My friends found the corner pin and crossed at the pin where public ground touches corner points with public ground. There is no law stating it is legal or illegal to do so. What was said above about how wardens and county law enforcement deals with it is pretty accurate.
TO make a long story a little less long the Outfitter that thought he had this piece of public land hijacked caught my friends packing a bull elk out and harassed the hell out of them then called the warden and the sheriff. The outfitter and his wife spun all sorts of lies and the law enforcement checked it all out and several hours later found no foul. The sheriff said my friends crossed at the corner but obviously had no intention of hunting on the private land. The outfitter was pissed as hell that the local law didn't throw the book at these outsiders.
The Warden threw the outfitter a bone and cited the hunter that killed the bull for not totally getting all the paper notched out for the date killed on the permit. The number was notched out but their was a little paper still remaining between the lines where he notched out the number for the date(total reach, technicality bullshit deal) but the outfitter was throwing such a fit that the warden obviously felt he needed to appease him a little to calm the situation down. The meat was bound to spoil so the hunter didn't argue it long and just took the elk and left.
One of the hunters was a 15 year Navy Pilot and filed a formal complaint with the Wyoming outfitters Association. After not interviewing or asking any of them any questions the Wyoming Outfitters Association said they investigated and found no foul by the outfitter who I believe was a past president. If my friends had not been super tolerant of the harassment there would have been a major all out fight in the field that day.
The law enforcement intimated that they had been through this before with this outfitter and they obviously didn't like his methods. They told my friends they would be better off and have a better hunt if they steered clear of the outfitter. This outfitter knew that even if he didn't get the hunters written up for anything major he would still run them off by the harassment of the situation.
Something definitely needs to be done about the hijacking of our public lands by bad acting private landowners and outfitters. Someone is going to get hurt bad over this stuff.
Yes or no??? Ed
It would be great if folks could get a Wyo law passed that says you can cross a corner. It would open up soo much "public" land to the public.
I own land that joins public hunting and it is no picnic.,
TBM,
Your southern trespassing ways and lack of respect for property lines will bring you to a bad end out west. If you ever make it.
At the very least, you'll have some expensive legal bills and a vacation trip or two back to CO for your trial.
Between Gillette and Buffalo there is a section of blm that is landlocked. A ranch has a section of road thru their property that is a county maintained road thus making it public by Wyoming's definition but there is no trespassing signs on the two hundred yard stretch shutting down any outside public hunting on said blm. The ranch has his property outfitted which basically includes thousands of acres of blm.
Game and fish know all to well about this but turn a blind eye and say there is nothing they can do--I call BS.
Another instance a ranch near glenrock had state public land posted NO TRESSPASSING. I contacted the ranch and asked if there was a recent land swap and he said NO.This ranch also was outfitted. A short conversation with the nice game warden and the rancher got an ear full from him and was told to take the signs down.
Sometimes it makes a difference to ask questions instead of accepting what some local is telling you.
Ranchers and outfitters HATE gps with Wyoming maps installed. Best money I ever spent.
Ditto that.
Last season I reported an outfitter who had HUGE signs at cattle guards entering "his" ranch. Except I figured out that the road actually went another 1.5 miles through BLM and the way the BLM was laid out, I could legally get within pissing distance of the ranch house where his hunters stayed. I could hunt many of the same waterholes they were paying to hunt.
The next day after I reported him, the signs were gone.
Another point is that most of the land in question seems to be federal where Resident hunters are fine with NR being shut out or drastically limited.
Lots of things to consider here.
The grind is Shut me out of what you own (I have NO issue with private property)Shut me out of what you do NOT own I have a problem with that as in public land.
Seems your issue is with trespassers-prosecute them.
I am only taking issue with owners and outfitters bending things to their well being. There is a lot of it going on here in Wyoming.
Who cares if it becomes overhunted. The Game and Fish Department can control this by the number of tags they give out if it becomes a problem. And, the access is NOT free. Our tax dollars already pay for this public land. We just can't use much of it right now, which is absurd.
I do get your point about the double standard with nonresidents being shut out of certain public land. That's equally as ridiculous, but has been discussed recently.
I really do not have a position or issue on this. I just ask questions that come to mind. I do find some humor in resident hunters being excluded on federal land they want NR's excluded from.
If so, THAT'S JUST DUMB
That is EXACTLY what is being discussed.
Some states it is clearly stated as illegal; others it's more gray area.
