Another Tuning Question
Equipment
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Bear with me folks, trying to work proshops out of my life and its a bit confusing at first. I have an Obsession Fusion 6. 70 lb DW. Easton DaTorch 330 spine. 29.75 inch arrow. Trying to broadhead tune with a 100 grain shuttle T lock to fly like Field point. My broadhead group is left and as I chase it towards my Fieldpoint group the distance does not shrink, I have chased it until I am almost getting fletching contact on my Riser that is to much. The gap has not closed barely if at all, around 5 inches. Was thinking of going the other way but was wondering what your thoughts were. My DL is 29" arrow is cut a bit longer so a fixed blade will not hit the shelf. TD & Fulldraw, as always I appreciate your feedback in advance:).
Pyrannah, very very aware of hand torque. 99.9% sure thats not the issue. I wish it was cause that is easier to fix, once you know its the problem.
sounds good, I just thought since the groups weren't moving that could be a good culprit...
good luck man... I know I need it.. lol
I had the same problem, but with a diff bow and arrows.
Suggest going back and setup the arrow level with berger hole and tie top and bottom nock sets. Then add D-loop.
Adjust arrow for perfect centershot.
Then I shot at 20 yds with FP's. Once groups established, then BH.
Yoke tune if able or very small, micro adjustments to rest.
Good luck. It took me a month to work through all the problems.
He can't yolk tune Russell since his bow has no yolks. One reason I really don't like the binary bows. With yolks you could fix your issue pretty quick.
The only suggestion I can make is you have to tune it opposite what you think. Try moving the rest to the left. Every time I tune a binary I move the rest the opposite of what I think it should be. Give that a try and report back. Most I have tuned will be out left of the riser. also I would say you are under spined. I shoot a 340 arrow cut to 27 inches and am in the sweet spot for spine. you probably need a 280-300 spine arrow. try taking the poundage down 7 lbs and reset everything to a good paper tune and go back to the BH's.
Verify that A-A length and brace height are close to specs, within 1/4". Then set the center shot back to the typical setting known to work well for that bow, which to my understanding is about 13/16". If you move the center shot as much as 1/16" away from that setting with no benefit, then you know something else is wrong, and you can then move on to working on that.
Any time I've been unable to adjust centershot whereas my broadheads would flip-flop to the right or left of my field points it was because the arrow spine was too weak.
A binary can be tricky to tune sometimes. They definetlg have a sweet spot to them to tune. To much rest movement and you will get what you are faced with. Also check for cam lean. If its overly excessive it could cause that. I have heard of guys having to shim there cams to get them to tune. Tuning was the sole reason I got rid of my elite. It was a smooth bow but a pain to tune sometimes. Another thing I have done. Is have someone else shoot the bow. If both arrows hit the same poi with them then you know it's you. If not then you know it's the bow.
Don't rule out hand torque yet. There is more than one type of hand torque. A relaxed grip is only a small part of it. Most of the hand torque I see is induced before drawing the bow. wear some slippery cotton jersey gloves, or slather up your hand with vasaline. See if that helps.
Another place is your anchor. Some shooters will have the string to the side of their face instead of the tip of the nose. This can induce some side torque on the string as well.
Once you are possitive there is no torque, try taking two turns out of the limb bolts and see if that helps.
On binary cam systems, a couple times, I have had to move rest opposite of the direction I thought it should move. Away from field tip group instead of towards. The movements were always very slight though. Had it work on an elite and a no cam recently. I don't worry about it being a tiny bit out of perfect center shot if the broadheads fly true and impact with the field points. Also, most bows have a range for their center shot. Each of those times, I suspected cam lean.
When tuning a bow, I always try to do the easiest thing first (ie. Moving rest a tiny bit). If it doesn't work then put rest back to starting point and try something different. Hope this helps.
UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok, so I did what some suggested, not all because I am no pro but trying to get to be there. So far I moved the bow down to around 65lbs, the distance in groups shrunk slightly from 5-7 inches to 4-6 apart. Chased it both ways and best I could get was the groups were 3 inches apart and that was after I put 125grain field tip on and started over from center at 65lbs. NEVER have my broadheads been to the right of my field points. I am awaiting new instructions/suggestions!!! Thanks so far.
