Log Hunting Cabins
General Topic
Pat.
I own a wildlife control business and do mostly flying squirrel and bat removals, and I specialize in log homes. I live in a vacation area and there are many, many log homes here that are well over 10,000 square ft with no expense spared. Log homes are my bread and butter, and I love seeing them, but at this point am not sure I would ever own one especially a kit.
Almost every home I work on the people say it is their first and last log home. Lots of bug and critter issues as well as weather.
The maintenance alone isn't worth the hassle. they have to be stained every 5-7 years, chinking, and on and on.
If I was you and you were dead set on this I would seriously consider going with what they are doing here now on the nicer log homes. first they build the home with 2x6 construction, then split the logs in 1/2 lengthwise and place 1/2 the log on the inside and the other 1/2 on the outside. They line up perfectly and most people wouldn't ever realize it is a stick frame home. You get all the benefits of a conventional home as well as the looks and feel of a log home without the issues. You still have the exterior maintenance however
michael
Log homes really add the outdoor/hunting vibe to any property and look AWESOME!
Only complaint I have ever really heard about them is maintenance as the wood will have to be treated pretty often to preserve it's look and extend the life. I have a family friend that built a house with cedar shingles and it looks really cool an pretty rustic, but he regrets it now (20 years later) as he is nearly 65 and the mainenance and treating of the exterior is a pain and not getting any easier as he ages!
On the other hand, if Matt is willing to pick up the maintenance as you age....you're golden!
I always said I'd have one too then learned of the maintenance. I still want one today but shooing away ever breed of squirrel and woodpecker all the time would not be my preference. I am not fond of painting of any kind and glad now that I went with a no maintenance cabin. Cutting the grass is enough for me.
Pat, we were going to go with log for the aesthetics, then considered "D log" siding as mn_archer describes. However, after talking with a number of friends who built log, we decided to go more maintenance-free. Wood grain Hardy composite siding. Looks great, requires virtually no treatment, and saved a bunch on our fire insurance.
Here in CO it's so dry that any natural wood needs to be treated regularly. Especially on south-facing mountainsides where we are. My friends spend a lot of time on scaffolding while I'm fishing and scouting. Several of them have told us they wish they'd done what we did instead of log, now after the fact.
Log has a nice aesthetic, but I'm so glad we went the other direction.
Too much maintenance Pat. Have you considered stone? A little more $$, but low maintenanve. Another very good option is cement block cabin as they make some with the finished side in some attractive patterns and the price is low Lasts forever too.
6x6 beams, stack im up, screw them down, easy peesy.
I built a log house in 1992. It was 44' X 28' and had three bedrooms and three baths with a full walkout basement. Sort of a kit in that the logs were milled. Ten inches in diameter and double tongue and grooved, no chinking. My exterior maintenance took less than a full day. I masked off windows and doors and sprayed my sealer/stain with a 2 gallon pump up sprayer. The more elaborate the house the more difficult to mask and spray. I no longer have the house as I sold it to move for my job.
I have heard that a wrap around covered deck can greatly reduce the wear on the logs & stain. Is it true?
Pat
I live in a log home and love it. We have a kit from Hearthstone. I only recommend square logs for humid areas. The sapwood is hewn off leaving the heartwood, a much more stable and rot resistant produce. The space between the logs is filled with insulation and a chinking product. Use a high quality sealer on the logs that will last for many years and the maintenance is not much different than a conventional house.
I built a cedar log house from a kit in 1988. 1806 sq. ft. sunken living room cathedral ceiling in over half of it. D shaped milled logs, double tongue and groove. Maintenance is staining the outside about every 6 years. Inside is clear polyurethane. Never had to anything to the inside logs yet. No different then cedar sided house. Love it!
Pat, I have done quite a bit of research now for years regarding log cabins hoping to build one someday.
I would stay away from the kits personally...more cons then pros when an entire kit is purchased.
When I build mine it will be 6x6 Douglas fir or pine timbers. Butt and pass method built on site with a concrete slab or half basement.
Still retain the cabin look and feel but less maintenance and less money going with square timbers.
We built our from a kit in 2004 and couldn't be happier. I have had to respray mine with stain/bug repellant twice in 10 years. We have had a problem with lady bugs in the fall but no worse than neighbors with regular houses. There is just something about sitting down in front of the fireplace in a log cabin after a long cold day of hunting that just can't be reproduced.
