P&Y partners with Ozonics
Equipment
I was assuming P&Y would never allow animals harvested while using Ozonics to be entered, was debating with someone and then found this link. I have not seen it covered here but frankly I am shocked if true. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet. Can anyone validate this?
Ozonics name is on the Pope and Young webpage banner ad. They also had a booth at the convention, not that means much.
Granted, I haven't followed the club for very long, but I don't see what the big deal would be if someone used an Ozonics and harvested an animal.
The club seems to be quite a bit more progressive now than it has in the past based on my observations. I was so impressed with the people, and what I saw at the convention, that I signed up as a life member just last week. Looks to be great stuff ahead!
You know - one thing P&Y has steadfastly promoted is "fair chase". I guess they feel the device is no threat to that which in reality hurts their marketing schemes lol!!!
I am an Associate member in P&Y and am getting increasingly concerned of who they are permitting as "sponsors". I understand the desire to be more inclusive and that sponsors bring money and help support the organization but it seems to me that they are selling out their ideals to the highest bidder. I won't continue to support them if this continues. The organization claims they are 100% against crossbows yet they allow Archery World to be a prominent sponsor and send their magazine to P&Y members. Archery World is a big promoter of crossbows.
The Boys at P&Y must be hurting for cash. We still make fun of Ozonics. Gonna have to re-think my membership.
Wap
I want to see what Charlie has to say. It is not clear if they will allow book entry on game taken with ozonics. It is clear they are being sponsored by them. It just seems to me that it does fall under the category of electronic device.
You can't win, if they didn't allow it they would be Neanderthals and because they do they are sell outs.
The rules of fair chase say you can't use an electronic device to locate, pursue or guide a hunter to game.
I think the Ozonics would fall into a category like a rangefinder and trail cameras. You don't have to use one if you don't like them.
And yes P&Y needs money just like every other conservation organization, and personally I think they need to stop their anti crossbow agenda and just stick to promoting bowhunting.
John
JM - that is about as solid a response there could be. Thank you
I use an Ozonics and see nothing wrong with it. It is not part of the bow and is no different that anything else that kills human scent.
" The NEW Pope & Young Club " (as it was labeled awhile back on here by 'someone') is NOT what The Pope & Young Club is/was ..... I am really ashamed of where Archery and Bow Hunting has gone. Money and Politics and The Industry has "invaded" The Pope & Young Club !!! They have turned it into a "Sport" .... bow hunting I mean ... and it is NOT .... It is a Tradition and a Heritage and something I was very proud of!
Cross-bow stuff I despise .... it is not Archery by 'my definition' and Manufacturers want Your Money and the users want the "simplicity" and they will argue their point from daylight till dark!
Consumers have caused these issues! "The Good Old Days" are dead and gone .... consumers DRIVE what is happening! (jmho)
You know, if it worked it would not be fair chase. Since it is just another "forget the wind" product, just be glad they are contributing and don't worry about it. Nothing is going to eliminate scent no matter the claim. Use your brains and woodsmanship and take note of wind direction. You will have a MUCH better chance of being successful...
Herm, I hate to break this to you, but to old timers since the dawn of man, the "good old days" were always left behind about the time they reached middle age.
Imagine how some complained when a guy showed up in the camp with a wheel. "We don't need that thing! A travois has always worked just fine. Next thing you know they'll put two of them together, lash a stick between em, and pretty soon nobody will walk anywhere. It'll be the ruin of civilization as we know it!"
As far as P&Y and Ozonics? Who gives a flip. P&Y needs money to do the good things they do. Ozonics is willing to give them some. I think it's great and wish more companies would do so.
Surprising to me as not who the club wants to or not to to take money from but the device presses the clarification of "pursuit".
If electronic removal of scent happens as claimed by company then has Pursuit been aided?
