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Wolves have a place in the wild IMO. Due to regulated hunting they are not really wanted though because of their impact on it. It isn't the wolves fault that they do what they due. Its natures fault. When a species is removed other things change for the better and others for the worst. When a species is reintroduced some things change for the better and others for the worst. It is the way of things.

Wolves have been around for 10's of thousands of years and if we don't kill them all they will be around long after man kills himself off and the species wolves need to survive will have ebbs and flows in the herds just like it has always been. Eventually the wolves will over populate and die off to smaller numbers and the game they seek will explode in number. Then the wolves will recover and decimate the herds and the cycle will start over again. It is was it is and it is the way nature keeps a balance I guess. Now throw regulated trophy hunting for sport into the mix and it is chaos and all the wolves fault

It is what it is.

Kill em all right?

The piece is environmental witchcraft at best.

Through ignorance, I'm sure many people on the fence probably think the same. If I were an anti, I would deff try and make it look like all hunters have the wipe them out mentality and change a few more minds.

Wolves are here to say. Like it or not, if you can't find a way to play nice, hunting will be gone.

The west isn't the same as it was. Wolves can be a part of it. How the wolf introduction went bothers me far more than the fact that it happened. I was a supporter of it in the beginning. As it progressed I changed my view. I have never been anti-wolf, but I will never support a reintroduction the way it was done. The only species I'm unhappy with is my own.

Oh,and they will boldly tell you that fewer Elk/deer mean fewer hunters whom they feel are barbarians to begin with.

Wolf predation has played a big role in the decrease to the deer herd in central and northern WI. They have also prevented WI from growing an elk herd. They are the #1 reason the herd has not grown to where a hunt could be held. The WNDR has paid $millions in restitution charges to cattle owners and families who's pets have been killed by wolves. I would have no problem at all with seeing them all removed from WI.

Take propoganda for what it's worth. Those who glorify wolves as the "icon of the west" are no different than Toby Bridges and Lobowatch.

Instead of wasting time and effort arguing about events that happened 20 years ago, folks would be a lot better served by educating folks about how wolves can be hunted without sending them back to extinction.

Millions of dollars are taken in by groups like Howling for Justice and Center for Biological Diversity, because there are many folks out there that believe their propoganda that wolves are barely hanging on by a thread.

Much of this has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with emotions and public perception.

Right - and the same cattle ranchers with Butch Otter in their back pockets, looking to take out every last wolf, would have LOVED the notion of a few million bison displacing their sacred cows from the cheap public lands grazing allotments they make their livings off of.

Yellowstone is as close to a balanced ecosystem as you're going to get and look at the Elk numbers now(3900) compared to before wolves(19,000+) What do you think is going to happen in the real world?

What is the percentage for hunters?

Bowsite seems to be about 90% anti-wolf (at least the vocal ones) - how many of them haven't seen one?

I have hunted with them since 16 although there were less of them in the 1980s (in MN). I have no problem with them. In fact, it keeps most of the chicken littles hunting elsewhere.

There is a good article in the May 2014 issue of Discover on the elk in Yellowstone.

Wolves contributed to the elk decline, but not as much as you would think. As with most issues that bowsite thinks are simple, it is not.

From the Discover Magazine piece, Amoebus refers to (thanks for the link):

"After spending five years trying to find the one thing that could explain the declining elk populations, Middleton has concluded that there isn’t one — there are many: Trout fishermen, bears, wolves, fish, climate change and factors yet unfound collectively shoulder the weight of that loss. “Changes in the system were perceived as a consequence of wolves,” he explains, but these reintroduced predators actually have a relatively small impact — one that is far outsized by the hoopla surrounding them. The elk population in Yellowstone is at the mercy of a much larger, human-altered ecosystem."

Lose one tag because of a wolf you can thank all the pro-wolf folks. It's working just as planned. There are areas that have lost pretty much all their tags, very much due to wolves. But that's fine.... with those who have and will never hunt it that is....

There was a reason they were hunted down where they were in the past. Wasn't a "hobby", not much back then was a hobby. The select few from wealth that didn't have to make a living in the area romanced about them, they had hobbies. Those making a living went on about their hard work.

