Whitetail Properties "Center Punch"
Whitetail Deer
I watched the new episode of Whitetail Properties tonight and Dan Perez is advocating a center punch shot, where you basically aim for the liver. He's saying that it's the best shot for his setup, 2" 3 blade expandables with decent KE. Talks about all his experience tracking over 1000 animals and says that it's the most lethal shot.
Personally, I don't agree with this. I see a lack of respect for the animal, and it also encourages novice bowhunters to use this as their point of aim, among other reasons. Ive trailed many gutshot deer and have seen them walking under labor with guts hanging out, but still a long way from death. This was actually one of the few shows I enjoyed watching, but I definitely lost some respect for this guy after watching it. Thoughts?
If that is what he is advocating (on public TV or in private) ...he needs to look in the mirror after looking up the definition of "steward leadership."
Mark
Yeah, felt a bit sour to me as well. But then again, i watched him shoot one facing almost dead on, from a tree stand down through the throat patch one time. Killed both deer, but not a shot im taking.
Despite my screen name, which references the heart, please don't confuse me with this goober!
Despite my screen name, which references the heart, please don't confuse me with this goober!
Maybe we just found the real TBM?
DP's really getting ripped over at Archery Talk....
Will probably never see the show. It sounds like just one more example of "if you have the money/backing" ANYONE can get on the air.
The liver is not that big of a target compared to the heart/lung area. Why not shoot for the largest kill shot?
Didn't see the show, but it's kind of surprising. Dan's a very accomplished whitetail hunter, and was long before he started the company and got on the show.
No clue.
We've all seen the shows, though, where a guy has clearly hit a deer way back and he yells, "Perfect double-lung shot!"
I had a bowhunter tell me he was actually aiming for the buck's spine at Camp Ripley at 35 yards.
And even on Bowsite, people very seldom shoot over an animal. It always ducks the string...even carp! (Ok maybe not fish.) Some guys have called "deflected" when they were shooting across open air.
Bottom line, in many cases, people don't hit where they wanted to, and it's never their fault.
I haven't seen Dan's show in question. Maybe he was talking about quartering away animals, when you'd often aim for the center. To do so on a broadside animal is asking for trouble if you hit a few inches back.
Also, liver hits vary greatly. Hunt much and you'll have a deer trot of 60 yards from a liver hit and die right away. The next liver hit may live 12 hours and walk six miles if you jump it.
Writer - You should see the show, surprised the heck out of me. He wasn't talking about any certain shot, quartering away or otherwise. I hunt fairly close to him up in Pike and have never heard anything negative about the guy, and he does seem accomplished. Definitely a shocker.
I saw it too. Liver, my butt, he hit that deer far back and low. Plus it was angled towards him.
Guess those expandables work great on gut shots!!
Bill V.
After watching the show last night, I felt center punched. His reasoning left me dumbfounded.
says he aims for the liver because if he misses forward he gets lungs, if he misses back hes not afraid to get intestines. says hes afraid of the shoulder. also says he has no idea how to measure how an animal suffers, proudly finds the buck the next day. the buck was calmly feeding at 34y slightly 1/4 to him. talks about laying his bow down and makes sure to cover the entrance hole. his actual shot was all guts and looks to exit just in front of the right rear leg he deserves all the flak promoting this. his FB page is also going up in flames
Sounds like his expandables have penetration issues. I feel his guidance is wrong and unethical.
Tony
Yea I saw the FB stuff and the talk on AT, this guy deserves all the heck he's catching. I know I don't want my kids to watch that show and get any wrong ideas bout where to aim lol!
I havent seen the show however his comments on FB are very clear. He aims for the liver/rear lung area with a large cut mechanical.
If he is off the mark to the back of the deer. Then he feels the large cut will put down an animal quicker if shot thru the guts.
If he is off his mark to the front. Then he is in lungs more.
I understand the excitement during a shot all to well but if he is afraid of missing his mark that badly then I feel he needs more practice or to calm the nerves....
His FB is a mess. His and the producer's attempts at clarification are laughable. Why not just say "crap, hit that one too far back" Instead they go about advocating poor shot placement.
gut shots suck...period
I saw it too. I think he was just trying to justify a bad shot so they could show the footage.
"I think he was just trying to justify a bad shot so they could show the footage."
That would be my bet too.