I'm guessing that query already has an answer so maybe my surprise is nothing more than me getting an answer to a question that I never knew existed...:)
Sweet jesus people! Loosen up. These things arent cross bows. P&Y has never been, certainly is not now, and I don't think ever will be, supportive of crossbows in archery seasons. Relax. The ban on electronic devices is a ban on such devices attached to the bow. This gadget is not. I dont use Ozonics personally, nor Rage broadheads, or Kuiu clothing, or a whole host of other products that sponsor the club, but that doesn't mean I am going to avoid them and the good they do for our sport. The Club needs money to operate. They do far more good for bowhunting than bad. You can't please everybody and no organization is going to be able to be 100% agreeable to 100% of its constituients. Look at the greater whole. The Club supports bowhunting like no other organization and we are fortunate to have them. IMO, quit being ticky tacky with minor issue like a sponsor you may disagree with and recognize the greater good the Club does.
Did they allow entries when you shot them wearing Scent-Lok? It's just about as gimicky...
What if you use a four wheeler or an electric golf cart to drive to your tree stand? That is aiding the pursuit in taking game...
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached with the exception of lighted nocks and recording devices that cast no light towards the target and do not aid in rangefinding, sighting or shooting the bow" From P&Y website under fair chase.
I will support the club regardless of the rules I agree or don't agree with and will continue to be a member because bowhunting is a large part of my life.
However, I have said it before but will say it again, part of this statement needs revised or removed. The second part of that statement is adhered to firmly, but the first part is not at all imo. Trail Cameras, some even text/email pictures to your phone, ozonics, electronic timers on feeders, rangefinders...the list goes on, are all acceptable. This leads to discussions like we are having in regards to ozonics.
I personally don't see an issue with most of the technology. Bowhunters are going to continue to see more and more innovation in this regard and as a club you either stay firmly in the past and watch membership slowly diminish into non existance or you're willing to compromise on some things and hopefully gain membership going forward imo.
I agree with John in that no matter what direction the leadership and the club go they won't make everyone happy so they have to do what they think is best and hope for the best.
Matt
Times change.. .You can either adapt or become irrelevant. Fortunately, P&Y has been adapting to the changing times so that they can remain relevant. I commend the leadership of the club for the difficult and sometimes thankless job they do. Jeff
Genesis: Did your Sitka Gear arrive yet? I'm so excited I just can't hide it:)
JMx20 and most of what Matt said!
Mark
Personally,I'm about to lose control and I think I like it!
Fanatic jacket for me,just trying to decide the sizing...dropping weight as we speak :)
Ditto what Matt says also. Some want to keep the club as it was in its historic age, however it must evolve in order to survive. The trouble is establishing proper ethics. The membership levels are crap though. But I adapt and reluctantly accept.
" It's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll"
Meaning....I don't even have one stich of the new Sitka ordered .....i'm pretty lame!
Mark
I had no idea this might be a controversial topic. What would TBM say?
They don't want to partner or endorse stuff that might make taking game unfair. I see no issue with Ozonics. Its biggest impact is that user has to work an extra 2-3 days to afford one instead of sitting in the tree or scouting and might get busted by a deer while messing with it. Heck, might even be more challenging than hunting without one :^)
Seriously though, gadgets are here to stay and P&Y will likely continue down the path its following. They passed my idea of the right balance between challenge and reward, as it pertains to bowhunting, a long time ago. So although I pay attention, I'm having a hard time getting fired up when I see another brick in the wall. Plus its hot here today.
If the Pope and Young Club found a cure for cancer, people would complain that curing cancer is not related to bowhunting and that in the good old days, bowhunters died of cancer.
"I had no idea this would be a controversial topic"
Really?
I will say this, I am very proud and pleased at the many young (under 40) Bowsite guys that have stepped up and joined the Pope & Young. It validates our future! Thanks Guys! C
Genesis: XL, trust me:)
Actually. Charlie I just found it very interesting due to the electronic aspect. . Not controversial. JM definitely had the right response.
jACK fair chase is out the window these days . Funny many of them PY Partners support Xbows sad
When one takes on partners it usually comes at a price. Partneres usually have a agenda to push sometimes good sometimes not so good ! Time will tell.
Charlie so if PY went away bowhuntings future would end ?
So long as they don't start selling naming rights.
"We present the Kuiu Ishi Award to the Ozonics Woodland Caribou!"
Glad to see you still got it Lou..... lol
The older you get the less you like change. Personally I don't like having to type my zip code in a gas pump.
