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Contributors to this thread:
african lion 11-Jul-15
Bou'bound 11-Jul-15
DTala 11-Jul-15
trublucolo 11-Jul-15
tonyo6302 11-Jul-15
GhostBird 11-Jul-15
Bou'bound 11-Jul-15
GhostBird 11-Jul-15
tonyo6302 11-Jul-15
GhostBird 11-Jul-15
trublucolo 11-Jul-15
orionsbrother 11-Jul-15
t-roy 11-Jul-15
moosenelson 11-Jul-15
TD 13-Jul-15
Shiras 13-Jul-15
drycreek 13-Jul-15
hunt'n addict 13-Jul-15
Stekewood 13-Jul-15
muley505 23-Jul-15
IdyllwildArcher 23-Jul-15
TD 23-Jul-15
EmbryO-klahoma 23-Jul-15
tinecounter 23-Jul-15
petedrummond 23-Jul-15
bowriter 24-Jul-15
Bou'bound 24-Jul-15
writer 24-Jul-15
DL 24-Jul-15
Bou'bound 24-Jul-15
DL 24-Jul-15
LBshooter 24-Jul-15
muley505 24-Jul-15
Gazi 24-Jul-15
sureshot 27-Jul-15
b.bowyer 27-Jul-15
TJW 27-Jul-15
Trial153 27-Jul-15
LBshooter 28-Jul-15
loesshillsarcher 28-Jul-15
boothill 28-Jul-15
huntmaster 28-Jul-15
loesshillsarcher 28-Jul-15
JTV 28-Jul-15
beckerbulldog 28-Jul-15
b.bowyer 28-Jul-15
Stick 28-Jul-15
Brotsky 28-Jul-15
Kevin Dill 28-Jul-15
writer 28-Jul-15
b.bowyer 28-Jul-15
loesshillsarcher 28-Jul-15
TD 28-Jul-15
fairchase 28-Jul-15
Buffalo1 28-Jul-15
SteveBNY 28-Jul-15
elkslayer 28-Jul-15
JTV 28-Jul-15
npaull 28-Jul-15
Bigpizzaman 28-Jul-15
patdel 28-Jul-15
deerhaven 28-Jul-15
Knife2sharp 28-Jul-15
SteveB 29-Jul-15
Brotsky 29-Jul-15
loesshillsarcher 29-Jul-15
Brotsky 29-Jul-15
Bigpizzaman 29-Jul-15
Buffalo1 29-Jul-15
Brijake 29-Jul-15
razorhead 29-Jul-15
BigRed 29-Jul-15
writer 29-Jul-15
Tracker 29-Jul-15
soloman 29-Jul-15
Brotsky 29-Jul-15
Bowfreak 29-Jul-15
TD 29-Jul-15
Stekewood 29-Jul-15
Rut Nut 29-Jul-15
tradmt 29-Jul-15
Brotsky 29-Jul-15
Kevin Dill 29-Jul-15
Gazi 29-Jul-15
TD 29-Jul-15
cityhunter 29-Jul-15
razorhead 29-Jul-15
cityhunter 29-Jul-15
Pig Doc 29-Jul-15
JTV 29-Jul-15
TJW 30-Jul-15
willliamtell 30-Jul-15
Bou'bound 30-Jul-15
David A. 30-Jul-15
Gazi 30-Jul-15
HANS1 30-Jul-15
Brotsky 30-Jul-15
Ishy Isomer 30-Jul-15
cityhunter 30-Jul-15
Jim in PA 30-Jul-15
razorhead 30-Jul-15
cityhunter 30-Jul-15
JTV 30-Jul-15
LBshooter 30-Jul-15
JTV 30-Jul-15
Jack Harris 30-Jul-15
razorhead 30-Jul-15
Jack Harris 30-Jul-15
Yendor 30-Jul-15
Sixby 31-Jul-15
Jim B 31-Jul-15
TD 31-Jul-15
gobbler 31-Jul-15
Bou'bound 31-Jul-15
deerhaven 31-Jul-15
gobbler 01-Aug-15
deerhaven 01-Aug-15
deerhaven 01-Aug-15
TD 01-Aug-15
deerhaven 01-Aug-15
cityhunter 01-Aug-15
gobbler 01-Aug-15
LBshooter 01-Aug-15
Jim B 01-Aug-15
writer 01-Aug-15
Jim B 01-Aug-15
Jim B 01-Aug-15
Gazi 01-Aug-15
GhostBird 01-Aug-15
Gazi 01-Aug-15
Jim B 01-Aug-15
willliamtell 01-Aug-15
Bou'bound 02-Aug-15
From: african lion
11-Jul-15
My world is abuzz with rumours of a "jaws" of a lion taken with a bow in Zimbabwe. Can anyone confirm? said to be an absolute beast. Green with envy

From: Bou'bound
11-Jul-15
Looks like the correct punctuation for this thread would be a question mark vs. an exclaimation point. LOL

From: DTala
11-Jul-15
and "for" is not spelled with a "t"..........and "an" has no "d" in it.

From: trublucolo
11-Jul-15
Grammer Kops is here..., :-) lol!

From: tonyo6302
11-Jul-15
It's "Kops are here".

Kop is here.

Kops are here.

It's a plural thing.

Just say'n !

:^)

From: GhostBird
11-Jul-15
"Kops" is spelled "Cops"..................he he!

From: Bou'bound
11-Jul-15
Hey anything to keep a dead thread aLive

From: GhostBird
11-Jul-15
I hav not hurd anyting abot there lion...........

From: tonyo6302
11-Jul-15
I can't speak for Alabama folk, but here in the Old Dominion, we say, "that there lion".

You forgot the word "that", in front of the word "there".

From: GhostBird
11-Jul-15
tony, you are correct, down here in Bamaland we do say "that there"... I should have pade more attentioun in Enlgish class; must have been skipping class that day!

From: trublucolo
11-Jul-15
""that there lion"." as in -"that there lion sumbytch". It all makes sense now :-)

Now it's time to move on over to the "MORE THAN ONE ELK WITH A MECHANACLE HEAD" thread, our work is not yet complete! :-)

11-Jul-15
You guys crack me up.

From: t-roy
11-Jul-15
Where's TBM when we truly need him?

From: moosenelson
11-Jul-15
""that there lion"." as in -"that there lion sumbytch". It all makes sense now :-) Now it's time to move on over to the "MORE THAN ONE ELK WITH A MECHANACLE HEAD" thread, our work is not yet complete! :-)

Title should read 'maniacal' head? I found that one goofy too!

From: TD
13-Jul-15
Could have been a Wold....

From: Shiras
13-Jul-15
So what aboot the loin?

From: drycreek
13-Jul-15
No love...........none at all.............

13-Jul-15
Looks like y'all are missing TBM

From: Stekewood
13-Jul-15
Must have been lion about the lying.