As mentioned, it was tested in court and the LO lost. However, because of where it was tried, the court ruling only set precedent in that county, not state wide.
Your "bird in the hand" in WY is that the Game dept uses and pushes the huntinggps map sd cards. If you plan on jumping a corner, a 5 minute phone call to the county DA's office will probably be a worthwhile endeavor.
Whats funny is there are cattle gates all over this BLM most of the time open. I like to shut them so he has to get out and open them when he does his daily recon of "his BLM".
This guy I deal with sound like he"s cut from the same clothe as the guy in WY. Owns a gazillion acres and still wants more. Sad thing is I've dealt with 3 gernerations now and theyre all a-holes and all wear the same stupid black cowboy hat.
Yes; we are talking about going on legally accessible public land and coming to that kind of a corner where another corner piece of public land meets it and the other two are private property. Some states have actual laws in place preventing you from stepping from one to the other even though you are not setting foot on the private property next to it. Another member mentioned that he thought Wyoming has a law forbidding it and that is incorrect. Wyoming has no law one way or the other and that's why a guy that got a ticket from the G&F a few years ago won the case in court. Following that decision the G&F instructed it's GWs not to issue any more trespassing tickets that involve corner jumping, as it is called. Even with that ruling and loss in court their website still has a little statement in it that says not to do it, but makes no mention that there is no law against it. However, depending on the county you are hunting, the County Sheriff may issue tickets if they know the County Prosecutor will back them up. Then a person would end up spending a lot of money to win a case in court that could probably be won based on the previous ruling in favor of the hunter. There aren't many people with that kind of time and money that would press the issue, so the landowners and outfitters use that to their full advantage and it sucks!
I would bet money the length of road marked as private property being described in an earlier post between Gillette and Buffalo is the short stretch going across Beaver Creek that is publicly maintained and yet the rancher has it posted. It effectively landlocks a huge amount of BLM land on the south side of the creek and also makes it impossible to get to the legal lands on the north side from that direction. So many trespassing tickets have been issued on that stretch of road that the G&F now has a caution statement on their website that anyone trying to acccess the WIHA land on the north side of the creek must do it from the north side coming down from the Schoonover Rd. or the Buffalo Cut Across Rd. to avoid trespassing charges. IMHO the local rancher muct have some connections somewhere because if that section of road through his property is being maintained at public expense, which it is, then the public should have full rights to use it. This is yet another example how citizens are getting screwed out of using lands that we, as Federal taxpayers, own!
Now all that land is going to go the a government agency know as BLM.. How many think in this year 2014 that laws to stop corner jumping would be passed or even brought up?? Ed
My understanding is that it involves airspace above the property boundary, and there have been precedents set in various court cases. The question is whether local LE wants to deal with it. If they are tight with the rancher, as many are, they'll make YOU spend the money to defend yourself if you choose not to accept the penalty.
Where I hunt, the ability to corner-jump would get me into some sweet high-dollar elk hunting properties.
Elk hunted my favorite spot and just shot a bull. I was sitting there eating an apple and out pops ranchers son with a bow. Of course he starts giving me shit as you can't hunt elk there in the AM because you must come from below which just happens to be private and that I happen to be right on the property line (BS). Little does he know or want to know, east facing slope, wind flying up at the first hint of sun.
Anyways, I was hoping to god he wouldnt look down as I was sitting at the head of the blood trail and can just imagine how it would have went from there. So I pack the bull out through an old crappy gate 3 miles to the truck when the bull fell within a 1/4 mile of a state highway. Remember that gate.
Fast forward same year,same spot, but first rifle with my brother. We hike in and are just about to the spot I killed my elk and here comes a truck flying. The guy puts it in park and the old man gets out yelling etc goes through that same downed gate, trips, falls, and now he's tangled up in the fence irate and screaming. My first initial thought was to stomp his ass right then and there while he was tangled. Out comes his son and he starts in screaming about tresspassing, ilegal entry etc. and then how I didn't help is dad up. I lost it, told him the flipping gates been down since september and I was about ready to kick both their asses to make it short.
Funny thing, we walk 50 yards and right below where all this yelling took place, i'm talking yards is about a 260 6 point. He's on the ground no more than 10 minutes after all this.
I've had so many run ins with this owner and his BS over the years you'd think he would remember me but it's always the same. I keep telling myself I need the sheriff and DOW on speed dial. Enough is enough.
DL's Link
- You can't physically be in two places at once - so I jumped, but never touched your land or air space because I was over the public land all the time.
