Bowsite.com

Have some on the way to test out. I also shot the slick trick D6 and on par with the regulars-accurate and sharp :)

It is a single beavel head that has a 40 degree cutting edge. It is a 2 blade with a tanto style tip.

There is a pretty neat thread on AT showing the penetration of a helix in a cow leg bone. It blew through that bone no problem on a 423 grain total arrow weight.

I think I am going to give them a try this year as well as the steel force phat head.

I just ment that I will by trying this head next season and that I am VERY impressed with it like the SlickTricks the past few seasons.

You should see the ability of this single bevel to split bone. WOW! I did a search of this site and could only find one mention of it in the past year, so I thought some of you would be interested in this lesser known broadhead.

i would like to try some but i am stacked up on heads...

Have you shot these yet? I'm very interested in how they fly. I've seen the bone splitting demo. It's very impressive to say the least!

I'm probably going to have them in my quiver this fall.

Longest shot was about 32 yards. Longest blood trail was maybe 60-70yards, the others were 20-30 yards one goat was maybe 5. Rocks damaged one head and another I still have to go back to the tree it's buried to the threads in and get it. I have my doubts as she snapped the shaft off when she jumped, likely bent the ferrule. Long story, on another island.... but if I ever get back there I have it GPSed... The heads were both damaged/stuck after pass through. But pretty light game, not much of a penetration test.

Got them specifically to see what they did with bone when the sshot was off a bit, I like to shoot fairly tight to the shoulder. The favorite COC 3 blades seemed to "stick" in the bone more rather than break it like I've seen two blades do many times. In theory the two blade single bevel, tip, thickness and blade angles.... they should be near the top of that category.

Only real issue for me was sharpening. Must have a touch of ADD, but with the regular diamond stone they can take forever, you have 6 separate blades and angles to sharpen and several of them you have to use the corner edge of the stone. Plus the cheapskate in me started to worry about prematurely wearing out the corners of a $120 stone.

Anyway, the 3 pack is down to one that's already killed one doe and is still in good shape. But trying out another two blade head now that I'm real anxious to put it on some game soon. It looks and shoots great so far, we shall see. I'll have one Helix in the quiver though. Mostly to bother the OCD guys I hunt with.... =D

If I could figure a good quick simple way to sharpen the Helix I might try them again at some point. I'm thinking something along the lines of using the worksharp and then the flat stone to deburr and finish it up.

Most hunters recommend a simple two blade head for kids and heavy African game. My kids are pulling about 35 pounds, so this head was interesting to me at the start. The bone splitting properties of the single bevel design sealed the deal for me to try out.

Lift would only be provided by two different air pressures flowing across the plane of the broadhead.

There is enough surface area on a broad head to support that. Well not enough energy to project an arrow far enough to get lift.

Simply Google how a plane provides lift.

The broad head would also have to be perfectly level to provide lift. You would not be able to use a helical on your feathers or vanes either.

How in the hell does a broad head steer anything??? Steering is an act of changing a trajectory during mid course.

I will stick with my new Montecs and enjoy these types of threads!

Steering is also holding a line or not turning, so possible perhaps. As far as lift, well I agree with you.

People piss and moan when I post about Rage and say they are weak and dont penetrate, but when presented with a clearly stronger and better penetrating head than their own they make excuses to not change.

Ill stick with Rage for the 2" cut and my 500 grain arrows provide enough weight for good penetration.

Why stick with a small 3 blade or 2 blade double bevel? Is it because they are weaker and dont penetrate as well?

Enjoy your crow...

Just like a spoiler on the back of a car. The car engine provides forward thrust while the rear spoiler due to wind traveling over it pushes down on the car to allow better traction.

I am sure we have a pilot or two on this site that can explain better than I can.

LOL, define "forward thrust" You do realize that a propeller is nothing more than a wing right?

What about a helicopter? That's known as a rotary wing aircraft rather than a fixed wing aircraft.

A hectic opted is flown by controlled thrust. Instead of forward its upward and sideways .

The main rotor blades are tilted in a variance of 360 degrees to a limited angle and the back smaller blades keep the helicopter from spinning out of control hence controlled thrust

A fighterjets wings have very little lift but are flown on controlled thrust and rutters which control air direction.

I would think this would aid in rotation of the arrow going thru tissue and bone.

