Mathews Flagship No Cam HTR
Equipment
Just thought I would share.
Thumbs up for Mathews thinking outside the box but where does all its energy come from?
Looks interesting.
MSRP at $1,099.00 Wow!
For that price, it would really have to feel and shoot incredible.
Not that I'm in the market to switch anytime soon, but I'm definitely going to shoot the Hoyt and Bowtech bows.
Are there any high end bows that aren't 1000-1500? 1100 doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me
I can't get on their web site. Probably crashed with everybody trying to get on this morning.
All I can see is the still photo on Facebook. From that it looks like a slaved twin cam(similar to Elite) disguised by round wheels that have an offset axle location.
I'd really like to see more pics. I guess I just have to wait for the site to recover.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXuhSun4T-E&feature=youtu.be
Thanks for that utube link Bob.
It's a three track slaved system more like the BowTech than the Elite. Round wheels with offset axle locations inside those wheels are what give it the same action as a cam would.
No doubt this required a lot of engineering to perfect, but it's still just a compound bow, loading the limbs the same way any other compound bow does. No more or less ingenious than any other binary system IMHO.
It's nice to see them "catching up".
I like the TRG, best looking Mathews in years.
cant wait to shoot them and pick which one I like best.
I have a DXT, what would I expect from a new bow like this that I don't get with what I have now? I just have not shot many newer bows to know of any changes.
What sort of speeds are coming from these bows?
I think it is a neat concept but I am not really sure it is an upgrade over the single cam. It is a slaved system with no horizontal nock control like the AVS system. I will be interested in shooting one of TRG7s. They are a major upgrade in looks IMHO though.
Pat, surely you have this by now. Stop holding out on us!
The HTR has equal loads on each side of the string track, provided they centered the wheels. Had they split the cables and dropped the cable rollers they would have a true shoot thru system.
would have to shoot to be positive but doesn't look as if it really an "advancement". But leave it to Mathews to be able to market as something new and special. the speeds the have it rated at are only 330 FPS @ 65% let off. that goes down significantly if you go to 75% let off. Looks like the "bumpers" are there to protect the cable serving against contact.
changing out threads on these bows looks like it will require much more than most bows, due to the cables rounding that sphere inside the limb. Not impressed at all but I've been wrong many times, just ask my wife................
IBO is 321 FPS with 85% Rock Mods.
This is actually going backwards...they had round wheel bows in the 70's. But his is what I've been pushing for years...a modern round wheel. Truth is cams were never that much faster than round wheels...other technology just got better as cams came out and arrows got lighter. You could probably take the bear grizzly ll and use modern parts and get 280 out of it and it was the first to break 200.
Now what they need to do is get rid of this parrallel limb stuff and go back to the vertacal limbs that produces a stabilising affect as it pushes back on the bow hand. Then they will have a forgiving bow.
I think its a refreshing new idea. I was not expecting anything unusual....but kudos to Mathews....I like it!
330 IBO with a 6-5/8" brace and 65% let off?
pretty much a dog by todays standards. I would hate to pass judgement on specs alone....maybe it's a real treat to shoot.
I shot my highest % with a round wheel bow shooting 197. Just couldn't miss with that bow. Watch and see...I bet this is going to be Mathews best ever.
the fact that they have the Bumpers on there to protect the cables from bouncing off the limbs is very telling. People really thing this is innovative?
Look at the DXT, Drenlin and eZ7 lower cam/wheel. Has Mathews really strayed that far from the old roadbed?
Marketing 2015 !!!!
There is just so much a bow mfg. can do with a riser, limbs, cam/wheel and string. Marketing is the unnamed component.
Hanging with my Elite Ansers.
Shot this bow tonight.
I agree on the similarity to some of the past line ups.
One stand out is the ATA and the ease of the draw.
I'm not sold on the IBO because those numbers don't concern me, it's more about performance.
The brace is nice and the hand shock is minimal.
One sure standout is the balance, it is outstanding.
