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Lion King Lion, killed in Zimbamwe
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Contributors to this thread:
razorhead 27-Jul-15
R. Hale 27-Jul-15
IdyllwildArcher 27-Jul-15
LBshooter 28-Jul-15
sawtooth 28-Jul-15
mountainman 28-Jul-15
Pat Lefemine 28-Jul-15
TEmbry 28-Jul-15
Knife2sharp 28-Jul-15
JTV 28-Jul-15
WV Mountaineer 28-Jul-15
gobbler 28-Jul-15
Bou'bound 29-Jul-15
bill v 29-Jul-15
Knife2sharp 29-Jul-15
Knife2sharp 29-Jul-15
Kevin Dill 29-Jul-15
bnt40 29-Jul-15
Huntcell 29-Jul-15
SteveB 29-Jul-15
Sage Buffalo 29-Jul-15
MathewsMan 29-Jul-15
Bigpizzaman 29-Jul-15
SteveB 29-Jul-15
deerslayer 29-Jul-15
LBshooter 29-Jul-15
Jaquomo 29-Jul-15
razorhead 29-Jul-15
midwest 29-Jul-15
gobbler 29-Jul-15
bnt40 29-Jul-15
LBshooter 29-Jul-15
boothill 29-Jul-15
SteveB 29-Jul-15
boothill 29-Jul-15
tinecounter 29-Jul-15
ROUGHCOUNTRY 29-Jul-15
Rut Nut 29-Jul-15
cityhunter 29-Jul-15
sureshot 29-Jul-15
ELK ELSEWHERE 29-Jul-15
Rut Nut 29-Jul-15
Jeff Durnell 29-Jul-15
drycreek 29-Jul-15
TD 29-Jul-15
gobbler 29-Jul-15
xring 29-Jul-15
WV Mountaineer 29-Jul-15
TJW 30-Jul-15
cityhunter 30-Jul-15
TD 30-Jul-15
Jim B 30-Jul-15
Bullhound 30-Jul-15
Pig Doc 30-Jul-15
Bullhound 30-Jul-15
cityhunter 30-Jul-15
Bullhound 30-Jul-15
cityhunter 30-Jul-15
Redman 30-Jul-15
sawtooth 30-Jul-15
gil_wy 30-Jul-15
TD 30-Jul-15
cityhunter 31-Jul-15
Bou'bound 31-Jul-15
Bou'bound 31-Jul-15
Kevin Dill 31-Jul-15
Bou'bound 31-Jul-15
Dave 31-Jul-15
Kevin Dill 31-Jul-15
Keef 31-Jul-15
Medicinemann 31-Jul-15
Bou'bound 31-Jul-15
PAstringking 31-Jul-15
Medicinemann 31-Jul-15
Bou'bound 31-Jul-15
gobbler 31-Jul-15
Pat C. 31-Jul-15
Elkhuntr 01-Aug-15
PAstringking 01-Aug-15
redwillow 02-Aug-15
bb 02-Aug-15
gobbler 02-Aug-15
From: razorhead
27-Jul-15
I see someone shot this lion, outside of a park, the lion even had a name "Cecil". report said it was shot by a crossbow (go figure), and finished off with a rifle.......

talk about publicity SA does not need,,,,,,,,,,

so many hard working PH's and efforts by SCI etc to keep game strong and then we have this idiot, who will paint many with the wrong brush,,,,,,,

From: R. Hale
27-Jul-15
Not sure what the hunter did wrong other than make a bad shot. Legal hunting area is legal hunting area. Many hunts in Africa would not take place at all if not near some boundary. International boundary, concession boundary, private/public boundary. That is hunting today. Think Bighorn in Alberta, elk in WY etc.

Agree it is very bad PR. Might or might not be the hunters fault.

27-Jul-15
There's already a thread on this.

From: LBshooter
28-Jul-15
The article makes the hunters look like criminals," they lured the lion out of the park", "the lion was murdered", give me a break. I doubt that the tracking collar was visible with that huge mane and what hunter out there would not have shot that lion if it showed up on the bait? If they are worried about park animals getting shot by legal hunters/operators then they need to put high vis collars on and shave the mane down so that it can be seen. R Hale said it, the only thing the hunter did wrong was make a terrible shot but that happens. I have a feeling that hunter is going to loose his trophy, we'll have to see what Spain does?

From: sawtooth
28-Jul-15
Thankfully it was not killed by a bowhunter. Bowhunting does not need this kind if media.

