125 g points help, but with lighted nocks, wraps, and plastic vanes, the FOC is gona be low...too low for my liking.
that will bump you up another 70-100+ grains and increase your FOC
The only catch for your set up may be that the 125gr would tune better with a .300 spine shaft instead of the .340 you have, which would also up your weight. I went up to 470gr last year and got 2 complete pass throughs (arrow in the dirt, not hanging out) on the 5pt bull I shot. I have killed elk with arrows as light as 385gr so your set up will work fine.
I'm a big fan of 450gr- 550 gr from a compound for elk size critters
I will say it won't go thru a scapula at 19 yards...don't ask how I know that.
If you want to bump up your weight get a 125, 150, 175, 200, 225, 250 etc…. point weight. Shoot at 30 yds and see how they fly as you move up in point weight. Once they start fishtailing thats it you will need to bump up your spine, make sure you are shooting well too.
I just went through this trying to bump up my FOC.
I shoot 69-70# 330 26" draw.
Arrows at 27", .340 spine, 150 point, 100 insert, total 519, 20% FOC, blazers, straight off set 3-4 degrees would group ok but i could see fishtailing. HOWEVER, when they flew and hit it sounded like a fastball. Little noisy, but they hit hard, VERY hard. I LIKED IT AND WANT TO GET BACK TO IT.
So what i had to work down too:
Arrows at 27", .340 spine, 150 point, 50 insert, total 465, 17.8% FOC, blazers, straight off set 3-4 degrees Shoot like a rifle, however i still want to bump up the WEIGHT.
What i had been shooting
Arrows at 27", .340 spine, 150 point, 11insert, total 425, 15% FOC, blazers, straight off set 3-4 degrees.
Cheers, Pete
Not an animal in NA that would cause me to change from my whitetail setup.
May as well save the extra cash right?
I would go with the heavier head based on recent experience and a lot of reading. The little extra weight will make a difference especially on a shot that doesn't go as expected. I have spent an extensive amount of time starting threads and reading up on this exact kind of issue the past few weeks because I just changed arrows. My arrows were darts and arrow weight was 355 grain at 300FPS. It was a lite arrow that was not getting the penetration I wanted. Penetration is the key on any shot regardless of where you put it but you know that already.
Though speed is nice for various reasons like that of trajectory you still want as much KE and momentum as you can get out of your bow and still have a tunable fast arrow. Adding the extra 25 grains of weight should not give you a FOC issue and the arrow will still tune just fine IMO. I only think I know because I am doing the same as you right now with an arrow that is 12G heavier than yours.
You could do what I did if you wanted and go to...... http://www.backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/calc/ and type in your exact set up info and play with the arrow weight. It will show your speed and KE as you mess around changing the weight. If you fiddle with it 5 grains at a time you will see where your KE jumps way up and then you get a diminishing return and the KE rises very slowly even though you add more and more weight. There is a sweet spot based on the bows IBO, arrow weight and arrow speed and if you fiddle with it you can find that sweet spot and compare it to your current arrow weight. Then you can make the arrow that weight and see how it tunes. It cant hurt.
Then I went to gold tip at http://www.goldtip.com/calculators.aspx and used their calc to figure the new FOC for the heavier head so you know what it is and know that it is within the recommended range. You can even fiddle with that to get the FOC exactly where you want it. I would bet you are in the middle to low end of the FOC recommendation. You certainly aren't over.
You can also go to http://archerycalculator.com/archery-kinetic-energy-and-momentum-calculator/ and type in the arrow weight and speed that you got from the 1st link and it will give you the momentum and KE of your arrow. You can fiddle with that one two. I used all three links and played around until I found my bows sweet spot for the max KE and Momentum while still having reasonable speed and trajectory. For me it was 422-425 grains. So far w/o and insert and a heavier 125 grain head I have them flying like darts out to 30-35 yards but I have stopped until I put my inserts in. My arrow weight will change -12 grains to 422-425 grains with the insert. I think they will tune just as good as they are now.
I started a thread asking arrow weights and FOC of each hunter here that was willing to answer and hunted bigger game like elk and the average weight of all (60+ hunters) those that participated on Bowsite was 425-430 grains. They ranged all over the place with some very high and some real lite but the average of everyone as the thread sits now is 425-430 grains. (not sure how useful that is but it was for me)..
Good luck and I hope you get a nice trophy.
