3Rivers Archery Supply
CO goat, sheep, moose
Mountain Goat
Contributors to this thread:
SDHNTR(home) 27-Mar-15
mountainman 27-Mar-15
Rob Register 27-Mar-15
bill v 27-Mar-15
Zackman 27-Mar-15
JAnders1 27-Mar-15
Zackman 27-Mar-15
JAnders1 30-Mar-15
sticksender 30-Mar-15
hunt'n addict 30-Mar-15
IdyllwildArcher 30-Mar-15
huntingbob 30-Mar-15
Dave 31-Mar-15
JRABQ 31-Mar-15
CurveBow 31-Mar-15
willliamtell 31-Mar-15
BOWUNTR 31-Mar-15
TreeWalker 31-Mar-15
Sandbrew 31-Mar-15
IdyllwildArcher 31-Mar-15
sticksender 31-Mar-15
BOWUNTR 31-Mar-15
Drnaln 31-Mar-15
Sandbrew 31-Mar-15
Jimmysharpstick 31-Mar-15
IdyllwildArcher 31-Mar-15
IdyllwildArcher 01-Apr-15
SDHNTR(home) 01-Apr-15
BOWUNTR 01-Apr-15
SDHNTR(home) 01-Apr-15
Dave 01-Apr-15
loesshillsarcher 01-Apr-15
SDHNTR(home) 01-Apr-15
willliamtell 01-Apr-15
cervus 01-Apr-15
MathewsMan 02-Apr-15
IdyllwildArcher 02-Apr-15
IdyllwildArcher 02-Apr-15
JAnders1 02-Apr-15
sticksender 03-Apr-15
SDHNTR(home) 03-Apr-15
JAnders1 03-Apr-15
BOWUNTR 03-Apr-15
IdyllwildArcher 04-Apr-15
From: SDHNTR(home)
27-Mar-15
I'm drawing a blank here. I know we have to apply on paper as NR's. Done this in the past and it seems the applications were always sent to me in the mail. I didn't get anything this year. I have also looked all over the CO DOW website and can't find the stinking applications. Am I missing something? Did something change with the process this year?

From: mountainman
27-Mar-15
I don't think so. I got my sheep/goat one in the mail like normal.

From: Rob Register
27-Mar-15
The sheep and goat application form is enclosed with the sheep and goat brochure. The moose form is enclosed with the big game brochure. If you didn't get the brochures in the mail. Call 303-297-1192. They will mail brochures to you. Right now the app form is not available for download from the website. They usually make it available closer the deadline.

From: bill v
27-Mar-15
That happened to me once. Had to call up for my brochure. They got it to me fast

Bill v

From: Zackman
27-Mar-15
Nate,

I think moose is the only animal left that NRs have to apply via paper app. If you need a form, let me know. I have an extra book.

From: JAnders1
27-Mar-15
CO resident here chiming in....

NRs still have to apply for goat, sheep, and moose on paper. Sorry guys. I have extra sheep and goat proclamations on hand if you need to PM me. Would be happy to drop one in the mail. Otherwise, you should be able to call the CO DPW office and get one mailed out - 303.291.7227.

Good luck in the draw!

From: Zackman
27-Mar-15
I apologize Nate. JAnders1 is correct. I misread something else. Thanks JA for clearing that up.

From: JAnders1
30-Mar-15
ZM - No worries. Don't know why OOS hunters have to apply with paper for those species. Kinda strange.

I still have an extra sheep/goat proclamation if anyone needs one.

Just PM me.

From: sticksender
30-Mar-15
Quote: "Don't know why OOS hunters have to apply with paper for those species. Kinda strange."

Consider the cost to CPW if they start accepting credit cards from NR's for sheep, moose and goat. Taking credit cards is not a free service to the recipient. A vendor must work through a merchant account provider, who charges the vendor (CPW) a fee for each transaction, typically 2% to 4%. This fee is generally not refundable to the vendor. The CPW collects and temporarily holds about 15 million each year from NR's for their Moose, Goat, DBH, and RMBH applications. The credit card merchant fees the CPW would incur for this process, at only a 2% rate, would be about 300,000.00 per year.