There has been a few cracks in the logs but I have not had any problems with logs coming apart or anything like that. Maintence has not been any worse than with our brick main house where we live.
Good luck
I thought about it also, but went with metal all around and tried to keep the cabin theme on the inside. That's where we spend most of the time anyway. At 68 I don't want any outside maintenence past mowing the yard !
I can say log cabins is my business, I restore 25-30 a year. maintenance isn't that big of a deal if you stay on top of it. you can pretreat the logs with a product called penetrete(to protect from bugs/termites) before you stain. use a quality stain like sashco or permachink.(you wont find these in home depot). every 3 years or so pressure wash the cabin and put another clear coat on.
if you neglect a log cabin it will bite you in the ass quickly.
I would recommend not having any exposed decks, or logs that stick out farther then the roof lines.
trex decking will last a lot longer then wood, but the cost is more then double.
Carpenter bees make log cabins fun. All you need is a good quality badminton racket. My personal best was 32 in a 2 hour period.
Seriously, They can be an issue and it is fun to whack them with a badminton racket. I look for holes during the day then after dark when they get into them I spray insect killer in the hole and fill the hole with plastic wood or another wood filler.
I will be building a cabin in Colorado in the future and it won't be a log home. It will be of the same construction as my home residence: A SIPS constructed home. I have a 3000 square ft 2 story SIPS and my electric bill is less than $200/month (most homes of this size conventional built run $250-350/month for the same size). And we recently had 2 weeks when the temp didn't get above 45 and with our woodburning stove, the heater hardly ever kicked on.
There is a learning curve there, but basically you are building a cabin with building blocs that contain the exterior skin (OSB), the insulation (polystyrene) and the interior skin (OSB) all in one step. We put hardiplank siding painted like wood and a metal roof. It looks rustic, but is basically fire proof. And the exterior is basically maintenance free.
And you can easily do all the work yourself. We started with a ranch cabin here in Texas that has a 960 sq ft slab and a loft. Started on it Friday morning, and had the entire structure up by Monday Afternoon with 4-6 guys and NO big equipment, all by hand. There is also no attic, because the roof panels are the same as the wall panels, so it is easy to make cathedral ceilings, a loft, and a second story. You should research them and see what you think.
Another option is to build it stick built and use srayed in foam insulation instead of the panels. It is cheaper than way. I know why you want a long home. They look great! I wanted one bad at one time, but after building and living in a SIPS, I wouldn't do anything else. You can make the outside look like anything you want, including log siding
Pat, I'm and distributor and builder. PM me if I can help you in any way. This is our new show home that I'm working on.
That's funny you mentioned SIPS homes txhunter. ive only heard that name one other time. A customer has a home with sips panels and somehow bats were getting through them. we took care of the issue on the exterior but ive only ever heard of those panels on this one home.
michael
We use the SIPs on our timber frame homes. You can get them with T&T on one side which makes the finishing very fast. txhunter you are correct, the homes are very tight.
Pat, I live in a log home . A kit I put together back in 83'. I also have a home that is regular framed with log face. I prefer the framed style. no matter what the log company claims, you will experience cracks and shrinking. also if you wish to add electric or plumbing at a latter date its very difficult
I would love to rent it a week in spring..really!!
One of the reasons SIPS are so tight is that there just are no cracks to have air leaks like there are in conventional or log homes. You are basically building an ice chest for a house. In fact, the cabin we built with a fireplace was so tight the fireplace wouldn't draw. We had to bring in outside air through the wall for it to work. In my home, the air intake into the wood burning stove comes from a pipe though the outside wall directly into the stove: VERY efficient. However, the tightness can produce problems, due to "stale air". An air exchanger in our heating/cooling system fixes that though.
Yep, each new generation of log homes says they have fixed the problems with the older style log homes. And while they probably have come a long way, they have not changed the physical properties of wood logs: shrinkage, warping, weathering, maintenance, the fact that wood catches fire, etc.
This is the kind of thing I am looking at for siding. Looks good, but fiber/cement for fire resistance and lack of maintenance.
http://woodtone.nimbol.com/PDF/RusticSeries/Woodtone_Rustic_Brochure.pdf
Or just use the log exterior siding, but then you have the maintenance issues.
Maybe I'm old fashion but I built mine to have a log cabin hunting camp on my farm not some high tech bunker to make it thru a nuclear explosion . If I wanted a house I would have built a house. But that's just my opinion.
