Muzzy....Cut on Contact??? or Not??
Equipment
Is the Muzzy trocar tip a cut on contact it not??
Yes it is. The edges of the trocar can hold an edge that will cut easily. This is what surgeons use for orthoscopic surgery.
they use muzzy's for surgery?
I can give you an appendectomy at 40 yards.
Why would a Simmons man care?
No Fuzzy, we use them to trim nose hairs :)
I just never thought if them as a true coc but by the pure difinement they are probably more of a coc than snuffers, and montec and other similar designed heads.
No. The blade does not meet the target on impact
Yes, those trocar tips can be sharpened to easily cut through a hide. My friend has been using them with a longbow for twenty years and he always touches up the trocar tip on a stone.
On Muzzy's website they only indicate COC for the Phantom series. I.e., those heads meant to be sharpened all the way to the point. Otherwise, all b'heads with points similar to the Muzzy trocar could be considered COC (triangular with semi-sharp edges).
I consider the VPA, Snuffer, and all the good two blades as COC... Then there are the heads with a chisel point that I don't consider COC, like the standard muzzy's, thunderheads, etc... The trocar is probably closer to a COC than a chisel point, but I still don't consider it to be true COC and less all blades meet to a point without interruption. If I were to shoot a replaceable blade fixed instead of VPA, either the trophy taker terminal T (which I still have some) or the Muzzy Trocar would be at top of my list.
Looking close at the muzzy and noticed how it has a concave bevel tip. This makes it have about a 25 degree bevel which is keener than the 30 degrees bevels on vpa and snuffers. I've never shot them because they are so small but they do have a good tip.
It depends on how fast they are traveling. I would sat any muzzy traveling at 75mph or faster will cut on contact.
By the normally assumed meaning of the word, no they are not...I believe the word was originally intended to describe a broadhead for which the main blades extent to the very tip. But it is a contradiction with the Muzzy as they DO cut on impact. I'm always amazed at how easy it is to get the edges of a used trocar tip so very sharp.
No the trocar tip is not a COC which by the way the only good heads are COC.
What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China?
Seriously??? Who cares??? Ed F
Redhead, there are thousands and thousands of dead critters that lead me to believe that statement is incorrect.
How is the trocar tip which can be sharpened enough to cut your skin, not be considered cut on contact, give some thought about what that means. It has 3 sharp edges that cut on contact, you cant define it any other way.
Slick trick viper trick is another example.
If you take the time to hone the leading edge of this, I cannot see how you can successfully argue that it is not a COC.
Aprospos of nothing, I was guiding John "Muzzy" Mussachia (inventor of the Muzzy broadhead) in September of 1985 when the first moose was shot with a prototype Muzzy from John's favorite old take-down recurve.
The moose was dead in less than a minute...
Any other questions?
Pete
It seems to be a matter of semantics of the pointy end.
1. Cut on Contact (COC) where the main blade and the tip are a singular and continuous piece of metal.
2. Secondary tips that are not part of the main blade, such as Trocar, cone, pyramid, etc.
They are both sharp at the tip.
Muzzy was invented by a long bow shooter...... bet alot of guys did not know that.......
I was kind if wondering how folks would answerr this. The fact is the hollow ground design of the trocar tip makes (when honed) more of a coc or at least as much as the snuffers, vpa, and montec. It still can't compare to the 2 blade coc in penetration qualities.
it does not matter what you call it, but a true COC head has the main blade meeting the target (that is the "on contact" part) first. that is the generally accepted vernacular. individuals can define it how they want an it matters not in terms of effectivelness, but it does matter in terms of commonly accepted language.
I can call my car a dishwasher and tell people i drove to work in my dishwasher. I still get to work, but the language used to describe how i got there is unconventional and misleading.
It may not meet preconceived ideas of what coc is, nevertheless, that doesnt change the fact
(edit) Nor does the fact that many previously contrived, majority held views, are neither logical or entirely correct. Time and popularity does not necessarily correlate with fact and reality.
An example that gets me is the pronunciation of the word "forte." Everyone knows the word is pronounced "for-tay," but the reality is that you will look stupid if you pronounce is correctly as "fort". In this example, you have the option of appearing smart to the causal listener or to the rare cunning linguist in the room.
"Coues" deer is better known majority-rules faux pas.
Does a pyramid point Thunderhead COC?
"Does a pyramid point Thunderhead COC?"
It's been a long time since I have looked at a Thunderhead, from what I remember, the edges of the tip could not be sharpened enough to form cutting edges.
If the criteria for COC is to have a cutting edge all the way to the tip, I would say no the Thunderhead does not meet that criteria, Muzzy does.
Not COC, but really, who cares?
Thunderhead...4 sided tip-90 degree angle.
Snuffer, vpa, montec, and other similar heads...30 degree cut at the tip.
