knew how to do a Google search for "Colorado landowner vouchers for sale".

I used to be pissed about the bull$h1t... until a friend moved to Jackson. So now I can hunt wilderness as long as he is with me. Never mind he is half my age, only has a few years experience in ANY western terrain, and I taught him everything he knows about elk hunting, riding horses, camping in the high country etc etc. Won't it be funny when I have to save his life one day while he is "guiding" me. lmao

Forget the wind City..... and the hot air, just HUNT. :-)

Anyone who doesn't understand why this is the way it is, and why it's not going to change (nonresident fee discrepancy and license quota) needs to read this entire ruling and series of explanations from the Tenth.

The Tenth's conclusion:

III. Conclusion We hold that Schutz has not suffered an injury sufficiently concrete to create a case or controversy relating to the Guide Statute. As for the Fee and Quota Statutes, the district court correctly ruled that they do not violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Finally, congressional enactment of HB 1268, Section 6063 makes moot Schutz's Article I, Section 8 claim. We therefore affirm the judgment of the district court.

Their website has a section entitled "Why Join B.O.W.?" Here's what they have to say:

Why Join B.O.W.

Many times the question has been asked, “Why should I belong to Bowhunters of Wyoming (B.O.W.)”, or “What will the organization B.O.W. do for me?” These are valid questions and ones which deserve good answers to anyone who might be considering spending some time and money to participate in the sport of bowhunting here in Wyoming.

First and foremost B.O.W.’s purpose is to promote the enjoyment and betterment of the sport of bowhunting. We believe this can only be accomplished by the sincere effort of those who participate. To answer what B.O.W. will do, let’s have a look at what B.O.W. has done.

B.O.W. speaks for you with the State Legislature and the Game and Fish Department. We have sponsored Legislation to 1) do away with the four separate archery licenses, we now buy only one. 2) allow bird hunting including trophy with a bow. 3) provide pre-season archery hunting (at one point we had lost them), and 4) elevate the Black Bear to trophy game status and take the bear tag off the elk license. Additionally, B.O.W. helped convince the governor to veto a bill which would have allowed the use of muzzle loaders during archery pre-seasons.

Working with the Game and Fish Department, we have promoted 1) longer seasons (15 to 30 days in most areas, where it was originally 10 days), 2) some archery only licenses, which allows you to hunt longer, and 3) adjust season dates so that all species don’t have to be hunted in the same time frame.

During the past several years B.O.W. has donated money to the Game and Fish Department for different projects including windmill repair, spring developments, whitetail poaching decoy, goose nesting structures, pitting of elk pastures, habitat burning projects, and more.

B.O.W. provided the initial funding and support to bring the International Bowhunter Education Program (I.B.E.P.) to Wyoming. We are currently working with the Game & Fish Department to make the I.B.E.P. program mandatory for anyone bowhunting in Wyoming.

We are the only organization in the state that keeps big game records and have published the first record book (two editions) for Wyoming Bowhunters. B.O.W. members have grouped together and taken on six Adopt-A-Highway program areas across the state.

Communication between bowhunters is provided through our newsletter, which is published quarterly. Anytime other important issues come up, postcards or letters are sent to all members to inform them of the issues and where to make their comments. With our Affiliate Club Membership, this is another way to keep more bowhunters informed of the issues through their local clubs and also provides another avenue for local club liability insurance.

Winter banquets, summer jamborees, and meetings give members an opportunity to socialize and discuss concerns pertaining to bowhunting. Each year we have big game awards, a photo contest, a guest speaker, manufacturer booths, and much more at our winter meeting. The summer jamboree is family oriented and provides fun for all ages with outdoor animal rounds, fun shoots, contests, and refreshments.

Next time you hear these questions, why not ask, “Do you really enjoy bowhunting? Especially in Wyoming? Are you anxious to go hunting in those early archery seasons? Know who represents the bowhunter’s voice in Wyoming?” Bowhunters of Wyoming is a respected organization dedicated to the promotion and education of bowhunting and bowhunters, and to wildlife conservation. Support an organization that supports YOU! There is still a lot to do!