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com
Very interesting stuff
Having said that, i am a fan of heavier arrows, i hate light arrows....but I also know 5% will make no difference in penetration.
It provides more KE and more momentum. Both play into penetration so scientifically it is impossible to say 25 grains makes no difference
How much does it take to make a difference then IYO?
Do you have any data that shows 25 grains makes no difference?
I'm ordering 3 arrows with .250 spine and i will put a 100 insert and work on 150, 200,250, 300? points. I'm going to see if 650 will work. Im even fine with 550.
I know that 40-42 grains makes a hell of a difference on penetration on a target shoot. Approx 1" difference to be exact out of my bow.
I was using a 355-357 grain arrow and now it is 395-397 and on a target shoot it out penetrates my old arrows by 1 inch at 25-35 yards even though I lost something like 15 FPS.
My buddy shoots my old arrows too and they are exactly the same length and weight. In fact I gave him my old arrows. His bow shoots those arrows at something like 315FPS. In practice my heavier and thinner arrow which is 40-42 grains heavier and traveling almost 30FPS slower out penetrates his almost every time.
The momentum calculator confirms this as well. He generates .496 momentum but I generate .503. He generates way more speed and KE but looses in momentum. Also his arrows are much fatter than my new ones.
When I switched arrows I gained a lot of momentum. Went from .470 up to .503. That is a .033 increase. I will be adding the 25 grains and report back the difference which IMO 'will' show up on penetration. My momentum of .503 will jump up to .522. That is a .019 increase. I am guessing on a target shoot I will gain close to another 1/4 to 1/2 inch of penetration.
Please show me what .470 to .503 means on an animal? You are looking at a decimal and making assumptions from a number. Btw, if you are changing to very skinny arrows (VAP, Deep six) you are keeping things the same in your testing.
Do not get me wrong, I am a huge fan of heavy arrows and I do not need to be educated on Momentum versus KE. I have been bowhunting 25 years and I have a personal dictation for light arrows.
But it is non sense to say a decimal changed by .019 made a difference on an animal.
It is simply too small of a change to ask the man to change his setup. Their are 1000s of post on this site that state they blow through elk with arrows under 425 grains. My wife for one....
I agree you can become a “Calculator Cowboy” and figure the best possible number Why not add 33 grains? Why not 72 grains? Why not 81 grains? Yes, you can spend time on the calculator to get the best momentum number possible. Using the momentum number, why are you not shooting 700grn arrows?
I am sure many are fans of Ashby’s research. I think the testing was valid in many respects. But, Ed was not talking about the difference in 400 versus 425 grains. He was talking about the difference in 5 grns per pound versus 10grns per pound.
My point was simply this – my opinion. for practical purposes, 25 grains will not make a discernable difference. Does it make a calculator cowboy difference…yes
In terms of testing, if all thing are equal, draw length, arrow, arrow diameter, broadhead, etc..EXACTLY the SAME….i think the difference is indiscernible to the point of changing a setup. I am fan of shooting a relatively heavy arrow that shoots the best for the setup. The arrow flight is just as important 25 grains.
BTW, I can think of 50 reasons why your test with your buddy is not valid, but that is not the point. Jut fellow bowhunter brothern sharing our own opinions.
I was not giving a lesson in KE and momentum and I am not looking to argue. I was simply saying to 'you' that it makes a difference and changes with each grain of weight you add because science says it does. I then explained to bowcross what my test showed with 40 extra grains as a response to his post. I think going from 395-397 grains to 422-425 is significant and will make a difference. I started a thread about big game like Elk and moose and asked what the 60Lb shooters were using for arrow weight and the average was 425-430. The weights were all over the place. Some were real high and 'some' were lower than 425 but not as many as some might have thought.
Any arrow that generates 'enough' energy will kill an animal if the shot is put in the right spot. When it is not in the right spot for whatever reason then the heavier arrow stands the better chance.
In fact his new arrows are a few grains lighter than the 355-357 grain arrows we both had (series 22's). When I shot his new arrows from my bow and then shot mine there was a measurable difference in penetration with my arrow still winning out. We did not compare his new arrows to mine when shot out of each bow on that one. I suspect I still would have won. It is worth noting that the difference in penetration between the 2 thinner arrows was a little closer than it was between the fat versus thin but the heavier arrow still won out. Of course we are talking about 40 grains and not 25 but I suspect when I test it with the extra 25 that it will also show up.
