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Broadhead and spine question

Going to try traditional archery this year, I have a 55lb martin bow and want to get some Easton 340 carbon arrows. They weigh 9.5gr per inch. Arrow length will be 29"

With that arrow and length im looking at 275 gr's. Add 160gr Zwickey Broadhead,insert and possibly a 50gr weight/insert im sitting close to 500 grs.

will that arrow's spine be able to handle the 210 grains at the broadhead. Is that the proper way to get upto 500grs (at least)

my target will be NM elk this fall.

Thks

You forgot 11 grain nock and weight of the fletching, wrap ?

it depends on what martin bow you are getting.

The bow is a Martin Mamba at 55lbs with fast flight string

im revising the numbers a bit

arrow is Easton 340 carbon arrow 10.3gr per inch x 29" = 298gr broadhead = 135gr insert = 75gr

total - 506gr

I understand I didn't include weight for 4" fletchings and knocks

I would get the free 5 day trial of shaft selector (pinwheelsoftware.com). Put in all your components, make sure you have the correct filters on (ie hunting etc) and adjust arrow length and spine and see. This has works good for my. In my experience a little on the stiff side is still good.

Buck Watcher

Wow, nice program. The arrow and broadhead setup looks like it will work. According to the program I need to bump the insert to 100gr. Which works Id like to be in the +500gr weight. Hopefully the numbers will hold when I start tuning

Thks

you may want to try a 500 at that length also, which flies & hits the straightest.

"will that arrow's spine be able to handle the 210 grains at the broadhead. Is that the proper way to get upto 500grs (at least)"

Sorry but that's not the proper way to get overall arrow weight.The number 1 priority is to tune the arrow to the bow.I shoot bows in that range and with a 340 shaft,I need 400 grs on the front end for that to tune and that makes a 700 gr arrow.That arrow is way too stiff for that little front end weight.

When you properly tune,the arrow/bow combination will tell you what the front end weight will be.That and shaft selection will determine overall arrow weight.The fact that you are set on an exact shaft length,really cuts down on your choices.

If those arrows aren't tuned to the bow,a fletched shaft with field point may seem to fly OK but one with a broadhead WILL NOT hit impact the same place,flight will be compromised,as will penetration.

To predetermine a shaft length AND come up with a specific arrow weight AND be well tuned,requires a lot of trial and error with different weight and or spine shafts-a ton of experimentation.

I use this method of tuning: http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html

If it were me,I'd be looking at .400 shafts for that amount of point weight.Chose a shaft who's weight will get you close.A wood grain finish can gain you 30 grs if you need it.Being a little flexible with point weight and shaft length can make life easier.

I also wouldn't sweat an exact arrow weight a lot either.At typical traditional distances,say 30 yds max,you will be surprised how little difference you will see between a 500 gr and 600 gr arrow.

Lancaster will sell single shafts.It would be a good idea to try a couple that you think will work and bare shaft tune them before sinking money in to a bunch of shafts they may not do what you want.

I really think the .400 spine range is where you need to start.Good luck with it.

A 400 will likely be more fitting but whatever you choose DO NOT CUT UNTIL YOU HAVE TRIED THEM FULL LENGTH!

Stu Millers Dynamic Spine Calculator is a pretty good program.

A little on the stiff side is fine if using a release aid but not so much with finger release.

My first concern is this. You've never hunted with a stick bow, but yet you plan on hunting elk with a stick bow in just 4 short months.... Wow,...

A .400 spine shaft, with that much weight up front, left full length, ain't going to cut it. And trying to pick a broadhead weight before you start tuning, ain't going to work either. Everyone's release and form is different, and you'll be fifghting a loosing battle when guys tell you that you need to use this shaft with this much weight. Form plays a huge role in arrow flight. Bad form and bad releases will make guys needing a heavier, stiffer spines shaft. A heavier arrow requires less tuning...

Because you're bow is cut to center, not past center, you'll need a weaker spiked shaft for paradox. Shaft diameter wil also effect the spine needed for perfect arrow flight. VAPs are a smaller diameter shaft compared to a regular Easton shaft, and you'll be able to shoot a stiffer shaft. You've got a lot to learn and a lot of shooting to do in order for you to get good enough to hunt elk in four months...

great comments, and theyre all appreciated. Ive been successfully hunting elk with a compound for 10 years so im not a total nubbin. Ive got my compound tuned and ready to go if I feel like im not ready this year for a recurve. I am retired and have plenty of time each day to devote to this so Ill see how it goes. Im surely not going to piss away a Gila Wilderness elk hunt so rest easy Buglmin.