Muzzy...hollow ground at the tip...probably 28 degree enge at the tip. More cut on contact than any of the above. Cut does not maintain all the way to the blades but nevertheless it IS COC.
No it's poke on contact...
Or jab on contact... J.O.C.
The blades do NOT cut on contact.
Holy crap, it's not that difficult to understand. All you need is at least a three digit I.Q.
Back before mechanicals, this was the big broad head discussion. There where several videos that showed people trying to stretch a deer or elk hide over an arrow. The true COC would slice through but the others would really flex an arrow. The muzzy brand new out of a pack will flex an arrow before it penetrates a deer hide.
So you are saying any 3 blade reguardless of design is not coc...interesting... and true!!
sharpen the edges on the tip and they cut a hole with no more effort than if the blades came to the tip. Its cut on contact by defenition
Muzzy's are definitely not COC heads. There is a big difference.
So you mean the sharp edges won't cut when they make contact?
So...this also should be considered a true COC?? (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) ;-D
Ha, I found it funny that my jab on contact(JOC)stuck with someone!
Join the Muzzy Moment Club! I've been shooting them since 1988. The trocar tip is not a true cut on contact design but there one tuff head. Muzzy does make there Phantom line which is a cut on contact design great head also especially for folks shooting lighter poundage. Bad To The Bone!
They are not "Cut on Contact" heads...but with some honing they certainly do cut on contact :^)
What I see here is the same as the DIY thread...people have marketed that they have a coc heads or a diy outfitter service and they don't want to let go if it regardless of what logic says...it's their brand and they don't want to loose it or allow others to take advantage of it.
Any logical person can see that the muzzy is coc at the tip. It has a section at the rear of the tip that is the barrel that doesnt cut but that is not the tip. I would say it is one of the best tips out there and defiantly coc.
With a small application of Next Level Thinking...you too can understand what a COC broadhead is....( 3 digit IQ not required)
Not that is makes any difference, a few years back Woody Sanford did extensive research on multiple broadheads on real animals.
I cannot find the thread, but in the end he clearly defined what was and was not cut on contact.
Gouge on contact, Jab on contact, etc.
Hurricanes can send a 2 by 4 through a building, proving that speed helps non COC heads.
Recognizing the speed factor, I shoot non COC with my Hoyt Compound, and COC ( Magnus Stingers ) with my recurve and longbow.
Bottom line, shoot what you can hit with, and as someone else said, thousands of dead critters are testament to the fact that you don't need a COC head to get the job done.
If I take one out of the package and rub it across my finger... it will not cut it. Heck, even a Montec will cut my finger out of the package.
If you have to file it, then sharpen it, then hone it, it is NOT COC. If that were true then every head on the market can be labeled COC(with a little filing, honing, ect...) Sheesh
Sheesh nothing, LMAO That's the criteria? Whether you feel a blade is sharp enough out of the package?....Half the broad heads made would fail....Holy crapI I remember the old days when all the COC blades had to be filed and honed out to the package, they wouldn't cut butter. They were still given the label of COC.
Here it is real simple, If you sharpen the edges they will cut on contact. Can't be any simpler. Just because it doesn't fit a pre determined mold in your mind, doesn't change that fact.
Here's the original question..."Is the Muzzy trocar tip a cut on contact"
The answer to that is yes, sharpen the edges and they become blades, just like a knife or the main blades. In fact Muzzy used to give instructions on doing just that so they would COC.
Give it up dude, you're the only one who believes so. Are all the rest of us wrong? I think not.
(oh, and for the record, TBM's opinions never count for anything)
Bou X3
TBM.... did you ever get that Clip-Shot in the mail. Never heard back from you.
Oh OK, that convinced me, I can't argue with that logic.
Atta boy, I knew you'd come around.
BTW, Mark Land from Muzzy does not consider it a COC. Hmmmm.
So all these years I've been sharpening the edges figuring they would cut a hole on contact and now I find out they really don't...that'll save me a lot of work...who'd have thunk it?
Going to be hard to explain to the vpa folks that their head is NOT COC. If muzzy is not then neither is vpa or snuffers.
Yes I got the Clip Shot....what a no brainer. EVERYBODY needs a Clip Shot.
There will never be a consensus when your polling group is an internet forum...especially THIS forum. And when validation by redefinition is so common.
I sharpen my Field Points so they COC.
"Give it up dude, you're the only one who believes so. Are all the rest of us wrong? I think not."
A majority, said that Obama was the right person for the job also....twice.... I tried to resist, couldn't do it....:)
The last Muzzys I bought (last year) will definitely cut on contact right out of the package.
Those that want to continue to argue really need to read AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND Bou's 2nd post.
Nobody is saying that a Muzzy's tip can't be made to be sharp. However, by definition, a Muzzy is NOT a COC. It is a chisel tip. Can't quite grasp what's so hard to understand !?