DL, a wolf is about the only thing I'd pull out the rifle for.

WY has the only wolf plan that will work. OK on the park. A big coyote off it. Exactly as it should be. That's exactly why WY is targeted, because it has a shot at working. Hopefully they can resume as planned soon. Or rather, legally resume....

Lots of factors effect the elk populations, but I think I know one place to look for 32,000 missing elk every year.

Dang climate change strikes again.

You didn't bother to read the article, did you?

In summary:

Bears eat a lot of shallow spawning cutthroat trout.

Trout fishermen illegally introduced Lake Trout into Yellowstone lake.

Lake Trout outcompete the cutthroat, cutthroat numbers way down.

Lake Trout spawn in deep water, bears cannot catch them, so bears are hungry.

The bears eat more elk calves (60% of all the deaths were from bears).

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Not as sexy as "The wolves ate them all".

You didn't bother to read the article, did you?

In summary:

Summer forage plentiful til 1999.

Cow elk which are properly nourished can conceive better than undernourished ones.

Since 2000, Yellowstone have had severe droughts (climate change part).

Elk forced to eat less nourishing summer foods = less conceiving cow elk.

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Not as sexy as "The wolves ate them all".

GPS studies on cow elk show that there was "no correlation between the rate of wolf encounters and the decline of either elk pregnancy rates or the levels of body fat, which are crucial for surviving the cold winter". This counterdicted the Creel's 2007 paper which suggested that the presence of wolves stressed the cow elk.

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So, as they summarized, wolves are part of the reason that elk are down in Yellowstone, but not any more than 3-4 (or more) other factors.

I don't trust studies put together by people grasping at straws trying to defend the indefensible. Other studies say different, they contradict them. Common sense says different, many elk that die in winter are deaths caused by wolves pressuring them, making them use precious energy when they can least afford it. No tooth marks, but dead with wolves the cause none the less. There have been harsher winters with higher survival rates. Bear are no pressure in the fall and winter. Some cats maybe. But solo cats are harder on the deer than the elk.

Same with the others. WRT the fishing I didn't have to read far, it was ridiculous from the get go. Bears eat the calves in the spring. They eat spawning fish in the fall. Maybe your "experts" should go back to school. I seriously doubt they were wildlife biologists that wrote that. Not any with their creditability on the line.

This is fail on so many levels, essentially wolf folks desperate to find any reason but wolves as to elk herds decimated or gone. The things these people are willing to tell in support is the real distraction, to put it kindly.

Yes, there are many reasons for the reduction in herds. You will never get a wolf lover to admit his wolves are proven #1 reason in every area where they have expanded in numbers. That's called correlation, not random coincidence....

I don't need any credibility if this is what passes for it in wolfland....

Not even a "well, yeah, that was BS.... but the other stuff is true...."???

Cred indeed....

Matter of fact, I did. Funny how the drought, trout replacement, etc, etc, only decimated the elk in the area of high wolf populations. Yep, all just a huge coincidence!

Red flags go up when I hear "climate change" being blamed for anything. One thing to say droughts caused something....quite another to say droughts due to climate change caused something. That's when they lose all their credibility with me. Their agenda is clear.

You can't discuss proper management, kill quotas, decimated prey herds, etc... because the real intent of the wolf releases hasn't been accomplished. Proven by the fact every time the conservation side tries to manage them, they disagree, sue, do whatever to keep their march else thriving. They think no management is the correct action because humans don't belong in nature.

It gets really old trying to talk with these people as the discussion is open and shut as far as they are concerned. There is a severe ignorance expressed by the majority and it isn't those that disagree with them stinking of that. Wolf over all is there moto and nothing else matters. Talk about close minded ignorance.

I agree. I have yet to find a bleeding heart anti I couldn't make look like a bumbling idiot. They wouldn't be so bad if they just had a modicum of commonsense and honesty in them and looked at the world like it is supposed to be.

Don't forget the over browsing the Elk did as well now.

How's it go?....Not as sexy as.....

The bullshit grabbing at straws is getting old. The wolves are and will eventually out pace game species ability to feed them. As that happens they will turn to other food. Pets, cows, lambs, etc.