Go shoot one for yourself, some will love it, others will hate it.
"Dual cam bows are dead" was a sales slogan from Mathews, I guess they finally realized that single cam bows were a fad.
Shot it the other day alongside two Hoyts, two Elites and an Obsession. It felt the smoothest on the draw and grouped amazingly well for shooting with no sight and trying to concentrate on feel. It was unexpected but not even close.
It is Mathews smoothest drawing bow to date. For those that say we had round wheels in the 70's. You are correct, but they shot a screaming 260 fps vs. 330 fps this bow shoots. This bow is also dead silent and Mathews most accurate cam system they have ever built. I shot with Henry Bass a Mathews pro shooter this weekend in Utah. He had the TR9 for a couple of days and cleaned a 450 Vegas round with 44 X's out of 45 in practice, then shot it this weekend in the tournament and shot another 450 with 40 X's and cleaned the 300 round the next day. With a bow he has less then a week. The TR9 is the same bow but with a longer axle to axle, same cam system. I would venture to say this is Mathews best bow since the Switchback.
To say the HTR is a 330fps bow is a bit of a misrepresentation (or as Mathews calls it, marketing). It is a 321 fps bow standard from the factory and you will need to install the 65% mods to get 330. I suspect very few hunters will want the 65% mods. That being said, when someone builds a hunting bow that's very quiet it gets my attention. I applaud Mathews for that. Its just unfortunate that Mathews doesn't have a HTR model with a longer ATA. The short ATA is a deal breaker for me.
I shot one last week at the shop. The draw cycle is certainly interesting. It was smooth but seemed to load up earlier in the cycle. Once I get used to it it was a non-issue. This bow is incredibly stable a full draw with a solid back wall. On the shot it is incredibly quiet. The one I shot had only a rest installed and it was still dead quiet and virtually no vibration. The thing that struck me with this bow is that not really concentrating on my shooting I grouped three arrows in the x with no sites(I used to shoot instinctively so take it for what it's worth). The accuracy and quiet shot of this bow is going to make a lot of folks believers out there. I may still like the Hoyt CSZT better but not $300 better than the Mathews.
"Innovative for sure."
Are you kidding me? I didn't read through everyone's response, but round wheels were designed when compound bows first came out. Then when cams came out, which were called soft because they were somewhat oval, are real similar to the dual cam bows coming out now that are "smooth". Round wheels were always considered easier to draw, caused less hand shock/vibration and are more forgiving/consistant. This not a theory, I have it documented in my old archery books.
It's funny how technology has come full circle and now smoothness is preferred over speed. It's simple, just put the old wheels and soft cams on the bows and mark up the price and call it "innovation".
These bow companies today are not coming out with anything innovative, they just relly on those hunters/shooters who think they need to replace their bow yearly or bi-yearly.
Honestly, now that that crossbows are legal during the archery season in WI, my next bow is going to have a gun stock. This has nothing to do with archery vs Xbows. I'm very satisfied with my current bow and I don't see a need to replace it. I'm also getting to the age where if I sleep wrong my shoulders hurt. I would never get rid of my bow either, since I would use it for hunting states where crossbows aren't legal, or certain treestand setups where a crossbow may be too cumbersome.
Guys,
They are not "round wheels" as in past years. The axles are located way off-center. When the bow is drawn, the draw cycle is the same as it would be with a "cam" and a center axle. Putting the "take-up" lobe off-center in the opposite direction gives it same affect as the "cam" shaped draw mod lobes.
It is ingenious marketing(again), but very old school engineering.
Round wheel bows of yesteryear had axels off center, from what I remember. That's what caused the letoff, when the wheel came over the top. I own an '09 Elite, then in 2010 they came out with softer cams and they said they were more smooth then previous models. Well of course, the cam looked like some of the first cams that came out in the late '80s early '90s. I shared that on their forum and nobody disputed otherwise.
Just to confirm, "wheel" bows from years ago had axles that were WAY off center.