Those merchant fees are avoided by taking checks only. There's no real need for them to accept credit cards and incur the additional 300,000 in associated costs, when they already receive 100 times as many NR applications as they have tags to give. The approximately 70 total licenses they award to NR's only bring in 140,000.00 in license fees. So it wouldn't make much sense to spend 300,000.00 to sell 140,000.00 in licenses.

Alternately, it makes more sense to allow residents to use credit cards, because of the drastically lower license fee they are charged for these species, and due to the much lower ratio of applicants per license issued.

30-Mar-15
X1 sticksender. My dad used to own a bike shop. People always wanted a deal but could never figure out why we would give them a better deal if the paid with a check. Most people don't realize the 2-4% fees the vendor pays to the credit card companies.

30-Mar-15
"Those merchant fees are avoided by taking checks only."

Or they could adopt 30 year old technology and just hit the cards of the few people who draw moose, sheep, and goat like Washington, Montana, Nevada, Utah, and Arizona.

Paper apps, checks, and submitting tag fees upfront are unnecessary and antiquated.

From: huntingbob
30-Mar-15
Or they can due what they do to residents. A convenience fee.

From: Dave
31-Mar-15
CO sheep, moose, goat applications are a well-run scam by the state of CO. CO F&G is making hundreds of thousands of dollars off NR sportsmen by investing over $6000 per applicant for several months and collecting interest on it. When you do the math on the number of applicants and the amount of money they are investing, it's easy to see why they continue to do it until sportsmen call them to the table on it. Show me another state that charges for the tag for species like sheep, moose or goat up front. Like somehow, if someone got drawn they might not be able to come up with the tag fee?? Even if they couldn't, don't you think the next guy in line could?? It's government racketeering at it's best.

From: JRABQ
31-Mar-15
"Show me another state that charges for the tag for species like sheep, moose or goat up front"

WY and NM are two that come to mind.

From: CurveBow
31-Mar-15
I think its a function of staff availability. They just haven't allocated the staff to set up the paperless system for moose and whatever other species that are still paper. I know from many years of elk applications that CO takes an application fee from all applications. From what I can see of the brochure online (too small to read), they charge $40. A $600 elk application X 4% = $24. Their $40 fee more than covers that, plus you have to buy a $10 Habitat Stamp that seemingly serves no purpose other than you have to buy it or else your application is not accepted!

Basically, its their game. Choose to play and its by their rules. For me, its OK, I pay every year! :)

>>>-------->

From: willliamtell
31-Mar-15
Several states charge full OOS fees up front. Just got raked over the coals by MT, and about to by ID. They add a 3% fee for credit card purchases, btw. Easy way to let the OOS folks decide - convenience or cost.

From: BOWUNTR
31-Mar-15
It separates the men from the boys... That's why they do it, there's no other way to explain it. I usually get my refund checks within 30 days from the deadline. I've been in the game for over 20 years and still no tags. When I started it was $250 a tag and there was five times the tags available in the units that I apply for. I'm not happy about it either... I'm in too deep to call it quits.

They are supposed to post the paper apps on the web site today... if that matters. Ed F

http://cpw.state.co.us/buyapply/Pages/PrintableBigGameApplications.aspx

From: TreeWalker
31-Mar-15
Anyone that thinks opening thousands of envelopes, removing the forms, scanning in the forms, hand-keying in the checks to the applications, totaling the checks, depositing the checks, recycling the wheelbarrows full of opened envelopes, shredding the applications with SSN, etc etc is a huge savings over 2 - 4% is not paying attention to what government employees with pensions actually cost per hour. State offices tend to staff for peak need which is why you see so many bored employees in departments that have seasonal workload fluctuations.

From: Sandbrew
31-Mar-15
Dave - Just to set the record straight.

And I did do the math as you requested - It's not really $100s of thousands of dollars at stake here. 2014 numbers of NR applicants Moose 1602 + Sheep 3481 + mt goat 1706 + desert sheep as well at 444 applicants multiplied by $2064 for the first 3 and $1379 for deserts is $14.6 million in license dollars collected. Let's say they keep it for 45 days total at 2% annual interest that's only $36,000 in interest. They can't "invest it" as you suggest what if they lose money?