From: muley505
23-Jul-15

muley505's Link
I think this may be the lion you heard about. Looks like an awesome lion. Don't care for the sob story, but the lion will make an awesome mount.

23-Jul-15
13 year old lion with an expected lifespan of 10-14 yrs and they're so upset about the loss of him for his buddy...

He didn't have much longer to live with or without an arrow.

From: TD
23-Jul-15
And 7 cubs likely to be killed..... by other lions.... it's called mother nature and she's a b-i-itch sometimes.

The simple non-anthropomorphic explanation is the lion was driven from the park by other lions. On his last legs. Wish the bowhunter had put a better shot on him but it is what it is.

23-Jul-15
I remember one time when a fella tried to instruct another here on bowsite about their "Grammar" and spelled it "grammer"... Doh!

From: tinecounter
23-Jul-15
Bull’s-Eye, Muley505! It’s not what you say; it’s how you say it. LMAO, the article is a classic example of Negative Journalism 101!

The author did everything he could to negatively portray the taking of “Old Cecil” and somehow just had to get the word “illegal” into the report. So he wrote; “The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association confirmed that Cecil was killed outside the park on private land, meaning the killing wasn’t illegal.”

When he could have written; “The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association confirmed that Cecil was legally killed outside the park on private land.”

From: petedrummond
23-Jul-15

petedrummond's embedded Photo
petedrummond's embedded Photo
Just how big is this lion?

From: bowriter
24-Jul-15
The werd, "said", should have a capital "s". However, I think someone is lion about the lyon.

From: Bou'bound
24-Jul-15
The killing of Cecil the lion, a black-maned inhabitant of Zimbabwe’s Hwange National Park, has sparked outrage from conservationists.

As one of the oldest and largest male lions in Zimbabwe, Cecil was known by park rangers and safari drivers alike—a popular tourist attraction for the thousands of visitors to the park each year.

But last week, the lion crossed just outside the park’s border, and a bow hunter shot the 13-year-old big cat. The hunters reportedly tracked down the wounded lion two days later, killing him with a rifle. The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association confirmed that Cecil was killed outside the park on private land, meaning the killing wasn’t illegal.

“There is an investigation ongoing at this time,” the group said in a statement. “We ask that members and non members refrain from speculating until all facts have been documented.”

Beks Ndlovo, chief executive of the African Bush Camps—a locally owned private safari company—said the hunting has to stop.

“I strongly object and vehemently disagree with the legalizing and practice of hunting lions in any given area,” Ndlovo said in a statement. “I will personally be encouraging Zimbabwe National Parks and engaging with government officials to stop the killing of lions and with immediate effect.”

RELATED: What's Worse Than Shooting Fish in a Barrel? Hunting Lions the Same Way

Bryan Orford, a longtime park visitor and former professional guide in Zimbabwe, had filmed and photographed Cecil on many occasions. The lion was an easy target for a camera, and probably not much skill went into the hunt, he said.

“I used to drive down the railway line road following Cecil and had to wait for him to get off the road,” Orford said. “This walking in front of the vehicle would go on for ages. Other times he would lie in the road, and you had to drive off the road to go around him. That is why it also seems so wrong to hunt something that easy.”

Orford said Cecil’s killing has brought lion hunting back into the spotlight, with pro- and anti-hunting advocates debating the ethics of killing an animal so close to the border of a protected national park.

One source familiar with the situation told National Geographic that hunters have been known to lure big game out of park boundaries with bait. It “indicates to me a level of desperation by the hunting operators,” the source said. “No big male lions remain in their hunting concession areas, despite their claims of ‘sustainable’ hunting practices.”

Despite Cecil’s importance to the region’s tourism—Orford said people would visit Hwange Lodges just to get a photo with him—the cat was also a walking example that old lions, which typically live between 10 and 14 years, can be useful ecologically.

The legend of Cecil started about three and a half years ago, when the then-10-year-old lion was kicked out of his pride, beaten by younger, more powerful males. Hunters argue that as loners, prideless male lions aren’t as important to sustaining lion populations—as they no longer have control of the lionesses to mate.

But Cecil wasn’t finished. He soon teamed up with another lone male named Jericho, and the lions regained control of the region’s two prides, one of which consists of three lionesses and seven cubs under seven months old.

So, Why Should You Care? Oxford University professor Andrew Loveridge, a behavioral ecologist who focuses on the conservation and management of African carnivores, told National Geographic that the loss of Cecil most likely spells the end of Jericho’s reign—and the possible loss of the pride’s cubs.

“Jericho as a single male will be unable to defend the two prides and cubs from new males that invade the territory,” Loveridge said. “This is what we most often see happening in these cases. Infanticide is the most likely outcome.”

The fate of the hunters is yet to be determined, as Africa News 24 is reporting that there is no permitted quota to shoot lions in the Gwaai area—where Cecil was killed.

“The tourism operators, as well as the majority of the Zimbabwean population, are extremely passionate about the wildlife that we have worked hard to protect,” Ndlovo said. “And we will continue to do so to ensure the long term conservation of not only our National Parks but their surrounding vulnerable wilderness areas

From: writer
24-Jul-15
As a pro journalist of 34 years, I can attest that this reporting was, well, crap.

It was more propaganda than anything. It gives basically one side of the story with plenty of slanted presumptions. One call to SCI would have provided plenty to make the story better rounded.

If you'll note, it's one of the same publications that tried to crucify the "Texas cheerleader" who enjoyed hunting.

It was even more slanted than most of what you read on, well, Bowsite.! :-)

From: DL
24-Jul-15
13 years old. I'm surprised he hadn't been killed by younger males. Of course that would have been ok with the enviros.

From: Bou'bound
24-Jul-15
we willl never look good killing named and known animals. it's not about any author or bias it's about optics. can be a mule deer in colorado, an elk in montana, or a big bear in new jersey. these stories are all the same. it does not matter that he would have died soon. it does not matter that he would have hurt his fellow beasts. people don't care. all they care about is it was willfully killed.

a local "resident" get's taken out by a hunter, and it has nothing to do with was it "legal" or not. it's just not acceptable to the vast majoity of people.......even those that are otherwise neutral to the sport.

From: DL
24-Jul-15
I hate these people. Let's give all the animals names like a Disney movie. Kudos to the Huntet. The country scored money on an animal that would have been a bag of bones in another year and worthless.

From: LBshooter
24-Jul-15
So,where s the pic?

From: muley505
24-Jul-15
I've not been able to find a shot of the lion on the ground with the hunter, and I don't blame him in the least for not putting it up anywhere to be threatened and drug through the mud by the anti-hunting crowd. If you Google "Cecil the lion," you'll get lots of pictures and video of him and a fair amount of subsequent stories decrying his being legally harvested. I agree that the poor shot and long tracking job are a bit of a blemish on the hunt, however if I had a lion like that within bow range, I'd probably be shaking pretty good too.