Im not set on any arrow or broadhead weight, my intial thoughts were 500gr total arrow weight for elk. Using a compound im not used to stacking that much weight up front and was concerned about an arrow spine being able to handle that much stacking.

Ive learned that the numbers ive been working with probably aren't ideal with the info you guys have provided ive got a better understanding of where to start.

thks much

You need to spend some time shooting the bow and tuning arrows. It takes me several days of playing with different arrows before I find the one I like out of my bows. Lots of different arrows out there to try and pick just one without some experimenting.

I shoot 30 1/4" arrows out if my recurves, usually FMJs, Black Eagle Rampages or Gold Tip VAPs. But my recurves are cut past center, allowing me to tune to shoot a stiffer, slightly heavier shaft.youll just need to shoot some arrows, tune, and pick which ones fly the best for you. And just a lil reminder, everything you've learned about tuning arrows for your compound, ain't going to work too good for tuning your stick bow...

Done this forever. Those arrows are going to be way stiff out of that bow even left full length and with 325 grains of point weight. If you draw 28"s and you want to shoot a 29" arrow than go with a 500 spine cut to 29"s and shoot a point weight of 175 grains and with insert that will get you too 190 grains give or take a bit. You will get the arrow around 500 grains and that is plenty. 9gpp. is more than enough for any NA game animals. I can give an example. My go to bow right now is an Abe Penner Caribow Tuktu Recurve. It is 56#s at my 28" draw and I shoot gold tip traditionals 500 spine. cut to 29.5"s and shoot 175 grain VPA's so with the insert right about 190 grains. If I were you I would start with the .500 spine at 30"s and cut 1/4" off at a time til you get good flight. If you want a 29" arrow you may need to go to 225 up front for perfect flight. I have been helping traditonal shooters get the right arrow set up for their bows for over 15 years now. I promise you will be darn close if not right on with my selections. Shawn

Whiskey most guys just starting out are well over spined. I believe a lot of guys are over spined with their compounds as well. I have owned well over 100 traditional bows over the last 38 years and I have owned a Martin Mamba as well. You will do fine with a .500 spine and as I said if you draw 28"s. I really need to know that cause 1/2" in arrow length stiffens(if shortened) an arrow quite a bit. Remember traditional arrows forever were spined using 13" centers not 14" centers like carbons. If guys would take a carbon spined .500 by todays standards and spine it the old fashioned way. With the arrow supported at 26"s and 13" center that same arrow would spine around 75#s give or take not the 35/55 they are rated today. Guys get away with stiff arrows and think they are flying well because they fletch up an arrow with 3- 4 inch or 5 inch feathers and it flies pretty good, but those feathers with a hard helical hide a lot of mistakes. If you would like,send me your addy and I will send you a shaft all set up and I bet you will love how it flies. No strings attached, just send me your addy. Shawn

Whiskey most guys just starting out are well over spined. I believe a lot of guys are over spined with their compounds as well. I have owned well over 100 traditional bows over the last 38 years and I have owned a Martin Mamba as well. You will do fine with a .500 spine and as I said if you draw 28"s. I really need to know that cause 1/2" in arrow length stiffens(if shortened) an arrow quite a bit. Remember traditional arrows forever were spined using 13" centers not 14" centers like carbons. If guys would take a carbon spined .500 by todays standards and spine it the old fashioned way. With the arrow supported at 26"s and 13" center that same arrow would spine around 75#s give or take not the 35/55 they are rated today. Guys get away with stiff arrows and think they are flying well because they fletch up an arrow with 3- 4 inch or 5 inch feathers and it flies pretty good, but those feathers with a hard helical hide a lot of mistakes. If you would like,send me your addy and I will send you a shaft all set up and I bet you will love how it flies. No strings attached, just send me your addy. Shawn

Deerman406

Ill have the bow in my hands by early next week at the latest, My draw length measured a couple of different ways is 28". Until I get it in my hands and and pull and see what I would like the arrow length to be I don't know for sure. However assuming the DL is correct, I would like arrow length to be 29"

Im not set on anything and understand that adjusting length is useful in tuning the bow to the spine.

sent pm

thanks for your help! RR

Deerman406

comprehending your posts better I have a question

Saw your numbers and your broadhead, If I shoot the zwickey 135 gr and use 65grs of insert = 190gr. Is there any reason that doesn't work?