The line that got me was so the deer "doesnt suffer more than it should". Should? Wrong word, brother. Its not live tv, its edited, how do u say that and it doesnt sound awful to someone in the room? Kinda mistakes in speaking that hurt hunting in my opinion. And we all make mistakes, man up, take it on ur shoulders instead of trying to talk ur way out
Just another reason not to watch that garbage on TV they call hunting.
I saw the show and he actually called out the center punch shot BEFORE he took the shot. He knew all along that is where he was going to shoot. This was NOT an example of just hitting too far back and covering for it after the fact. The arrow hit right where he was intentionally aiming. Personally, I like to hit them where it kills the animal as quick as possible without spoiling any meat. I am a meet hunter, not a rack hunter so a gut shot, are you kidding????? Wasting those tenderloins.
Saw the show as well. Very disappointing to see someone promote a shot like that.
If you say and think something long enough it will become reality... -For instance, I just saw a unicorn fly by my window.
I saw it too...when they were talking about "re-thinking" your aiming points I thought they were going to mimic BB's advise on shooting straight up the leg instead of the crease.
This totally shocked me...what an ass for promoting this on national TV.
"all his experience tracking over 1000 animals"
Well, if he was shooting for double lung, there would be a lot less tracking and a lot more watching deer die near your stand.
I probably only track 15% of my deer. the rest I watch die within 30-40 yards of my stand.
Now I remember why I don't watch any of the hunting shows.
"With a big cut broadhead and hunting in the Mid West where you can see forever and your shots are usually farther, I can agree with what he says. Here in the South where shots are close and you can't see very far, I don't know if what he says is always the best bet. The key is the diameter of broadhead and the ability to shoot through the animal."
The above post was copied from a Georgia forum and illustrates the reason why we can't allow celebrity hunters to get away with promoting such irresponsible shots. People like the above poster are not intelligent enough to see through the bull.
This was posted on the Whitetail Properties TV site yesterday. I sounds a little different than what he said on the show.
Years ago "didnt have the kinetic energy"...what?
I stopped right there
I didn't see the show and I just glanced at his FB page so I'm not an expert by any means but I saw on his FB page where he said he aims for the back half of the lung instead of tucking it in behind the shoulder. That way if he misses one way it's liver and if he misses the other way it's lung and heart. He said he doesn't aim for liver. At least that's what he said on FB.
I agree with him. I have seen a ton of guys hit deer in the shoulder and not recover them. Not on TV or whatever, in person, by guys I hunt with. When we practice shooting it's apparent why. There is this common theme of guys trying to tuck shots as close behind the shoulder as they possibly can. That translates to shoulder hits while hunting. I back off the shoulder a little bit and it gives me a bit of room for error.
This is just common sense to me. And Dan also apparently. What's wrong with the rest of you?
He should have never said that he knows he was NOT aiming for the liver no one does!
He spend 1/2 the show trying to explain the shot, which was so far back he may have hit the femoral artery on the exit. I'm not sure how the deer didn't go further than he claimed. The entire scenario and explanation was strange. I shot a big bodied buck in the shoulder last year with a recurve. Arrow stuck in the offside shoulder, he ran 40 yards & tipped. If there's anything I'm avoiding it's the guts. I guess if you've got two days to track, a tracking dog, private land, & you don't care about the meat, then a gut shot isn't a bad shot.
Hard to argue about the link Heritage posted.
He was talking about more KE in his endorsement of extra-wide cutting diameter heads. It does take more energy to force a wide expandable through an animal than a smaller COC head, I think.
We've had deer survive shoulder shots, don't think so with gut shots.
I thought there was an awful lot of blood spray from the exit, around or from the far hip. So artery was my thought at first.
As far as the big cut expandables, i have used rockets on 28 of my 30 bow killed deer. I believe that the guys that are down on them probably have reason to be and thats cool. As for my experience, i have killed close to a dozen deer with buckblasters, which is rockets 2-3/4" expandable and largest cut. Each deer i have shot with them resulted in a pass thru unless i angled into the far shoulder. They dont go far. It is WAY more cut than u need, but my opinion is if u can push it, use it because that extra cut can be the difference of recovering a deer when u make a mistake versus losing it. Keyword could. I shoot 70 lbs, 274 fps, so im not shooting near the KE that some guys do. Given, our deer here in PA are not as big as a lot of other states, but ive killed two mature illinois bucks with them as well. Great penetration, fantastic blood trails and quick harvests. I now shoot the 4 blade mini blaster that is 1-3/4" cut and has given me great penetration as well. Though i am a believer in the broadheads i shoot, i absolutely do not buy into the theory that your effective shot placement is from the back of the lungs to the front of the hip. Its just NOT ethical to shoot for the guts because u know they will die....eventually. Please dont take it as me saying the broadheads i use as being the only or best. I have not shot all kinds of broadheads, i started with rockets and it was never broke, so i didnt try to fix it(other than the 2 times i shot deer with rage, and the last two i will ever shoot at with rage). I have never hunted animals bigger than an illinois whitetail. I am merely just standing up with for those of us who do use them and prefer them. But i certainly do not agree with dan perez on this one.