From: Gazi
24-Jul-15
Anyone really interested in this story should go take a look at the thread on Accurate Reloading under the African Hunting Forum. It's pretty amazing and made me re-think my position a couple of times. Without a doubt, it will lead to the limiting or elimination of all lion hunting (also read the thread on the response from the SA Professional Hunters Association). Many posters relate this story to collared (yes the lion was collared) elk, bear, wolves, etc. in the U.S. As usual, I think Bou'bound is on the right track as to how this is playing out.

From: sureshot
27-Jul-15

sureshot's Link
According to this story by CNN, Cecil was killed illegally by a Spaniard with a crossbow.

From: b.bowyer
27-Jul-15
This story seems to attract all the simples so they can parrot their usual platitudes.

From: TJW
27-Jul-15
Crazy fricken world. The story in USAtoday was bad, but the most shocking to me is they're up in arms about skinning and cutting his head off. Just weird to me. they will get more press on this than the kidnapping, rape, and murder of those school girls.

From: Trial153
27-Jul-15
The fox news take on it. Bed press no matter which way you take it.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/07/27/man-allegedly-paid-55k-to-skin-behead-famed-african-lion/?intcmp=hphz24

From: LBshooter
28-Jul-15
The,article I read said it was lured out of the park, and it was murdered. A bunch of crap, if the lion did walk out of the park then oh well. Had a tracking color on, well I doubt it could be seen with the gorgeous mane so let the antis try to make it sound worse then it was and as long as it was all a legal shoot then congrats to the hunter. Hope he's able to keep his trophy, it would have helped if he made a killing shot but bad shots happen.

28-Jul-15
Knowing Walt, it was most likely taken legally. A good example of negative journalism and negative media.

From: boothill
28-Jul-15

From: huntmaster
28-Jul-15

huntmaster's Link
When I saw this article and it was a dentist from the US, I figured Ned was on the loose!!

28-Jul-15
No sir, sticking to North America and its anitis. lol

From: JTV
28-Jul-15
"Skinned and beheaded"...just how else are you going to get the critter mounted....I dont trust crap that comes from the anti-hunting media...BTW, you cant "murder" an animal .....

28-Jul-15

beckerbulldog's Link

From: b.bowyer
28-Jul-15
"BTW, you cant "murder" an animal ....." In this case do you call all the murders in the US, pest control ?

From: Stick
28-Jul-15

Stick's Link
The stupid just oozes out of some people.

From the article...

"Meanwhile, Cecil is still being remembered for his friendly attitude toward people, which made him the most photographed animal in the park."

Cecil the friendly lion, eh? I bet the children used to just line up to ride him like a pony and he was always eager to oblige them.

From: Brotsky
28-Jul-15
Anyone know if the hunter was a member of Bowsite? Certainly a possibility based on his bowhunting history.

From: Kevin Dill
28-Jul-15
To me, the last sentence in the USA Today story is the most telling one:

"According to the AP, this is not the first time Palmer has been in trouble for hunting. Palmer agreed to plead guilty in 2008 for lying to a federal agent about where he shot a black bear in Wisconsin. He was fined $3,000 and received probation."

Doesn't sound good.

From: writer
28-Jul-15
Man, sets things SCI has accomplished back a whole bunch of years.

Stupid media, can't trust any of them. :-)

From: b.bowyer
28-Jul-15
"The stupid just oozes out of some people. From the article...

"Meanwhile, Cecil is still being remembered for his friendly attitude toward people, which made him the most photographed animal in the park."

Cecil the friendly lion, eh? I bet the children used to just line up to ride him like a pony and he was always eager to oblige them."

And you dare speaking about stupid.

28-Jul-15
google the video of the photographer whom thought the lions were friendly. He got out of his car and got eaten. It is pretty gross.

From: TD
28-Jul-15
interesting.... b.bowyer seems to have only signed up to post on this one thread? No prior history on bowsite.

Seems the anti's are following bowsite and out in force..... and calling names as well.... cool.... A troll in the flesh...

I'm guessing the law (or what passes for it in that country) will play out, or hopefully at least the facts.

Until then I would pretty much ignore anything that comes from those sources and links above. Chemical imbalance.... a good steak would do em some good to get the brains functioning.....

From: fairchase
28-Jul-15
If this cat in fact had a tracking collar on, I,IMO see a professional poacher at work. Another bad apple to make all ethical hunters look bad. Not like he has a great track record.

From: Buffalo1
28-Jul-15

Buffalo1's Link
This was the article that appeared on one of our local TV stations website.

From: SteveBNY
28-Jul-15
b.bowyer started a thread on the LW spouting the same peta crap. Small history there - all the same.

From: elkslayer
28-Jul-15
Sounds like this idiot killed this lion illegally. This is the kind of crap that hurts us true sportsman the worst.

We definitely shouldn't be defending him though.

From: JTV
28-Jul-15
B.Bowyer...look up the definition of MURDER...here since your so dense, I'll do it for you... from the dictionary..

Murder: Noun; the unlawful premeditated killing of a HUMAN BEING by another...

Verb; kill SOMEONE unlawfully and with premeditation....

you can NOT "murder" an animal....

now go back under your PETA rock...

btw, the hunter in question says it was his PH that showed him which lion to take, he knew nothing of the collar(hid by the mane) or that the lion came from the park.... he IS co-operating with authorities....

From: npaull
28-Jul-15
It sounds like this hunter was duped while thinking he was doing something legal.

More broadly though - trophy hunting like this is dying. The question we have to face as hunters is will we let it take down the rest of hunting?

Most non-hunters are very sympathetic to someone killing an animal to eat it. Most non-hunters are VISCERALLY GROSSED OUT by someone killing an animal for "sport," and can conceive of no reason whatsoever why anyone should want to or be able to kill a lion, elephant, rhino, etc (unless that animal is causing property damage etc which many of course are).

Now I say this FULLY KNOWING that the economics of having legal regulated hunts for these kinds of animals is actually generally beneficial to both their populations and those of other species, and I'm not trying to make a moral argument here.

But fundamentally, what we're dealing with is the failure of hunters to control their branding. What has happened to hunting is that it has in fact become "sport," with a competition for big antlers and a push for ever fancier, "sexier" gear, etc.

If we're going to save hunting for future generations, we need to push hard to recast hunting in its TRUE light - woodsmanship, conservation, food gathering, and an almost spiritual connection to the land and its animals. We all know that's what hunting is about.

But it's pretty hard to sell that image when a rich dude drops 50K to shoot a collared lion out of a National Park (even in error). "Trophy" hunting like this isn't going to make it. It's just not. There's incredibly strong public opinion against it and it's only a matter of time. I personally think the strategy to save hunting ISN'T to stand behind this guy or this kind of hunt, but rather to acknowledge how DIFFERENT it is from what the vast majority of hunters are doing.

(Again, I'm NOT making a moral argument, I'm making a practical argument).

From: Bigpizzaman
28-Jul-15
Read the "Daily Telegraph" version of the story, did you know Biwhunting was on the rise because it's silent and allows for more poaching?? That's what they claimed!