Give this some thought, if you put an airplane into a banked turn, the wings are not still level with the ground, which direction are the wings generating the lift. Hint: directly straight away from the top surface of the wings, not directly away from the "perfectly level". If you fly a plane straight at the ground, which direction are the wings creating lift? Turn a wing on it's side and screw it to the front of an airplane and make it spin, which direction is lift being created?

Lots of things create lift, the sail on a sail boat creates forward lift. the keel on a sail boat can create lift. look at the definition of lift and you may understand what i'm saying.

The sail catches wind and creates forward thrust not lift.

A rutter just like a rutter on a pairplane creates control over such forward thrust.

Regardless a broad head does not steer or or create lift unless it did not rotate. Hence as it spun 90 degrees or 180 degrees it would then veer to the left or right or down to the ground.

I believe the guy (Strickland) is a nice and good guy but I am calling BS on his interpitation on flight steering (basic physics) is way off!

It's 100% BS marketing in my opinion!!!!

L = (1/2) d v2 s CL

The lift on the catamarans is lifting one side up because of force pushed against the sail going in the opposite direction. A keel stops a typical sailboat from flipping over.

That's the reasons catamarans tip over per say. If the sail created lift they wouldn't tip over. The pontoon that is in the air is just a counter balance from tipping. That's why the boats men sit on them, for counter balance basically the same way a keel in fact works or its function.

I'm not going to argue anymore one basic physics? I have provided actual definitions on lift, keel, etc. and you counter with a written article not scientific evidence.

What's next a bullet provides lift within its own design? For those that believe that are wrong also.

Props don't create "thrust" like a jet engine does. They themselves can either pull the plane (or in some cases push it) the lift directly effects the prop itself just like a wing. All it needs is air to flow over it. A wing gets it's airflow from the motion of the plane, a prop creates it's own motion by spinning. That's all. They work by the same exact principal.

A single bevel blade will create a bit of spin, a bit. A small "lift" on one blade and the opposite lift on the other. Same as you get bit of spiral into the target with a single bevel, more pressure on one side of the blade than the other.

Spin however is not what stabilizes arrow flight. They don't spin fast enough to overcome much. Drag from fletching is by far the greatest effect. It's why target arrows don't even need to spin to be accurate.

"Spin" is important for broadheads because it equalizes what planing effect the broadhead might have. Instead of say planing right 3" at 20, 6" at 40, etc. on down range, if you spin the arrow it will go 1" right, 1" down, 1" left, 1" up, 1" right again, etc. on down range in a "cylinder" of flight rather than continuing to plane the same direction on downrange.

Their sales pitch is technically true. Their blades do create a bit of opposing lift which create a bit of spin or rotation. Exactly how fletching spins a shaft or the way a wing creates lift, high pressure on one side and lower on the other. But in this case a much smaller scale. But in reality I don't think that gives any noticeable or measurable advantage to the head.

The tiny bit of extra spin a single bevel may impart would be the very last reason to shoot one. Nor penetration, the rotation in media means it has to cut more material in the same distance. It would hinder penetration if anything. The edge design itself has a tendency to roll in theory as it is unsupported on one side. The only real benefit I can see is an advantage in breaking bone rather than trying to force it's way through. That was the reason they interest me. And still do to some degree.

"The lift on the catamarans is lifting one side up because of force pushed against the sail going in the opposite direction. A keel stops a typical sailboat from flipping over."

Kelly, if you are sailing into the wind, with the wind coming from 10* over your bow, how does the boat generate forward propulsion if it were not creating lift?

Kelly, first of all, let me make sure you understand, this is not about a particular hull style. This is about aerodynamics. This is an effort to show you that whether you use a propeller, a rotor, a fixed wing or a sail to achieve propulsion, the force that's in play is all the same, it's lift.

Vpa 150 penetrator Axis 340 Total weight 473

Then the upper knuckle or thicker part I upped the weight... Helix 100 grain with a brass hit insert in a 300 spine axis total weight 530 ish

Vpa 150 grain 300 spine axis with standard insert total weight 530 ish

The reason for the 100 grain helix is because it's cutting diameter is the same as a Vpa penetrator. If I would have used a 150 helix then the test wouldn't be fair due to the wayyyy bigger cutting diameter.

How do they provide lift?

Looks like 2 different leg bones? Perhaps shoot it thru something with exact amount of density?

Also how well do they perform on a spin test using a arrow spinner?

Is that a small screw which holds it all together? If so the the head of the screw is going to weigh more than the end where the threads start correct? Not sure but are the heads designed to offset that weight?