The bottom line is that you can take just about any cam out there and give it a round string track. Mathews took what's essentially a 3-track binary cam and gave it a round string track. But you could do the same with a hybrid or dual-track binary cam. Wheel bows of the past were the standard twin cam. Heck, Hoyt still makes a dual cam bow with Accuwheels. Of course the reason that more manufacturers don't use a round string track on their cams is speed. Today speed is king. Mathews is making a ballsy move with this cam, time will tell if it was a good move or not.
This bow has peaked my interest. Gonna have to shoot one alongside the new Hoyt's and make a decision.
Pat...if it turns out you don't like the bow...can I have it? Thanks in advance.
Pat...Why you making us wait until next month? Give us some details man!
:) Couldn't resist....carry on folks!
funny stuff gene...the looks of that bow is growing on me...I too thought it was "hideous" when I first saw it, but it is starting to grow on me...
This bow is kind of like George Costanza. The first time you see it it's kind of irritating but by the third time you see it you can't get it out of your head!
What is the valley like on this bow?
Shot this last week. Not sure if it's the bow for me but Mathews is going to sell a ton of these. As a few have already commented, it's amazingly quiet and balances great in the hand. It is not a scramer in any sense. Would be curious to shoot it again at my draw length (demo was 1.5" too short) with the 75% mods to better compare the draw cycle with my ChilR.
Pat...I've never owned a "cam" bow other than the Matthews Icon...which is basically a round wheel bow. I bought 3 because smooth drawing finger bows are hard to come by.
How does this bow compare to round wheel draw cycles?
The No Cam's low noise level and accuracy sound good! My old Drenalin is more accurate than my Hoyt Carbon Element and Mathews Creed in my hands so I shoot it for all hunting.
Won't be looking for a new bow though with the three I have. I don't like the increased weight for backpack hunts either. An extra half pound in hand is not what I am looking for. For over 90% of the people that buy a bow it won't be an issue though. Glad that noise and accuracy are there.
Ugly bow pat... throw it out now!!!
Exactly when is garbage day in your neighborhood!
Pat...Is that the regular Lost Camo? or the new Lost OT?
Why does the bow have what looks like rubber sleeves next to the no cam? Do the sleeves touch the no cam? If so, this could be a problem on down the road.
Was not impressed with it. Then again i have never shot a mathews that i was impressed with. They are great bows for sure but many others out there that shoot better for me and feel better to me. I shot this new mathews last week and just didnt see all the hype.
I will put money on it. Nobody will be talking about this bow next year. Mathews is struggling and they're running out of gimmicks.
I was reading on another archery sight, some guys were claiming that the no cam will have to be timed like the old style bows, is this accurate?
No, it should act just like the Bowtech binary as far as cam synch. The cables are slaved to the cam, not the limbs. This should always keep them centered, even if one cable is slightly longer than the other due to creep.
thanks xman. I am going to shoot it and if I like it will buy one.
I shot one yesterday and it's not for me re feel and shot. High hump, short valley, and a lot of vibration at the shot. Maybe for others it will feel different and better.
Can't wait to get mine, 2 month wait out here but well worth it. I thought my CHILL was quiet until I shot this bow. Amazing how vibe free and quiet it is. I preferred the draw cycle of my CHILL initially but went back to the shop and did a little more in depth testing. Different, but not in a bad way at all. This bow will be a winner for Mathews.
If they have to be more aggressive on the cable side of the cam/wheel/?? to make up for the perfectly round string side, don't they potentially make the system more critical of tuning. Does it also mean the string side of the cam has more pronounce humps, leading to serving problems?
It's not perfectly round. I don't know how many more times I can say that before everybody gets it. Just because the outside of the wheel is round doesn't mean the string and cable action isn't the same. Having the axle off center creates the same action as any other binary cam. If you watch the relationship between the string/cable track and the axle location, you will see no difference on operation from a normal looking binary bow.