But seriously guys I know Walt Palmer, there is more to this story than you will read in a one sided yellow journalism piece. Pleas reserve judgement until the FACTS are out!

From: patdel
28-Jul-15
^^^^What he said. I Dont know the guy, but I already feel sorry for him. He is gonna get beat up bad for this, and nobody really knows what happened yet.

From: deerhaven
28-Jul-15
You are absolutely right Bigpizzaman. I also know Walt a little and I think he got caught up in a real bad deal. That is how I am going to think about this until I hear the whole story and I am sure we will eventually hear the whole story.

Remember guys this is not Zimbabwe it is the America and a guy is still supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. I think Mr Palmer has enough problems without people on here jumping to conclusions based on biased journalism.

From: Knife2sharp
28-Jul-15
This was all over the local news since he's a Minnesotan. Honestly, I can't form any opinions based on what the media says. We all can come up with multiple theories how this hunt may have played out, legally and illegally. Which 3rd party story are we going to believe. None of us will likely ever know the real story.

From: SteveB
29-Jul-15
It's likely there is more to the story. Lots of $$ changed hands and if I recall it had a collar on. It was being tracked by a university I believe...and as soon as it stopped tracking - imagine what took place.

I read the Jimmy Kimmel actually was visibly emotional talking about it last night and had some choice names for the hunter. Asked for donations to the research group.

We should never back down from what is right, but one has to practice good judgment in lieu of the big picture.

I'm not saying anything was done wrong here, but would not be surprised with that much $$ involved. I know one thing....this dentist has HUGE regret right now.....

From: Brotsky
29-Jul-15
This entire thing gives us as hunters and sportsmen a giant black eye. At some point we have to stop being our own worst enemies. I fully understand why someone would want to hunt a lion, elephant, or rhino. However, why do you have to do it within a 1/4 mile of a widely recognized park? Palmer had to have known that at the very least. Do it on another concession and make your kill and get your trophy. The other thing we need to do better is stop with all the chest thumping and braggadocio over trophy harvest. There is an entire generation coming of age right now that has only a tiny percentage of it that has ever hunted or even understands hunting but was raised on Disney movies and other crap. The Obama generation if you will. This generation understands nothing outside of emotion and media generated outrage. If we don't show ourselves to be responsible sportsmen, conservationists, and almost romanticize our emotional connection with the hunt then our sport will be doomed. Maybe not for you and me, but for my kids, and definitely for their kids. I someday want my grandkids to be able to visit me when I'm too old to make it up the mountain to tell me about bugling elk and the flight of the arrow, and the long pack out. If we don't focus on what's important I'm only going to hear about how the grandkids heard the howl of the wolf from the back deck and how they wrecked two cars last month from hitting deer on the way into work. But I digress...I hold nothing against Mr Palmer for doing something I would have done given the opportunity, I.E. hunting a lion, but at some point we all need to take a hard look at our past time and the industry it has spawned.

29-Jul-15
I don't know the facts but rather than be ashamed of hunting, I would be more ashamed of negative journalism and negative media. To me, they represent a far larger problem than legalized hunting practice. Which, until proven otherwise, is what most likely transpired.

From: Brotsky
29-Jul-15
Unfortunately I'm afraid real journalism has died somewhere along the way and it's been replaced with "entertainment". News isn't news anymore unless it sells, and it doesn't sell unless it's spun to generate the most outrage with the largest audience. True and balanced journalism is as dead as Cecil.

From: Bigpizzaman
29-Jul-15
Ned hit the nail on the head! As a hunter sometimes things go wrong it's real life people and we know nothing is PERFECT! The SHAME here is "Keyboard Terrorists" wanting to kill Walt Palmer!!! No shame in hunting, let the facts play out and don't judge the actions of one hunter (IF he did wrong) to the group of great people I know the hunting community is!! WE HAVE NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR! Those idiots calling for the death penalty are INSANE and need to shamed!! Those keyboard bullies should be treated as any other bully!! Don't buy into this B.S.!!!!!!

From: Buffalo1
29-Jul-15
I agree that we are all reading one side of the story that can be very convincing. TILL ,TILL we hear the other side of the story which can completely change the complexion of the story.

"The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him"

Who has challenged the media on their side of the story and Mr. Palmer deserves his time at the podium.

From: Brijake
29-Jul-15
The news showed that people had left stuffed animal lions on the Dentist's office doorstep. He's in for a long ride...

From: razorhead
29-Jul-15
well I just read about his black bear hunt in Wis,,,,, that tells me what I need to know,,,,,,, you have to live with what you do,,,,,,,,

If I can hunt bears in my state doing it legally, so can he, and it takes me 10 years to get a tag, when I at one time I could get one every 3 years......

From: BigRed
29-Jul-15
If this lion was as popular as being reported, the guides Mr. Palmer was using knew perfectly well what they were doing. And until he speaks up and tells his story, good or bad, this isn't going away anytime soon. But he's in a bad spot. With his past conviction for poaching, few if any are going to believe he was ni-eve enough to not know the situation before he released the arrow...

Sad story, and bad for the hunting community.

From: writer
29-Jul-15
"True and balanced journalism is as dead as Cecil."

Not so, Brot, not so.

One of the major problems is that with blogs, online magazines, etc anybody can be a "journalist."

By the way, we were getting the same "True and balanced journalism is as dead...." from the antis every time I wrote a hunting/conservation story for the Wall Street Journal, or other non-outdoors publication.

I've even gotten it on some things I've done for Wichita.

It goes both ways.

From: Tracker
29-Jul-15
+++1

From: soloman
29-Jul-15
This guy has a history of poaching, he's an idiot and defending him isn't doing any good. Like I said, these are the guys that ruin crap for the rest of us.

From: Brotsky
29-Jul-15
Writer, but I'm like most consumers of news today. I only see it as fair and balanced if the pendulum is tipped fully in favor of my views! Ha!

From: Bowfreak
29-Jul-15
The public as whole doesn't understand hunting animals like lions. This dead lion could be the beginning of the end of lion hunting and the lion. The end of the lion is the part the general public doesn't understand.

From: TD
29-Jul-15
I want to see a story from the wildebeest perspective.....

From: Stekewood
29-Jul-15
All it takes is a quick look at the media coverage of this and the comments on social media to realize that ALL hunting is doomed. Probably not in any of our lifetimes but the time is coming....

PETA, HUSUS and all the rest of the anti hunting groups are celebrating the death of Cecil. The facts of this case no longer matter. Their agenda has already moved light years ahead.

From: Rut Nut
29-Jul-15
This thing is blowing up all over the News! I saw it on my local news at noon, then a long piece on INSIDE EDITION on another channel. Was channel surfing this morning and heard it was going to be talked about on THE VIEW. Didn't watch that one, as I can't stand that liberal show long enough to wait for the piece- would probably throw up before it came on! ;-)

From: tradmt
29-Jul-15
LMAO TD!!!!!