:-)
Where ow where has common sense gone. Flip it around and tell the landowner standing on that piece that he's on public land!
This outfitter is hijacking public land based on a grey area. You can bet he is doing what he can to bring the law officers around to his way of thinking for the next encounter with DIY hunters. That way he can have this land is no longer public but free land to add to his lease acreage. The thing that really frosts me is that the outfitters T.V.show tries to portray them as all american protectors of the hunting heritage when they are exactly the opposite. Doing this IMO is just morally wrong.
But money makes people justify and do bad things. Personally I would have like to have seen one of my friends tear him to ribbons.
Last fall, three guys were arrested and spent the night in jail for corner jumping, and were charged with trespassing with the intent to hunt, as well as assault charges for making threats. After they bonded out, they had to return to Colorado this summer, where they pleaded guilty. If they wouldn't of been rude and acting like smart asses, they would of just gotten written warnings, but they thought they knew how to get away with things.
Is this correct:
two square parcels abut, but only at the SE corner of one and the NW corner of the other. No overlap, just a pinpoint junction.
If that is the case, how is it not ok for someone to walk across. You could physically never touch private land and cross between the two if you walked the right angle couldnt you?
In this case the outfitters did alot of accussing, bald face lying and threatening. The hunters kept thier cool and cooperated and the law detrermined the hunters were within their right to cross as they did.
Anyone that agrees with keeping the public off of public ground is doing so to benefit themselves. It's really no different than stealing. Any landowner or outfitter with real integrity would let public have access regardless of any law saying they didn't have to.
And yes I do own land. I also have a lease that we regularly allow others to cross our land to get to theirs when the regular route is too muddy.
With that said, I dont think I will ever corner jump in Wy but then again if I am faced with it, I will do it.
If I get the ticket(s) so be it. I will pay to go to court to win.
But then again I have always done things the hard way:)
That is The Way It Should Be!! .... PERIOD!
In Colo you will likely get a ticket for corner hopping while in Wyo..who knows? It would be nice if the WG&F stepped up to the plate and made a decision one way or other and published it in the WG&F regulations. Sportsman would then know what is and what is not legal in Wyo!
The G&F can't do what you're saying because they don't make a law like that, but only enforce what's on the books. If there is no law against it like in Wyoming, then it's up to the courts. When G&F issued the guy a ticket for it a few years ago he took it to court and won his case in that jurisdiction. That's when G&F decided not to risk issuing tickets anywhere and why it is now up to the individual county officials (Sheriff) to either issue tickets or not depending on whether the County Prosecutor will back them if it went to court and how the Judge or jury that would hear the case would probably rule. Therefore, as I mentioned earlier, in Wyoming if you want to corner jump you need to contact the county officials where you'll be hunting to get their stance on whether they will enforce it or not. Some will prosecute and some won't. Where I hunt they won't, but even though I have a couple spots I could do it, if the adjacent private property landowner saw me he would ride in on his horse and ruin the hunt there like he has already done a couple times on legal BLM land, so it would just be a pain in the wazoo and not worth it. It's impossible to file hunter harrassment charges in those instances because all he has to do is say he's checking his cattle, water lines or tanks, etc. because that land is within his ranch boundaries. The more property a rancher owns, the more clout he has in a county and if you are dealing with someone with thousands of acres I'd be very careful because he may well have officials in his back pocket. It's crazy when you aren't actually touching the private land if you know the exact corner, but with the ruling by the high courts regarding the air above that finite corner we are screwed in many jurisdictions. God knows how many million acres this would open up if there was a ruling throughout the states that it was legal.
To be clear: this is where two property lines come together at an exact point. Technically one can go across the fence & not physically touch the private land, but one has to enter the airspace above that private land, which depending on the particular state may or may not be legally spelled out as trespassing on the private land.
Tons of properties across the west that are "checkerboarded" like this.
As Topgun notes, if the rancher is tight with the local sheriff or game warden, you're joining Buglemin's buddies and going to town for a night, then back for a trial or paying your fine. Back in the day I did something stupid and crossed a corner and was caught by the rancher when packing out an elk. I played stupid and told him what I'd done, and he let me go with a warning. Now that ranch charges $1,000 a day, and prosecutes trespassers.