Once again lift is created by airflow going over a planes wing. By a flat surface on the bottom and the top curved. Creating the wind ok actually air pressure to move upward over the wing which pulls the wing upward.

for a Broadheads to have lift would need to be built like a planes wing, yes one sided bevel equally on each side would create spin to a small portion but not lift.

Please watch full video

A section of anything that has flat sides equal to each other will not create lift unless forced into an angle.

Question: Why would one want a broadhead to provide lift? How would it affect FOC and would it provide consistent lift/trajectory throughout the shooting distance as the speed decreases?

I thought that since it takes longer, or it has more distance of travel, it would translate or be assumed to be faster...call it what you want.

"Kellyharris is correct. A cross section of a planes wing will show a flat bottom and a curved or convex top. Since it takes longer for the air to go over the top than the bottom it creates a lifting effect."

Except for the wings that are not shaped like that. Such as a symmetrical wing that aerobatic planes use.

I couldn't find a photo of what I'm looking for but this You tube video shows a Christen Eagle, which is a plane that I have a lot of time in. You can see in some of the angles that they show that the wing is the same shape on top as on bottom. Like I said, you can create lift with anything, it just has to have the right angle of attack. stick your arm out the window of your car while you are traveling, parallel to the ground with palm down pitch you hand up, your arm goes up, that's lift, point your arm at the ground, pitch your hand slightly either away from the car or toward the car you arm will move depending on which way you pitch your hand, that's also lift.

Kellyharris, Tim will be texting me his clarification on lift and steerage. I could give you my interpretation but I'd rather you hear from Tim himself.

The prop and the wing and the copter blade all work on exactly the same principal within the same physics. The prop IS a wing. That is a fact. It is the air moving over a "wing" that causes lift. That lift can either lift a plane upward or pull a prop (with the plane attached) forward. Same thing. It just that on a prop you have to physically move the prop through the air. Spin it.

That is indisputable. It's physics 101. It's what you are taught when you study to become a pilot. It's what you study when you get into designing and building planes as well. I've been studying kit planes for the last 40 years. It's cool stuff, someday....well, you never know.

Again, in theory the single bevel will impart some spin on the arrow. A little. Each blade creates some "lift" in opposite directions. Exactly how helical or offset fletching does. At worst it's not fighting the rotation as a double bevel would with the apparent wind, the wind the broadhead "sees". And again... that effect is likely so small it you be hard to measure the difference in real world testing.

I know for a fact the head rotates into a foam target where the double bevels do not, they pull straight back out in comparison. You have to "unscrew" single bevels when pulling them out. I would assume they did the same in flesh.

I not sure what the advantage to that would be just as I'm not sure the advantage of multiple blades cutting the same material would be. It would be hard to prove one or the other would kill anything any faster, much less deader. 4 animals with the Helix and the longest recovery was maybe 60-70 yards. And that was only one, the rest far shorter, in sight. But pretty much everything does with any sharp broadhead. I shoot to the "V" from ground level. Thus my interest in performance on bone.

For every advantage a design gives, that advantage comes with a trade off somewhere else. All of them, every single one. It's why the search goes on.....

Their is a provisional patent on the helix for this very reason. A double bevel spins the way the fletchings want it to, at impact at stops and does NOT rotate in the target the bevels are "fighting " each other. The helix will aid the fletchings in making it spin whichever bevel and whichever way you fletched ....upon impact just like other single bevels they continue to rotate , this is fact , they can't not rotate or also can't rotate opposite the bevel. The medium it hits causes it to rotate, this is also fact. Not just internet guys making stuff up.

Just like a fighter jet.

My IQ dropped 30 points just listening to that tool for three minutes!

It looks like a decent head but, lift!..and steering!?..that deserves a big WTF?..over!

Look deeper than the quick google search you did on line for answers, the websites you found with a quick search aren't giving you much info, they are providing basic info simplified.

I've been told (PM) that someone didn't want to publicly embarrass me for the mispelling.

Well I would like to apologize to everyone for any mispelling during this thread???

WTF?????????

These are the same BS reasons I have been off Facebook for well over a month now!

I do believe a BH can create life and steer an arrow, but if I manufactured a BH that had a strong predilection to do so, it would be my best kept secret.

They all "steer" to some degree, every single FBBH. Even most mechs to some degree. It's the reason FBBH benefit from spinning via helical, or offset or designs such as quickspins. To equalize the planing effect... or "steering".

I don't recall "steering" if that was what was claimed in sales. I haven't read up on them in quite some time. If your company has a sales dept you likely know how all that works.