From: Brotsky
29-Jul-15
A lot of these liberal type talk shows seem to be on during the day while the rest of us conservatives are at work...and no, I'm not on the internet at work :-)

From: Kevin Dill
29-Jul-15
(Stekewood) "PETA, HUSUS and all the rest of the anti hunting groups are celebrating the death of Cecil. The facts of this case no longer matter. Their agenda has already moved light years ahead."

Absolutely. This is nothing but good news and a rallying point for anti-hunting and ARA groups. Think of it like the wacko who committed the SC church murders and represented himself wrapped in the confederate flag. One terrible incident caused how many people and entities to run toward political correctness? This lion hunter will be as vilified as any moral criminal (deserved or not) and sport hunting will be the focal target...akin to the flag. So much damage done by one terrible act.

From: Gazi
29-Jul-15
Please visit www.africanhunteronline.com to see “Lion Conservation Under Threat - Cecil the Lion, the Facts”.

This is being circulated by Ant Williams, editor-in-chief of African Hunter Magazine. Clearly it was an illegal hunt. Not so clear as to the complicity of Palmer. Good read of facts so far.

From: TD
29-Jul-15
OP

"My world is abuzz with rumours of a "jaws" of a lion taken with a bow in Zimbabwe. Can anyone confirm? said to be an absolute beast. Green with envy"

Maybe green, but doubt much envy left..... what a thing to have you and your family's life destroyed over....

From: cityhunter
29-Jul-15
Tim how do u know this Walt Palmer ? According to the courts judgement has been dealt!! Walt was found guilty in his black bear case !

Tim nobody knows a man except himself and God ! Perfect example Dennis Radar serial killer 1974 to 1991.

I hope for PY sake they had no idea of his wildlife convictions .If they did and allowed him to remain a member of the club what fair chase message is being sent, ethics are out the window.

From: razorhead
29-Jul-15
Liberal talks shows????? heck I just watched Fox New where that ding bat Megan Kelly said I should go to Jimme Kimmels website to save wildlife, as he cried on TV,,,,,,

thought I was going to puke

From: cityhunter
29-Jul-15
come kitty kitty !!!!

From: Pig Doc
29-Jul-15
I took Gazi's advice and read about the case on African Hunter Online. If this piece is correct, which I believe it is, the guy is scum and gives all hunters a bad name. His dental practice in MN is being picketed and boycotted and he is likely to lose his business. Karma is a bitch.

Convicted poacher sticking up for convicted poacher here on Bowsite. Not a surprise, but a shame.

From: JTV
29-Jul-15
What ever did happen, it bodes badly on legitimate hunters everywhere. Generally big game hunting in Africa is closely watched and the concessions of the PH's closely guarded and managed with only a certain number of mature animals being taken....its the 40 hour wounding crap that bothers me the most....many here have made bad hits before and at every mention on the damn wounding threads that pop up every year it adds to the anti's claim about how ineffective bowhunting is. We know just the opposite, and wounding rates are actually quite low, but the fuel this adds to their rhetoric will be hard to counter...

From: TJW
30-Jul-15
The only thing saving lions on private land in Africa is the trophy fee of 50,000. I use to like Jimmy Kimmel. A bad shot is never wanted, mostly with 50gs on the line. I hit a pronghorn bad once, would have been folly for peta, I felt terrible, but tell me a better death by mother nature. Fuck kimmel.. Hunters are the only thing that will save predators on private. Africa is a cruel place.. with out a monetary value that out competes cattle or agriculture good freaking luck.

From: willliamtell
30-Jul-15
As several others people have posted, there are a few talking points we can bring up in defense of what we do (and not necessarily for or against what he allegedly did).

1) Most importantly, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions that what walt did was illegal or even ethically questionable. The matter is under investigation and once the facts are known, judgement can be rendered. 2) If the lion wandered out of the park and it wasn't baited or tracked, well that's the breaks. One of the functions of parks is to provide an ecological reservoir so populations can thrive and eventually, spread out of park boundaries. 3) At 13 or so, Cecil was getting long in the tooth. Yes we would all rather that he was torn apart by rival males (sarcasm here) rather than harvested by a hunter who is putting tens of thousands of dollars into the local economy, but it sounds like he and his pride co-leader had their run and produced their progeny. When Cecil and bud took back control of the prides, any cubs not fathered by them were slaughtered too. Nature is efficient and to the winner go the spoils (some call it cruel) 4) Properly managed hunting is the best thing that has happened to game animals (hundreds of millions pumped into wildlife management, habitat protection, etc by hunters)

Non talking points but things to ponder: 5) Probably a good idea to research and know ahead of time about any celebrity animals in the area. I'm not saying don't take it if it is a clean, legal, ethical kill shot, but think about the consequences. 6) Make sure you book with an operation that has a solid, clean reputation. I'm not hearing his hunt company defending the hunter, and that leaves the question out there. 7) The importance of making a good shot. If Walt had let all the air out of Cecil on the spot, it would have been a cleaner ending. 8) If (and only if) this guy is dirty, the hunting community should be prepared to draw a clean line between what Walt did and what ethical hunters do.

From: Bou'bound
30-Jul-15
Don't bring up points to defend. You won't win and will only prolong and add to the rhetoric. The sooner and quieter it passes the better. Hunters never win in these things regardless of facts

From: David A.
30-Jul-15
btw, who is the thread originator?

From: Gazi
30-Jul-15
This from Ivan Carter, probably the best known dangerous game PH in Africa and host of a couple of African hunting shows:

CECIL THE LION I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them . 1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period . 2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit. 3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar. 4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution…. 5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident. 6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life. My thoughts… I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general. There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ... A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE – To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.

A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life

From: HANS1
30-Jul-15
This event will soon bring an end to the importation of lions to the U.S. If it was voted on today it would pass easily as the public would hang any politician that didn't support it out to dry. It appears this fellow knew what he was doing or at least involved in the cover up. So he deserved what ever becomes of this. As some of the above posters stated about a menu of lions being offered that is exactly how it was on the 2 lion hunts that I was involved in as an observer. After seeing how much of a whack-a-pet this was I cannot offer any reason to see it continue. It will be unfortunate to lose the oppurtuniy for the legal hunting of wild lions in areas that can support it.

From: Brotsky
30-Jul-15
I imagine it was quite the "Oh ****!" moment for the PH when they finally killed old Cecil and saw the tracking collar.

From: Ishy Isomer
30-Jul-15
Is it that hard to see a friggin collar on a LION when you are bowhunting? I don't know the facts either... however, previous wildlife run ins build a formidable case for all of us.. It sickens me to have the core of why we do adventure free range hunting with what appears to be "ego" driven trophy hunting at our bowhunting heritage and futures expense.

From: cityhunter
30-Jul-15
Grant this guy was doing wrong so for hunters to defend him is backwards !