From: mountainman
28-Jul-15
"Thankfully it was not killed by a bowhunter. Bowhunting does not need this kind if media."

It's all the same to the general public. An arrow is an arrow to them.

From: Pat Lefemine
28-Jul-15
Yeah, this will do no good.

I do find it interesting that the PH has been suspended by the Zim PH association. It could be CYA for them since this is terrible optically, but there may be more to the story.

From: TEmbry
28-Jul-15
I read that it was killed in a region with no lion permits for the year and that the PH intended to tag the lion under a tag for a different region. Probably would have gotten away with it and the clients would be none the wiser if it wasn't for the fact this lion was wearing a tracking collar and had more Facebook followers than Kim Kardashian.

The fascinating part to me is how much negativity this draws out from both sides of the hunting fence (playing the hypothetical that everything was done legally). Weird how when it comes to certain animals we care so much more than if it was just a deer or impala or black bear...

From: Knife2sharp
28-Jul-15
Spain? The other thread said the hunter was a Spaniard. He's a Minnesotan dentist and has taken multiple African game. The local story around here also mentioned him shooting a black bear in WI back in 2006 that he shot in a zone that his tag wasn't valid for and he was caught and charged. There is way too much misinformation about the lion hunt to know what really happened.

But I don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald fired a single round either.

From: JTV
28-Jul-15
How many of these threads are there going to be ?????

28-Jul-15
No one is certain of the facts as of now. So many different stories and such. Initially, it was written as no laws were broken, just a famed lion killed on private property outside the park. Now, this tag thing. Hopefully time will tell and show all was legal. Until then, we ALL need to hold judgement and await the facts. And make no apologies for the hunters actions regardless. If the later stories are correct, he could be as innocent in this whole as you and I. God Bless

From: gobbler
28-Jul-15
I think we all should wait until the entire story and evidence has been presented from both sides. Anti hunters are licking their chops for stories such as these to promote their cause.

If he is innocent, then he is innocent. If he is guilty of game law violations then he should be called out by the hunting community on it. As hunters, we have to denounce illegal and unethical hunting. In the future if we don't then the 80% of the non hunting ( not anti hunting) population will judge us by our inaction.

From: Bou'bound
29-Jul-15
Lead story on cnn.com. Including photo of him posing with a "dead" ram and a "dead" whitetail they said was a blacktail that was also dead. What were they expecting him to pose with live animals. Both were bow kills

From: bill v
29-Jul-15
I read where the guy is from the upper mid west and he is a bowhunter, with P&Y entries. Glenn Hisey was even quoted in the article.

Bil V

From: Knife2sharp
29-Jul-15
Here are the inconsistencies that I've heard from our local news and the CBS national news yesterday evening.

1) The lion was killed with a bow - the lion was killed with a crossbow. This alone begs the question how valid the information we're receiving really is, because crossbow has the connotation of a 'poachers' weapon. From his hero photo, it's clearly a compound bow.

2) The lion was killed outside the game reserve on private land - the lion was killed outside the reserve on land where hunting lions is prohibited.

3) The carcass of an animal was drug around behind a vehicle luring the lion away from the reserve - the lion was baited.

The media around here has no clue how hunting in Africa works so they want to blame the hunter, not the professional hunter or guides. He's closed his dentist office for the time being but people are going there are leaving stuffed animals by the door.

Here's my take, the only violations that may be in question is the baiting. If you can bait lions with a carcass of another animal and he shot the animal on land that the professional hunter said was legal to hunt and he had a valid tag, then there really is no debate. Also, is it legal to shoot animals with collars in Africa? Was the collar visible when he shot? They aired footage of the lion when he was alive and I really couldn't make it out. I think protecting live animals with a collar is a very stupid practice, because now it places ownership on a wild animal. In MN for example it is legal to shoot bears with collars for that very reason. From what I've heard, the hunter has not been contacted by the authorities in Africa, but two guys in Africa are in court.

It would appear most people are upset about intent, like the animal was specifically targeted. One news media said this lion had a black mane making him quite distinguishable from other male lions. To me that just seems like another log on the fire.

From: Knife2sharp
29-Jul-15
IMO, this is blown way out of proportion because the people at the park reserve are upset about losing their main attraction, which means lost revenue.

