Fixed Blade and Field Point same POI
Equipment
On another forumn some guys (my self included) had a discussion on wether or not fixed blades and field points can have the same point of impact.
I say you can get broadheads and field points to group together at yardages past 80. With a properly tuned bow, arrow, and good form you can have broadheads hit right with your field points out to 100 yards.
I have shot groups at 80, 90, 100 yards tuning and tinkering and had my fixed blade broadheads hit right with my field points. I have seen it with my very own eyes, but some people are saying it is impossible.
What are your thoughts? I know there is no need to shoot that far. But the debate was fixed blades at longer range. I like to practice that far because it shows flaws better..
I use stiff arrows with high foc. I yoke tune and tinker with my setup until im getting great flight at long range. I use as much helical as I can with my vanes. Usually use a low profile head like a wac em or shuttle t lock.
My thoughts are that you phrased your opening thought incorrectly however your premise is correct.
Examine, like u, I've seen it.
What I think when I hear people say that is that there are VERY few people who really know how to tune. Bow tuning is an art and not everybody can be an artist. I'd guess that a solid 99% of bows are out of tune. My life has revolved around archery/bowhunting for as long as I can remember and I'm still getting better at tuning.
if they are not same POI, your bow is not tuned
I get it pretty darn close, but I am no yoke-tuner.. I like helical.
If your broadheads and field points won't impact the same spot its time to change something. Don't care if it is a compound or stickbow. Sometimes it the broadhead choice, sometimes even the arrow shaft.
I walk back tune to 73 yards ( farthest the yard allows) and have my bow properly set up. I fully expect my broadheads to hit the exact same spot as my field points at that range. If they don't it's usually due to poor aerodynamics of that particular broadhead. I've had lots of heads that start to stray slightly after say 50 yards. I no longer carry those in my quiver. I also refuse to " tune" to a particular broadhead. When my bow and arrow are properly tuned, I stick to heads that fly perfectly set up line that.
I have them hitting same spot to 60.....haven't found a need to tinker past that. I will agree that it can be challenging and that people generally say F-it......it's impossible! Hah.
Yep same POI with a proper tune.
Some bows have features that make tuning easy, others not without some mods. In the right hands many can be salvaged.
Bareshaft tuning is where you start.
Bullhound x2
"I have seen it with my very own eyes, but some people are saying it is impossible." Pretty much tells you how much their opinion is worth. What they REALLY mean is "I can't do it, therefore it can't be done". Gotta love the internet!
Your eyes are young, trust them:)
Tuned bows still need an experienced operator to let the arrow go at the right time which is way different that hitting a fixed target. A "killing" arrow is attained through years of shooting at live targets. C
Just for the sake of clarity the argument was that your fixed blades and field points can't have the same POI at 80+ yards.
Definitely not an easy task but can be done. i am good out to 50 yards that' enough for me !
There shouldn't be any need to check it at extremely long range. If they're hitting the same place once the arrow has stabilized (very quickly for a properly tuned compound bow), they will continue to fly the same at any distance. The only time they won't is if there is any x-wind component. The BH tipped arrow will be affected more than the FP.
most guys dont shoot enough to get same impact and most guys gear is not tuned .
There is a huge discussion about spine indexing on AT. Fellas that use different methods to tune each individual arrow for perfect flight, which usually involves bare shaft tuning.
After reading it, I'm convinced that the higher tolerance shafts are the way to go. The better shafts give better results, however they are only as good as the bow's tune and the shooter's ability.
I agree with many above. Never have never really struggled with fixed broadhead flight varying from field points. As far as tuning goes I tune to the best of my abilities but I don't yoke tune. I've shot with others who have had issues but I also know they most likely didn't have their bow in tune. All that said I've never shot broadheads to the distance Ermine has.
+1 cityhunter
So many guys can't even shoot good enough to know if their bow is tuned.
Plus, their bows aren't tuned.
It's a vicious cycle.
When I hunted with a compound I shot mostly two heads. A Muzzy and a Thunderhead Thunderhead mostly. However, I have shot bunches. And the bottom line is if the bow requires moving the sight's to get the broadhead to impact to the same place as equal weight field tips, something isn't quite right. and tuning will fix it. God Bless
Field points and slick tricks at 60 yards....one arrow is a robin hood!
I tune my wheel bows to 80 yards with a bare shaft, fletched field point, and broadhead. Yes it can be done if you are patient enough to take the time to do it. With that said, some broadheads just don't fly well and those have no place in my quiver.