From: Jim in PA
30-Jul-15
Copied from Ivan Carter post above:

"To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate"

I don't care if your a bird hunter, deer hunter, bow, gun or slingshot it is important to adhere to the above statement. I have been asked repeatedly about this by people who really only know what they are seeing on the news. Given half a chance I can explain right and wrong and at the very least get them to see that just because we hunt we are not all bloodthirsty yahoo's that the media would like them to think we are. Then the door is open to really explain the conservation side of the argument and why we do what we do.

From: razorhead
30-Jul-15
Ivan Carter has said it best........

Hunting in Africa, saves animals, puts money in the economy and feeds people......

This was a selfish act, by and individual, who just did not care, and it will hurt hunters worldwide.....

If, and only if, after the facts come out, and this was indeed a poaching act, than if I was in the Pope and Young board, I would remove all this guys stuff,,,,,,

Why? Because too many legitimate hunters, who worked hard, and hunted hard the right way, would be dishonored..........

Also, have we forgotten about why we hunt? Have many gotten so far removed, from what the hunt is all about, that its now, have a score card, and a check off list,,,,,,,,,

Each of us should reflect, and each of us, have been tested, and tempted, and we should always remember to do the right thing, and hunt fair chase,,,,,,,,

From: cityhunter
30-Jul-15
Razorhead great words thanks

From: JTV
30-Jul-15
Just remember the being "under the microscope" part when all the stupid "I stuck a deer, cant find him" threads start popping up this fall........

From: LBshooter
30-Jul-15
Razor, yes hunting at large,has become a big score card. Promoted by the industry itself. It's not about putting meat in the freezer it's about how big the antlers are so bragging rights can be had. It's about growing big animals with special food plots and killing them once they hit a certain age or size. The entire industry is focused on getting the next big trophy. It's about the record books, and I have always said this will be the beginning of the end for hunting. When a national TV talk show host cries over a lion being killed the anti hunting community just got a huge booster shot of cash. As you said reflection is definitely needed.

From: JTV
30-Jul-15
Now the f'n Whitehouse and the US Fish and Wildlife is getting involved, combine this with the hollywood dopes, it churns my stomach ...... this is nothing but a huge win for HSUS/PETA and their anti-hunting movements, this will bring them millions of dollars.....

From: Jack Harris
30-Jul-15
I am just catching up to this Lion thing, I know this post was out there for a while but I never opened it because honestly and no disrespect to anyone - any sort of African animal or safari could not possibly interest me less. I don't even wish to be so blessed to have experienced all the big game this continent has to offer that I would even remotely have the desire to spend on that. To each their own though. HOWEVER - I read this from bottom up and am stopping at RAZOREAD's post... Those words from Ivan Carter ( no clue who he is but I will google) should be permanently etched on the Bowsite homepage..

"Hunting in Africa, saves animals, puts money in the economy and feeds people......

This was a selfish act, by and individual, who just did not care, and it will hurt hunters worldwide.....

If, and only if, after the facts come out, and this was indeed a poaching act, than if I was in the Pope and Young board, I would remove all this guys stuff,,,,,,

Why? Because too many legitimate hunters, who worked hard, and hunted hard the right way, would be dishonored..........

Also, have we forgotten about why we hunt? Have many gotten so far removed, from what the hunt is all about, that its now, have a score card, and a check off list,,,,,,,,,

Each of us should reflect, and each of us, have been tested, and tempted, and we should always remember to do the right thing, and hunt fair chase,,,,,,,, "

From: razorhead
30-Jul-15
JACK - Those are not Ivan Carters words, those are mine...... I was referring to the post, that gave information from Ivan Carter about the incident

then I said this, because I believe in fair chase and hope the facts come out, for the better and not the worst,,,,,,

but no matter what the outcome is, I just stated that, because of how I felt...

stay well

From: Jack Harris
30-Jul-15
Ok Razorhead - even BETTER that way and I like it! I would hunt or break bread or toast to you any day! Your words should be etched on the bowsite homepage, especially " have we forgotten about why we hunt? Have many gotten so far removed, from what the hunt is all about, that its now, have a score card, and a check off list,,,,,,,,, Each of us should reflect, and each of us, have been tested, and tempted, and we should always remember to do the right thing, and hunt fair chase,,,,,,,, "

Extremely well said

From: Yendor
30-Jul-15
I have been trying very hard to defend hunting in Africa with all my liberal friends on Facebook. I have tried to point out that big game hunting pays for game wardens that try to control poaching, which is a much bigger threat to wildlife than LEGAL HUNTING. At the same time this was happening 5 elephants were poached nearby for only the ivory. But as hard as it is to explain reasons for this hunting I can't defend this guy any more. Reading about his poaching conviction for killing a black bear at least 30 miles from where he was licensed to hunt. He also had to pay (agreed settlement) $127,000 to quiet a sexual harassment charge against a former receptionist. I figured that he didn't know he was hunting that close to the park. But the fact that the guides lured the lion out of the park by pulling a dead animal behind a truck where he then shot the lion with a bow. But not a killing shot. It took 40 hours to track him and kill him with a rifle. They then tried to destroy the collar. He has done more damage to hunters than PETA ever has.

From: Sixby
31-Jul-15
I guess this is what happens to bowhunters when X bow shooters kill lions illegally. That is if X bows are considered bows by you. Not by me though. I agree with all who have asked the questions as to why is this the big story when Planned Parenthood has murdered sixty million babies and cut many of them into pieces and marketed their little bodies for profit? Also when at this time thousands of Christians and Yahzidies are being tortured, crucified, lined up in long lines and shot in the head. Lined up in long lines and their heads cut off, disemboweled, burned alive., Put in a cage and drowned a little at a time? What the heck is wrong with this country? What have we become when we protect the wicked and condemn the innocent? In this case a power hungry, self centered, individual shot a lion illegally with a X bow,in an area with no quota, Illegal to kill a collared animal, and got caught. Then some of us somehow feel tarred with his stinking brush and blow off by defending his illegal actions. Not me. No way do I accept any guilt anyone wants to tar bowhunters with because of this individuals indiscretion.

All that said I say that the murder of 60 million babies is at least a billion times worse than the killing of a lion. Neither are right , but lets get our priorities in place. Isis and abortion are the real problems of the day along with the wicked people that are supposed to be the leaders of this once mighty nation but in fact are traitors that love our enemies and hate our friends.

God bless, Steve

From: Jim B
31-Jul-15
There was no crossbow Sixby!Pay attention!The anti's are using this as fuel for their cause.You do what you want.I'm not going to stand hand to hand with them.

From: TD
31-Jul-15
That's the thing sixby. Collared animals are 100% legal, collar is a non-issue even though the antis are making it one. (if you can even see a collar in a lions mane at night). Legal in many places in the US too. 20 something lions with collars have been taken that walked off that very same park, all legal. It's actually a part of the study.