The U.S. Supreme court ruled that it IS trespassing because you violate the landowner's airspace. This is where lawyers are able to trump common sense, and judges are lawyers too. And yeah, surfbow, where I live there's a whole lot of checkerboard National Forest that drives me crazy because I can't access it legally, and not willing to risk losing my hunting and fishing privileges for a year.
We actually parked in sight of the ranchers house! ha ha. When we came out he came flying up the road and asked if we were some of those college kids looking for rocks. We said no, we're scouting for deer. He hit the roof. He said F&G was on their way too. We laughed and drove away. About 10 minutes later we passed the F&G truck flying in the opposite direction. We flagged him down and said we believe you are on your way to talk to us. We showed him the GPS which he had never heard of and assured him that we never set foot on private property.
He said yeah... well here's the deal: That rancher leases his property to an outfitter for big bucks. Those guys make a living on that land and if you hunt there my guess is that there will not be anything left of your truck when you get back to it so I would advice you two to seriously consider finding somewhere else to hunt.
We needed the truck so we took his advice although he never did say anything about breaking any laws or arresting us. We ended up with 50 giant sheds from that scouting trip by the way. It was mulie heaven.
Jaquomo
Can you provide a case number or reference?
It seems if the US supreme court ruled on there would less controversy as to whether it was legal, or if state legislators could allow corner jumping.
No question it is illegal. The only uncertainty is whether local LEO is willing to prosecute.
A friend of mine is a surveyor for the BLM and he says it's not as easy to actually find the vast majority of these corners as you may think.
Like I said greed is a very strong shortcoming. I understand not tearing up private property and whats theres is theres. I just see no wrong in crossing a corner.
Just like I dont agree with the 500' above the land. I am pretty sure its not in the legal description on the deed.
As a landowner myself, I couldn't care less. As long as the guys weren't intending to hunt my property or causing damage to fences, etc., I would have absolutely no issues with someone corner jumping. You guys out west have some asinine laws to deal with. I guess the ranchers and outfitters must have a ton of influence.
Only a greedy bastard would attempt to shut the public out of ground that they pay taxes to support.
I do agree with the statement regarding use of a GPS and it's accuracy. They will not get you close enough to corner jump unless they allow you to find an actual corner marker. That's the only time I would jump a corner. However, as stated above in one comment, if the corner is not marked the private property landowner has no more to go on to say that you were on his land than you saying you weren't, but if he has clout in the county, and many are literally Gods because of their wealth and influence, they would probably win if you were ticketed and went to court to fight it.
The laws in the West aren't any different than anywhere else. If you trespass (by legal definition) and the property owner wants to press charges, it's up to you to prove you're not guilty of the charge. The WY guy got lucky in that they charged him with the wrong thing. So he got off on a technicality.
There is a great deal of difference.
IMO what difference does it make whether this scenario is landlocked or just shorter/easier to corner cross?
Or are you insinuating that perhaps if one walked the longer/"legal" way around yet tossed gear over the corner it would be OK, while corner hopping in person would not be OK?
I suppose if nobody is there to see you and you toss gear across then walk around, you can truthfully say "Your honor, I walked around and here is my route". Not sure I would want my case to rely on that though.
Perhaps the trespass law doesn't relate to gear? I don't think so, however, because if so it would open the door for your deck, tree branches, kite flying or whatever to overhang your neighbor's property, which I'm betting is not legal.
For example, in Missouri: "A person does not commit the crime of trespass in the first degree by entering or remaining upon real property unless the real property is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders or as to which notice against trespass is given by:
(1) Actual communication to the actor; or
(2) Posting in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders."
Which means if I'm hunting state or national forest land that joins private ground and I end up on their property by mistake I'm not trespassing. So in theory, if I crossed at the corner from public ground into another public and the bordering parcels of private ground are not properly fenced or marked (purple paint) then no trespass has been committed.
I haven't had the opportunity to hunt out west, but I imagine that many of these remote private land boundaries aren't fenced or marked. A trespass ticket in that circumstance wouldn't hold water here in MO.
I am not at all in favor of any form of trespassing. My point was quite the opposite. Many are just too lazy to pack in an out legally. I really have no idea if some of the land is landlocked. Most states do not allow that to happen. An easement is forced to be sold or granted.
Here in NM LOs don't need to post the FENCE at all; only the entrance gates at access points.
So if 100k acres only has 1 road going into it and that gate has a posted sign, the barbed wire fence you cross a couple of miles on the backside of the property is considered legally posted.
However, if the property isn't fenced it has to have signs every 500-feet (or some such, not sure exact distance).