Im kinda a form follows function guy, I know what broadhead I wanna start out with, so is it all right to stack an insert to get to your numbers?

thks

Yes that 190 up front will work fine. I shot Zwickeys for years. Not the easiest head in the world to sharpen. I switched to the VPA and they are awesome, easily sharpen and a wide range of head weights to choose from. I just spined a .340 carbon the old fashioned way. Supported at 26"s and the weight applied to the 13" center. Guess what it spined?? 108#s!! Shawn

lol well I suppose if I put the bow on my feet and leaned back im might could get close to 90lbs.

Ill check out the VPA's

I like the profile of the VPA's, I was going for a lighter/Smaller broadhead to keep the profile size down. Always windy over here so trying to cut down on planing.

VPA's have a smaller profile than the 135 zwickeys. Not cheap tho.

to stiff for your set up. don't cut arrows till they test close to desired flight. 400's maybe. and cc heads. good luck

You'll be fine. I shoot a couple of different arrows setups that are very similar to that from compounds ranging from 54-62# draw weight and believe they are just about perfect. Finish out at 531gr with lighted nocks, 150gr heads 40-50 gr worth of insert weight and a footer. I personally never could get 400s to fly as well as 330-350 spine out of my set ups not sure why as they really should be able to handle that it too.

Rayzor unless you are shooting them full length(32-33"s) I am positive they are to stiff. Even full length you would need more weight up front. Shawn

Yeah to stiff ESPECIALLY cut to 29"

Just like I said in my earlier post, and most guys posting here are shooting compounds, not stick bows. And if your arrows plane, it's not tuned!!

Remember when tuning with field points and a recurve you want the arrow slightly weak as a broadhead will act to stiffen the arrow a tad. Bareshaft tuning is fairly simple with a recurve. If you are right handed and hitting left you have to go weaker, either keep adding weight til you hit center or build out the side plate or a combo of the two. I can shoot my bareshafts as well as my fletched arrows out to 20 yards. Shawn

I need to quit speed reading. Ignore my post. I was talking compounds.

Whiskey08, you're getting some solid advice here.

Deerman406 sounds like he knows what he's doing too. I've been shooting recurves for about 12 years. I'll second what Deerman406 said about the VPAs. I got a 3 pack of 3 blade VPAs and have taken over a dozen deer with them. Just touch them back up and go again. I still have all three of them ready to go. Haven't had the right chance to get an elk with them yet but have no doubt that they will do the job.

I have a Gila tag this year too! Early season #15.

Another option to determine which arrow to shoot is to download Stu Miller's spine calculator. It's free and the results will be VERY CLOSE.

Elkstabber

yep Deerman, and others are helping a bunch. Definitely making life easier.

I ended up going with the VPA's. I like the profile and smaller surface area compared to a Zwickey

I drew GMU 15 also, starts 1 Sep. Were getting some good rain down here so hopefully some nice antlers this year. Gonna try and do at least two scouting trips over there.

so heres another question,

since im not consistent at hitting with a recurve, my plan is tune with a bare shaft only

doesn't matter whether I hit left or right because I doubt ill be capable of consistently hitting a spot starting out.

what I will attempt to do is shoot a bare shaft and go off of knock in relation to where the tip is. When I tune it properly I should have a straight arrow going in, then switch to an arrow with fletching and confirm.

So in short im not going to try and group my impact point between bare and fletched intitally. Just going to try to get a bare shaft to fly straight?? (or slightly off to leave room for fletching and broadhead)

The trial and error of bareshaft tune is going to be the only way to get it right...the calculators can get you close but aren't 100% accurate. Cutting your arrows too short can cost you. Perfect arrow spine is crucial with stickbows...not so much with compounds.

As is form....slight form error with my compound and I'm 6" out....the same error with my stickbow and I'm 3' out.

The other problem you will have- which I haven't seen mentioned- is your newbie form won't be good enough to accurately bareshaft tune- a big chicken or the egg thing in stickbow shooting.

I would recommend getting a cheap set of long arrows and work on your form until its somewhat consistent...then worry about working up a tuned arrow. The 'Masters of the barebow' vids #1 and #3 are a good place to start...and having some instruction from someone to help with your form/alignment is highly recommended.