WRT to "lift" I would say is how they are are trying to explain to the casual observer that is exactly what happens with each individual blade in a single bevel.... on paper at least. The physics behind the claim is exactly how fletching imparts rotation on an arrow shaft. It would be proven in a wind tunnel test.

Again, real life... the amount.... very debatable.

The physics behind the claim... no.

Killed everything I shot with them though. On to checking out another head.... the search continues... may be back, never know...

Matt... Don't worry this "dude" isn't here long. Posted pics because I was asked too. Never said buy them. You can if you want or not. It's not about agreeing with me it's about understanding and agreeing with facts about how certain broadheads work before nonsense is spouted off. This one in particular , single bevels have been around long before we were here. This is not "new" technology.

As far as Seth goes. He seems to be a good guy from what I have seen on AT. He does a lot of testing of different broadheads. His threads always appear to be informative over there.

But I think even he would agree that broadheads are best described with the terms stability,durability and penetration.

The more your broadhead is affecting flight, using whatever term you choose, the bigger your problem with getting good flight.

Some guy figured out along time ago that if you spin an arrow you stabilize it.....

Stabilizing it to offset the effect the front end is having on flight.

Again, I think this discussion about lift & steering is distracting about the other strong points this head appears to have. I look forward to trying them out myself.

Beat you to it, Charlie. :)

Maybe the answer is embedded in this thread somewhere that I didn't see.....How do they shoot? Accurate? Consistent? Performance in a cross wind?

If we can't hit our intended target, nothing else matters.

Mark

I'm a pilot and in addition to the basic "what makes a plane fly" training I also had my share of physics back in the day.

Propellers, rotors and wings all create lift based on the same principle and that is Bernoulli's Principle. The lift created by the propeller results in the thrust necessary to overcome drag and create relative wind, but it is still lift.

Air that hits the front of a moving wing does not take longer to pass over the top of the wing. To the contrary, air that goes over the top of the wing and the back of the wing arrive at the back of the wing at the same time and therefore the air moving over the top travels faster which results in a decrease in pressure.

Oh and BTW kelly, do you know why a spoiler is called a spoiler? Not because it pushes the car down but because it "spoils" lift. Some airplanes also have spoilers that are deployed to spoil lift.

This may be a good broadhead but I agree that Mr. Strickland chose a poor choice of terminology.

I have edited this, because I forgot to add to this pos,t that I learned the same thing as Cheesehead Mike, in my flight training. However there were several things regarding how or why airplanes fly that never made sense to me.

It seems that Bernoulli's is one of the factors in supporting lift but not the only factor.

This makes sense to me because according to Bernoulli, there is no reason a symmetrical wing should fly.

Also in the previous link I posted where that shows the aerobatic airplane, there is a segment where the plane is making a low pass along the runway doing a "knife edge maneuver" Where plane is rotated so the wings are vertical to the ground.

Remember, the wings create lift in any orientation, they don't know how they are oriented to the ground. They just know how the relative wind is traveling over the surface and create lift away from the upper part of the wing. In other words if the plane is rotated so the wings are 45* from the flat ground, the lift is created 45* away from the flat ground etc. In this aerobatic maneuver, the wings aren't creating lift in a manner that will keep the plane airborne, it is relying on lift generated by the fuselage and rudder, obviously not an efficient way to generate lift but it works enough to keep the plane from falling out of the sky. If Bernoulli's principle were the sole reason for lift, the plane would fall out of the sky.

This is why broad heads and even bare arrow shafts can create lift, even though they don't possess the traditional airfoil configuration. In common archery nomenclature, people talk about "planing" Planing is nothing more than the arrows reaction to all or part of it creating lift.

Makes sense. Very interesting and thanks for the explanation bb. Ironically, have always been interested in flight and its principles, enjoyed physics (have had therapy since then...;)

I think this stuff is interesting regardless if it applies to broadheads or not I think.

oops wrong site. :)

anyway that looks like a head I would like to do some testing with myself, thanks SCP

Seeing this test by Sethro side by side, it sure appears that that Helix single bevel is the real deal.

If you look at them... their design... they are vented. They are just "vented" on the outside rather than from the inside. Total surface area is likely comparable to many "vented" heads.

Less than perfect hits are not all the same.

If the less than perfect hit is in gut I would say a two inch mech would be better than any 1 1/8" two blade, but then you pretty much have to back off the "V".

Performance with much bone is on the other end of lists of strong points of mechs.