Sorry but the wolves have no place in the lower 48. The decreased winter ranges, the lack of food, the highway and habitat fragmentation all lead to a situation where wolves have a devastating effect.

More importantly they were never welcomed or wanted by the overwhelming majority of people they have been forced upon.

In one a buddy saw a single pack of wolves kill 24 elk just outside of Yellowstone only 3 were eaten off of and the rest laid there for other scavengers. In 2 weeks the wolves never returned to eat'

OK, maybe a tiny bit of livestock two (thrown in for the grammer/shpeling cops....) but they promised they were coming back to eat them...

Also....There is no way the wolf will kill all the elk or any other species period! Once the food source gets to low the wolf will die off to much lower numbers and the herd will recover to epic numbers. Plain and simple. Nature 101 IMO.

what a pic eh? Did thee wolves drag all those dead critters to the same spot or did they corner them all there?

:o)

Cutthroat spawn in the spring. This has been known for a while.

When you analyze the people these groups are comprised of you will find the majority are pro animal rights anti hunting liberals.Time and time again this argument goes on where I live and the anti hunting sentiment is always brought up along with a disdain for anyone involved in outdoor pursuits other than nature watching.

I would hope most hear are for a balanced ecosystem but these groups are cleverly using the wolf as a weapon to fight us while we sportsman are the ones paying to study and manage them from a already stressed fish& game budget,Brilliant strategy!

James - I hunt within 15 miles of the Canadian border of MN. MN is the only lower 48 state that has had wolves all along. I hunt in probably the highest density of wolves in North America if not the world (3000+ wolves in the top 1/3rd of the state).

Your statement is not true for all hunters.

Other wise you are fake!!

My apologies and thank you for the correction, it lead me to a good deal of info on the cutthroat and the bears.....Where I grew up in the mountains of Northern CA I remember the trout spawn being later summer, salmon was big in our area in the fall. Many of the high mountain lakes you couldn't get to until almost June and many of those still had ice on them.

You are correct, according to this study Cutthroat trout spawn in the Yellowstone average beginning the last week of May, the last week of spring. The study linked stated the majority of the spawn was in June and July all the way into August, with the bears hitting the spawn peaking mostly June and July, a good deal later than elk calving.

The study also stated that only 15-20% of the Yellowstone bears even hit the cutthroat spawn, Only those bear in the immediate area. Leaving 80% or more that were never a part of the spawning.

So my apologies as to cutthroat spawning dates. I was wrong as to the dates and they were earlier than I had thought. But still a month or so from calving dates. One could argue they turn to the fish when the calving is done.....but not the other way around.

Once the calves get their legs and can run with the herd that source is pretty much done. From early summer on through the winter the effect of bear predation drops to near nothing. From then to the next May it's all wolves and a few big cats.

To make any connection between fish spawning and elk depredation is still grasping at straws... to put it kindly. They are looking for anything, anything but the most obvious reason, wolves. Bears have always used elk calves as a food source, long before the wolf introduction when there were many times more elk for the bears. (almost 5 times more prior to introduction)

That food source is far less than it has been due to wolves. More bears after fewer and fewer calves. Fewer and fewer calves NOT due to trout fishermen. Every calf is that much more important to the herd recruitment when number go down.

Pretty much means that to get ungulate numbers up you have to control predators. Many places that is not allowed, elk, moose, deer numbers suffer. Some to the point of losing entire hunts, as many of the hunts around Yellowstone have been lost. Cancelled. Other areas severe reductions in tags.

I understand if a person never were part of those hunts it is not important to them they were lost. Human nature. But please try to understand the frustration of those who are actually being effected, those losing hunting. Some losing livelihoods.

Elk numbers in the Yellowstone are still declining. No comeback on the horizon.

http://rmefblog.blogspot.com/2013/03/yellowstone-elk-population-falls.html

In less than one week, with only 1500 tags issued, 85 out of 150 have already been registered with 3 of the 6 zones already closed. The season is supposed to last to the end of February but has never made it to Jan 1 with the quotas being met very quickly. We'll never get to 350 animals with the quotas so damn low. Hunters in WI will continue to SSS even with a season.