Also I'm pretty sure there is a Colorado law that prevents them from actually making any interest in the first place.

Their game their rules don't like it nobody is forcing you to apply.

There is no ObamaApp law for big game hunters....yet.

BTW I also front all the tag fee money in WY and NM as mentioned as well as Idaho and Montana.

Sandbrew

<<<>>>

31-Mar-15
Montana has now been listed twice, but they no longer require the tag fee up front for moose, sheep, and goat and haven't since the 2013 app. Even when they did, it was $750, not 2 grand which didn't put it in the same ballpark.

It's also notable that in CO, you don't have a shot for the first 3 yrs but still have to lend them thousands of dollars just to earn a point.

And with all due respect, I don't think that separating the men from the boys is on their mind at all, since with a slight change to their system, they could become more inclusive and end up making more money off of apps if they'd just change the system to no tag fee up front, hit CCs after the draw, and charge the app fee to more people.

It's just dumb government bureaucracy that is slow to change and optimize what they do because no one's holding their hand to the fire.

From: sticksender
31-Mar-15
Just one last post for me, since this thread has gotten off track.

All I'll say is be careful what you wish for. Colorado is basically the last remaining western state where a NR can legitimately expect to draw a Goat or Ram tag over a lifetime of applying. There's no other western state that even comes close to that for NR's. This does not happen at random, there are specific reasons for it. One of them being the cost and difficulty of applying on paper which apparently deters so many NR's. Idaho is next on the list (for Moose especially). Again there's a good reason for it. The reason in the case of Idaho is that each person can choose to apply for only one OIL species, OR apply for deer/elk. And no point system to entrap applicants. These factors sharply drive down the number of apps for each OIL species.

In contrast are the states that allow on-line apps, or have a minimal up-front cost, or allow you to apply for all of the high-demand species, or some combination of these. If you're being honest with yourself, these states are mostly a waste of money, except for maybe elk & deer. About all you're accomplishing is a nice donation to their F&G dept. Most NR starting out today cannot reasonably expect to draw the high demand species in UT, AZ, NM, NV, WY, MT, CA, OR, WA in their lifetimes. It's mostly just a dream or a gamble, akin to playing the powerball.

If you're not applying to Colorado due to the high up-front cost and paperwork hassle, all I can say is....thank you. You're helping the rest of us pull some great tags. But good luck in those other states.

From: BOWUNTR
31-Mar-15
Exactly... confirming the analogy of "separating the men from the boys". Ed F

From: Drnaln
31-Mar-15
Wish all states did the same!

From: Sandbrew
31-Mar-15
IdyllwildArcher - You are correct MT is now pay when you draw.

As far as drawing Colorado tags NRs can draw any year they apply for sheep, mt goat and moose there is no rule saying they must have 3 points if all the tags are not drawn with 3 points it drops to 2 then 1 then 0. I know of at least one NR ram tag that was turned in right before the season started and the reissue tag went to a NR with only 1 point as others turned it down. Also it is very possible to draw cow moose tags and sheep ewe tags as a NR first choice with 0 points in many units. There are evennewe tags as 2nd choices for NRs occasionally. There are tags that are as close to a sure thing with 3 points for NR mt goat if you are willing to hunt a nanny. My brother drew a resident nanny tag with only 1 point a few years ago.

Also desert sheep in Colorado is random draw 1 tag for 4-500 applicants and it's only $1379.

Good luck to all in the draws!

31-Mar-15
Maybe my 26th year of applying for sheep in Co.will be my lucky one!!!

Good luck to all.

31-Mar-15
sticksender, while you bring up a good point and I won't argue the results of the system (yes, the system does, in effect, "separate the men from the boys, insofar as only more dedicated or well-to-do OIL-type NR hunters will apply), I still think that the result of improving odds on an ever-so-slightly scale, is just a product of dumb government and not some master plan of improving odds for you and I. I seriously doubt that folks over at the CO F&G are sitting around a table saying, "you know, we really ought to keep our 30 year old system of having people mail in their apps with a check, despite the odds and the fact that tag prices have gone up 1000% during that time, so that we can keep more people from applying and keep draw odds at 1 in 200-800, instead of one in 1000-10,000." I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

Again, what I stated in my last post was not disagreement in the result, but in the intention. I could be wrong, but I'd only believe it if I heard it from CO F&G myself. Anything else is heresy or speculation.