We hope we have provided you with answers to some of your questions. We realize there is always room for improvement and that comes about through your participation. If you would like more information about BOWHUNTERS OF WYOMING, you can contact our Secretary/Treasurer at the address listed below.

When you become a member of B.O.W., you gain an active interest in supporting bowhunting and bowhunting laws by receiving B.O.W. voting rights, a quarterly newsletter delivered to your residence, window decal, and a coupon for one year of Bowhunter Magazine for a reduced rate.

CONSIDER YOUR BOWHUNTING FUTURE………

Do like Jaquomo.... go to Laramie and hire a cute resident to hold your hand while you hunt the wilderness areas. lmao

I wonder how many guys reading this spend more on a merino shirt in a year than supporting the organizations that speak for sportsmen?

The law is clearly a hand out to outfitters. If I was a Wy resident I wouldnt want to see the law changed either.

Ed

As far as I can tell, this thread is about NR's wanting to see a legislative change. B.O.W.'s mission statement doesn't have to directly mention the exact issue we are discussing in order to earn relevance in the thread. Many on here see a problem with the wilderness rule in Wyoming. I am simply attempting to offer a suggestion that I believe is more realistic and might be more effective than some ideas which have been mentioned previously.

Teeton,

I have no idea what B.O.W.'s stance on this issue is, or if they even have a formal stance? I know nothing about this org except what I read on their website. Like Mule Power, I didn't find any mention of the outfitter's wilderness law. Regardless of their position, it could likely be influenced by a majority of their members which brings me to cityhunter's comment.

cityhunter,

I would also assume that the majority of B.O.W. members are residents of Wyoming. With that said, their website mentions a membership base of 350+. To me that indicates that if a mere 400 NR's joined the org then NR's would represent the majority of this org's entire membership.

Obviously, NR's making up the majority of the membership does not mean that the org will automatically cater to the desires of NR's at the detriment of Wyoming residents. Even so, if enough NR's support this organization I would think that the investment would earn them a voice in Wyoming that is far more powerful and influential than NR DIY hunters trying to make legislative changes by doing it themselves.

To all who want to see this rule changed,

The self-proclaimed purpose of B.O.W. is, "First and foremost B.O.W.’s purpose is to promote the enjoyment and betterment of the sport of bowhunting. We believe this can only be accomplished by the sincere effort of those who participate."

There you have it. Don't just send in the $25 and hope for the best. Get involved to whatever extent you are able. Worst case scenario, you'll probably make some new friends who are Wyoming residents, avid bowhunters and would love to accompany you on a future wilderness adventure.

Thanks

I have no problem with outfitters providing a service to those who want it, but I'm completely against outfitter preferences for licensing (like in NM) and against guide requirements.

Maybe Mn should pass a law that all non residents should have a guide when fishing Mille Lacs, Rainy, Lake of the woods, Leach etc. After all its in there best interest to keep them safe on these bigger bodies of water.

In my younger years I guided plenty of people from Ia on Ottertail lake. After a day with me they knew how to fish the lake on there own. But they had the choice to learn it on there own as well.

My major problem with this issue is that it allows outfitters to not have to compete with the DIY hunters which allows them to charge crazy prices to hunt on land that is Federally owned. The average cost from the 10 outfitters I looked up was between 4500-7500 dollars for 5-7 days hunts. Those types of prices cut a lot of people out of the picture which is not good for hunting overall.

And... to answer the 2nd question: Because the residents don't all give a hoot about outfitters, are generally nice people, and many have friends from out of state and/or from out of state themselves. The residents I know think the law is hogwash.

A lot of the land in WY that holds sheep and goats is wilderness, and it also holds elk and deer. So the outfitters control a lot of the sheep and goat hunting in Wyoming. That's one reason I apply in 7 states for those licenses, but NOT in Wyoming. I refuse to play their stupid game.