A well built log home will no more leak than a SIPS home. The leaks come from around the doors and windows not through the logs. My log walls are tight without any leaks. But then again I have square hewn logs with chinking. Pat go for the look that you dream about, build a log house.
Gobbler, you have a point, a log cabin just has a lot of appeal. The esthetics are unparalleled. But I also want to sip my favorite beverage by a fire, warm and snug while the cold wind is howling outside. Not playing badminton or filling holes. And not spending my time there on maintenance.
Of course, the dream cabin that we each built is the one that is best! As they say, to each his own.
I know what you mean. Where I am in WV they are only bad in late April into May which is when spring gobbler season is. We can only hunt until 1pm here. So I hunt gobblers in the morning and carpenter bees in the afternoon. LOL
If I was the owner of the world's largest bow Hunting website and money was zero issue as in Pats case I would build it with the logs split in half and attached to my ICF walls! This would make it hurricane and F5 tornado proof as well. I would build my basement with 12 ft walls with a poured slab roof so it could also duplicate as a bunker when it comes time to hunt the zombies! My door going to that basement would be a safe door that can be locked from the basement side. it would look just like a gun safe with winchester or Remington on it. all floorING would be hickory as would the cabinetry. my bar would have custom barrels from jack daniels,jamison, and seagrams distilleries. I would also use composite logs on the outside as well. I would debate on a metal standing seam roof or a Taco vulcanized rubber that looks identical to slate but can be walked on. also in that basement I would have a wine cellar built specifically for ChipT visits.
On my back patio I would have a stone/brick lines pizza oven with pizzas only made using Dino Pizza recipes.I would have a signature drink called the Teaks special.
I would have those special herbs brought in from Colorado or Washington so when Bake, Serb, and kelly harris come in for visits also. My cabin would be right at 95 feet long to I could put a 30 yard indoor archery range in my basement. (I actually saw that in a home years ago)
Also I would have a 21k backup generator hooked up that was run on natural gas. I would have a wood burning stove in the great room along with a fireplace in the kitchen and the master bedroom. don't forget to put a full bathroom off every bedroom to make all the guest feel like they are staying in the master suite. Actually with a sink shower and toilet that can be done fairly cheap! For my bar I would have 3 taps 1 with Miller Lite for when Mrs Harris and I visit the second one with Blue Moon so when sandbrew visits and the 3rd with a leinekugal seasonal tap.
I hope you find those ideas helpful!!!!
I built our log home from 10" diameter with saddle notch corners. It was a milled or kit home. I do not have bug problems, but that has more to do with where we live - high desert.
I would not recommend a home with a corner system referred to as butt and pass.
Our home is super tight and efficient. Most DIY'ers are not capable of building a log home properly, even a kit home. There is more to it then simply stacking logs. Knowing how to install window and door bucks is crucial.
If designed and built right, maintenance is no more then any other painted or stained home. One weekend every 5 years isn't that big of a deal.
I recommend 3-4' roof overhangs and if you have a porch or deck, do not build it flush with the first course of logs. Instead, leave it one step lower.
We spend a lot of time at home with friends and family. For the outdoorsman, there is nothing more relaxing than a well constructed log home. It really changes your mood for the better, especially when you have a warm fire and a few bird dogs to share it with. :)
Pat, go with a good company with an engineering department. Use a log home builder. Stick with a high quality stain for the exterior and don't skip any steps. We use PermaChink products. Bugs and wood bees can be treated in the spring with a pump up strayer. Cracks/checks are a normal stress relief in the log, they will never go past the center if your company uses heart cut cants. Shrinkage in a kiln dried log will be minimal and be over after the first season. If your dream is a log cabin, then go for it. I built my first one in '97 and now my wife loves them and would not live in anything else.
Timely thread for me as well.just completed a dam for a 14 ac lake and looking into cabin options.My sister has lived in a log home and it's been good had to replace some logs and retreat/stain once in 20 years.
Pat,I'm looking into a less authentic options of beveled siding and concrete log siding that looks pretty good.
Upkeep is my number one concern as I want zero! Will go personally view some of these concrete "log" siding homes this spring as the pics look real enough for me
Goat Guide, are your 6x6 beams pressure treated? Where do you source them from?
Goat Guide, Nice! Your cabin looks like a kit? Can you post a link if possible?
thanks, Mark
The idea of using 6x6 beams is great.