Don't get caught up in the hype of the marketing words used here.
X-man, are there any inherent advantages to this system over others?
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2353925&page=8 here is a link to the description of the draw force curve of the new no cam htr and some observations about what the haters say about it, its the post with the draw force diagram.
sure are a lot of people saying stuff that just aint true about this bow seems like.
It shoots great for me. As quiet as any bow I've ever shot . I've shot Hoyt, elite, Mathews, bowtech, pse and bear. I don't like the feel of it in my hand, but it is unbelievably accurate and smooth to shoot. I don't feel much if any vibration at the shot. With my setup, 400 gr. arrow, I get 270 fps at 27" draw. Seems like that number is faster than it should be but I won't complain. Can't get much speed at my draw length in a non speed bow. Time will tell how it shoots at longer distances. Jury is still out for now.
I agree - don't buy hype, either for OR against. Shoot the bow yourself and see what you find.
I found smooth draw (which I like), good backwall (which I like), quiet (which I like) and no hand shock (which I like). I'm not a speed freak so I didn't even bother to chrono it, but it sure seems fast enough. I'm not in the position to buy a new bow right now, but if I was, I would buy the HTR.
Has anyone done any slowmotion to track the nock travel? The equal and round wheels for the string would indicate it should be level but I was wondering if any 3rd party source could verify that.
Bought the Hemi-M a acouple of years ago and I really like it. Saw my friends switch every year and I still beat them on the 3D range. It is what you get used to and it becomes a part of you if you practice. Can't wait to see your reviews Pat, good hunting.
Okay, after getting the tape back out, I would like to amend my prior info. The axle IS indeed in the center of the large wheel, read my tape wrong the first time(embarrassing). The "cam action" is only taking place on the small wheel that is offset to the axle. Oops, sorry.
interesting, looks like by adjusting the circumference of the smaller wheels that provide the cam action you can increase or decrease the stored energy. maybe that's next years change.
12 yards that was a 70 pound bow set at 72 pounds. Sorry I omitted that. For me the htr at 72 pounds drew like my Hoyt factor 34 at about 67-68 pounds. Which, by the way, throws that same arrow at about 284 fps. So far those two bows are the bows I shoot the best I ever have. And, I do get to shoot a lot of different bows each year. Pretty much the only real perk to owning a pro shop. Well that and hunting stories.
I shot most of this years flagship bows and came away with a Mathews No Cam. I didn't love it the first time I shot it, but it grew on me. The second go around I was sold. I actually ordered a Chill R but after shooting both I bought the No Cam.
My original intent was to "upgrade" to the new Hoyt Carbon Spyder Turbo as I've been a Hoyt guy for the past several years.
With the little time I've spent shooting the bow, I agree with Pat's initial findings. I don't know why, but it is the most accurate bow I've ever shot. I absolutely stack arrows with this thing. It was also the easiest tune I've ever done on a new bow.
Another thing, this is by far the quietest most shock free bow I've ever shot.
So, I'm no Mathews fanboy, but I'm back to shooting a Mathews.
Pat...Did you ever do a review on this bow? Did I miss it?
Thank you Kota;)
I was just sitting down after PM Charlie and couldn't have written a more similar review. I am also not a fanboy, last owning a Mathews in 2010-which I did like.
I also have owned and/or shot the Prodigy and Nitrum lines. I just sold my others and purchased the No Cam after shooting in over the course of 2-3 weeks.
Did not like at first glance or draw as didnt have my draw at 27".
Then it came in with my specs and I decided to really give it a go. Really glad I did....
The rest prefers 11/16 rather than the usual 3/4 per Mathews in the past. That 1/16" made a difference for bareshafts. Broadheads fly true to fieldpoints and same POI as I assumed they would with bareshafts flying well.