FWIW, I think the whole hunched over instinctive crowd can kick you off in the wrong direction. I would learn proper alignment and upright shooting so you understand the principals of that first....then if you want to gravitate to true instinctive [whatever that is- grin] you have a foundation of consistent DL and form.

To give you a real world example of aiming styles- I shot the Yahi Trad shoot last weekend with an instinctive guy- been shooting that way for 20 yrs he said- call him Del...and another guy that had Rod Jenkins type form- call him Don.

Well Del came out of the gate shooting well especially on the shorter targets [15yds-25yds] scoring well. Don was lights out- always in the 10 ring with arrows grouped. As the shoot went on Del fell off with a lot of complete misses...even second arrow misses as in instinctive if you visualize it wrong you have no reference point to go back to. Don on the other hand went on to shoot high score [a heck of a shot] in fact I think he only lost one arrow right all day [42 targets- 2 arrows] and went on to shoot high score. My 3rd highest did not accurately reflect how badly he beat me....essentially shooting better on every single target.

Beendare

If your referring to the "gap" method I think it makes perfect sense not having the luxury of shooting "instinctively" for 25yrs.

Last year I took a couple of flat lander buddies from Indiana Elk archery in NM, We spotted a bull returning from a water hole so I set up on a the direction I thought he would come I set up on a 40yd long shooting lane and waited. Once I heard him clomping around I gave a faint cow call, he immediately came charging towards the call, Soon as I heard him coming I drew my compound and held. He stopped 3yds away behind some trees, just a couple of steps away from a clear shot. We waited for a bit then he stepped out, all I could see through my peep sight was a big mass of hair. Soon as he stepped out, he saw me and bolted. With a recurve that would of been an easy shot, so that's when I decided to go "instinctive" I think that would of been an easy instinctive shot, but once you get out at further ranges than a gap type of aiming will be more consistent, as you mentioned.

Ive gotten numerous Bulls with a compound, to the point im usually guiding some friends, and not concerned whether or not I get to shoot. (5x5 or smaller of course). This will re energize the hunt for me and give me short term goals to spend my retirement on. Should be fun!

Zwickeys are one of the easiest heads to sharpen. You will need to rework the angle of edge with a file and then proceed to polish the blade with medium and fine grit stones. Finish with a leather strop and your head will be sharp enough to shave with.

The ground edge is too steep and needs to be wider. I lay a file across the edge so that it barely touches the ferrule and then start removing steel. If you aren't taking steel off the ferrule, your angle is too steep. If you are using a sharpening system, an angle of about 25 degrees is about right.

You can tinker with arrow spine, arrow length, insert weight, point weight all week long. It will help you come up with the best flying arrow. That said, it is not rocket science getting an arrow to fly well. Arrow that are not perfectly optimized will fly well with 5" feathers with helical twist. To be honest, most bowhunters I know have never spent any time bare shafting to find the optimum arrow parameters. I take the time and enjoy doing this but most do not and still get very good arrow flight with a little trial and error.

Hey Whiskey, I'm not criticizing the army of instinctive guys out there that shoot very close shots- more power to them.

I'm saying form is crucial no matter your aiming style if you intend to hit anything on a consistent basis....

Whiskey what really matters is getting comfortable with whatever style you choose to shoot. Follow through is very important, do not peak at the shot or drop the bow arm to look. I shoot split vision which is an instinctive style. Guys who say they do not see the arrow, well that is impossible just ask an eye doctor. Guys zone out and look at the spot so they don't notice it or use it to aim but they see it. Gap shooters are very tough to beat in a shooting event as if they know the distance they know their gap and can hit well out to 40 yards and beyond. It is tougher to be a gap shooter and hunt unless yoy use a range finder as a real good gap shooter needs to know the yardage to get his gap correct. I normally tell folks that just pick up a bow to shoot 3 under and gun barrel. I can have most anyone hitting a softball size target in 15 minutes shooting 3 under. Experiment and see what you like. If you are going to hunt than in my opinion you really do not want to shoot with the bow straight up and down. Can't the bow it will help you get a better sight picture. You may be lucky and be one of the people(like my daughter) who is just a natural. If you can throw a baseball or football accurately or shoot a basketball well than you most likely will be pretty good at traditional archery. Shawn

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