Contributors to this thread:
You are on your first and probably the only Brown Bear hunt in your life. It's spring on Kodiac island. It's day 9 of a 10 day hunt. You've had dreams of 9-10 ft. bears for the past two years when you booked this trip. You and your guide spotted this bear two hours ago hanging around the entrance to its den and you've made a successful stalk to well within your comfortable range. Wind is in your favor and the bear has no idea you are there. Guide estimates the bear to be 7 1/2 - 8 foot.
If you already have the picture, it sounds like you already decided, so why second guess yourself, unless of course, you have a hunt planned and are considering alternate scenarios before hand, which, if so, you may be out-thinking yourself. Regardless, a lot of thinking, going on,, or lack of thinking, man that is a lot of some kind of thinking.
If I knew full well that you I would not return for brown bear, and would really like to have a prize, then I definitely would take the shot.
Actually a lot would depend on what else we had seen in those nine days, if a big 10 footer was due - like we can put animals on a schedule-, and was mentally up to it, I may pass and wait. But in the end, a once in a lifetime type, destination, hunt, I would prefer to bring home something to hold onto.
Yes. Since I'd be flinging an arrow from my longbow at 15 yards, any bear over 7' is a good bear.
Short answer is Yes, I'd shoot take that bear, especially if it was my first (and probably only) brown bear hunt, and I'd be extremely happy to do it.
I was told a few years back that the average size bear killed in Ak between residence and nonres. was 7'-- so I would say yes !!!
Yes. It's a good animal and the money is already spent. Let one fly !
In your senerio I would shoot. Now if the question was "would you shoot with a rifle from 80 yards?" The answer would be NO.
--Jim
Your on your one and only trip for a browny and you have one day left. An opportunity presents itself with a great bear that is giving you all the green lights for the shot, why wouldn't you take it? to pass because of a foot short is absurd IMO.
JTree, with the intent of this website, really, why did you have to go there? I don't believe the OP asked in which manner, rather, just would you?
Obviously, some here would never shoot a world record animal of any kind at a very reasonable distance with a rifle. While others wouldn't mind the change up, if it were necessary.
Actually though, with your statement, brought forth thought on my end. And one particular friend and I have had the conversation concerning what size animal with which weapon.
In this scenario, I believe it would go something like, if you had been seeing 10 foot bears every day, and for the sake of argument, you could get within rifle distance, but could not get within bow distance and on this, the ninth day, you happen to get within bow range of the said 7.5 footer but knew that you could probably get within rifle distance at least once more before the end of the hunt. Would you take the 7.5 footer with the bow, or would you wait on the 10 footer, knowing that you most likely couldn't get into bow range on the larger bear.
This is all obviously hypothetical, but it seems that we speak in a lot of hypotheticals here.
The arrow is already gone!
Mark
I already shot while you guys were talking about it!
In answer to Full Cry's question... yes, in a heartbeat.
In answer to ToddT's hypothetical... I'd take the 7 1/2 footer with a bow over the 10 footer with a rifle, also in a heartbeat.
You know it's February when we are arguing about what we should or shouldn't be arguing about.
To the OP, my arrow is already gone....
Just curious, for educational purposes only, what is a bear of that size? Meaning, is it mature or not? Or rather, could a bear of this size be a mature female, or even an older female? Or are bears kind of like people, meaning some will only grow to the height of 64 inches and tip the scale at 140 pounds, while others will grow to 78 inches or taller and tip the scales at close to 240 pounds - no matter their age, that is the size they will get. Are bears like this?
I guess one facet for myself is I do attempt to take mature animals, so if I knew full well that the bear was a mature animal, actual size wouldn't play as large of a factor.
Come on now and let us know what you did.
My picture would have been one of the bear snapping at his side where my arrow went thru...