From: Kevin Dill
29-Jul-15
One reason this is garnering so much attention is the overall focus on animal poaching on the African continent. Between National Geo, CNN and the Nightly News we see a steady stream of pics/stories about poached and rotting animals. Rhinos, elephants, cheetahs, lions...all are being killed by true criminal poachers for financial gain. The majority of Americans abhor poaching/wasting animals simply for money or ego. Even a legit hunter subjects himself to scrutiny for trophy hunting these animals. Throw in factors like proximity to a park or reserve; baiting to pull animals from a park; $56k payment; hunter's reported history of previous game violation; and finally...a poorly-shot celebrity animal which didn't die until 40-odd hours later. IF these are all true, it's no wonder a firestorm of negative sentiment is flaring up.

I have no knowledge of this American or his ethics. I'm 100% sure some things are misrepresented in the stories and reporting. If even a fraction of this stuff is true it plays very badly for hunters who mainly or often hunt to add trophies to a collection.

From: bnt40
29-Jul-15
Top news story around here. The stuffed animals are piling up in front of his office and a protest is planned for today. Whatever the truth may be I do know that the picture the media is painting is not good.

From: Huntcell
29-Jul-15
Now there's and interesting niche in the trophy room a collection of stuffed toy animals from the antis so far all I have is a letter saying I should shoot the animals with a camera and not a bow and arrow

From: SteveB
29-Jul-15
It's likely there is more to the story. Lots of $$ changed hands and if I recall it had a collar on. It was being tracked by a university I believe...and as soon as it stopped tracking - imagine what took place.

I read the Jimmy Kimmel actually was visibly emotional talking about it last night and had some choice names for the hunter. Asked for donations to the research group.

We should never back down from what is right, but one has to practice good judgment in lieu of the big picture.

I'm not saying anything was done wrong here, but would not be surprised with that much $$ involved. I know one thing....this dentist has HUGE regret right now.....

From: Sage Buffalo
29-Jul-15
This is a mess and could have been avoided had the hunter used common sense.

There's no digging out of this for the hunter.

This wasn't a case of a guy shooting an animal to later find out he shot a celebrity lion.

This wasn't a bison that strayed over the line in Yellowstone.

This was akin to shooting Mickey Mouse.

Thanks to him we all look like the stereotype(s) we hate.

This was just sheer stupidity.

From: MathewsMan
29-Jul-15
Most of the media is exploiting the typical anti-views.

Even to our bowhunting community, lots of N. American hunters don't get Africa and how some of that works...

The alleged hunter Walter Palmer is a Super Slammer, and I believe all his animals are registered with P&Y. He is a well respected hunter and dentist.

Some of the facts are weird... I am actually shocked that a Zimbabwe Lion hunt would got for only $50k. The places in S. Africa (where game is owned by the property owner and most ranches have fencing), Our African PH had a catalog of Lions you could take, most were in the $75k to $100K plus range.

Almost all Lion hunting and Leopard hunting is either spot and stalk or baited- so the baiting thing really is not shocking or something not commonly practiced for harvesting such an animal.

I guess my gut says, if he was hunting in an open zone, with proper permits, taking this known lion has more to do with political agenda than the ethics of how it was done...

None the less I'm sure he will get a bad wrap due to the publicity.

I guess I am also a bit suprised to read that he used a Crossbow- that does not seem to fit with his archery hunting here in N. America. Probably another misstated fact.

From: Bigpizzaman
29-Jul-15
Sage what the Hell are you talking about??

You know your statements to be FACT?

Even IF and I say IF he is guilty why would it give me/us a Blackeye? Aren't we told daily not to judge the actions of one to a group??

You can buy into this Liberal B.S. but I won't!!

Micky Mouse?? Really? WOW!

Too much time in the Northeast Bro!

From: SteveB
29-Jul-15
"Our African PH had a catalog of Lions you could take, most were in the $75k to $100K plus range."

Statements like that I find disturbing, legal or otherwise. It's sounds much like reading the menu on the wall at McDonalds and choosing which one you want, even if that isn't the case.

Bad for us all. Unfortunately, a lot of big dollars is making more and more hunting go this way.

From: deerslayer
29-Jul-15
This too shall pass....

From: LBshooter
29-Jul-15
Wow sage , I didn't see the lions name tag in the pics or videos I've watched. Must of just put on when he left the park and fell off before he went to the bait. One thing for sure that we do know, is that Cecil was well above six years old limit.

From: Jaquomo
29-Jul-15
Looked like a compound in the photo. The media is twisting this all up. Said the news woman this morning, "An arrow wasn't enough to kill this beloved creature, so they had to track it for 40 hours and put it down with a rifle".