It seems to me like intent should play a large role in these cases. If the intent was to simply get to the public ground and not to hunt or remain on private land then what harm was done? Why issue a ticket?
I'm all for property rights, but honestly how did a guy just trying to get access to some public hunting ground violate your rights?
The two BLM parcels circled in red adjoin National Forest at the corner of the first, and the corners of each touch. Neither are legal to access. Both have good hunting.
The one circled in green is accessible because a public road crosses the bottom of it.
THis is not about tresspassing. This is about people stealing public land from the public. IT's not enough for them to be able to utilize it for personal use and to make money off of it as an outfitter. They want it all to themselves and if you want to use it you pay them.
It's obviously wrong.
I don't think you would have any problem just walking across that corner though because if that land is accessible from another way it's probably not being worried about by anyone. If they can't keep you off of it form the other side they probably wont care about crossing at any corner.
IT's not about tresspassing on their private land it is about keeping you off of the public they have hijacked.
cantgetdrawn's Link
http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/mailbag/no-precedent-exists-against-corner-crossing-on-public-lands-in/article_d5e4390e-75f4-11e2-93d9-001a4bcf887a.html
Also how are you going to cross at the exact spot? Even if there's a marker it isn't always right at the corner so you would have to have the land surveyed to find the exact corner. Then all the landowner needs to do is throw a couple logs at the corner and you're screwed cause you can't cross without stepping on the logs and his property.
What we are talking about is minor! We're not talking about harming his property by putting up a building. We're just stepping across the marked corner and I have no idea how you came up with the statement about the marker not being right at the corner. The marker is placed there by a surveyor to mark the exact corner, so it needs no further survey if that marker is there. Your log statement is also bogus because the logs, if on his property, would not hinder stepping from piece of public to the other like we're talking about and it would be illegal for him to place them across the marker on to the public land to hinder traffic. You have really come up with some far-fetched theories! The pure fact of the matter is that these private property owners that are landlocking these public lands are doing it strictly because they're greedy and want all the land at no cost to themselves.
Any interpretation that the airspace rule applies to corner jumping is simply spin by the cattleman's association.
I have had to deal with this issue from both sides of the fence here in Wyoming. Im not saying either one is right or wrong but there is nothing you and I can do about it with the laws regarding trespass. Besides there is plenty of non landlocked BLM and USFS land to hunt here.
While BLM land is multi-use managed in most circumstances, the reason we have no guaranteed, granted right of ways to the land locked sections of it is this fact.
It is a shame that we have these guys doing this. Public managed land is public managed land. If it is managed that way, it should be legal to corner jump. It doesn't belong to the private adjacent owner anymore than belongs to me. If owning it is too much trouble, sell it and buy a piece of property that doesn't border publically managed property. It isn't the duty of the public or courts to appease your desire's.
Ownership of these lands lies with the government so stating there is more to consider is simply being one sided to your ones own desire's. It belongs to no one but the government. Not you or I. If it has public access as a written management objective, corner jumping is legal whether the state recognizes it or not. I'm sure people get on the private property but, that is your responsibility to police. Not an unlawful state law's responsibility to prevent.
If owning a ranch or land next to public owned or managed property is to tough, sell it and buy else where. However, this abuse of publically managed property will come to light in the near future and rightfully so. Owning property is great as long as YOU know where your rights start and end. And are ok with that. It becomes a problem when those landowners decide they own or control what they don't. No sense in that.
I'm not real sure how legally any state could pass laws regulating federally owned land or access to it. That in itself is wrong. And could well be beaten in a court of law. It would go a long way to prevent over hunting of pubically owned land, not create a problem.
Just my thoughts. I'm as rights friendly as anyone in this country. Yet, I refuse to let a guy who bought something, knowing the full implications of it, to tell me they have special rights to lands designated to public hunting, that they DO NOT own anymore than I. God Bless
It is true a GPS is not accurate enough to serve the purpose. The only way to get in there is cough up the cash to be flown in y helicopter as Big Fin has done. Make sure the pilot and vessel are commercially licensed to do so too. But... that's not cheap. You may be able to pay the landowner or the leasing outfitter the same amount to walk over. Maybe not.
I'm sure lots of westerners think the east has stupid laws too and that is true. But it is what it is and we will never change that. Same as the Wyoming wilderness laws and they have absolutely nothing to do with anything private other than private enterprise as in outfitting. Now THAT is BS.