That is the true definition of my hamblaster...the original hamblaster which it an alternative to shooting tight to the shoulder on quartering to shots and also the alternative to the big Dan in front of the shoulder shot. So much can go wrong on here. First ,you are probably not taking the quartering to shot unless the deer has already spotted you or smelt you and us fixing to haul tail. My hamblaster is the best option for this scenerio because the ham is the last thing to move when a deer jumps the string, has lots of veins and arteries so blood is easy to follow and when quartering will be combined with stomach and intestines. You need to shoot high # and a big really good penetration Broadhead that is tough...than blast away. Good job Dan...now the tv guys are following me.
Smelt is a small fish I think.
R hale, u kill me sometimes
Someone please tell Mr. Perez to aim for the green dot.... Good god, what a dope!
Writer, unfortunately, the link posted is not what was on the show the other night... I was disgusted as well and almost jumped on here to make a thread similar to this one as soon as I saw it. If he meant to say what he said in the link provided, he used some very poor words to express that on the show.
Still haven't found the entire original clip, but this clip on fb kind of shows you the road he was heading down:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152319102823510&set=vb.62949373509&type=2&theater
Here's a comment made during the original clip: "Yesterdays archers shot placement was restricted by their equipment, the 12 ring was their only choice for successful recoveries.... However with today's equipment... the perfect double lung shot is great, but can be risky. ITS KNOWN AS CENTER PUNCH! Simply put, center punch will secure recovery!
just another deer porn self appointed expert trying to justify another piss poor shot taken totally because of the greed to kill another deer on film.
its all about $$$$$$ and has nothing to do with the sport or the ethics of it all.
I was once proud to tell people I was a "serious" bowhunter ....... now days I'm almost ashamed to even bring it up because most people think what they see on the deer porn channel is what ALL bowhunters do .
Fact is, most TV guys have to or need to kill big deer to stay on TV and be relevant. Meat is not of high priority to them. If there is any salvageable meat they will more than likely donate it anyway. They very commonly look the next day and generally when the sun is way up for better filming.
I've always wondered what those deer smelled like when they found them. Probably like the dumpster in the back of a Taco Bell.
Didn't watch that show and I'm not really a fan of it at all. Its sad how far money, endorsements, and fame have taken some people away from ethics and better judgement.
Nick
Dan should have just kept his mouth shut on this. If he believes what he is saying, he should just shut up and hopefully he is a good tracker. He should absolutely NEVER promote what he believes as far as shot selection is concerned IMO. I'm sure he is a good guy and a good hunter, but he is not doing hunters a favor here, especially young or inexperienced guys.
There is a retraction/clarification over on AT.
Dan stated "We did a horrible job of conveying what we were trying to say, and that is that the back lung lobe is the safest shot a bowhunter can make because it is the furthest from the shoulder. My shot sliced though that deer's liver and the liver was not my intended target but the message that we did a very poor job delivering was, if your point of aim is the rear lung lobe you have a greater margin for error. My hunt was supposed to be the case in point. If my arrow would have struck the deer 3 or 4 inches to the left It would have passed though the front lung lobe, but my shot was to the right of the back lung lobe so my arrow passed through the liver. I did not aim for the liver or intend to impact the liver. But i would rather track a liver shot deer that a shoulder hit deer. We do Not advocate gut shots ever. But I can understand why someone people would think that since that area was shaded on the animated deer."
Sounds like Dan is doing a little bit of CYA damage control now.
"I saw the show and he actually called out the center punch shot BEFORE he took the shot. He knew all along that is where he was going to shoot. This was NOT an example of just hitting too far back and covering for it after the fact. The arrow hit right where he was intentionally aiming."