Now they have arrested two of his guides and want to question him about possible poaching. Likely a show to quell the outrage..

From: razorhead
29-Jul-15
they are now reporting, that he has or was involved in some activity in regards to a black bear killed in Wisconsin, that was on fox news........

this guy is going thru the ringer, no doubt about that

From: midwest
29-Jul-15
PETA's statement on Twitter:

"Because shooting #CecilTheLion in the park would have been illegal, he needs to be extradited, charged, &, preferably, hanged."

From: gobbler
29-Jul-15
When I killed my lion in 1999 we were hunting and baiting on a private ranch that bordered Hwange park south of Victoria Falls. At least at that time a lot of the hunting for elephant, buffalo, and lion was done along parks catching animals traveling in and out of parks. Just the same as hunting close to Yellowstone hoping animals will stray or migrate out of the park.

However, I don't know the details of this particular hunt. Again, these are the types of stories the liberal anti-hunting media salivate over. Unfortunately, as we have seen recently in many police actions lately the media and people are quick to jump on and declare someone guilty before the facts are known. Like I said before, wait till all the details are presented before jumping to conclusions one way or the other. If he is truly found guilty of game or law violations then the hunting community should condem this type of activity.

From: bnt40
29-Jul-15

bnt40's Link
An article from the strib for your reading.

From: LBshooter
29-Jul-15
Funny how all the protesters who would show up don't blink an eye when babies are aborted, but when it's an animal, look out. The dem congress woman should have the justice dept investigate plan plan parenthood for selling baby parts. How many death threats has this guy gotten? I doubt any of those are from hunters, so I guess the anti hunting crowd draws the line of killing at animals but not humans, what a joke. If the hunter did commit a violation them he should pay the cost but until then he should be left alone.

From: boothill
29-Jul-15
SteveB, really you make this statement, and your disturbed by it?

"Our African PH had a catalog of Lions you could take, most were in the $75k to $100K plus range."

Statements like that I find disturbing, legal or otherwise. It's sounds much like reading the menu on the wall at McDonalds and choosing which one you want, even if that isn't the case.

Are you blind to the fenced whitetail and elk herds here in the states? Go pick a deer from a picture and pay by the inch for steroid fed 300" deer. This poor guy is never going to be the same again. Mostly because of the liberal/anti-hunting PETA loving media. Amazing how this crap happens isn't it.

From: SteveB
29-Jul-15
Yes, very disturbed. High fence operations here I don't feel much different about either. That said, I feel very sorry for the guy...he's probably a very good person. All the fact aren't out yet, so too early to say if anything wrong was done. Innocent until guilty. However....a menu for killing just doesn't seem right and I'll bet most guys agree.

I stand by that sentiment without apology.

From: boothill
29-Jul-15
I totally agree with you as the whole pay by the inch thing is out of hand. Doesn't matter what continent it is on. Folks want big horns and too lazy to to hunt them the right way. All about the Benjamin's these days.

From: tinecounter
29-Jul-15
The “Cecil” incident isn’t the dentist’s “First Rodeo.” He pleaded guilty to killing a Wisconsin black bear in 2006 under very similar circumstances. Yes, the media insists on reporting the lion was killed with a “bow & arrow.” But the real problem is that this idiot is now the “poster boy” for archery hunting. Believe me; this incident will take a lot longer to die than the 40 hrs. It took “Cecil.”

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
29-Jul-15
This was sketchy and I'm embarrassed for other hunters who have to now apologize and take it on the chin for this guy. I can't relate since I've not hunted Africa or a lot of other places around the world. I'm into eating what I shoot which seems to not be the case with a lot of the Safari club types......

I think collectively our country is off-kilter when there's more outrage about this lion being wounded and killed and did suffer than MILLIONS of babies being aborted and now baby parts being sold and not nearly as much outrage??? Apparently, some people want the guy killed and hunted down and his dental practice shut down. Feigned anger and selective outrage are making this a crazy world to live in for sure.

From: Rut Nut
29-Jul-15
Yep, I bet his practice is for all intents and purposes...............done! There will be people boycotting and demonstrating in front of his business if he tries to continue. Probably have to move out of the state. The antis will go to any lengths to hang this guy- if they can't do it literally, they'll do everything in their power to ruin his career/life! :(

On Inside Edition today they said the "authorities" plan to charge him(not sure exactly with what) and he could get 8 years in prison.