70 yards a NAP Nightmare and 2 FP's
The crux of the argument was that after 70ish yards or so, the increased drag of the broadheads will cause too much drag/drop for the BH and FP to hit the same POI beyond 70 to 80 yards, and beyond.
I've had them group at 100 before but never pushed past that.
skipmaster1, I do the same thing and spray paint spots on cardboard in front of a target, but I use white paint.
For 40 yards and under, I aim at an arrow diameter stick, stuffed into an old arrow hole.
For 60 yards plus, I like yellow spots on the Rhinhart.
Aim small.
Question. The field ponts that have the same POC as the broad heads, are they the same grain?
One would think that due to the center of gravity being different on each; that shots at longer distances would not have the same POC.
What you cannot do is determine what is your favorite broadhead and then try to make it work.
In the past I have had good success with same POI with slick tricks, shuttle Ts, and rocket ultimate.
I cannot get every broadhead to achieve same POI.
I have had poor success with the older muzzys. No knock just personally could not make it happen.
The farther distance is where you really bear the fruit. As you know everything is amplified with distance.
I do not know if this statement is true?
"Most guys posting here are good at tuning and therefore will accept nothing less than the same POI."
Are we saying that if a bow is in fact tuned to a gnats behind that I should be able to achieve the same POI with with any of the better Fixed blade heads on the market? If so, I personally have not been able to do it. This is why I really only shoot a couple of fixed heads.
Tell me if I am wrong; I am not resistant to correction.
I have made a living tuning and tinkering with archery gear for over 25 years. The number one factor in a well tuned bow is (THE SHOOTER). Example; I had a guy who could never get his 2 year old Hoyt carbon element to tune perfectly , he had been to numerous proshops trying to get perfection since his bow seemed to tune tail low and outside of center . After watching him shoot a few arrows ,I suggested a slight change in his grip ( to center line) and to square up his shoulders in line with the arrow. Once he had this down , we made a couple small adjustment to the bow , took a few pictures of his old form and new improved form to look back on if problems arise ,and reflected all arrows with an aggressive helical. Now he and his bow shoot fixed heads flawlessly at 50 plus yards. In all the year of tinkering ,I've found the #1 element in tuning is NOT the bow but the shooter.
nice shooting !!! way to go.
Bowsite needs a 3d shoot would be a blast i bet it would take off !!!
City,
We tried to get one going a few years ago but it never transpired. I think Pat even approached Rinehart about the deal.
As far as way the OP stated. I agree with him 100%. It definitely can be done but those results will be different depending on the guy running the bow. One with shooting flaws (even minor) or minor tuning flaws in their setups may not be able to do this. Also....if you are Tim Gillingham you might say that your broadheads don't group with your field points. For a guy like Tim it would not be a shooting or tuning issue it would be that his level of acceptable accuracy (what he considers BH impacting with FP) is more than likely at a whole 'nother level than mine.
Its very possible, takes patience, good form, tuning knowledge, and a quality broadhead, that you have spin tested on the shaft.
It took me about 2 years of tinkering myself to get it right. You cant be afraid to make a rest adjustment, or twist a cable, and you need to understand what the change *should* do and compare it to what it *actually* does.
Yea guys seems like we are all on the page. Good shooting to the guys who posted pics. I know you can get them to hit same point of impact and I just wanted to reafirm my thoughts and argument.
Rocky D- I think that you are right. You can't always tune a bow to shoot all broadheads. Some shoot better than other for that set up. I think thats true in my opinion.
Bowfreak- Good point. A guy like Tim Gillingham is on a whole other level thats for sure!
Like others mentioned it boils down to guys not tuning their bows or not working on shooting form. I think alot of people shoot mechanicals because of this. But I have always wondered why when you can get a fixed blade to shoot the same as your field points? But thats a hole other can of worms. haha
IdyllwildArcher,
yep, aim small miss small is a biggy for me. I normally like to take the little price stickies grocery stores use (orange and about 1/4") and put on my target. this is what I aim at when I am trying to really zone in. Can't do it past 40 yards any more cuz the eyes aren't quite good enough.
I have to admit that there are days when I (the shooter) am not good enough to broadhead tune my own bow. You have to be shooting well to effectively broadhead tune IMO.
I say who gives 2 chits what they say. I seen you kill stuff at 65 yards. Good nuff for me. Letem argue. I'll just go hunt. More fun anyways :)
I think this site would benefit with more shooting talk ! I bet my last dollar all above shoot to become a better killing shot .