So before you do as most, and lump all federally managed land together like you are, do the research to learn the difference in the two. There is a reason federal land is managed under different parent sectors. And that difference is the distinguishing difference in public land and federally owned government land managed for public use.
Somebody is spreading baloney, and it isn't me. God Bless
Somebody is spreading baloney, and it isn't me. God Bless"
God Bless yourself, but there is also a ton of National Forest and state lands throughout much of the United States that is also basically landlocked from easy public use just like the BLM you're talking about. The G&F in any state can also restrict anyone from hunting or fishing any piece of public land just like the Wyoming Wilderness law that restricts a NR from hunting big game in national Forest that have designated Wilderness areas.
We all agree that landlocked public land sucks. I suggest some of you armchair lawyers come here, test the law in court, and let us know how it works out. The guys buglemin referenced in his post did just that and paid the price.
Jaquomo, if they are, then you could by federal law push it to have a granted right of way passable to the public. Refer to above or the Act that is about to be quoted. This isn't a guess. The question is if you have the money to do it. Federal courts have proven this. I've saw it first hand in the past based on this Act
I also know what The BLM is called, why it was invented by the government, and the role it comprised by claiming non claimed land in this country.
Both of you are misunderstanding. I'm not saying it is easy, accepted, or ever going to be on a local level. But federal law mandates it as necessity on National Forests. Here is a quote from the Federal Land Policy and Management Act passed on October 21, 1976 granting that right.
Here is the Quote from the act that demands if hunting is still a use, and was in the past, than a Right of way must be granted.
"Directs the Secretary to insert in any patent or other documents of conveyance issued under this Act such terms, covenants, and conditions as necessary to insure proper land use and protection of the public interest."
Here's another quote stating that from the same act.
"Title V: Rights- of-Way — Authorizes the Secretary of the Interior, with respect to public lands, and the Secretary of Agriculture, with respect to lands within the National Forest System, other than wilderness areas, to grant, issue, or renew rights-of-way for enumerated uses. Sets forth disclosure requirements for right-of-way applicants."
Here's another from the same Act that absolutely demands access to the public.
"Directs the Secretary concerned to include in each grant of a right-of-way under this Act such terms and conditions as are deemed necessary to protect specified environmental, administrative, economic, and other public interests."
The last time I checked, hunting was a use on the National Forests, therefore must have a granted right of way to that National Forest, or parcel of it. It isn't going to be easy. It isn't going to be fun. It isn't going to be cheap. But, it is federal law, and if you never apply for one, than it will never happen. Fighting it locally isn't the answer. If it were, a right-of-way would have been established long ago. You have got the federal law on your side. Good luck and God Bless
Rent the helicopter. lol
Everyone knows politics trumps the people and of course common sense. We are losing more rights and privacy every day and things that are far more important really than access to some land.
I agree with your beliefs but like I said... you're wasting your breath beating this dead decayed horse.
These laws go back much farther than quoted in my first post. They were just directed to enforce them in that act. I'm not trying to beat the same horse here. I'm trying to help guys access what WE own. What we own shouldn't be controlled by a head strong landowner trying to prevent us from utilizing it. Especially when we have federal laws to prevent it from happening and granting us rights to access it. I understand your point and the way it must be perceived locally. But, it doesn't have to be that way according to federal law. Which is the responsible manager of those National Forest public lands. Not the state/states
God Bless and good luck to you western fellas
As far as forcing an easement by hostile taking through eminent domain, which is what it would require, good luck getting that through the court in a mountain county. USFS isn't going by to help you. And to appeal as far as a wealthy corporate rancher or movie star could take it would require huge money and time commitments.
I'd rather spend my time and money scouting elsewhere.
Again it is not about the private ground it is the fact that the outfitter or land owner or both don't want you on the public land that they have hijacked to utilize for free.
Steeler in my case it wasn't about laziness. The corner that my friends crossed was not eacy to get to but it was the only corner that could be crossed. A few years prior it was easy to cross onto that public land because a person who would let people cross owned a little strip of land on the bounadary. The land didn't have a tree on it and very little pasture grass, mostly all rock. The landowner bought it and put up a fence to landlock and hijack the public. The outfitter shamlessly admitted that when he harassed my friends.
If killing an animal is that important to you, something you have to do, to try to hunt unpressured elk, easier elk, more elk, then go ahead, have fun. Sooner or later, that outfitter is going to catch on, figure out things, and when you start mouthing off, things can get real real fast. Spending a night in jail and trying to get bonded out isn't fun. We prosecute to the fullest, demand high bonds and high fines. And we usually get it. Am I a jerk? Yes I am, cause guys don't understand no.