If less than perfect is forward in some heavier bone... the leg on a doe I hit on exit... it blew right through it. She went nowhere. But again... I think there are a few that might have done that as well. Wasn't a demanding test. But flying colors FWIW.

And they are still a PITA to resharpen.

" The only proof of things contributing to bloodtrails is shot placement and if their is an exit hole...everything else is speculation and opinions."

You're not helping this startup company's cause

If you don't think shot placement is number one for Bloodtrail then not sure what to tell ya. Your in a small small group that wouldn't agree. That's general knowledge. Also I'm just a fan of the head because of it's performance furthermore "startup" company? They have been on the market since 2007 sooooo maybe do a little research first?

"THE ONLY PROOF OF THINGS CONTRIBUTING TO BLOODTRAILS...."

Now you say...."a main factor" which is much different and something that a sane person can digest

Thanks for the edit,I feel better that your now telling me it's not raining

P.S I read Ashby years ago

Genesis has already put broadheads through twice as many live animals as you will in your lifetime. You are not speaking to a 20 year old kid on AT. I am pretty sure he is not disagreeing with shot placement being of utmost importance just that it is the "only proof" with regard to blood loss.

Edit: Looks like I was correct in my assumption and he was much quicker posting than I. :)

Large heads reduce the amount of tracking. The last 13 I shot with Simmons...I tracked 3 if them. The rest I heard fall or saw fall. 3 out of the 13 were hit in the lungs or heart.

You basically can get an idea what most fixed heads will do by trying 3 heads. A Muzzy will pretty much cover many other heads like the old savora, satalites, the smaller Rocky Mountains etc. Snuffers will cover montec and vpa. Zawikee will cover many of the trad style heads. After that you would only need to sample some mechanical heads and the stand alone heads like Simmons.

I would say in 2 seasons if shooting several animals and maybe a hog hunt or two and you could try most all types of heads and be really close to finding that perfect head.

...as well as the words there, their, and they're. ;-)

What a world it would be if it only happened on forums......... :)

I now know that a company has that very design available for sale,thanks for the heads up of this availability and the time it took to reaffirm this attribute.

I would not want to depend on this head to induce peritonitis in case of errancy like other designs and for that reason,I'm out.....

They are the thickest and toughest "looking" broadhead I have held. Will be hard pressed to get me away from my tricks for whiteys but I could see this head being a beast on elk or bison etc.

Plus for Gods sake..they look cool. Ha ha. Looking forward to testing them on my FMJs. Tis the season for tinkering....

Inquiring minds want to know!

Mark

When you consider a head has to do more than just penetrate bone, and poor hits are possible, heads need to have the size for hits too far back and durability for the occasional shoulder blade.

1 1/4" is solid hole and my problem on lost animals has usually been poor penetration on poor shots (shoulder, brisket etc). I may not use these but enjoy testing new products. It not only is fun, but I feel I learn something new each time, which can only help.

The study and time spent in research can be illuminating at times. Every little piece and part helps with the puzzle, if nothing else you know which pieces DON'T fit in some places.... sometimes it even helps in unrelated things.

In fact when I want Coach to leave me alone I often go into a little one man broadhead debate......works every time....

First, I am most impressed at the build of this head. It is a beast and would have no issue with shooting it at the biggest game on four legs. One pain is pulling from my Rinehart as it does indeed “twist” into the target. A great benefit on game but targets need to take that into account. I eventually found a soft spot and was able to unscrew it after each shot and then pull the arrow out. A pain but was effective and worked the best without tearing my target up.

At 20 yards it flew on par with my field tips, planning once when I pulled a shot by 4”. I watched the flight and with 2” vanetecs at 1 degree helical it shot great.

The blades are still sharp and I can’t imagine a better penetrating head. Looking at it, and comparing it to my exodus and slick tricks, it does have a much larger surface area, and thus, I would "assume"it would be more prone to errors in form, tune and at long distance.

This again is an assumption. What I also assume is that it will out penetrate both heads no questions asked. One has to ask how much penetration you need on the game you hunt etc., but if there is any question that you have low # or penetration concerns, would be at the top of my list.

Pros: Sharp, thick blades, feel and act like they have great construction and would have ZERO question on durability shooting into any animal.

Cons: Hard to pull from target and larger surface area so “maybe” not as accurate at long range or with less than perfect form/tune.

Like anything in archery …you can’t have it all but if I was hunting bison or elk again soon, Id seriously consider these heads. Will test outside in the weeks to come.

Prove it.