Pete you crack me up. Lol
The question I have often posed on here, is if they came out with an electronic device, that not only made your completely "un-smellable" but also completely invisible even if you move (like some sort of ozonics infused hologram surrounding you), and you could literally set up anytime, anywhere, and affordability was not the issue - WOULD YOU DO IT?
All that is left for you to do, is select the right location regardless of wind, and make the shot if the animal comes by. You have now rendered, all the deer's primary defenses useless.
Mark my words - because at age 51, that is coming...
Jack, sometimes I think I have that now with Nose Jammer and a deer hat! But I don't fret over the ethical aspects too much because Ishi and other natives used the deer hat, and hunters have been using vanilla and other cover scents forever.
But to your question about a technological breakthrough, someday if hunter numbers decline and animal numbers increase to the point where anything goes to control them, the idea of ethics and" fair chase" may become a quaint, brief footnote in history.
Non issue to me, some of you guys take this stuff pretty seriously.
"some of you guys take this stuff pretty seriously"
Yes - until about September.... HAHA
There I am! My abs are looking good too!
Jack,
My answer is no I wouldn't use it, even though I try to do that with scent elimination, tree stand locations ect.
John
I, like most of you, started hunting with a shotgun and a rifle. I picked up the bow because I liked more challenge. It is a personal choice. I don't hunt with a bow to impress anybody. Lord knows that no matter what I shoot, my animal will be smaller than most. I have embraced some technology - compound bow, laser range finder, release, some scent elimination stuff. I really don't care what other guys use. And yes, I have hunted whitetails in Texas over bait and I have hunted black bears over bait. I have hunted cats with dogs. OH MY GOD! The only remote concern that I have about advancing technology is the effect that it may have on season lengths. You guys need to lighten up and recognize that participation in our sport continues to dwindle. To those guys who still hunt with a stick and a string and a spear wearing a loin cloth, more power to you. Just dont' expect me to do it. I grow weary of being told what I can and cannot do in this country. Hunting organizations need to embrace change in order to attract young people. Like it or not, those that don't will eventually go the way of the dinosaur. My two cents.
You lead by example. We are all different, and we look at fair chase in different terms....
The weapon has nothing to do with ethics or doing the right thing.....
For the record I shoot both compound and recurve. For me the ability to check cameras via a computer or phone is not fair chase.....
But then I can understand, how it would benefit an outfitter on private land, who has lots of clients and needs to do his best, to be on top of the game, so to speak...
I have no problem, as long as it is legal. Some things that are legal, still are not right in my opinion, but that is my choice....
I try to set a good example to new hunters. I choose to hunt, for the love of hunting, and to follow my values.....
I have know problem with Pope and Young, and getting some assistance from Ozonics.
The real enemy is Washington DC, both sides of the aisles, filled with buffoons, most who would either like to stop hunting, or stop the use of federal land and put it in the pockets of those with the most money.......
stay well
If manufacturers and bowhunters are hell-bent on driving over the cliff with regards to runaway technology, P&Y should not feel that they have to ride in the back seat just so they can get along with everyone. Their ideals should not be dumbed down to the point where those who think there should be no restrictions on anything can now feel included.
Mad Trapper well said. In the Hunting/shooting/Fishing arenas I find that alot of discussion is FEAR! Fear - losing control of what you have, not getting what you want!!!!!! Change is imminent it's happening all around us all the time. Live life to the fullest and get out and hunt/fish/shoot and don't worry how others do it as it's none of your business!
Corporate "partners" give a lot of money to "associations" where the members can't or won't give the money to keep them going. When the "associations/groups" change there vision/mission based on the corporate money is when things go awry. That is where all members should watch closely in what direction there group is going and let their voices be heard accordingly.
Fred Bear most likely was not hell bent when he began to manufacture compounds. Innovation and technology will continue to develop and new products will result. Pope and Young is not trying to get along with everybody as a result of this. It HAS to deal with it to stay relevant with the times.
I still think going from recurves and longbows up to compounds is the biggest jump I've seen in archery during my lifetime.
I'm old enough to remember the same talk when compounds hit the scene, though I was a child.