Buglmin: "When a land owner says no, they mean no. And thinking, screw them, and jump a corner is only asking for trouble. Oh, and can you imagine the embarrassment about having your name in the paper!! If killing an animal is that important to you, something you have to do, to try to hunt unpressured elk, easier elk, more elk, then go ahead, have fun. Sooner or later, that outfitter is going to catch on, figure out things, and when you start mouthing off, things can get real real fast. Spending a night in jail and trying to get bonded out isn't fun. We prosecute to the fullest, demand high bonds and high fines. And we usually get it. Am I a jerk? Yes I am, cause guys don't understand no."
How much of OUR public land do you have landlocked to use at no expense to yourself with the thought that it's all yours? Are you a landowner, an outfitter, or both to post what you did? In reply to you question, yes, you're a jerk and greedy if you are either and fall under this landlocked discussion and have that attitude. Why should you have the sole right to hunt those elk you mentioned that are on public land and corner jumping would do nothing to harm your property?! IF you do own such property and have that attitude, then you fit right in with all the other greedy SOBs out there after reading your post. Anyone would have to be pretty stupid to corner jump unless they know for sure that the local jurisdiction will not ticket and/oror prosecute them.
I don't believe I could morally keep the public from public land, not to mention my firm belief in property rights, public AND private.
Yes, and I'm neither because it wouldn't be harming my property and I'm not a plick like many who are greedy bastards just because they can be!!! I've got hunting property up in northern MI that isn't posted and as long as people are courteous they receive the same back from me and can access it when I'm not there! It also gives access to almost 500 acres of state land that very few hunt because it's all landlocked on the other three sides by private lands. that's one more reason why this corner jumping controversy pisses me off to the extent it does. Just because you have that "Me Me Me" attitude doesn't mean that everyone does!
You ask is killing an animal is that important to people? I ask is the almighty dollar that important to YOU, that you do not allow people to access what is rightfully theirs? And, even worse, make a profit by keeping people off of their land. In my mind those that don't allow the public to access public lands by corner hopping (when they never set foot on your soil) are no better than thieves. The only difference is they bribe politicians and law enforcement to side with them.
If I had the time and money I'd break this law, get a good lawyer, and challenge it in the courts. Unfortunately I don't have either so instead I'll continue to educate people I know on issues like this and encourage them to boycott landowners and outfitter who participate in this scam.
The actual airspace trespass is silly. Its obviously about excluding the public from the land when a land owner pursues charges. Lets say I stop along the road, walk to the fence and wave at a farmer to ask directions. He's cranky because the bailer he's working on isn't cooperating. If he calls the Sheriff and wants me arrested because when I waved at him my arm went over the fence, the Sheriff isn't going to do it. He also screwed up because I would have been happy to help him fix that old New Holland 310 since I spent a couple summers underneath one myself.
Now, many of these owners paid a premium because they get exclusive access to a big chunk of public land. Its a big plus to have a couple sections behind your place that you don't pay taxes on and no one else can use. I get that, and see why they want to keep it that way. It was set up wrong in the beginning.
If a cattle rancher sets his fencing bucket down on the public side of the fence or takes his horse across the corner the other way (private to private) to gather cattle, should he have to get a commercial use permit? That would be unreasonable, just like not allowing me to step from public to public.
I like that. Fantastic point that shows just how ridiculous the "violating my airspace" claim is.
I'm not saying this law doesn't suck but it's the law and unless you get it changed - good luck! corner hoping is not going to become legal.
For those saying they would allow it I guess you're a better man than I am or 99% of western land owners are. Or you're not as honest! I live in Wisconsin and land is often advertised as backing up to 1000's of acres of private land in a way that others can't get to the public land. This land sells for more than if the land didn't block off public land. I've yet to see someone pay the extra money to get this land and then put up a sign welcoming hunters to cross over it to get to the public land.
If the ranch outfits on the landlocked piece or purposely bought their land to use the landlocked public for themselves, they probably aren't open to it, but there are still folks who allow hunting or access across their property even though it has changed a lot over the years.
If corner hopping were cleared as legal, setting up no-touch crossing points isn't hard, especially if some sportsman groups tackled it together.