I have no dog in the fight, other than I am back to shooting Mathews. I urge you all to give it an honest shake. I am no expert, but SOMETHING is going on with the riser. It truly allows you to be less that perfect on form and still shoot well. I honestly was shooting instinctively for about 20 minutes the first day and hitting within 10" at 20 yards each time. Good for a rookie:)
The forgiveness matters to me with heavy clothes, and after sitting in the Iowa cold for hours. Has led to less than perfect form.
The draw is interesting, you will learn to adjust as it breaks over somewhat hard IF....you arent used to it, but once you get used to it after 10-15 shots, its slick and steady.
No question, its also the quietest bow I have shot. No vibration. None.
The rock mods are VERY solid on the wall. Very. Love the grip. It does run 1/4" long on my draw board, but can be fixed with a few twists.
Speeds. I like heavy arrows and decided to go back to my FMJ arrows this year from piledrivers. Just started fletching again quite a bit as I await baby #2-something to do between naps.
Was getting 248 fps at 27" and 460 grain arrow on my pro chrono. Fly like darts and perfect flight. Perfect.
In any case, thought to write this as have owned bowtech prodigy, Hoyt Nitrum this year and now a Mathews. All have been good to me but nothing has shot more accurate, more quiet, or tuned easier than the no cam.
I always shoot what I feel is the best for myself, and that varies year to year, as it will person to person. It is definitely not for everyone, but give it a "shot"...pun intended.
Bareshafts and fletched at 20 yards
New custom wraps from onestringer:)
I have enjoyed shooting this bow more than most. Easy on the shoulders and can shoot forever.
Eyad...That Prodigy didn't last long! :) You are starting to take a page out of my book eh?
I just wanted to add a little on rest position. I haven't checked mine yet, because I screwed a rest on and was shooting bullet holes immediately! I think you could put the rest on backwards on this thing and shoot bullet holes. I agree, there is something going on with this design. I don't care what it is, but I like it.
I also agree with your arrow assesment. My likes ACC 3/60's best.
More to come later after I have a chance to chrono, bare shaft and "tweak", but I really don't know what I am going to "tweak" at this time as arrow flight appears to be perfect and broadheads and fp's have same POI.
I will add, if you shot it and didn't love it, try it again...Round two did it for me.
Ha ha. Couldn't agree more with the Round Two thought.
Ironically, the Bowtech derailed on my buddy at the pro shop while he was trying to check the draw cycle. While I was waiting for it to come in from the factory, I had to shoot something and started playing with the no cam. The derail was on him, long story, but he shouldnt have been shooting it. Too heavy and muscled it. So shop got me in another bow.
The Nitrum is FAST!!!!!!!!!! Accurate too but like the No cam better.
I just shot a no cam several times today and was stunned at the smoothness of the draw and how shock free it was at the shot. I bought it and just got home. going to dial it in this weekend since the weather is going to be nice. I cant believe there are people that think the draw is not smooth and easy on this bow. the 70lb bow I bought feels like a 50lb bow it feels the same throughout the entire draw cycle until the last 1 percent before let off.
it was so smooth and easy at first I was slamming it into the back wall and had to adjust the pressure I was pulling it with. super awesome.
After reading this series of posts, it's funny how things went to it's all hype and a slow bow to very accurate, comfortable to shoot, smooth, quiet, no hand shock. I guess speed isn't king after all?
I currently shoot a Carbon Spyder 30 and a Sypder 30. I tried one (a No Cam HTR) a couple of weeks ago. After 3 shots, I ordered one. It does shoot different, you have to shoot one to understand. Can't say it any other way.
The plastic sleeve is to protect the lower cable close to the wheel, emailed the Mathews guys and that was their response, and is necessary for the bow to do what it does with level nock travel and consistency. Also asked them if the sleeve had an affinity to wear out. The response was thousands of shots later said no.
The "round wheel" technology isn't necessarily the same either. Round wheel bows 25 years ago were thick and smaller, remember? Even cams back then were smaller and look at the size of some today. The cables wrapped around the wheels a couple of times in many models. This wheel only has one cable going around it and it is thinner. Seems like there was a lot of hype with cams a couple of decades ago...