From: cityhunter
29-Jul-15
I bet he gets his PY critters taken out of the book ,Im sure the IRS is going to be looking at him one person said . He paid a sexual harassment law suit to one of his workers . He plead guilty to killing a blk bear and lost his hunting rights these are the things i read just minutes ago .. I bet he wish he never gut shot Cecil ! Maybe less golf at the conventions and more shooting :>

Im shocked with the past wildlife conviction he was still allowed to be a member of PY? He did violate PYs fair chase rules . The PY club has become a target due to this . And why would he be allowed to enter animals in a super slam club if he is a convicted of a wildlife crime ?

Rutnut its not just antis its folks on the fence that this upsets . With this social media it only hurts us hunters .

From: sureshot
29-Jul-15
I am surprised at just how much media attention this is getting, and it seems to still be growing. I too see this as a worse case scenario for hunting as a whole. I am sure that the thought of shooting a lion just to skin it and remove the head for a trophy is repulsive to most non hunters,let alone the gut shot and 40 hours tracking it took to finally kill it. I understand that now USFWS is getting involved. I too was surprised to see him a PY member with the black bear conviction.

29-Jul-15
He should photo shop Rowdys face on the pic to confuse the media

From: Rut Nut
29-Jul-15
City- I don't do facebook, TWITter or any of the other social meda. but my wife said she saw it on FB today when the story came on the evening news. Too bad folks don't get this upset when we sign a horrible treaty with a terrorist nation or an illegal alien criminal kills an innocent young woman!

From: Jeff Durnell
29-Jul-15
Aaaahhhh.... trophy hunting.

From: drycreek
29-Jul-15
What WV and gobbler said. Right now there is much confusion as to " the facts ".

SCI has suspended the membership of the hunter as well as the PH until " the facts " become clear.

If we are lucky, we will actually learn the facts in time, instead of the hysteria from groups like PETA.

From: TD
29-Jul-15
I bet money somebody was gonna eat that cat. Don't know of any game of any kind that isn't eaten there, maybe baboon or some primates.... but probably them too.

By law you can't take meat home from Africa. But ask the guys that have hunted there, it all gets eaten.

My understanding is the hunter had a "lion license" sold to him by the government, but have to hunt them in an area that has a quota permit. Apparently this area did not. Unscrupulous outfitters or guides will take game in one place and use the quota permit from another to tag it. Besides being "famous" this lion was collared. They knew exactly where he was. That wasn't going to fly with this one.

Other rumors are there were gov officials paid to look the other way on these "transfers". Guess in Africa everybody has their hand out....

If they skinned it and then remover the head I'd be pizzed. You would think they would want to cape out the head and keep the hide all one piece to get a decent mount.... that's the way I've seen it done. A guy here I know is a pretty good taxidermist, killed an African lion (rifle). When he got everything together and ready he flew in a guy from TX that specialized in big cats to do the mount. Was at his house just before the TX taxi showed up and he says "check out that drum" I open the lid on a 55 gal drum to look in and there's a tanned lion head floating in solution "looking" at me.... made my hair stand up... funny feeling even when you know it's dead....

From: gobbler
29-Jul-15
When I hunted in 1999 I had to plan 2 years ahead to wait because of the quota in the Matesi area.

From: xring
29-Jul-15
"Besides being "famous" this lion was collared. They knew exactly where he was. "

The people tracking it probably did, but how can you say the PH knew where he was? I read they were a mile from the border of the park. I'm sure there's other lions around the area. Wow, you convict the guy before you even understand the facts.

I'm betting when the dust settles it will be found that the dentist isn't charged with anything. If anyone is at fault, it's the PH for violating the quota...if it existed.

And as for his bear hunt, I don't know the details of what he really did. Perhaps he was near the border of the area and accidentally crossed into another unit. I'm sure none of you have ever accidentally done that. Just because he pleaded guilty to something doesn't mean he was guilty of that...it's called plea bargaining. I've seen it happen where it's the easiest, cheapest, and safest way out of a mess like that.

29-Jul-15
xring x 2

From: TJW
30-Jul-15
Wow sweet lion. I hope to arrow one one day. The only thing that will save our chance to get one one day, is he is worth 50,000. Any land owner in Africa is not going to keep them around unless they are worth something. If not cattle or farming, then they are really dead. No hunter wants a bad shot, thank god they were good trackers and didn't waste it. Peace

From: cityhunter
30-Jul-15
Xring its called plea bargaining when they got u by the balls and his hi dollar defense lawyer has no choice. U usually cut a deal to a lesser charge to avoid court.