In my case without a doubt it's the former after reading some of your zingers, LOL! You ask a question, get an answer you probably didn't expect or like, and now intimate that people are liars! Geez!!!
We don't hunt the national forest there at all. After all the houses were built on the private property, the elk just aint that thick in there. A lot better places to hunt. Just cause we watch the places doesn't mean we hunt the area. Because we stop and visit the rancher and his family, we were just given permission to cross a huge ranch to hunt the national forest that no one else can hunt. All the guy wants is for us to watch the property cause bowhunters cruise the county road and shoot deer on the private property. Maybe if you guys would actually stop and start making friends with these landowners, instead of trying to be jerks, you might gain the permission to cross. From all I've read on your posts, no one has tried to be friendly, just tried to be jerks.
It is much more diverse, complicated, and lengthy than this but, this is a good place to start. And I'm not going to do it for you. And like Buglim stated, lots of those land locked parcels do in fact have right of way easements into them. They just aren't easy. Be prepared, if one doesn't, and has one established by the courts, it might not be where you want it. But, by federal law, it is defined that one must be established on publically owned property.
Once again, BLM land is not pubically owned or found to be in the public domain, unlike National Forests. God Bless
No need for any easements because we're not stepping on private land and if the stupid air space BS wasn't in place for something like this it would be moot to begin with. We aren't talking private property rights here when there is absolutely no encroachment on their private property if the corner is properly surveyed and marked. We are strictly talking greed and everyone is, or should be, smart enough to know that! We, the public, own the land whether it's in trust or any other way and the comment made as to our names being on the deed, etc. was preposterous and bordering on stupid! I like the shovel idea! Dig a friggin hole under the corner and put in a pipe big enough for a person to crawl through and there is no air space BS involved, LOL!
I'd be fine with someone walking across my (theoretical) property to access BLM ... but if I allow one, then another shows up with an ATV ... then another ... then there's a rutted road ... then they don't confine themselves to the BLM.
Think it doesn't happen? I'm pretty sure it's a lot easier to just say "no". And I don't blame them one bit for that.
So ... maybe it's time to be nice, talk to people, and make friends ... understand their situation ... point out like others above that allowing SOME access and dissuade BAD actors. It can be a win-win ... but it can't start with "That greedy S.O.B."
Think it doesn't happen? I'm pretty sure it's a lot easier to just say "no". And I don't blame them one bit for that.
So ... maybe it's time to be nice, talk to people, and make friends ... understand their situation ... point out like others above that allowing SOME access and dissuade BAD actors. It can be a win-win ... but it can't start with "That greedy S.O.B.""
Sorry, but you are pretty much living in a fantasy world! Even if what you stated concerning a rut by ATVs was true, it wouldn't affect 3 square feet of the private property at the corner. Nope, it's all strictly greed and a good share of these ranchers or outfitters that lease from them are people that you won't get anywhere with because of their greed. I just had a PM from a guy on another website that I'm trying to help on his first hunting trip to Wyoming. He was concerned about ATV traffic in a BLM area that he was thinking about hunting, so he found a big chunk that was landlocked not too far from there and located the land owner through use of his GPS chip. He called and politely asked about possible access through their private land to get to it and even offered to pay a fee. He said the lady was a complete bitch and was as rude with him on the phone as anyone he'd ever dealt with. When he mentioned the name I had to laugh, as I would have told him not to waste his time calling them if he had told me he was going that route. In over 20 years hunting out in Wyoming I've found about 75% or more of the people to be that way. Most were not rude like that, but the answer was always no. However, just by continuing to be stubborn I have lucked into a couple of families that allow me to hunt their ranches for free with only a couple days of working for them as payment for that right. Both have neighbors that I've met that are so bad that one would not even allow access through his land for them to get to a piece of property they owned. Last year the one family swapped it with the other couple that lets me hunt on their ranch because the property was worthless to them because of that jackass neighbor.
Another thing that has happened in the last 30 years to the mountain West is a lot of the old ranches have been bought up by rich out A-holes that don’t want anyone on or around there land period. Go figure.
Vernon
Unless I am mistaken, this statement prohibits the access of public lands via waterways. Although "navigable" waterways are public, the WGFD is stating that you can't use rivers to access public lands unless said public land is also accessible via an existing public road. In my opinion this is a blatant violation of public rights that even surpasses corner crossing.
I don't believe that is what the statement means! The word "OR" that separates the two means either is acceptable, unless there is more there to preclude it that you didn't C/P !