Is some of it marketing? Absolutely! Most everything in the archery and bowhunting world is today. You can't say that a carbon riser, binary/parallel cam, or flexible cable guard isn't marketing. Any bell or whistle is usually just a gimmick, until you as a buyer see value in it.
...and I don't plan on selling my two Hoyts either.
"Was getting 248 fps at 27" and 460 grain arrow on my pro chrono. Fly like darts and perfect flight. Perfect."
60# draw weight?
Nope. Ha ha. #70. The 85% mods are coming in at about 320 IBO.
after I shot the no cam today I could care less how fast it is, I will never check it, no need to.
My HTR arrived today! I set the rest at 13/16" from the riser and put the arrow through the center of the berger hole. Broadhead tuned and ready to hunt already. It's been a few years since I've been this excited about a new bow, the local hogs are in trouble!
I made this call several years ago and posted it on bowsite over a year ago. My post went something like this...If someone would make a modern version of a round wheel bow, something like Hoyts old e- wheel they could probably get decent speeds out of it and if hunters would shoot it they would be more deer killed with it than the faster bows. Makes you wonder who's listening. Now where is my bow? My idea..no soup for me...as usual.
$1,099 at most any archery shop...
I guess you can always file suit on a violation of intellectual property rights and get a bow that way?
Shot it at two separate shops. It was very quiet and not an ounce of vibration. I did not like the draw at all. In my opinion they stepped back it's not even as good as the bow they had out last year.
"it's not even as good as the bow they had out last year."...Care to elaborate on that one CT? Is it because you don't like the draw? Or some other reason you feel the bow is inferior to last years models...
You all have me curious. Guess I better give in and go test drive a model. The "I hate Mathew's" crew makes me smile. Doesn't matter how good their product is, they won't give it a positive nod even if they were paid to do so. I suppose I should understand, I have the same opinion of Hoyt products. All it has to say is Hoyt and I walk away. Funny how you get biased.
No bias here. I shoot what I like...Mathews, Bowtech, Hoyt, Elite...You name it, I shoot it. And I LIKE this new Mathews. I do have a really nice '14 Hoyt Carbon Sypder Turbo that is going to find the auction block now though.
Every year I try to shoot all the new stuff. Every year one bow seems to impress me. Last year it was the Carbon Spyder Turbo, this year it is the Mathews HTR No Cam. Like I said somewhere else, I actually ordered a CHill R but after a couple rounds ended up with the HTR. Draw is so subjective, and one seems to get used to the draw cycle no matter what you shoot. After putting quite a few arrows throw the HTR, the draw feels great, there is little to no vibration and the arrow goes where you want it to. A great combination.
good to hear guys are really finding success with this new bow. the cable protector had me scared right away, but sounds like these bows are finding a home and guys like them. Good for Mathews!
Thanks for sharing your review guys.
I think it is really interesting that this bow which has not been touted as a speed bow, is converting people to it on "shootability" alone. Seems like the trend has been to get the fastest bow out there no matter how it felt in hand.
"The "round wheel" technology isn't necessarily the same either. Round wheel bows 25 years ago were thick and smaller, remember? Even cams back then were smaller and look at the size of some today. The cables wrapped around the wheels a couple of times in many models. This wheel only has one cable going around it and it is thinner. Seems like there was a lot of hype with cams a couple of decades ago... "
That's only because bows from 25 years ago were 40" ATA. A cam or wheel the diameter of todays 30" ATA bows would have given the olden days bows a 40" draw length. The concept remains the same.
For poops and grins, I concocted a 460 gr. arrow and my 2014 #60/27.5" Carbon Spyder Turbo (probably more like 62-63# in typical Hoyt fashion, never measured) shot 254 fps.
I haven't yet shot the dual cam "no cam", but it will be interesting to see if the draw curve is as nice as advertised, or if it just seems nice compared to other bows with the same draw weight when a more accurate comparison would be against other bows with a 10-15# lower draw weight (i.e. bows generating similar levels of energy).