I also understand why folks wouldn't want it to change. If you've been in the game for a long time, rule changes generally screw you. But from the standpoint of someone who's just getting into the game, one gets the feeling that they're (the new applicant) not "doing their time" like the generation preceding them had to. When you start off with layers of point-fat on top of you, the outlook is completely different than the folks who were around when these systems were put in place. As it stands, if I jump in now and apply for 15 years, I will not be in the same situation in 2030 that a guy with 15 points has in 2015. Not even close. I doubt that guys with 15+ points across the west are sitting around and running numbers for guys who are just getting in.

And I'm not saying that everything has to be "fair" or that everyone should be on the same level here. I'm just saying that these systems were doomed to be broken when they started and were poorly conceived. That they favor a generation of hunters who were applying in the west 1985 and 2000 and that everyone who came after them will never have the same opportunity to draw these tags like they do/did.

It's just like the CA sheep system. If I had max points, hell, I wouldn't want it to change. But when you have a tag that 1000 people want and there's only 2 given out and one is given to a small group of people who were lucky enough to be applying when the system went in and will continue to have that advantage till everyone's an old man/dead and the other is given to everyone else (whereas they still have a shot at that one too), you think differently of the system.

Over in ID, the system is definitely in place to assist hunters who really want to hunt XXX species by only allowing you to apply for the OIL species, but comparing ID and CO is like comparing the U.S. and Mars.

As far as listing all the other states and the finite odds of drawing, perhaps you didn't consider the fact that despite the poor odds, an average guy can still apply to all of them for his entire life for minimal investment and the odds of drawing one actually become significant after decades of applying to more than one place. That is the saving grace of places like UT (et al) where a minimal investment at least gives you a chance and increases that odds, year after year, for a small price. And another point, many of these states offer OIL applications for a nominal price in a place where you'd already be applying for elk anyways, so the OIL app is basically a gimme.

Check back with me in 30 years and I'll let you know how that works out.

01-Apr-15
"Colorado is basically the last remaining western state where a NR can legitimately expect to draw a Goat or Ram tag over a lifetime of applying."

With all due respect, I disagree. The fact remains that there is still a numerical problem with people coming into the draw system. Maybe that was the case for people who entered the draw prior to 2000, but for people entering now, it's no longer the case.

What you have is X amount of tags per year and Y amount of apps, but the failing of most people who analyze draw systems is, they look at the system with a snapshot view of things, or as things stand this year. People leaving the system by drawing, dropping out, or dying is lower than the amount of people coming in and that will continue for quite some time.

Most of these systems went in around 1990 and men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s are the bulk of the people who were applying then that currently have the highest amount of points right now and many will continue to apply for decades to come, all the while, new applicants continue to stream in to the system.

Sure, there were guys that were in their 50s and 60s as well who were applying then and some of them have or will soon drop out, but if you have looked in depth at the numbers coming in and spent some time running the math, crunching the numbers with ages mixed in, the fact is, that these systems will continue to have worsening odds for the next 20 years or so.

Such as that someone who starts applying now, will have crap odds in 20 years compared to a guy right now who has 20 points and this is across the west in every state that has a BP or PP system. And this will continue and not reverse, but rather stagnate.

The end effect if everything stays the same, 50 years from now, is a reality where the bulk of guys hunting Shiras moose, sheep, and goat in the lower 48 are 65 years old+, there still aren't enough tags to go around so someone's going without, but, and this is the kicker, but...there was a time when baby-boomers had a chance to have superior odds of drawing while they were young at the expense of their kids simply by getting into the game when the system was instituted.

No one will ever convince me that this is anything other than horse $#!+ and getting back to the thread, this is why I have a problem plopping down 6 grand for a plate of horse $#!+.

If I had 15+ points right now, I'd love to plop down 6 grand in CO and keep my odds higher. But for someone getting in right now, the value of the product you're paying for from 2015-2035 pales in comparison to what you got/get from 2000-2020. The commodity is devaluating. I'm sure everyone can understand the devaluation of a commodity all-the-while retaining its price as a mismatch of logic.