And yes, a VPA IS COC.
Muzzy has a hollow ground tip that can be made sharper than any 30 degree angle tip like on montec vpa and snuffers...so muzzy is more coc than those heads. So I guess you can say that no 3 blade head is true coc...only 2 blade like Simmons and stingers...they sure penetrate better because they are true coc and not just stated coc.
Thank goodness I continue to live in my world where I don't give a shit what the definition of COC, DIY is, and I don't worry about my arrows being too light.
I'll just take my 430 grain arrows, my non COC Snuffers, and go on a DIWMB hunt.
...."need to read AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND Bou's 2nd post."
I read it and understand it. However, it doesn't mean anything.
So far the only arguments against the Muzzy being COC are opinions that are supported by.....It's so because I said it's so, or because more people who responded to this thread think it's so....Or that has always been the vernacular so therefore it is.....Other than opinions based on pre conceived ideas of how a COC broadhead looks, there are no facts to back up the arguments. At the end of the day, none of it matters but it is interesting to read how strongly people believe in a concept and how equally strongly people condemn an idea that doesn't fit their concept
It seems to be the case that cut on contact does not necessarily mean cut on contact, kind of like the words traditional and instinctive.
Is there an official definition for COC?
The problem is we are arguing two different things. The argument is traditional idea of what a COC head looks like....ie common vernacular vs actual performance. Granted, a Muzzy doesn't look like a traditional COC broadhead and no doubt is not marketed as such. But on the other hand it performs as one.
"If you have to file it, then sharpen it, then hone it, it is NOT COC."
If this is true, then all of my various Zwickeys, Delma MA-3's, Ace, Magnus, etc, etc, etc, are not coc................yet they are the original 'coc' heads.
This thread is emblematic of adults who get bored enough to convince themselves that semantics have some real value in life.........wow.
If any head penetrates the skin only 1/4 of an inch, is there a cut,, or hole and what would be the difference when examined from the skin side?
Cut on contact... kind of self explanatory.
I defined Do It Yourself and and it was self explanatory too...but folks still argued.
"It seems to be the case that cut on contact does not necessarily mean cut on contact, kind of like the words traditional and instinctive.
Is there an official definition for COC? "
This link is the closest thing I could find to an impartial definition.
Check out the Viper Trick. Slick Trick obviously didn't get the memo
Look closer bb, at the rest of the page on that link. You just disproved your point. The Viper Trick is built so that the blade edge is continuous all the way to the point. It's just two different materials.
Shame to do all that work looking for a link, only to prove yourself wrong.
"No. The blade does not meet the target on impact"
Rolling my eyes......Muzzys trocar lines up with the blade also.
Come on, I know you can split the hair even finer.....Tell me it doesn't count because there is a gap....come on, I know you can do it.....sheeesh, see I can say that too
Here is the point....either it cuts on impact or it doesn't cut on impact. Are you trying to tell me that a sharpened trocar doesn't cut on impact?
Where do you guys find the time?
It may cut on contact...but it is NOT a cut on contact broadhead as it is categorized.
quote straight from Muzzy's website...
"What is better a Trocar Tip or a Leading Edge Broadhead?
Both styles have their merits, but nothing has been proven better for penetrating and breaking hard bone than a trocar tip. However, this style tip does require a little more energy on impact. For setups demanding maximum penetration or low energy setups, a leading edge design will deliver the maximum amount of penetration."
"Where do you guys find the time? "
I got no more tags to fill. Butchering the last one tonight.
So you're saying that the blades on a Muzzy will always contact the exact slices that your tip is supposedly cutting? Even if the arrow is spinning? Really, really?
;)
I didn't think you could split it any finer....but I think you did it :)
Really? Have you ever seen one of these....discussions..... ever get settled? This place wouldn't exist if anything ever got settled.
Once I cut my finger on contact with a trocar tip...???
But is it a broadhead? It's not very broad at all. I guess by definition it is a broadhead just not a broad head :)
Hey Moody, good to hear your wit and wisdom again. On another not e, you must be so proud of your boy in DC these days:)
Mine are, because the sharpened tapered edges of the trocar tip start cutting the instant they contact the hair and hide. They cut...on...contact.
Anyway, WTF does it matter in the big picture? When that big bull or buck passes out from loss of blood and oxygen to his brain, does he give a FF what some dumbasses on the Bowsite think qualifies as a COC or COI? I'm thinking probably not...
It doesn't matter at all!
There is/was never a point to this thread. Just another TBM dribble that a few of my friends and me played along with. Clearly some take things way too literal.
If you cut one leg off of a duck, will it just swim in circles?
Sorry, I've been busy hunting and guiding and got in on the joke late. Sometimes it's difficult to sift the serious nonsense from the unintentional nonsense.