From: TD
30-Jul-15
"The people tracking it probably did, but how can you say the PH knew where he was?"

The PH didn't know where he was. The Park did. That is why they couldn't do a quick swap on the quota. If not likely nobody the wiser, officials were paid for, kill a lion, swap the quota, a done deal.

My understanding there are a good number of lions in the park....they were just hoping a lion would move out of it, maybe check their bait. They'd have to be mental to target that specific lion. My bet is they loaded their shorts when they finally got the lion and realized what happened.

If you have prior speeding tickets does that automatically make you at fault in an accident? Each case is individual and should be investigated and treated as such.

From: Jim B
30-Jul-15
Here is another good post from the Zimbabwe wildlife conservancy. Interesting to see how people on the ground in Zim view the situation vs our media hype.

Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation new member posted 30 July 2015 20:11 Hide Post Information we have just received from some senior officers at Zimbabwe parks H.Q in Harare . A few points of interest -:

As far as national parks are concerned, they have no issue with the client. He complied like any other hunting client is required to.

Everyone at Harare HQ are intrigued with the "Cecil " hype... Each and everyone of them ask the same questions that 95% of other Zimbabwe citizens are asking.... Who is Cecil? They had never heard of this lion...until news broke on social media. Everyone at main camp national parks station in hwange when asked about Cecil , said "we do not know of this lion, you had better talk to lion researchers maybe they can give you more information"

There was a board meeting today at the HQ which was attended by senior staff and board members. Even in this meeting people where asking "who is Cecil"? With some of the board members who had recently visited hwange saying, if he was as famous as the media have made him out to be, how come we did not get to know of Cecil ..??

The issue of quota transfer came up for discussion. I have it on good authority from several of the board members that this diabolical practice has been stopped with immediate effect.. At last,

It's a pity something like this has to happen to influence basic conservation decisions.

From: Bullhound
30-Jul-15
Jim B, that is very interesting.

I simply cannot imagine the guy paying $50k to poach a lion. That just doesn't make any sense at all. For all you "bowhunters" hanging this guy, well, you should just sign up with PETA, cuz you're doing their dirty work for them.

From: Pig Doc
30-Jul-15
xring, this from a WI resident on the Ashamed thread:

"The bear was a mistake too? He had a zone d tag- killed a big bear near Clam lake with Hounds-in zone A-- his tag in D would 40 miles away just to the border- why was it a big one-because he had a crew of hound hunters searching roads and baits -only looking for a 6 inch track-- he has done this before. These types of hunters have money and will go out of the way and law to kill a P&Y I don't feel sorry for him at all.. Its a black eye for us hunters with low budgets trying to do things with fair chase. "

As city said, the guy was busted and plea bargained his way out. He also got busted for fishing without a license in MN, and bought his way out of a sexual harassment suit for $127K. Other than all that I'm sure he is a great guy.

From: Bullhound
30-Jul-15
Pig Doc,

I sure as hell don't know this guy but have to ask you:

Do you really believe this guy would pay 55k to go poach a lion? please no BS, just answer that question.

I cannot come up with any way in my mind a person would decide to pay tht kind of coin to go poach anything.

From: cityhunter
30-Jul-15
BULLHOUND IM sure the intent was not to poach this lion from the start ,but just maybe a guy drops 50k on a hunt and its looking like a slim chance to connect. So bend a few rules laws maybe . 50k will make some folks do some wrong things in the field .

From: Bullhound
30-Jul-15
city, yeah money does things to some people. I think if you are spending 50k on a hunt, well, you have enough coin to come back empty handed once or twice. Time will tell.................

From: cityhunter
30-Jul-15
Bullhound i spent 12 k on a grizz hunt i cant afford to go back today My guide /owner brought me to a unit that closed on june 1st we set sail on may 31st 10pm we landed on the new unit after midnight june 1st I asked my guide owner isnt this unit closed June 1st ,,His reply was Heck louis they cant tell what time we killed a Grizz . I was now faced with play stupid and hunt or do the right thing and not hunt i sat on the beach and lost another day of hunting .

From: Redman
30-Jul-15
I know Walt and really feel bad for he and his family. This could have happened to anyone of us on here who books guided hunts. In 2006 Walt drew a Wisconsin Bear tag and booked a hunt with an outfitter, arrived at camp and was taken to his bait site the next day to hunt for a large bear that the outfitter had gotten on trail cam pics on his bait site. The bear comes in and Walt shoots it. A few days later, Walt is being investigated for shooting the bear outside of his unit that his tag was in and violating the federal cities laws by taking an "illegal" animal across state lines. Walt is prob one of the best archers that I have ever met, he can consistently shoot a tight group from 0-100 yards.