Interesting Matt. Let us know. I will do a similar test today with my 60 lb. Spyder Turbo 29 draw vs. my 28.5 No Cam in the same llb'age. IMO in typical Mathews fashion, my no cam appears to run 1/2" long.
For Grins and Giggles, here are some comparison numbers I ran today between the '14 Hoyt Carbon Spyder Turbo (29 draw @ 64 lbs.) vs. '15 Mathews No Cam Htr (28.5 draw @ 61 lbs.) Both bows shooting an Easton ACC 3-60 weighing in at 410 grains. I really wanted to do an apples to apples comparison on poundage but decided both rigs are shooting too good to mess with them. I think the draw lengthss of these two bows are almost identical, leaving them 3 lbs. apart on poundage.
Hoyt 276 fps
Mathews 253 fps
I was slightly disappointed in the Mathews thinking it would be at least 260-265 fps, but what a difference in sound and vibration at the shot. Not that the Hoyt is bad, but with the Mathews there is nothing but the sound of the arrow hitting the target.
About all this "test" did is give one some idea of "real life" speeds of these bows. Going down to a 388 grain arrow (the arrow I'm using with the Mathews), the speed jumped to 261 fps.
It has a few good qualities like I said. The biggest downfall for me was the little plastic widgets to protect the cable from the cam. I shot a few different Matthews the same day I shot the no cam. The chill series just seem to shoot in draw better for me.
I love the way this bow draws, holds, and shoots. But I shoot heavy arrows and have a short draw, although I'm not a speed freak. There is no way I'm going sub 240fps, it's just a personal preference thing.
Cory, I don't know if you have any interest in looking into this (since I know you are not into tinkering with gear ;-), but how are the "manners" of the Hoyt when you back off the poundage to get 253 fps out of it (~10#) in comparison to the no-cam?
Matt...IMO, it would feel like a kids bow and be much more tame. (I get your point) Maybe I'll try that tomorrow if I'm bored as you bring up a great point.
Right now, I can't really "feel" the difference in draw between the two. Backing the Hoyt down 23 fps will feel like I'm drawing 30 lbs. :)
"That's only because bows from 25 years ago were 40" ATA. A cam or wheel the diameter of todays 30" ATA bows would have given the olden days bows a 40" draw length. The concept remains the same."
Of course the concept remains the same, we're talking the level of technology isn't the same. Rotational direction translated into linear motion. Basically a pulley system. And I don't ever remember having a 40" ATA bow with wheels. Maybe 34 or 35, but not 40.
As far as speed goes between the Hoyt and Mathews, what is the delta t (time) downrange in comparison? Doing an honest textbook physics problem neglecting air resistance, the difference of one arrow getting there from the other at those speeds isn't very much.
The delta t at 30 yds assuming an impact velocity at the target of 250 and 227 respectively is around a tenth of a second between each arrow if released at the same time.
So assumining a 30" draw at 60 lbs, maybe 260 FPS?
Corey Thx for taking the time. I've never been into the speed thing and there's nothing wrong with it but it seems at that speed and the arrow I like it will be a lob ball !!!
A tenth of a second is a whole lot of time on an alert whitetail. Plenty of time to turn a good shot into a paunch shot or have a deer duck completely.
I'm in the same boat as RutNut with a short draw. I can easily pull 70 (why don't they make a 75lber?) but I would really like to be at 260fps or a little more while still shooting an arrow with some weight.
Does anyone know what the speeds might be with less let off?
I think Eyad (Hawkeye) was going to try 65% mods. ? And he is one of those "short" draw guys.
Everyone's talking about slow speeds with the No Cam, but I just checked Matthews website and it lists the No Cam at an IBO speed of 330 and the Creed XS at 321? Is this accurate??
No mods in yet but I honestly am not bothered by the "short and slow" part;)
I think I've missed more whitetails with my fast rigs than my sub 250 setups when you think about it.