Guy is a super slammer, compound bow, not crossbow. Any way you slice it that is a LOT of bowhunting in more conditions, climate and cultures than most of us can even imagine. It's very likely he had been scammed thinking they had the quota permit, all legal. That is what makes the most sense to me, but we don't know. He had a license for lion issued by the country. Even the country is saying he's not really a suspect, the outfitters and guide are. If they had no quota tag for that area.... they took their client on a poaching trip.

Does a person pay $55,000 to poach a lion in a foreign country? I know some think money is no object for many, but really? This wasn't Bill Gates, he's a dentist. He obviously could afford it I would guess, but I'm sure it wasn't pocket change.

So far the bits and pieces coming from their own government is saying the hunter has been cooperating and they have no issue with him, it's the operators they have problems with.

That is the whole problem with this. Folks going off with little to no info. Projecting their own issues into it that have nothing to do with the incident (damn rich hunters...horn porn, trophy hunting, etc....) just as much as the anti-hunters are.

Personally I'm going to hold off throwing this guy under the bus until I hear all the story and all the FACTUAL evidence. So far the media and a good many other folks are way off base WRT the facts.

Tim was right in another thread, sometimes we are our own worst enemy. If it turns out this guy was scammed on the hunt an awful lot of folks should be lining up to apologize to him. Somehow, as right as it would be.... I don't see it happening....

From: gobbler
31-Jul-15

gobbler's Link
We as hunters whether we are hunting with an outfitter, PH, landowner, or DYI have a responsibility to know where we are and to make sure we have correct licenses and tags for that area. After all, we are the ones hunting and pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow.

If you are leopard hunting and a lion walks in then a decision has to be made. It sounds like the decision turned out not to be the right one.

From: Bou'bound
31-Jul-15
the distinction between hunter and poacher only exist in the mind of the hunter. much of the balance of the public draw no fine line or distinction between the two titles.

the reason is simply they hate animals being killed and that is the same outcome regardless of description.

if anyone thinks this would be less of a public issue, or the rancor would be any less, if there was not a question that Cecil was taken 100% legally, the hunt cost $500 vs. $50,000, and it died within 5 yards and 5 seconds of the arrow striking has no clue as to the mindset of those who oppose sport hunting.

From: deerhaven
31-Jul-15
gobbler are you kidding me? You want to tell me you come to my state pay me as your guide and I take you out and pop you in a treestand at 4AM you should know where you are at? Please tell me how you are going to know where you are at. You should know if you paid for a license but how would you know if you paid for a legit license or a piece of official looking paper I printed off the internet. How in the heck are you to know if my paper work and license are in order? Do you ask for every outfitter to physically produce all the documents and have an attorney review them before a hunt? That is if it happened here in the states how would I ever know these things in a third world country?

One other question if you went to Dr. Palmer to get some dental work done are you responsible to know if he is properly licensed? Is it your responsibility as the client to know if he is using approved and lawful methods of dentistry to do the work or is it his as a paid professional? I am aware of what the law says but really what is the difference?

From: gobbler
01-Aug-15
Yes, if you are the hunter it is your responsiblity to know the laws and regulations. Does it happen every time? No it doesn't and the majority of times it works out fine.

But as the old saying goes, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Hunters are busted every year in different states or countries for game offenses, and a lot of those are on guided hunts. After all, we are the ones that are pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow.

Do you think if Dr. Palmer had it to do over again he would have paid a little more attention to where he was at and that he had proper permits to hunt lion there. I think he would.

And yes, I do research any professional I go to whether they are a Physician, Dentist, Attorney, etc.

From: deerhaven
01-Aug-15
You are the exception gobbler. I have been in healthcare for 40 years and never once while treating over 15,000 different individuals have I ever once been asked for a copy of my license or any other credentials about specific training.

I have been on a couple of big game hunts and rarely have I ever known exactly what property I was on nor could I have verified it if I had wanted to. I always researched my outfitter and got multiple references but after that I took his word and everyone I know has done exactly the same.

I am not trying to be argumentative. I would like to point out that the law about who is responsible to make sure the law is followed after you pay someone a lot of money because the law says you have to to make sure you follow the law is a little ridiculus

From: deerhaven
01-Aug-15
Sorry it is getting late here in the Midwest. Let me be a little clearer. Maybe we need to revisit the rules. I understand if you undertake a DYI hunt or a drop type hunt you are 100% responsible for your actions. On the other hand, if the law forces me to pay someone a large sum of money to make sure I don't get in trouble or break the law should that same law still hold ME responsible for every intricacy of the hunt? Is that really fair?

From: TD
01-Aug-15
If I hire a lawyer and he does something illegal in court am I also held responsible?

At the same time.... if the lawyer asked me to lie on the stand about something.... and I knowingly lie.... then I AM responsible.

We shall see. IMO it all centers around if the hunter KNEW what they were doing was wrong/illegal. i.e. if in fact they had a leopard permit and on a leopard hunt and shot a lion that came in.... that would be knowingly breaking the law.

If the hunter was on a lion hunt, was told all the paperwork was cleared, etc. and then this all blew up after taking a lion.... then he has been victimized himself. IMO a crime committed against him. He trusted the licensed professionals he had hired and they scammed him. Like buying a car form someone to find out the papers are forged and the car is stolen. Are you now a car thief?

From: deerhaven
01-Aug-15
Good point TD.

It does boil down in the case and in all cases what was the hunters intent. How in the world would anyone on the street, in the media, or on this site have the faintest idea what a particular hunters intent was at this point? Although plenty of people here and elsewhere seem to think they know.

From: cityhunter
01-Aug-15
TD bad point

From: gobbler
01-Aug-15
IDK, maybe I am the exception? I too was in the health field. I'm a retired ER physician. Maybe I just learned to pay attention to details. I learned early in life that you don't assume anything.

I'm a DNR Game Commissioner in WV and I have to make every reasonable effort to make sure that every time I go hunting or fishing everything is 100% legal and above board because I am representing the State of WV.

If I'm on a guided hunt I ask to see the outfitters licenses and maps of where we are hunting. I also make an effort to read the regulations for that particular state. After all, if the outfitter wants to see my license and take info down why shouldn't I be able to ask the same of him?

I was on an elk hunt in BC in an area where a bull had to have at least 6 pts on one side to be legal. The guide and another hunter saw a nice bull broadside and it looked like a good 6 pt. bull so the hunter shot it. Unfortunately it only had I set of brow tines instead of 2., and it was a 5 pt. The elk ended up getting confiscated and the guide and hunter both got fined. Completely understandable mistake in most everyone's opinion but the law is the law. Some may think the officer should have let it slide but if he had of it would have been picked up somewhere down the line and come back on the officer.

IDK, maybe I'm just too anal LOL

From: LBshooter
01-Aug-15
Just read on yahoo that the antis are pushing for lions to be added to the endanger species list. For all of you wanting to hunt a lion better get it done quick.