I think your right City. Majority of the guys on bowsite are obsessed with being good bowhunters. Shooting is an important aspect.
I found many years ago (in the age of aluminum arrows), it was as important to tune your arrows as it was your bow.
In the days before mechanical heads and carbon arrows, out of a dozen Easton 2216's, I would get 9-10 that flew great and 2-3 that became stump shooting arrows. Each arrow with each Thunderhead 125, had to be individually tuned.
When I did that and the bow was properly tuned, my bh's and my fp's had the same POI. However, I did not shoot longer than 50-yards so I don't know what they did out there.
I find this whole discussion interesting due to the fact that I'm about the least mechanical guy I know. I'm also willing to admit that and I have someone else tune my bow and I leave it right where they set it.
Last time I got a new bow, the guy who sold it to me set it up for me and tuned it, I tried Slick Tricks at the suggestion of a friend (who said they hit to the same POI as his field points) I loved em, and never looked back.
I see no reason to mess with something that works.
id say your case is the exception ace. unless your form is exactly like the tuner its going to be different for everyone. its not a rifle. if it works for you thats great but imo typically you are the only person that can exactly recreate your hand placement, tension on the backwall, break & follow through. jmo
My bows are always set up exactly to spec. I may have to tweak the rest 32nd of in inch but that's it. My pins are directly above my arrow too. It's seems most people have them off to one side slightly.
Having paper tuned and walk back tuned my Hoyt Faktor 34 at my pro shop on Monday this week, started to shoot FPs and Slick Trick Magnum 125s...this is 20 yards [may have moved my rest 1/32" if that], and will be BH tuning some more this weekend
Ermine, with properly tuned gear it can only happen if the broadhead is somehow causing the shaft to slow down more quickly than it does with an equal weight field point.
So I suppose in theory if you combined unusually big-profile heads with hard helical fletching, and unusually lightweight shafts, then it'd be possible to see a slight trajectory difference at longer ranges. But I think it'd take a helluva big broadhead to cause a "flu-flu" effect.
It doesn't seem like it would matter what I think. But, I'll tell ya anyway.
I have shot and tuned and tried several different broadheads. From my experience, you can tune a bow to hit with your broadheads the same as your field points, but then, if you try a couple different broadheads, one or more of the other broadheads may not hit with the original broadhead and fieldpoint group.
It seems as though some think that their bow is tuned absolutely perfect, when in actuality - this is my opinion - they are tuning their bow to shoot one, maybe two different broadheads with their fieldpoint group. Not saying this is bad, or that their bow isn't tuned to a high degree, but I am saying that when you change the aerodynamics of any arrow - in this case by adding a lot of surface area and different wind attack angles, things will change. Tune the bow to accept the change and everything is back on track, but introduce a significant enough of a broadhead design change, and you will once again change the point of impact for that particular setup.
And before anyone gets sideways, these are just my thoughts. Im not saying that your methods or thoughts are outright wrong, Im just saying that there is even more that we don't understand, than we think. And for the record, I don't fully understand it all myself.
Fully agree with broadhead tuning and the same point of impact. I do find in most cases though at around 60 yards the broadhead will begin to hit slightly lower. Just a touch more drag with blades screwed on all else being equal. Physics. Some heads obviously worse than others.
In theory I think a person could tune for blades to be a hair high through say 40 yards or so to compensate for the drag and likely be right on at 60, 70 etc. or more... but IMO that would be like picking fly crap out of the pepper.
Like Doc Holiday said, "my OCD goes only so far...."
A lot of guys can't their field points to group with their field points at 80+ yards.
Never, I should have been more clear, he actually tuned it for me, I shot, he made the adjustments. He's one hell of an archer, shoots year round and does well on targets and deer. I get bored shooting at targets, I just hunt.
The problem is that they always seem to stop making the best heads. Right now NAP Nightmares are my favorite fixed head. I only have a few packs left. They are one of the strongest and best flying heads I have ever seen. Even though I am crazy about tuning, I usually still shoot mechs.
At 80 yd. ? No way I can ever prove it.
ToddT, There are no "different wind attack angles" from BH to BH unless one is not aligned properly (except if one is a single bevel, and I would think that effect would be negligible). Aerodynamics of a ballistic projectile are different from those of a structure designed to create lift, like an airplane wing. Also, the additional drag from a FP to a BH is very slight, and would be unnoticeable at any reasonable range. Certainly less than any human shooter can differentiate.