You hit it writer. This is nothing compared to the change in the archery world that compounds brought! And it was for the good IMHO. I would guess that 2/3 to 3/4 of current bowhunters use a compound. It has greatly increased the number of bowhunters and people interested in archery, which I think is a good thing! It is still a hand held, hand drawn bow.
There are improvements in rifles, shotguns & hand guns. There are improvements in MZs and crossbows. Every form of hunting changes with technology and our current environment. Archery is no different. Failing to support the P&Y club just because they take Ozonics as a sponsor is throwing the baby, towel, soap and bathtub out with the bath water.
(Yes, nice abs Lou! I had wondered what your workout routine was...)
I'm honestly not sure what to say to this...
I have mixed feelings on this one. I understand needing money. Just like how I understand they do a great job of standing up for our bowhunting future. Normally I would say I don't care. It's not like they are saying you have to hunt with an ozonics. However I am in the "ozonics is a gimmick crowd". So it surprises me they are taking money from a gimmick crowd. Will I hold it against P and Y? Heck no I won't. They do far more good for bowhunting then taking money from a company that makes a product I don't believe in.
What I see here is people not looking at the big picture! I shoot compound and recurve and despise crossbows, but...The hunting community needs all the support it can get! if that means Ozonics / Boone & Crocket or even a fishing organization wanting to sponsor Pope & Young so be it, they are helping keep the hunting community strong. We don't post rifle kills from B&C but they help sponsor us. You don't have to use anyones product or method that you don't want to, it's a personal choice, but we need to help each other fight the anti's, and without numbers we can't do it. Pope & Young does a LOT for the Bowhunting community, which takes dollars and help with legislation, which we should take from ANYONE that offers. We have been fighting the anti's big time in California (big surprise) and we are trying to get everyone on board to help: Bowhunters, Rifle hunters, Houndsmen, Fisherman, Pistol Clubs, Even Offroaders. If we stay fractured we don't have a chance, but when you start showing numbers, things get done! Believe me, I'm involved almost daily in this mess.
Nobody is forcing you to use a crossbow or Ozonics, you can hunt with your longbow and wood arrows, or go high tech with wheels and carbon arrows, it's your choice, just don't bash people that are trying to help!
That's my rant for the day, I'm going to go check my bug box now, skulls should be done!
Interesting that ozone is being used as a way to cover human scent. By chemical reaction ozone reacts with organics, including the organics in your lungs. This is why most health organization such as American Lung Association do not recommend use of ozone generators in areas where humans breathe...odor control or no odor control it can be hazardous to your lungs.
Here's another old trick, use the wind to your advantage? Cover yourself in campfire ash and charcoal to limit your scent just like folks did, 10,000-150,000 years ago. Worked then likely to work now.
Interesting that ozone is being used as a way to cover human scent. By chemical reaction ozone reacts with organics, including the organics in your lungs. This is why most health organization such as American Lung Association do not recommend use of ozone generators in areas where humans breathe...odor control or no odor control it can be hazardous to your lungs.
Here's another old trick, use the wind to your advantage? Cover yourself in campfire ash and charcoal to limit your scent just like folks did, 10,000-150,000 years ago. Worked then likely to work now.
It doesn't bother me. But, I don't intend to join either. I think the biggest threat to hunting is politics and hunters. Politicians will sell us out as a whole. The hunters are segregating and trying to cut each groups throat. Pope and Young is part of that segregation. As is any special interest group. I don't support special interest groups for that reason. I support hunting.
What one special interest does to represent the fanatic members, will surely enrage some of the more fanatic members. You can't make everyone happy. Especially when they are fanatic.
I mean no disrespect or harm with the word fanatic. But, when you choose to support a special interest, over the whole betterment of the big interest, you are a fanatic. God Bless
Mad Trapper X2. heheheh...
Great post Tom. Ned hit it too. If I recall Mr Bear was the originator of the Pod. The Poison Arrow. Hit em anywhere and they die. (and some were going ballistic over a light on the end of a knock... because it used "electronics") But not many mention Pods when "Legends" are being revered.