I bought a 30'X30' log cabin on 60 acres (logs flat on 2 sides and Perma-chinked) 6 years ago. Added a 14 X30' addition (2 bedrooms) 2 years ago, hired a friend to help me build it from ground up. Had the logs cut flat on 3 sides, interior walls flat, look like big timbers. Exterior matches the look of the rest of house. My wife and I peeled the logs and sanded interior side. We love the real logs, stays cool in summer and easy to heat in winter. I personally don't care for the look of most kits, prefer the real deal but they are likely way more expensive if you are unable to work on it yourself.
We got the logs with a snowmobile and cut them with a portable band saw mill for the cabin above. I have built 5 log buildings in the last 5 years and each one is different. Each one has its own unique look. We never built log cabins before this and just winged it. One was saddle notched, 6x4 beams, 6x6 beams, piece on piece, and square D. I did this square D cabin freehand with a chainsaw and a chalk line, glad I did it but after I was finished I went out and purchased a band saw mill and started using beams. A band saw and a electric planer is a great way to build simple hunting cabin, you can then use the trees on your property.
Here is a cabin out of 6x6's during the start of construction. We tore down the cabin to the right of the square D cabin above and replaced it with this one.
And after it was finished, we used leftover square D pieces from cutting out doors and windows to make the picnic table. To make the airtight we made one pass with the electric planer on the edges and filled it with perma chink.
I was going to do a log cabin until I started reading all the dwelling codes required in my area and it take me long to realize I couldn't justify the added costs, so went with stick-built with half-log siding, and tongue and groove on the inside. Not nearly as nice as log, but plenty rustic and damn cozy!
Lots of good ideas and suggestions on this thread.
I'm a general contractor, and obviously the reality of building in CA (along the coast) and NY is vastly different. However, some considerations are the same all over.
1. What do you want from this place? A rustic cabin to bunk in? A nice second home?
2. How much time are you willing/able to spend doing maintenance?
3. How much are you willing to spend? Are you looking for something that will hold its value (or even better, appreciate)? Or just a simple place to hunt from?
Those are all questions that I ask my customers during design/budgeting phase. Everyone is different and has different ideas/desires. One man's "yeah that sounds fine" is another man's "that's insane". We built a 7 figure "guest home" for a guy last year! It's larger and cost more than the home he lives in. Go figure!
For what it's worth, I always encourage people towards low maintenance and durability. I like Hardi products and, depending on the location, metal roofs.
ben yehuda, good points. Our cabin cost more to build than our primary home is worth, but after asking ourselves many of the questions you posed, we decided we wanted it to be a "second home" we could eventually retire into if we want, vs. the little weekend cabin we originally planned.
Absolutely no regrets.
Jaquomo - glad you and your wife asked the right questions and planned well! Obviously, since building is how I make a living it's a plus when people want to spend money, but I always want people to be satisfied and happy in the long run. I can't count the things I have talked people out of ("spending 10k to build an extra wall in the kitchen and recess a giant TV in it will not really help your resale value", lol)
Pat - those look real nice. Having lived in a basement apartment in my college days I for one will never buy/build a house with a finished basement unless its a walk out. If you have the place to make a walk out possible it's def worth it in my book. A cramped, light less basement is too much like a cave for me.
The water table was too high for basements where I grew up in NC, and they are real uncommon in this part of CA. But a nice walk out is great in my opinion. Plus I like the look of the stone lower half and the logs up top.
You might look at this, ABC siding does steel log siding. I had wood for about 10 years and HATED it, re-stain every 4-5 years at a substantial cost, woodpeckers & squirrels loved it. NO problems since then.
Save the wood for the inside.
Walk out basement is golden. Some of our neighbors on the mountain decided to save a little by not doing a walkout and now regret it deeply
Love my place in southern Colorado. Great views and plent of wood inside and out.
Mt Blanca and Mt Linsey, both over 14,000'
We used 2x6 walls with log siding I have had to stain it twice you will have to do the same with logs. The one thing about doing a wood frame is your not going to have to do some adjusting on your logs as they settle. I also have 6 inches of insulation in the walls and 15inches in the attic. you can finish your walls inside with tongue and grove pine if you don't like sheet rock. One thing for sure do a metal roof. the snow slides off when your not there. we used larch logs to hold up are deck. We did most of the work are selves and we have about $44k in it as it sets 1800sq feet two bedrooms up stairs and two bunk beds set up on the lower floor with a 28x16 work room on the other side
Goat Guide that is awesome what you did. Since the timbers came from your land the cost of material was minimal. Did you use all one species of lumber or did you mix? Would you foresee any problem mixing say oak, maple, elm etc.?