This only comes into play at REALLY long ranges. It is a fact that a broached will have more drag than a FP. Therefore at some point that drag will create a different point of impact, BH below FP.
What is the distance that the drag becomes a factor? and How many people are good enough to shoot accurately enough to find that distance?
If you're shooting a 10" group at 100yds with FP and BH but the BH group is 2" lower will that be easy to see? NO you might miss a little high with BH and miss a little low with FP and say they are hitting same POI but you would be wrong.
My conclusions: 1. They hit the same at any reasonable hunting distance. 2. They will start to change POI at extreme long range 3. you have to be an amazing shot to see this change
Further to my last BH tuning session a few weeks back, I was shooting and tuning again Sunday last with the results as per the photo [this is at 20 yards]...
I tried tuning for 40 yards [as advised by a poster above], and whilst not splitting shafts, I was certainly less than one minute of angle [ie 4" at 40 yards], with my BH spot on, and my FP left and high by no more than 3" [photo to follow]...
Again, many thanks to all Bowsiters for so generously sharing their knowledge and experience
Good luck and good hunting!!
I agree with the premise but really believe it is pretty much a who cares proposition where your FP's go. What counts is where your BH's go and do they go there every time.
Some people waste a serious amount of time chasing things that don't really matter...like the perfect bullet hole in paper etc.
Personally, I would never shoot a FP and a BH at the same spot like many are posting pictures above. I'm tired of fixing my practice arrows when the BH cuts the fletching off the other arrow(s) that are already in the X.
Strait arrow- the reason I shoot FP and BH together is to make sure my bow is tuned. Once I know it's tuned properly I shoot/practice mostly with field points. Broadheads get a little expensive when your beating them up into targets constantly.
Strait arrow- the reason I shoot FP and BH together is to make sure my bow is tuned. Once I know it's tuned properly I shoot/practice mostly with field points. Broadheads get a little expensive when your beating them up into targets constantly.
I get it and I am in agreement....it's just that I have over the years learned that tuning for tuning's sake is something you can spend a lot of time on and accomplish little......I reach the point of vanishing returns quickly. If you are chopping off your fletching your done!
I will admit that some of the bh's I have purchased take a dive compared to field tips. In fact, one of the reasons I ended up using slicktricks is my bow shot them about the same as field tips. Just looking at different brands and sizes of broadheads, there is no way they all have the same aerodynamics and hence flight characteristics.
Question: if you tune your bow so field tips are perfect at a various distances, but then have to adjust it to get your broadheads to fly correctly, how is your original tuning perfect? Put another way, why doesn't your subsequent retuning for the bh take away something from the field head tuning?
Because of the above inconsistency, I regard field tip-broach head tuning as somewhat of a compromise, and I'm ok with that. I just wish there was a way to try out about 15-20 different bh's to see which one my bow likes the best (relative to field tips), without dropping $25-45 per 3 pack (i.e., >$500) to buy a bunch of broadheads when you know you/your bow isn't going to like most of them. Let's get real - a large part of the reason why a lot of people use mechanical bh's is their aerodynamics (and hence flight characteristics) are closer to field tips.
I find a a broadhead that tunes and shoots well out of a bow and I stick with that broadhead. Some setups are different. I usually use shuttle t locks or wac Ems for great accuracy. But there are a lot of great heads. VPA, Magnus.
If they aren't flying like my field points I tune them too.
I can see the use of mechanicals for wind and larger cut but other than that. When you can tune your bow to shoot fixed blades so good, why would you want to use a mechanical?
Strait arrow- yea I agree there is a point where you don't need to tune anymore and call it good
You don't tune the bow to FP. FP lie and will group well even if launch is poor.
Broadheads are honest, they tell the truth. (although some broadheads are more honest than others...) If not launched near perfectly they will plane. A good way to tell how they are planing is to compare them to FP groups. FP groups are the control group, they essentially don't plane. That is what you want your broadheads to do, not plane. That is why the two groups should group together.
I rarely tune with the head I normally use hunting. Tune with the biggest hardest to tune broadhead you have laying around that spins perfectly. (For me, usually an old original snuffer) When that's tuned everything else I screw on flys to my aimpoint. Once tuned and my sights are set I never move them.
Sighting in for broadheads does not correct their flight.
When all's said, I;d rather my BHs flew well and hit where I'm aiming...after all, I'm not going to be hunting with field points
BH tuning Part II...40+ yards; BH is spot on, FP less than one minute of angle