Unless it turns out its a sow with cubs
It's difficult telling a client not to shoot when you know it is probably the hunt of his life. However, as a guide, you have several responsibilities. Two of the most important are making sure your client is having a safe hunt. The next is that he is within the law. Alaska requires Nonresidents to have a guide while hunting Brown bears. There are a lot of reasons for this. One of them is to (hopefully) help your client make an educated decision whether or not to shoot a particular animal. In this scenario, there was a couple of clues given that should have been a huge factor in determining wheatear or not to take this shot. Those two things were the time of year and the size of the bear. Most everyone keyed in on the size of bear, but not for the right reason. This bear was 7 1/2-8 foot, the size of an adult sow. But the most important clue was the time of year, spring. It is illegal to kill a sow occupanied by Cubs. Now what would you do.
I've guided bear hunters in both the spring and fall seasons. (Browns in spring, Grizzlies in the fall) In my opinion, spring is much more difficult for bowhunters. Bears are just coming out of the den. They haven't set up a feeding routine and are wondering all over the place. The fall hunt is much easier because the Bears are concentrated on salmon streams and once you find a bear feeding, it gives you a much better opportunity for a stalk. And you.dont have to worry about a situation like this because the cubs will be much more visible as they are following the sow around everywhere she goes.
my supposition is that the people who answered the question were doing so with the assumption that the question was about would they shoot a legal bear (no cubs) and not would you shoot before confirming it was legal to do so.
then you bring up other considerations that were not inferred with respect to the original question. If you are going down that path each of us should have asked:
where you within legal hunting hours
had you not been airborne within the restricted time frame
was the hunter properly licensed for the area he was hunting in
were you still within legal shooting hours
was the season still open
Was the weapon he was using legal in terms of draw weight, caliber, etc.
if he was bowhunting was thebroadhead of a legal design
were you legally allowed to be on the property where the bear was spotted
was the hunter not otherwise prohibited from hunting based on any other prior game violations that restricted his rights to legally hunt in AK
only with those questions could we have truly answered you question i guess
They had exactly the same information we had. Without the excitement of being there, which sometimes clouds ones judgement.
Same old ethical ambush thread by fullcryhounds, he was just waiting for input so he could "set you straight". Don't feed the troll.
Call it what you want powder. I guess I've been trolling on here since 1997 then. Just sharing some situations that have happened to me that I learned from. Hoping others will do the same and not end up in a bad situation. Much better doing it here when nothing goes south then in the field. Maybe you'd rather not share your learning experiences but I'm not afraid to.
So full cry you're telling us to hunters in the field we're looking at a snapshot versus the live bear where it could be observed for some period of time to determine status
Nick Muche's Link
Here's the video for those that would like to watch it.
http://youtu.be/qzko1u9Z-68
Day 9 arrow on the way if a male. If a legal sow I would still pass.
What a stupid way to justify the guide rule.
At your suggestion I would book in the fall!
I really don't know what to say other than if the details had been made up clear in the Opening post then you wouldn't have anyone to say yes. But, I'm certain you knew that. Which is why they weren't. God Bless
The guide requirement is to back a multi million dollar industry. Nothing more.
Living in a state for 12 months doesn't qualify you to be a more equipped outdoorsman. Same goes for the dumb WY Wilderness Law. It's to guarantee outfitters a client base.
The original post asked a question and it was centered around a once in a lifetime hunt and a dream of shooting a 9 foot plus bear. One day left in the hunt should he shoot or not shoot that particular bear, the assumption is the bear is a legal bear.
I agree that this is an ethical ambush thread.
No i would not shoot cuz we are hunting after the season closed yesterday or before the season opened or..... Same ambush, different parameters.
If you are the guide you should know what your hunter is looking for before this moment.
If it meets his criteria and is legal shoot.
If it's below his standard you say it's not what we discussed. It's about 1 1/2 smaller than what you wanted to shoot.
You make the call.
That's what a great guide does regardless of when in the hunt.
As the hunter, we all talk big games but after 9 days of hunting humility tends to set in and the arrow is usually released. Not always but most.
I am with Greg Simon on this one
If it was a legal bear yes. If not legal than no. I don't know anything about bear regs in Alaska but if I were going I would and so would all the people you baited into saying yes.
The first thing I thought was...are there cubs in that den? But I guess if you never have hunted spring bears maybe the thought would not cross your mind.
Bunch of sloppy hunters saying they would shoot in a heart beat, now they are back tracking blaming the poster. Who would you blame in the field after you shot and figured it out?