Pat, is the second one just a picture from online or picture of a real house. I know of one that might actually be that house or at least a clone. The one I know about is up the West Dolores river in Colorado, near Dunton. My dream home!
Well, I'm chime in. We built our Colorado home in '96. If you keep up on the exterior maintenance, it's not too bad. Do not use any type of oil stain. We did initially. Every time you redo it, it gets darker and looks like crap. Stripping it and refinishing with the modern latex products was a major undertaking, and expensive, but it was worth it. Just wish we had started that way.
Don't forget interior maintenance. The inside logs need to be dusted every year. Once you have a system down, it takes about a day. (I do all my taxidermy at the same time.)
I would not do a milled log home. To me, they look like stacked dowels. These are local, standing dead Engleman spruce from the Flattops area. Hand peeled, and averaging 16" diameter. The second floor gable is actually framed with the same logs cut in half for siding. Standing dead timber has more "character", with more checks and splits, than trees cut and then dried, and they are a lot more stable, with very little settling or movement after being stacked. Log railings are also a maintenance nightmare. All the mortises collect water and rot out in a few years.
Here's an arial view from a friend's quad-copter.
We are liking this one and can do something similar in phases depending on our needs.Starting with the outside living/kitchen area and moving larger from there in time.my other cabin is 9 hours away and it will be nice to be 10 minutes with a great fishing spot and fair deer hunting
I've lived in two log homes, just renting. I'd never own one, build one or buy one. But I sure do love living in them while someone else keeps up with the maintenance!
pat, in the first photo of the home you posted on 30JAN, I would recommend you extend the roof on the gable end about 4-6 feet. if you do that, the wall logs will be much more protected and will drastically cut down on the maintenance.
This group offers a 2 day class on how to build a Log Home. They don't like kits, and have a lot of info on this site about why that is the case.
They teach the butt and pass method, and the guy who started the "school" is Skip Ellsworth, a fascinating guy with an Interesting story. His son now leads the classes.
Interesting reading and some good information, and lots of nice pictures and stories, if nothing else.
No matter what, get a metal roof!
Goat guide those are awesome little cabins. very talented
little bit more than a hunting cabin...........but absolutely stunning in side ........big and open........one never gets tired of visually wondering the inside spaces.........warm in the montana winters......and yeah for sure.........you absolutely need the cacophony of a metal roof. the kitchen alone here is bigger than my whole downstairs back at my farm house on the eastern shore of maryland.
log homes really become a living part of the family.............
Here is a photo of my log home.
Ace the claims made on that link are outrageous. It's like a late night infomercial on buying and flipping houses with no money. The only person who makes money is the guy giving the course. Ran a dozer into the side of a home with no damage other than a scuff that was sanded out, really? Was it a Tonka toy dozer?
pat, if you go with a metal roof, use what is called the standing seam type. do not use the ribbed metal with exposed fasteners.
with the standing seam, the fasteners are covered by the next row of metal. it is also a heavier gauge steel then the ribbed metal.
i have installed metal roofs and do not like them. i think a good 40-50 year architectural comp shingle is the way to go. metal roofs make maintenance more difficult if you have to clean a chimney or stain a dormer.
Here is our log home which is only four miles from our farm here in northern MO. It does double duty as home and hunting cabin.
"My neighbor tells me getting a CO from those guys is harder than getting a suppressor permit from Eric Holder."
Ha! At least you don't have to worry about the suppressor permit since you can't possess one in NY anyway. :-)
Kit manufacturers don't like folks who claim you can build them better yourself. I've seen several built that way and can tell you they are for real. The one built by Skip is in Washinton, and I think if anyone saw it they'd believe the stories.
Www.montanaloghomes.com These guys are all custom, so not technically a kit but checkout the photos. Thats craftsmanship if I've ever seen it. Anyone have any experience with these guys?
Built in 1972. Completed in 14 days. 4 days to clear site and closed in with-in the next 10 days.
Crestedbutte, THAT is a hunting cabin! Wow you are blessed.