From: SDHNTR(home)
01-Apr-15
Ed, thanks for that link.

I'm more confused now. Why does it specifically say that NR moose applicants must use paper but nothing about goat and sheep? Don't NRs have to use paper for all three?

And I'm glad CO is this way. Sure the process is antiquated and it sucks to cough up the dough, but I like being a man among boys, ;-) I prefer the better bad odds.

From: BOWUNTR
01-Apr-15
Yep... paper for all three.... Ed F

From: SDHNTR(home)
01-Apr-15
That's what I thought and what I've always done, but the exclusive mention of paper for moose is confusing.

From: Dave
01-Apr-15
"And I did do the math as you requested - It's not really $100s of thousands of dollars at stake here. 2014 numbers of NR applicants Moose 1602 + Sheep 3481 + mt goat 1706 + desert sheep as well at 444 applicants multiplied by $2064 for the first 3 and $1379 for deserts is $14.6 million in license dollars collected. Let's say they keep it for 45 days total at 2% annual interest that's only $36,000 in interest. They can't "invest it" as you suggest what if they lose money? "

And when you add in the Resident applicants Moose 18355, BHS 11357, Goat 8076, and DBH 1320, that adds an additional $9.9 million to the kitty and this doesn't even take into consideration elk, deer, and antelope, and bear fees.

Anyone who thinks there isn't a financial incentive for CO P&W to spend manpower hours opening envelopes, manually entering applicant information into the computer draw system, depositing checks, issuing refund checks(including paper costs, manpower hours, and postage) when there is already a system in place to do it all online and have sportsmen do the lionshare of the work for them, is living in a dreamworld. You guys need to wake up. Do you really think CO doesn't have a financial motive for doing it this way??

01-Apr-15
They need a box to check to verify that a lifetime habitat has been purchased. I get nervous because there isn't one.

From: SDHNTR(home)
01-Apr-15
Do I need to buy the habitat stamp for EACH application? Even if only buying points?

Done this for years and still can't keep it straight.

From: willliamtell
01-Apr-15
Fellas, we need to figure out how to grow a bigger pie.

From: cervus
01-Apr-15
No SDHNTR, just one total.

From: MathewsMan
02-Apr-15
The pie gets much smaller when you call Colorado home. Pay our high cost of living, taxes and your odds go from around .004 to .166 or so.

02-Apr-15
The picture on the front of the cover of this year's CO Sheep/Goat brochure is incredible.

02-Apr-15

From: JAnders1
02-Apr-15

JAnders1's Link
SDHNTR - "I'm more confused now. Why does it specifically say that NR moose applicants must use paper but nothing about goat and sheep? Don't NRs have to use paper for all three?"

CO prints a separate proclamation for sheep and goat. The proclamation you're looking at is the Big Game proclamation, which only deals with deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose. It mentions moose applicants must apply with paper because that is the only species in that proclamation that requires NR paper applications. See p.6 of the sheep/goat proclamation stating only R applicants can apply online.

From: sticksender
03-Apr-15
JAnders, he wasn't talking about the Big Game Brochure, he was referring to the web page in bowuntr's link (above) that allows printing out the application forms. Here:

http://cpw.state.co.us/buyapply/Pages/PrintableBigGameApplications.aspx

Up until yesterday, there was a note on that page that read:

"Nonresidents applying for moose MUST use paper applications."

However, the CPW has now revised the web page to read:

"Nonresidents applying for bighorn sheep, mountain goat, and moose MUST use paper applications."

From: SDHNTR(home)
03-Apr-15
Exactly stick sender. It was the website page that listed all the printable aps, yet only made mention of the moose being paper for NRs. Glad to see they have clarified.

From: JAnders1
03-Apr-15
Got it - thanks sticksender. And glad CPW fixed the confusing language.

Let the dreadful wait begin....

From: BOWUNTR
03-Apr-15
It's my year... things are going too good for me right now not to draw a sheep or goat tag... Ed F

04-Apr-15
GL Ed :)

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