I think you guys proved the point yourselves and now its obvious that most of you should have a guide should you ever consider spring bear hunting.
Stellar logic.
I'll post up a picture of a 400" bull and ask how many on here would shoot it. When all of them say they would, then I'll post up that it was actually in Yellowstone National Park and they are all illegal. Any seasoned elk hunter would know that elk of that size rarely occur outside of YNP. Thus, everyone that said they would shoot it should only be allowed to hunt elk with a guide. I would be super sneaky and prove my point.
I am willing to bet that if the OP had said "this bear just came out of its den, what are some consideration to think about before deciding if you want to shoot it?", the answers would have been markedly different. I watched my spring bear for 30 minutes before shooting it, so yes, the point here is still idiotic.
It should go without saying that before I decide if an animal is "big enough" to shoot, I have confirmed it is legal.
Interesting question. You'd better be sure it was a male, because what if it turned out to be a female with cubs in the den? Also, how many bears have you spotted to this point? If it is the only (legal) bear you've seen, well we all know the answer.
Assuming you've seen and passed on some other brownies, I'll go with a little different response - what shape does the hide appear to be in? Bears are all over the place regarding fur quality. If the hide was so-so I might hold out until the last day.
FullCry, I fully understand what you were attempting, but just my opinion, you could have mentioned, we expect this to be a female - which is one of the questions I did ask in my previous post - and may possibly have cubs in the den. Then everyone could have made a more informed decision.
As far as the requirement for a guide, some people should probably be required to have a guide to go to the local Walmart or to get gas at the corner station. While others really don't need a guide for much of anywhere, or anything on earth. I will admit that more often than not, a "quality" guide can tremendously add enjoyment to a trip. But one instance of we are all human is, on an Idaho hunting trip for bear, another hunter and guide took off on a hike for some spot and stalk bear hunting. At the end of the hunt, the guys return with a little 100 pounder, it may have been closer to 80 pounds. The hunter said, after spotting the bear on a distant hill, the guide said, "that's a good bear, shoot him." The hunter did as instructed and was very frustrated. Obviously this was a rifle hunt, and it was probably a two to three hundred yard shot, but still no reason to make that big of a mistake. So even guides aren't perfect.
Personally, if I happened to be on the hunt that you illustrated, I would have schooled myself inside and out of the local laws and possible scenarios. So, I feel certain that I would speculate that the bear could be a sow, and wonder about the cubs, but in all honesty, I cannot say what I would do or would have done, unless I was actually there.
"Call it what you want powder. I guess I've been trolling on here since 1997 then. Just sharing some situations that have happened to me that I learned from. Hoping others will do the same and not end up in a bad situation. Much better doing it here when nothing goes south then in the field. Maybe you'd rather not share your learning experiences but I'm not afraid to." If you really wanted to share your learning experience then i think there are better ways to do it than posting a loaded question and baiting a thread reader into an ethics debate.
I suspect if the guide was any good he would have advised you of the law and the likelihood of taking a better animal. For myself I would ask "Who will use the meat." I am not fond of bear meat and wouldn't want it to go to waste.
"I'll post up a picture of a 400" bull and ask how many on here would shoot it. When all of them say they would, then I'll post up that it was actually in Yellowstone National Park and they are all illegal. Any seasoned elk hunter would know that elk of that size rarely occur outside of YNP. Thus, everyone that said they would shoot it should only be allowed to hunt elk with a guide." - JLS
LOL, I got a chuckle out of that one JLS. You're right.
I would shoot. Then I can take the cubs home and raise them as pets :).
Same ol' bull S!!t you always get from this Fullcry guy. Not biting this time...
Some of you should actually read all the post instead of just posting stuff that makes you look silly! I read the entire post. I guess I fail to see any ‘baiting’ since all the information one needed to know is that you were looking at a bear that was NOT your goal and had a very good chance that is was a Sow. He also stated that it was the spring season. That is all that you needed to know to decide that you had better make sure that it didn’t have cubs. But after reading everyones posts, no one even asked the question whether or not it might be a sow. Just go ahead and shoot. I think it is quite clear that in this case that guide would have saved a lot of your butts from getting a ticket.