Adjust your sights that they hit where the broadheads shoot and be done with it! You're trying to get two different projectiles to shoot the same POI I know everyone always wants them to shoot the same but what sense does that make? Think about it. You perfectly tune your bow to be shooting a bullet hole and grouping great. Then you move the rest all around (taking the bow out of tune) to try to get the BH's to shoot them same POI as your field points. Yes they may now shoot the same but the bow is now out of tune.
Can u try a 100 gr at 60 lbs?
Zinger, thats what I used to do man, i used to just practice with my BH and it wasnt a big deal except my target bill was high. I love to shoot except at this moment where my bows are a mess. I believe I can get them correct and really learn a lot about tuning if i work through this. The shops around here are lazy, through a mechanical on it, it will shoot fine. Or, "its paper tuned, thats the last step". I refuse to be a dip$h!t not knowing how to make my own bow shoot like it should. I am sick of depending on someone else to work on my bows. Tomorrow I am building a drawboard and I have a press coming so I can do it myself with the guidance of some of the smartest people I know on this site, and you tube. If I still cant do it I will get on the waiting list to have that guy that crackerizes them work on it. Please give me suggestions if you have them. Pyrannah, I did not take it down to 60, do not want to back my limb bolts out to much further, I am curious about no matter what I do the broadhead group is always to the left of my FPs.
A good deal of what I have learned about tuning came from x-man, Matt, several others here, they are usually spot on. Could very well be a form issue of some kind. Unfortunately that is a tough one to get into over the internet. I'm more of a nuts and bolts guy. Buuutttt....
Aside from grip, the biggest form problem IMO is too long a draw. As x-man said, instead of the string on your nose you have it drawn back along your head/face. That will torque the entire mechanics of the shot to one side.
Are you left handed? Most issues just seem to more often be broadheads hit right for right handers. Seems anyway, no stats I've ever studied. Just curious....
One other thing that is a quick check is get some lipstick, um... somewhere... put some on the vanes, shoot and check for contact, rest, cables, etc. Many times if you can't eliminate a consistent plane, contact is the problem. I've seen so many dismiss that offhand and regret it after banging their head on the wall for some time. WRT lipstick...whichever one you chose to slip out with and screw up will be her favorite color. Just the way it is.... sometimes it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission....
When all else fails, as sticksender and others said, step back, start over. Make sure the bow is set to factory specs and timing. If that is off a person can chase their tail a good long time and never catch it. Set nock/loop a touch high, a 1/16 to an 1/8 maybe, with the shaft through the middle of the burger button hole. Set the rest down the middle or at a recommended distance from the riser with what info you may have.
Start from scratch with everything set down the pipe and hit a paper tune frame, get that down to bullet holes (gonna take a wild guess right now it may be off with a right tear) and go back to broadhead tuning.
If you have to move the rest very much at all off of that center position, an 1/8" or more, something is wrong. Every now and then a twisted limb, bent riser, something mechanical will ruin your day and you pull your hair too.
Good luck and keep at it. Frustrating, but when you get it... it will be rewarding like all those hours spent putting an animal on the ground....
When you get your draw board set up check for cam synch at full draw. Stops should hit at the same time.
What ever you do don't just move sight to point of impact of broadheads. Just because a person can shoot a bullet Hole at say 6' doesn't mean your bow is tuned. It's a good starting point but broadheads will tell all. I know you said your 99.9% sure your not torquing. But check it again. One way to do it is have someone else shoot your bow like I said earlier. Another way to check is to deliberately torque your bow both ways and see what arrow flight is like. I don't know if your shooting an elite or not but I know mine liked a lot of heal palm to eliminate torque.
I know it can be frustrating to tune at times but it will come. When it does its usually something small and overlooked. If your broadheads are hitting left it could be you have to much cam lean. When your at full draw look down or up at cans and see if they are leaning. Severe lean can cause that as well.
" Yes they may now shoot the same but the bow is now out of tune."
With all due respect... that is as wrong as wrong can get. You didn't "detune" the field point "tune"... field points don't CARE what the tune is.
If you understand the mechanics of it, it is ONLY tuned if both FP and FBBH hit to the same point.
You can only "tune" a with FP a couple ways, most common being paper tune. A paper tune is just a rough starting point, a good many good bow mechanics will bypass it all together, but they have a good feel for set up and can set up so close it's a waste of time to hit the paper. I usually hit the paper to make sure nothing is way out of whack. I have a several hundred foot roll of it on a a stand/frame with wheels. Takes a minute and I can verify a lot of things.