Boycott the state...that will get them to act and abolish that welfare.

What I'd love to see is Colorado limit non-residents to 10% of the tags (or less) like everyone else does.

"Boycott the state...that will get them to act and abolish that welfare."

Good luck with that boycott. Are you envisioning a day when Wyoming Fish and Game is scratching their heads after the draw saying, "What ever are we going to do with all of these left over NR tags that no one applied for?"

Unless that day comes (of course it never...NEVER EVER will) nobody cares if you Boycott Wyoming. The only person on the planet affected by your boycott is you. If it makes you feel better about things then I guess it's a great tactic to use to cope with your dissatisfaction of Wyoming rules.

WYelkhunter,

"The people that are against this law need to forget about it being Federal land, That fact has absolutely no bearing on anything."

100% SPOT ON! For those who do not understand the Pubic Trust Doctrine, the attached link is to a Bowsite discussion from back in 2011. In the discussion, Randy Newberg (Big Fin) provides an excellent and comprehensive "Cliff Note's" version of the Public Trust Doctrine. I strongly suggest any who continue to argue this Federal land "card" read this post by one of this Country's most well respected sportsmen.

"As of March 2012, out of the 2.27 billion acres in the country, about 28% of the total was owned by the Federal government according to the Interior Department.[2] The United States Supreme Court has upheld the broad powers of the federal government to deal with federal lands, for example having unanimously held in Kleppe v. New Mexico[3] that "the complete power that Congress has over federal lands under this clause necessarily includes the power to regulate and protect wildlife living there, state law notwithstanding".[1]

If a federal law was passed that said that states could not require the use of an outfitter on federal land, then that law would trump any state law. If the federal government wanted to shut down all hunting on federal grounds-- they could do that as well. While I would not like to see the federal government get involved in managing wildlife in individual states, I would like to remind you that Wyoming does not ultimately have the last say in what happens on Federal lands within their state boundaries. States are not allowed to do whatever they want on federal land, they are allowed to do what the Federal government permits them to do, in this case the federal government permits them to manage the lands within the wilderness boundaries.

I love Big Fins views and show, but his Public Trust Doctrine only applies to Wyoming's ability to manage their residents and state's lands without oversight from the federal government. If push came to shove ( which it never will) the federal government could easily make this law go away on federal lands....will they?...no.

I think what really stinks is that Wyoming hides behind this excuse that its for the safety of hunters and yet they permit hikers, fisherman, etc to go unattended throughout the wilderness. If you want to create a benefit for residents and outfitters, just say so. Don't hide behind this fictitious cause for safety...its bologna. Now why are guys so passionate about this, because they love to hunt on their own in the most beautiful raw places this country has to offer and they don't want to have to pay thousands of dollars for a chaperone.

I will be leaving in 4 weeks to head to your beautiful state of New Mexico to chase elk and I will be hunting in a wilderness area....after ten days I will head up to Colorado and hunt in another wilderness area. Do I need to hire an outfitter in these two states....nope! Do I wish that I was already there instead of arguing about a law that probably won't affect me...Yep!

I also don't apply for sheep/goat in WY because of the rule.

I see your point(s) arctichill, but it still doesn't make it right.

Yes, it's pretty clear that WY can do this and get away with it. It's pretty clear that a NR boycott of WY would never happen. It's pretty clear that there is little incentive for the people who have the ability to change this, to actually change this.

That doesn't mean that it's a not a stupid law that ought to be changed (along with AK's).

And I don't buy the "well if we let every Tom, Dick, and Harry in there, think of what that'd do for things like the Dall..."

Nonsense. They'd just have to be managed just like we manage every other animal in every other state: with proper limits on tags/seasons.

The Federal Land deal has been argued to death here on Bowsite, in front of the Supreme Court and everywhere in between.

I'm going to do my best to end my contribution to this discussion here.

PS- Ryan, sounds like you've got an awesome autumn lined up. I'll be chasing elk in 16b during 3rd season. Wish you tons of luck. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.