If that was my view you wouldn't have to bury me when I died, just prop me up on the porch because that looks like Heaven!
crestedbutte,i just purchase some land in Montana. Your cabin is exactly what I want to build. Did you do all the work yourself? What type notching did you use? I would love to learn more.
Pat,
Check out Hochstetler Milling from Ohio. I built my log home from them 5 years ago and was/am very pleased with their materials. They can provide building services or will give you detailed building instructions. I committed to buying their material and asked them to send me the instructions 6 months before I was ready for delivery. This gave me time to think through the process before I had a stack of logs waiting on me. I really enjoyed building it. I think someone already mentioned it but I'll say it again...go big on your overhangs (2'min...3' is better). It will help keep the weather off of the stain.
I don't know anything about log cabins; But if I win the lotto............ I'll be giving Pioneer Log Homes of British Columbia a call........
The giant cedars they use really catch my eye more than logs that are all cut the same like D logs.
And if I could afford one of those cabins... Then I suppose I could afford to have someone refinish it for me every few years.....
Here is me at my favorite breakfast spot in the world. My cabin with green roof can be seen in lower valley to the left.
Eagle eye...you are correct. It has been a great hunting cabin over the years and cherished by family and friends who have shared in its comforts. Nothing like stepping off the deck to start a hunt, swimming in the many pools and waterfalls around (COLD!) or hiking up to nearby secluded 106 deg. (year round) hot spring baths that most folks on this earth don't know about. It is small but as South Farm put it in a pm to me...it is truly cozy, comfy and rustic.
South Farm...One day I might just plan to actually be buried up there? It has crossed my mind a time or two as an option. Have a high mountain back country burial, HA!
Liv4it...yes our family (Grandpa, Dad, Uncles and some of the kids) built it. Long before battery charged tools and before we had electricity back in there. Hand tools, hand saws, hammers, slege hammers, chisels, shovels, post-hole diggers and rope were the name of the game back then. Box notch...somewhat similar to square notch. PM me, and I will answer any questions you have.
Keep pictures of those ole hunt'in cabins a coming!
Jeez...looking at this thread, all i know is i need a new job...LOL..
Some of these "Camps" are incredible..
Pat; Ditto on big roof overhangs will help preserve your stain. What will your primary source of heat be?
Pretty good looking working crew standing on the steps there, Crested.
Congrats on it all.
Major envy!
My wife was actually raised at 8,500 feet, with those kinds of views. Don't know why she's bored with south-central Kansas. :-)
Liv4it (Keith)...sent you e-mail with floor plan sketch and additional pic's of my cabin. Also answered your specific construction related questions regarding. Good luck with yours and post pic's of it when you are done.
Good timing that I seen this post again. at 10 am tomorrow am im doing an inspection on a log home that has bats bad. They have no attic space as its all vaulted ceilings and the smell is apparently pretty bad. We are going to look at the options of 1, getting rid of the bats and 2, getting rid of the smell.
there are 2 options for dealing with the smell. 1, tear the entire roof off, decking and all, removing the insulation and then disinfecting and deodorizing. We then replace the insulation, put on a new roof decking, underlayment, and shingles. Option 2 is to go in from the underside but that's the least desireable as the mess is all coming inside the home and we also wont have as much access as we would through the roof.
the only good news in this is we can most likely get the cost of the cleanup covered by the insurance company and for the price of their deductible they get an entire new roof. The insurance company will not cover the cost of removing the bats however.
ill try to get some pictures to post.
michael
I think some of these places deserve the title of Log Mahal. I live in a 900 sq ft Air Lock cabin kit built in '64 by my father. Year round. Heated by a pellet stove fireplace insert.
Built by my dad with the help of my 2 teenage brothers. I was in the Navy at the time. My biggest concern here in AZ is forest fire, so it will get a metal roof this year.
Terry
Some beautiful Cabins! I'm jealous! David
Pat, if you build something like that, you are going to prolly hire some security to keep the locals from breaking in and stealing all your pipes and turning the place into a meth lab. I happen to personally know a retired SF guy who lives in the area and he could maybe help out. LOL Seriously though. I was going to put a camp on my land, and it's about 30 miles from yours. I was told that, "if you build it, they will come." Sorta like the field of dreams, only in this case it would be nightmares. My buddy had his camp broken into several times. His doodlebug had the motor trashed, and they stole his distributor out of in. WTF There are some true lowlifes up here,, sadly. Good luck with what you are doing though. God bless you. Jay