So many people have such a romantic view of history and its heroes up on the pedestal. Fred is an Icon... I respect the man myself from all I know.... but if anything he was an archery innovator, a businessman who promoted his business very well, not the torch carrying "traditional" pedestal he is hoisted upon today. Only now is he "romantic" and "traditional" given the hindsight of time. Him and Howard Hill (of kneecapping elephants fame)... many others.
The biggest problem is romantic history is full of humans... not Saints. No more romantic than what happens today. Mostly just dressed up over time....
I am guessing Pope and Young looks at Ozonics with just a tick higher regard than breath camo and the cough silencer. At best these items we purchase for aid in pursuit of game actually help a bit....at worst they are useless.
I don't doubt that Ozonics helps control ones scent but if you are upwind of a deer and the wind actually gets your scent to his nose....he will smell you. Will that deer always spook? No. Maybe Ozonics helps them spook less but you are never going to take the nose of an animal like a deer, hog or bear out of the equation. Just like you are never going to be able to wear something or do something that makes you invisible to an antelope.
see what u started Jack LOL Next u will mention how the new Cabelas Archery catalog has 13 pages of new xbows for sale more xbows then compounds Talk about cabelas pushing a agenda,, WOW wait isnt Cabelas a partner with the New PY .. Isnt PY against xbows ? Funny stuff. Soon PY will be forced to allow xbow entries in order to survive ,, Many above have said the PY needs to keep up and change with the times . The old PY was good enough change is not always best . I could care what weapon a guy uses enjoy your hunt .
Louis it's "Couldn't care less". Not "could". 99.9% of folks I hear use that phrase get it wrong. I didn't mean to start a sht-show. Seems to me that most are ok with it. Lots of good points and perspective on display.
Might want to Google that Jack....
"Could" go both ways....
One may, or may not be able to care a little less..... although not able to care any less (couldn't) is obviously the very bottom rung on the caring ladder.... =D
Jack seems to be a good poster and I like PAV also but I'm gonna not google and side with Jack and say it's "couldn't care less".Unless couldn't careless is also into play.Couldn't careless would actually be a pretty astute individual I'm thinking so it would be a very positive reflection on bowhunting.
Charlie, how is the Rethread market these days?
The intent of the phrase is to say one could NOT care less, because if you COULD care less- well that implies you do care at least somewhat!!! English-!
I always liked "irregardless".
As in, "I feel the same about P&Y, irregardless of who they partner with."
he he he
Which is correct: I could care less or I couldn't care less?
The expression I could not care less originally meant 'it would be impossible for me to care less than I do because I do not care at all'. It was originally a British saying and came to the US in the 1950s. It is senseless to transform it into the now-common I could care less. If you could care less, that means you care at least a little. The original is quite sarcastic and the other form is clearly nonsense. The inverted form I could care less was coined in the US and is found only here, recorded in print by 1966. The question is, something caused the negative to vanish even while the original form of the expression was still very much in vogue and available for comparison - so what was it?
Not that I care. In fact, I ....
I couldn't care less about P&Y's stance on Ozonics, but to answer Jack's question about the ozonics infused hologram, yes, I would, but to give the deer an even break, I would put down my modern compound and cut his throat with my Gerber pocketknife.
Years ago Evil Kinnevil made a statement that is applicable here about making everyone happy. "The farmer prays for rain and the golfer prays for sunshine. Even God can't make everyone happy".
Joey Ward - yep, another one that makes me cringe... Either use "regardless" or "irrespective" but don't combine the two... DryCreek - nice touch with the Gerber... is that knife made in the US? If it's China, then I no longer endorse...
After some deep-soul searching and taking the pulse of bowsite which often shapes my opinion, I can now say that I too, could not care less about an ozonics/P&Y partnership...
Do you unthaw when you sit frozen burger on the counter or do you unfreeze?
WOW... Jack, <<<
I really had to think about this issue for a couple of days before posting my thoughts.
The core issue is scent control via electronic technology. Scent is, and always will be, an integral part of big game hunting. Be it attractant scents, cover scents, or human scent control (smoking yourself/clothing, a good bath, carbon clothing, or now using ozone). I personally don't think inhaling any amount of "extra" ozone is a good thing for a person to do, however that is irrelevant to the discussion.