Again not sure how it will translate on live game but if I hit bone every bit of weight and momentum helps IMO so I will be adding the 25 grains. I am a believer now that anything under 420 grains is too lite. I will add my extra 25 grains by way of insert so I can save the $ buying new broadheads
On a side note...You don't need to be a "calculator cowboy" but using one to roughly figure the max KE, ,FOC, speed and momentum combination out of 'your' "compound bow." All it does is help serve to optimize your bows potential. Spending an hour figuring its max potential incase you need it is a choice.
I guess you could just get any bow and not care about any of that and shoot whatever weight arrow you grab and you can still kill with it. I am proof of that after years of traditional hunting. I used the same arrows for 20 years and had no clue of their weight. Had I known what I know now since getting a compound and looking into all this I would have used a heavier arrow and a few critters I lost my not have been lost
Personally after going thru a big exercise of playing with setups and numbers to prepare for waterbuffalo, and shooting Trad, I am a strong proponent of heavy arrows. I set my dad up with some 650gr arrows for his 55lb Hoyt Charger to chase elk in a couple weeks and they are thumpers.
You can really get a lot more weight than you would think without sacrificing too much down range trajectory, and a heavier arrow retains energy much better all else equal of course.
It's all good my brother. We all have opinions and you know what they say about them there opinions. lol...
I am relatively new to the compound ranks but far from new to bow hunting. I am learning little by little as I go along. I have only used a compound full time for 3 years. I used one off and on for about 10 years but it was sporadic and only when I couldn't pull my old recurve back. The switch cost me a little because I was ignorant before that and just killed stuff. Now I started thinking and tinkering. Thinking can be dangerous but the tinkering can be fun. lol... I know what I know even if I don't 'really' know. lol
Good hunting this season.
Yep
Wow. You must have a 345 FPS IBO with a 29.5 to 30 inch draw and you must be pushing that 390 grain arrow 322FPS to be just under 90FT-LBS? Good on you bro and that is fricken awesome. You have huge KE and momentum. More than anyone I even know. I wish my bow was that fast. Even if it was I couldn't pull it back. Got a bum shoulder.....
Like I said before, if you can generate enough speed a lighter arrow will work but when you are like me and you have a 50-60 pound bow that is not screaming fast with a 28.5" draw to boot a heavier arrow works better. At least for me it does after testing it and after also seeing crappy penetration at harvest on several critters I added weight. I 1st added 42 grains and gained 2 Ft-lbs of KE and I plan to add 25 more. It will gain me 2 more Ft-lbs of KE and even more momentum. If I go any higher it is a diminishing return IMO and my KE barley goes up. I could get one more ft-lb out of it by adding more weight but I loose to much speed and trajectory. Of course I still am not in your league but it will be better for my set up to go with what I have now.
To each their own of course.
Bought stiffer arrows that have total wt of 467ish g.
Bow is shooting slightly faster/flatter (due to the Rock Mods) and with the heavier arrows, the bow is noticeably quieter.
it was a win win. Harder hitting arrows, quieter bow, and my wallet is lighter.
Are they a cam attachment only for a Matthews bows?
I believe Rock Mods are a product Mathews developed only for their bows.
The back wall is solid now on my Chill R. Took a few days to get used to that. Now its natural.
I sometimes struggle with certain bow expressions so bear with me.
I know they one thing I dislike about my bow is its speed and the Back wall. That's if I understand the expression correctly. I have to really watch it with my bow because if I am not careful it tries to take off on me before I am ready. I do not notice it until I have shot many shots or if I am forced to hold at full draw for a while. I tend to creep forward and then suddenly "oh crap" pull it back.... Like I said it usually happens after I have shot for a bit. It starts to show up after 15 to 20 shots and only every so often because usually I catch it happening. Every once in a while I will have a very erratic shot. I can put em in there over and over and then suddenly when I hit my release I feel a jerk and I know it is me letting up just a touch and hitting my release at the same instant. It sucks that I cant elongate that point so that does not happen if I creep forward a little. It would make it a little more forgiving on a long hold or when my shoulder begins to get tired. It doesn't take much creeping forward before it tries to take off that's for sure.
How did those mods allow you to gain speed with a heavier arrow?
The Chill R (80% let-off) has a soft wall at full draw. The Rock Mods come in 75 or 85% and create a sold wall at full draw.