StrutNut I haven't seen the show but if you've guided TV crews, and I have guided a couple, you would know they don't film anything before the kill. In all likely hood he killed the deer then filmed himself calling the shot. These guys film their shots of their products, all the wispering, the victory dance, even the initial greeting when the arrive at camp, after the deer is harvested. After they have filmed all the bs, they let tge editor work his magic. This is no more than a poor attempt to make a bad shot look good
I'm sorry but, that shot looked like it was way back and not near the liver
Bill v
This is one reason that I do not watch the majority of these shows. They mostly don't give a damn about the meat, and that , is sacrilige to me. I have only lost two deer in my life, one gut shot, and the other a good shot at last light. It was so dark, and me in a pop up, I couldn't see which direction she went. Found her in five minutes the next morning and had walked within 20 feet of her three times the night I shot her ( very thick cover ) . Since then, I will not shoot that late no matter what ! I value the meat way above the antlers, and the " horn porn " ain't for me.
Then he Brags he has killed over 400 deer with a bow??..wow.. you would think after 350 or so he would have grown tired of getting deer shot here ..LOL..
I don't buy the 400 bow killed deer BS anymore then that is the target he nailed on this kill..
It is a big part of why hunting has been diminished to what it is today.....not only do you have this book endorsing his gut shot...but he then Brags he knows what he is doing as he killed over 400 deer with a bow..
How many deer did he stick in the shoulder and loose with his expandable heads from his sponsor??
Shoot a fixed... With today's bow/arrow combos and kinetic energy... There is not much other than the small socket of the shoulder that will stop a arrow from getting both lungs..unless you like looking for your deer all night or on the neighbors property..
If I owned that network.. I'd cancel that show off my network.... period
I thought he said he killed 400, not necessarily bow killed. I could be wrong. Still doesnt make him right
It's so sad and gross what some will do to promote themselves and "must have" products. Unfortunately, this is happening while the bowhunting community is STARVING for leadership (and so is our country). I hope we see the tide turn and these clowns start going away. It would be cool to start seeing shows depicting average hunters "promoting" wind direction and stand approach along with ethical shot selection. How cool would it be to see Roger Raglin actually field dressing a deer. I wonder if he or Lee and Tiffany or Jackie Bushman have ever gutted a deer?
Interesting that someone with the handle of "Antler Whore," is lecturing on us on the ills of the current state of deer hunting in America, huh?
How many of our current problems go back to an addiction to big antlers?
Kill numbers do seem to add up faster for some than others. Years ago, during a phone interview, one TV guy said he had 27 Pope & Young bucks. His cameraman, a good friend of mine, could only think of 7 or 8 and guaranteed me it was less than 10.
Jerry Simmons killed over 400 and he was a killing machine. I tell you what you have to do to lay em down at that pace. You almost have to hunt and live in a state like Alabama that has the liberal limits...plus have the fortune to get hooked up with landowners who have an overpopulation problem. Then, on the bad days you still won't kill anything so on the good days you have to kill 2 or 3 on those days so you basically need an out for the meat...people you can take an undressed deer to and give them so you can get back up and he tree and kill again. It's not glamorous to kill like that...it's not fun...it's work. I have had years like that...19 in one season. You get tired of dragging them. 10 is a good number...a nice pace. Hard to keep a pace like that if you process all of my hem yourself.
some guys use "donating the meat" as an excuse to satisfy their bloodthirst........... 8^(
Who wants to even kill that many deer? That's a lot of work man! I think the last few posters nailed it; it's not about killing. That's why it's called hunting. Roger Rothaar said it best, "I don't hunt animals to kill them, I kill animals because I hunt them".
What is the point in all the killing? Take what u can eat and feed family try for a decent male of the species and have fun. No respect for the "numbers " guys. Let's not let hunting lose it's true meaning. Please
Your right Jack, we don't need to turn our aggression on the deer. Let's save it for swine !
I seen the show today,and it was unreal.He hit the deer too far back,and low.He tried to justify it by saying he didn't have enough time.He shot it in the afternoon,and let it go until the next morning,no thanks.I lost any respect I had for him,it was pure gut.We have all made bad shots,but don't try to con me,and say that was where you were aiming.John Deer should be ashamed.
The only reason I can fathom for the numbers killing is those with ag tags issued by the state due to crop damage. There again, perhaps bring in some less fortunate and kids to do some of the killing.
keep your left hand open, raise arm up and over head,lower behind head, start slapping between your shoulder blades, now make a fist with right hand and raise arm to shoulder level, rapidly bring closed fist toward chest, hitting chest sharply....
there's your "Center Punch"
how do these guys find time to draw a bow?
need a kill, to keep show on and sell those whitetail properties