I do not see that the use of Ozonics is in any way a violation of the "fair chase" beliefs of P&Y, any more than the already accepted use of various "scent tactics". Part of the uproar is due to the fact that it is an electronic device. OK... so what, so is your GPS, your range finder, your trail camera, on & on & on. The P&Y Club is changing with the times, albeit a little slow compared to technology according to some archers. For other archers, any acceptance of modern technology is an abomination.
While I would never use Ozonics myself, as a member of P&Y, I have no problem with this sponsorship.
I think trail cams have done more to help trophy hunter than anything in the last 3 decades. One outfitter estimated he had 800 of them IN ONE UNIT in Arizona for elk- thats a little much.
I really don't see ozonics fitting with the P&Y philosophy but I'm not the line drafter.
It really boils down to this: P&Y supports and promotes bowhunting. As long as they continue that pursuit they'll have my support as a member and my kids will be members. If I disapprove of one of their sponsored products I simply won't use it. The money that sponsor provides to the organization will still be welcomed with open arms to continue the promotion of bowhunting. We all have a personal choice as to what defines "fair chase" for us. I don't need P&Y to define that for me, I just need them to continue to promote and supprt the sport I love more than any other. Of that they are doing a terrific job and will receive my stamp of approval.
Its when its so called sponsers call the shots from behind close doors!
The bottom line is "electronic device" used to pursue game animals.
That's pretty darn black and white. I mean, either it's an electronic device or it's not. If they want to continue to have any credibilty then they need to go by their OWN STATED RULES!
If they do want to allow ozonics or any of the other electronic gizmos that everyone thinks they need to hunt with then CHANGE YOUR RULES!
They can't have it both ways. Who do they think they are, Obama?
Ahhhh City... that New York thinkin' again.... LOL!
"" city "" is 100% right!
City is right IF that were happen. Emphasis on the IF. The P&Y officers I know personally are of men of integrity who would not think of something like that.
For those of you who live in caves (or NYC, same thing. :-)), Corporate sponsorships of organizations is becoming more commonplace as the costs of doing business rise. Otherwise dues and fees to members would have to be jacked-up astronomically in order to survive.
No need to fear and vilify something that hasn't happened yet. That's what irrational alarmists do. Don't be what you despise.
Lou if i recall your so called men of integrity are against xbows in the archery season correct ? IF they are so against Xbows in the archery season then why take a red cent from companys that are pushing xbows in the archery seasons.
Lou are u ok with xbows in your CO elk archery season? I myself could not care have at it ! but so many above are against the xbows Paul Revere was called a irrational alarminst!!!
I'm not against crossbows in archery season in CO per se. I'm against opening up another segment of hunters to compete for our already tough limited tags or crowd our overcrowded OTC units. If they hunted during ML part of archery season and competed for the ML tags, I'd be ok with it.
As far as sponsors that support something that someone disagrees with, there is no perfect company. Life is about compromises. I know plenty of non-drinkers who watch football games sponsored by liquor companies. There are some Bowsite sponsors who make some products I don't agree with, but I'm not going to fault Pat or stop coming on here because of it.
did anyone really believe that the use of ozonics qualifies as an electronic aid worthy of disqualification.
if so what about if your truck has electronic fuel injection and it is the way you access your hunting area.
and you used said truck with said fuel injection system on unsaid road to cut off/herd deer and antelope while playing then yes.This stuff is easy,got another one?
TBM, come home! I need a good laugh.
Good thing some are still putting the hate on Ozonics and Crossbows, claiming they are upholding the P & Y of old.
Wonder if that same crowd are holding one of these in their hand?
:^)
You couldn't pay me to pick up a PSE....next question! LOL!
I think a longbow would be an advantage over that POS PSE! lol
Not admissible. That bow has a lighted sight.
Yep, you guys are correct. There is nothing like an 80% letoff Mathews Compound to uphold the P & Y of Old.
Lets bash Ozonics and Crossbows some more.
:^)
I'd just like to know how many grams of ozone their machines put out????
So I assume the Ozonic gizmo is portable so a fella can pack it around the Elk woods? Sweet!
Wap