I was shooting Black Eagle X-Impact 300's with the original Chill R setup (72#).
My Black Gold Ascent Ambush sight scale was dead-on at 60 yds.
After the Rock Mods I had to change arrows to the 250's because the 300's were just a little too weak.
250's are heavier. Same scale on sight, shooting at 60 yards, my arrows were hitting high. Adjusted sight to 57 yds and hitting dead-on.
Changed sight scale for 3 fps faster bow.
Doesn't make sence, but that's what happened.
From the Mathews website: Mathews® ROCK MODS™ come standard on the Chill® X and are also designed to fit AVS® Perimeter Weighted DYAD™ Cam Systems for the Chill®, Chill® R and Chill® SDX. Built with an integrated draw stop, these new mods provide a rock solid back wall for shot-to-shot consistency. Experience custom performance and optimize the let-off to your own personal shooting style with either 75% or 85% let-off.
When I anchor, I anchor solid on back corner of my jaw bone and keep back-tension.
I hope so and wish you the best of luck. Get em and post up some great pics.
I love my D350 :)
I can change my draw length w/o a press and tried that but it didn't help. My problem is my shoulder. It is why I have a 50-60LB bow and not a 70LB bow. It is why I gave up traditional hunting after 20 years of it. If a bow has no let off I struggle now badly after 6 or 7 shots. Shoulder gets very sore deep down in the shoulder.
After I pull my compound back over and over during practice is when it happens. Under normal hunting circumstances it is not an issue. If I only shoot 10 to 15 shots I am fine and it never happens. After that is when I occasionally will have one take off and I can tell its happening because my shoulder gets sore and tired too. The only other time is if I hold for a long time several times w/o enough rest. I could get a bow with 85% let off instead of the 75% I have now and maybe that would help during practice.
I have learned to avoid it more and more by shooting several times a day rather than trying to take 100 shots in one session.
I am given some thought to increasing my draw length instead. I would have to learn a new anchor point but the further back my arm pulls the string the less it hurts my shoulder and I can shoot more shots. I have tried it with other bows of my friends. Sounds weird but it is true. Its as if where my draw stops is at the worst spot for my shoulder issues. Problem is I would have to increase my draw by an inch. That's tooooo much.
I will just keep shooting several times a day for now instead. I also have arthritis and spurs in my shoulder and I think the spot where my draw stops is just perfect for those spurs to dig in or something. Very annoying and painful that's for sure but I cant have surgery yet.
Sorry to hear about that darn bone spur.
Last summer, my right shoulder was screaming at me. Perfect timing as I had my NM elk hunt scheduled.
Visit to my Doc, MRI, and my ortho Doc, one shot in the shoulder felt great. Lasted 10 days. Just enough to get through my elk hunt.
Tried to milk it until Feb. No-go. By Nov, I could only shoot my bow 2-3 times and my shoulder would scream bloody murder.
Surgery in early Jan. Out hunting with flintlock a week later.
Couple months later, started shooting my bow. Now, 100% recovery.
Thank god mine is not as bad as your yet.
That's awesome that you got back to 100%. I am scared of Docs now. I have had a spinal fusion and hip surgery to remove a bone spur and both found me worse than before I had them done. I hate docs now and do NOT trust them.
I will eventually get my shoulder taken care of once it interferes with everyday life but for now it rarely interferes with most of my daily life
This is the most annoying part....Most times it only bugs me when I use it in a way where I am pulling on something toward me. (you know like a bow).... Picking things up and normal work it is fine. It bugs me bad when there is a weather change but mainly it interferes with my shooting more than anything.
So far I have dealt with it by switching to a higher let off bow. I 1st had a round cam PSE Elite that didn't have much let off but I seldom used it. Now I have 75% let off. Maybe in a year or two I will go up to 85%. That extra 10% might make a huge difference on repeat shooting. I will have to test it out with one of my buddies bows. I also do exercises in the off season when I am not shooting (like in the winter) so I keep it somewhat ready to shoot come spring. If I don't it sets me back and I get a late start on practice shoots.
My oldest daughter is one and the stories she tells me!
My ortho Doc is a DO and not a MD. He was real good at the what he does. Bow hunter too.
Had several very large spurs removed five weeks ago on my rt big toe. Nearly 100% on that issue too.
Too bad you dont live closer, I'd put you up for a month and you could visit my Doc.