From: sawtooth
30-Jul-15
Bullhound, Head hunters pay big money all the time for trophies. Outfitters in Alaska will call you when they spot a record book animal and you have 24 hours to get there, this is commonplace. Sheep hunting is like this all the time as sheep tend to stay on the mountain long enough for a hunter to get there. I personally know outfitters and booking agents who do this for moose, mule deer, sheep etc. Africa is no different. Look at sheep hunting in Montana, it is all over the internet.

Guys, this is very commonplace and negates record books IMO. Takes money to have the opportunity. Just the way it is and has been for over 40 years. Do you think the guy with several species registered in Safari Club, or even P&Y did it sitting in their normal deer stand with a little Tink's 69?

From: gil_wy
30-Jul-15
My biggest issue... Lion King was released in 1994, 21 years ago, and this lion was 13... And why wasn't his name Simba? So confused...

From: TD
30-Jul-15
LOL Gil!

Big 5 African hunts are expensive. It's a world class adventure, not a treestand in the backyard. That some can do it more power to them. I hunt every week all year. I dream adventure hunts every day. I'd love to do a lion or leopard hunt. Buff maybe. Heart thumping stuff, not some lil shaky case of buck fever.

Scary to me, I can see myself getting screwed on a hunt like this, I trust the folks I'm hunting with to have it all worked out if they say it's all worked out. Honestly I hunted Canada once and never saw my tag till I signed and punched it. Thought that was how they did it there. For all I know they went in and got the tag after I shot the bear. Trusting, gullible.... yeah, probably. As I saw stated on bowsite by some folks who regularly hunt Africa.... they don't honestly know if the game they took was on the up and up.... it's a very confusing place with daily changing regulations and then local "rules"...

Once the lion was on the ground I bet all heck broke loose. But I certainly don't begrudge anyone for lion hunting, sheep hunting or any other legal hunting. What they paid for it is not my business.

To me this isn't about hunting at all really. It's about unscrupulous outfitters and guides. To the hunter, more power to em if that's their choice of hunt.

From: cityhunter
31-Jul-15
Redman can u pull up the charges on the outfitter to back your story?

From: Bou'bound
31-Jul-15
'Walt is prob one of the best archers that I have ever met, he can consistently shoot a tight group from 0-100 yards"

and lee harvey oswald was an expert sniper. so what does marksmanship have to do with how one's uses their talent?

the lion was wounded and lived for 40 hours and had to be polished off with a gun. must have pulled that shot or it maybe was longer than 100 yards.

From: Bou'bound
31-Jul-15
'Walt is prob one of the best archers that I have ever met, he can consistently shoot a tight group from 0-100 yards"

and lee harvey oswald was an expert sniper. so what does marksmanship have to do with how one's uses their talent?

the lion was wounded and lived for 40 hours and had to be polished off with a gun. must have pulled that shot or it maybe was longer than 100 yards.

From: Kevin Dill
31-Jul-15
Since these threads are running willy-nilly and topics are all over the place:

If the dentist placed his trust in the bear outfitter and got a bad deal; and if the dentist placed his trust in the lion outfitter and got a bad deal; in both cases laws were (by all appearances and logic) violated when the animals were killed. Does a hunter gain immunity from or clemency for these violations? If a bad outfitter (I've hired) tells me I'm good to kill a (illegal) sheep today and I take him at his word, should I get any leniency for my violation? Or am I 100% responsible for knowing the laws of whatever venue I find myself hunting in, and then following those laws?

Does this seem to follow the old "If you lay down with dogs you'll get up with fleas" warning?

How smart does a dentist need to be to keep himself on the right side of the laws?

How much legal risk is a guy willing to take to build his trophy collection?

How many times do you claim bad luck before it becomes bad judgment...and then bad behavior?

From: Bou'bound
31-Jul-15
the laws over there are not consistent. there is legitimate risk that even best efforts will find you in the crosshairs of an international sensation. it's part of the drama of hunting far off places. goes with the territory.