And I have NEVER seen a broadhead tuned bow suddenly start spitting out paper tears. "Detuned". They will shoot bullet holes all day long. Paper tune is just a ballpark tune, a rough tune. It's 36 grit sandpaper when you want it 220 in between coats....
Otherwise, you cannot "tune" a field point because they are so forgiving they lie about how they come off the bow. FP lie. Period. They whisper in your ear.. "wow...look at that group... everything is spot on... and you're so big and strong and handsome, buy me a drink..." you get the idea....
Fixed blade broadheads tell the REAL truth of how the arrow is coming off the bow (ya ugly bugger...). They are the only ones who plane when launched crooked. And they don't care about anybodies ego. They just do what they do by the air they see coming off the bow.
FP are only the test group. Pretty much fly straight no natter how they come off the bow. They fly the way you wish every arrow would fly, and would if your bow was perfectly tuned....
The entire idea is to launch straight... as straight as humanly and mechanically possible. When straight you can screw pretty much any head that spins (perfectly) and they ALL hit to the same point. Right along with those lyin' POS field points.....
FBBH.... they are truth. Use what they are telling you. Some are less effected by a poor launch than others. Some are effected by the slightest bit off perfect. Those are actually the ones you WANT to tune with. You may not want to use them in the field, nothing wrong with a forgiving head... but those are the ones to tune with... IF you want a great tune.
Someone tells you if you can't tune this or that head, shoot this other head, it flies like a field point.... they are telling you it's OK to be "close enough". May as well screw on a mech, plenty of folks do. That's fine, I have little against mechs in most cases. They are really crappy band-aids for poor arrow flight though....
TD, I HAVE A Right Handed Obsession Fusion 6. 70 lb DW. Easton DaTorch 330 spine. 29.75 inch arrow. Trying to broadhead tune with a 100 grain shuttle T lock to fly like Field point.
Fulldraw I agree, I will use some of my old ladys lipstick and see. Last night around 1AM i got all of my arrows together and picked 6 to try today to see it that changes anything. Draw board should be finished today accept for the poundage scale that is coming from cabelas. Could it be a 3rd axis problem???????????? I am an open handed shooter I really focus on no torque as I used to torque. I will however have my buddy shoot my bow to see what happpens. Gonna reset my bow today and start over with these other arrows. I found a good basic tuning video From an obsession guy that covers a lot so hopefully I will have the time to get it all done. It does appear that My arrows may be .75inches long to shoot a 330 spine at that poundage but when I lowered the weight it made no diff really so I dont think its all arrow or maybe no arrow.
good luck man... i am now shooting (based on the other tuning thread) 100 grain heads on 300 spine arrow 29" long out of a 70lb bow...
im sure you'll find the issue soon enough... keep at it!!
No its not 3rd axis. That will move poi on steep angle shots. Whatever you don't get discouraged. It will come.
MD....Are your BH's grouping the same as your FT's?
EX: with FT you can shoot a 4" group at 40yds...can you do the same with the BH's? Not concerned with POI.
When you say"open hand", that brings up a red flag for me. Your hand should not be open, or closed, but limp and relaxed. If you are using "ANY" muscles at all below your elbow, you are torquing the bow.
Xman, it is just as you say it, not open, not closed, nice and relaxed. Trophy, i have not went back to 40 yet. I will do that tomorrow and let you know. I did not get to do much today, going to build draw board tonight and check things out. Thanks guys.
MD...I didn't mean to shoot at 40yds. Shoot at your max distance, make adjustments at your max distance, they will be smaller.
If your BH's don't group well at your max disance, forget about trying to get them to hit where your FT hit...its a waste of time. You need to have good BH flight to make the adjustment.
Form is a big issue when BH tunning, bad grip or poor release...got to have both in working order to achieve bh/ft poi.
Trophy, yes I can. When I practice with one or the other my groups are pretty tight with both, no problems with that. Finished my drawboard. Its 130AM going to bed and then I will do more tomorrow. What do you think? About $50 to do. works really well.
u could prolly cut two feet or so off to save some space.. i made the same thing... it was really long i thought and cumbersum to move around...
be careful with dryfires... it can happen quick... lll
Ok, so drawboard is showing that the top string stop is hitting a tad before the bottom so I believe I have a bit of a timing issue. Once my press gets here do I start by putting half a twist in the bottom to make them the same or is that wrong?
Twist the one that hits first.