Maybe I get over confident and don't focus as much when shoot a little quicker? When I throw change ups though I need to pay more attention....:0
The 330 is with the rock mods at 65% I believe.
I hear a lot of people talking about fast bows being hard to shoot/unforgiving. The one nice thing about having a short dL is that the low BH bows don't seem to affect the way I shoot. Sure some of the speed bows I've had weren't as fun to shoot for a long period or in extreme cold. But I have never been less accurate with a bow because it was fast.
"And I don't ever remember having a 40" ATA bow with wheels. Maybe 34 or 35, but not 40."
How long have you been shooting a bow? It wasn't that long ago that 38" was short and there weren't any 34" bows on the market.
"As far as speed goes between the Hoyt and Mathews, what is the delta t (time) downrange in comparison? Doing an honest textbook physics problem neglecting air resistance, the difference of one arrow getting there from the other at those speeds isn't very much. "
The time may (or may not) be a substantive difference, but the difference in trajectory, efficiency, and energy is worth of consideration - especially if you shot past 20 yards. Draw feel is a subjective thing, but I am beginning to question why someone would pull a really smooth 70# when they could get the same performance from a smooth bow at 58#, or you could pull a smooth 70# bow and get way more (20+ fps) performance.
"And I don't ever remember having a 40" ATA bow with wheels. Maybe 34 or 35, but not 40." Holy Cow, my first bow was a Spectra Light Hunter round wheel at 45 inches. Second was a Pro Vantage at 48!! No, that is not a typo!!!! Tiny round wheels on both. Accurate and forgiving finger shooting bows. And, guess what? Shot through deer and bear regularly. I have a 34 inch 2014 Carbon Spyder and have come to hate it as it is unforgiving as all hell, and I have a 26 inch draw. Test shooting Elite's now, just need to decide on E35 or Synergy 35. The Spyder has a nice solid wall and draws very nicely, but if you let up a micro meter at draw, it is gone. The Elites, you actually have to shove them ahead to let them down. I have shot Hoyts since 1988, but am changing.
For all who have been having a good time with my recent posts - been shooting compounds since the mid 80's. And, still never had a longer ATA bow.
The common sense thing tells me that animals that "jump the string" are already in the process of doing so before the shot is even released. I've witnessed that with mule deer while hunting out of tree stands. 0.10 seconds is a pretty darn short amount of time, I don't care who or what you are.
The only biggest contributing thing between a bow that shoots an arrow at 272 fps and 254 fps is trajectory and being able to sneak an arrow through a narrow shooting lane. That was the conversation back in the late 80's and early 90's "the faster the bow, the less parabolic the flight, and the less of a tendency to hit a branch or something." The other thing is this KE nonsense. KE, Shmayee. If you really want to gain a good appreciation of the energy momentum thing, start looking at calculus and first order derivatives and integrals.
I bought a Mathews No Cam and am looking forward to when it arrives. The No Cam will end up killing thousands of whitetails, mule deer, antelope, elk, and hogs regardless of how "ssslllloooooowwwwww" it is.
The second and third paragraphs above should be fun for someone to "quote" and disprove - so knock yourself out...
Over and out.
How does the draw compare to.. say a Drenalin?
I would rather have a faster bow with one pin out to 35 yds than a 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 yd pin. So that speed does pay off in that area.
"For all who have been having a good time with my recent posts - been shooting compounds since the mid 80's. And, still never had a longer ATA bow."
What bows were you shooting in the 80's that were 34"-35" ATA?
Here is a link to a blast from the past, highlighting many of the popular bows from the 1990-1995 range. The only ones that lists the ATA is the 1991 Martin Onza at 43", Suretrack Centennial at 42" ATA/Teton Scout at 41" ATA, and the 1995 Alpine Grand Teton at 38" and 40". Note how short the riser is on the Alpine. With the limb geometries of the day, it was difficult to get a bow much under 40" ATA.