From: Jim B
01-Aug-15
Just saw this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/08/01/jericho-cecil-brother-dead/30990931/

From: writer
01-Aug-15

writer's Link
Jim B's link.

From: Jim B
01-Aug-15
Thanks writer.

From: Jim B
01-Aug-15
CNN is now saying that Jericho was taken illegally.With all the inaccurate reporting,who knows?

From: Gazi
01-Aug-15
Two reports on AR say this is fake and there is a news report that the team tracking him on GPS says he's alive and well. The report came from the same guy (Rodriguez) that made the initial report on Cecil....Hmmmmm. But as Jim B said, who the hell knows?

From: GhostBird
01-Aug-15
"Posted on AR from someone from Zimbabwe...

Our take on this whole debacle, our views on how this scenario most likely played out...

1. Palmer books...is sold a lion hunt in Zimbabwe through bushman safaris / Bronkhorts

2. P/hunter / operator have an agreement with said land occupier on Antoinette for the hunting rights to the property, which is roughly 4500acres in extent, it is an old railway farm... Several other properties ajoin and general location falls in the gwaai conservancy area. It is very close to the hwange park boundary , as is several of the other properties and forestry commission areas.

3.the operator has other areas in the matabeleland north area, one of which has a lion on quota for 2015. However the only property where you will get a lion on bait fairly easily is Antoinette as it is right on the park boundary. Most of these areas only the rail track between Bulawayo and Vic Falls which demarcates the boundary between said areas and hwange national park.

4. Operator thinks, let's bait hunt on Antoinette , we shoot the lion if we get a good male on bait, we then skin the animal, change camps, head back to the other area that does have a lion on quota. People will not know we shot the lion elsewhere...or something along these lines..

5. Palmer arrives for his hunt, if the lion was the main species sought, obviously the hunters start on Antoinette property.. Bait is shot, drag the park boundary , maybe even a caller with lions roaring was used, we don't know, but highly likely - they are hunting on PRIVATE land, so no need to hunt with a parks ranger.

6. Hunting party gets a lion to come onto the property, Palmer can't believe his luck, MGM lion. They shoot at it....and wound the lion. Being so close to the park, the lion heads back into the park.

7. P/hunter and operator, landowner now have egg on their faces, you can't tell the client, sorry chap your lion has gone bad luck... They hv palmers $50k. To show nothing is really amiss... Hunting party/p hunter make a report to main camp, national parks main head quarters for that section of hwange park, "we hv wounded a lion, and it has left our property and has crossed into the park". They are assigned a ranger to accompany them back to where lion crossed back into the park,to follow up the wounded cat. (By law in Zimbabwe reporting of wounded dangerous game needs to be made if possible within 24 hrs. To nearest appropriate authority, in this case national parks.cat is followed up and killed.

8. In the meantime hunter/landowner go into overdrive... What's our best option here, how do we sort this problem... Ok, let's get permission for quota transfer between our properties. This is either denied, or the parks officers at main camp are so on the ball, they check up on the land owners quota for 2015 - bingo, they are busted.... How many days it takes for this to play out is debatable , given that lion was followed up, killed. Trophy is then skinned out, head removed, so you can boil to get the skull.. And the trophy had already be moved from the property.

9. At this point it's pretty plausible Palmer doesn't know any better. He's thinking what a monster lion I just got. Hunts on another of the operators properties and then heads home to the states.thinking I hv just had the best safari etc...

10. Quota transfer doesn't get approved, and the researchers by now see their collard subject not moved much in the past few days.. Other lions killed along the hwange park boundary this year, WITH a proper quota allocation and permit etc, the p/hunter notified the research guys, return the collar etc..its forgotten about a few weeks after... That lion is now a statistic in the data base, location killed,date killed etc lion doesn't have a name, no photo lodge close by who know the lions every move, no controversy . End of the story.

11.in the meantime, research guys or local lodge guides get to hear "Cecil" hunted and killed.... "Did you know property had no quota".... These guys tried to pull a move with "quota transfer"....."collar apparently tried to be destroy".. It gets spread around on social media, and before you know it, it's gone viral.... WORLDWIDE.

12. It's now not something that a fist full of us$ into corruptible officials hands that can make the problem go away... It builds momentum by the hour, and Officials begin to investigate, and well the rest is history as we all know

So from our side, I would say mr Palmer has VERY little chance of being prosecuted in Zimbabwe. At the end of the day, the professional hunter who is guiding the client and whose name appears on the TR2 hunt authority form, is in charge of the hunt. The buck stops with him!! So if Palmer did shoot the lion on instruction from the professional hunter. It would be p/h's word against clients word if Palmer eventually or EVER for that matter was to appear before a Zimbabwe court of law.

My money would be on the hunter & landowner being prosecuted , and not the client. We continue to follow the proceedings.

From: Gazi
01-Aug-15
Posted at 8:36 in Zimbabwe:

Expert says Jericho's collar sending out normal movements

A wildlife expert from South Africa claims Jericho is alive and well.

Drew Abrahamson wrote on Facebook: "Jericho's collar is sending out normal collar movement up untill 20 mins ago!

He also posted this image apparently showing the lion's movements.

Maybe if CNN and USA today blow this one, they'll just go away. Wishful thinking.

From: Jim B
01-Aug-15
That's great.I hope that is correct.It's scary to realize how badly they can misrepresent the facts.

From: willliamtell
01-Aug-15
Ivan Carter and Ghostbird brought a lot of good info on the topic. Sadly it appears the law was broken. Whether Palmer was ignorant of the circumstances would/will have to take a court of law to sort out. Dude is definitely hung in the court of public opinion.

Who was the PH? There's no way that @sshole wasn't up to his neck in it. Regardless of whether Palmer was ignorant, get's extradited or not, that guy deserves to get what is coming to him. Unfortunately it already leave a bad and VERY public smell.

I'd like to think that this forum makes some effort at weeding out the bad apple outfitters and guides in the US and nearby - recall the mexican hunt operator who was ripped up one side and down the other on this forum a few months ago for his unethical conduct. Let's get the operator's name on this forum. More information will undoubtedly continue to come in, but based on what I've already read I am ready to write off any solidarity/association as a hunter with this mess.

From: Bou'bound
02-Aug-15
We are continuing to "major in the minors" here.

Who benefits, and what changes if we get word today that the lion was legally killed on proper land with proper documentation, it was not lured off the preserve, it died within 5 minutes of the shot, and all the other allegations were false. In fact the only thing that is the same in both that new reality and the original story of lies was that the lion is dead.

it only matters to a few people (Palmer and the guys he contracted with). He now, from a legla perspective be "safe". He is still a pariah and his business and life are otherwise trashed, but he is safe legally.

Other than that it matters not to anyone else. The damage is done, the martyr-cat has served it's purpose, hunting has been vilified, etc.

No anti-hunter has ever said i support legal hunting it is the illegal stuff that i vehemently oppose.

Damage done.

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