From: Dave
31-Jul-15
Why talk about govt corruption and PP abortions when you can sway the discussion to a stupid lion that was killed by a hunter that was going to die of old age anyway? Some of you guys need to get off your high horse and investigate the facts before hanging a fellow hunter out to dry. While you're at it, don't forget to renew your PETA membership because that's what some of you sound like. And another thing, those who live in glass houses... Never mind. I forgot y'all are holier than thou.

From: Kevin Dill
31-Jul-15
"the laws over there are not consistent. there is legitimate risk that even best efforts will find you in the crosshairs of an international sensation. it's part of the drama of hunting far off places. goes with the territory."

Point taken. Not too different from going in for a simple cleaning and coming out with a root canal.

From: Keef
31-Jul-15
Couldn't help but notice a protester on TV with a sign stating "I AM CECIL". I think someone should make a sign "LION LIVES MATTER".

Come on America get a grip on reality. Do you ever wonder how these people get time to protest? Do they work for a living?

From: Medicinemann
31-Jul-15

Medicinemann's Link
For everyone's consideration......written by a non-hunter, no less.....

From: Bou'bound
31-Jul-15
"Point taken. Not too different from going in for a simple cleaning and coming out with a root canal."

I bet ole' Dr. Palmer will be doing a few less cleanings and root canals in the future.

From: PAstringking
31-Jul-15
Aaron Neilson:

Friends, for the past couple of days I've been pounded with PM's, emails, FB messages and even text messages (phone calls I'm sure too) asking me for my opinion on the Zim lion case of late? Well, let me first say this - I'm still in Africa - where I've taken 2 lions in the past two weeks. So I've been having more fun than anything, but the messages won't stop - so I'll address it publicly (with what I think I know) and those who give a darn can take it from there.

Firstly, it's a lion - it's not "Cecil", or Bob, or Sammy, or any other damn human name. It's a wild lion, living in a wild national park, period. Greenies love to attach human names/emotions to wild animals, but the fact remains. When Simba sees Pumba, he kills Pumba, period!!!!!

When I first heard/saw this issue, I was under the impression it was simply a case of a hunter legally shooting a collared lion, in a legal hunting area, under legal hunting conditions. Which in my opinion is 100% acceptable. If you need an explanation as to why, ask Dr. Easter, Dr. White, or any other legit scientist. It should be self explanatory to be frank! If anything was in fact illegal however - then that obviously changes everything. I simply am not 100% sure of the circumstances so I must at least refrain from casting stones until proof is presented beyond a reasonable doubt!

I too shot a huge maned lion on Antoniette (same property) in 2002, weeks prior to the land invasions. Back then all was totally square, as was all the hunting. The lion I shot was also collared, and yet we had no idea of this until we walked up to him - and there it was. He was so well maned, that seeing it was virtually impossible from any distance at all. A point I make for Mr. Palmer, more so than anyone. Dr. Loveridge came and collected his collar the following day, thanked us for calling him, told me about my lion and carried on without any issue at all (I read he's now singing a different tune on this one, but likely he knows more about this lion than does the rest of us).

I obviously have no idea what the outfitter/PH knew, but I highly doubt Mr. Palmer knew anything about "Cecil". I follow lions more than most, and I've never seen/heard of him? The lion that is supposedly Africa's most famous lion?? If however either the outfitter, or client, knew about this particular lion and his status, even I would question the motives for hunting him? I simply think I would pass, and not because I disagree with hunting collared lions - but some things just aren't worth the trouble they cause - including a big maned lion. If any part of the hunt was illegal - then all the rest is really a moot point, as the entire act was illegal. Then the question is, who's responsible? In my opinion - that responsibility falls upon the outfitter/PH, especially considering the hunter is from a foreign country.

I do get seriously tired of the "ethical" token thrown into the mix. Who are you/I to determine another man's ethics? We have laws to determine what's right/wrong, ethics are your own to decide!!!

I fight for the right to shoot / hunt what science and the hunting community has determined is an acceptable lion to take, which really amounts to two simple criteria. Old/mature enough male, without dependent cubs. This lion was supposedly 13 yrs old (I hugely question that in the wild) clearly old enough for hunting if that's in fact the case. It's also been reported the lion was the father of little cubs - if so, that's a problem. But if the pride stayed within the park, there's a decent chance the hunter didn't know that, how could he? Again, seeing it from all sides - the best we can, is important IMO.

As for "luring" the lion out of the park, unless you are an experienced cat hunter in Africa - your opinion on this matter is worthless. If they used an electronic call however, that's illegal and a different story!

I suppose I personally am less likely to want to hang Mr. Palmer from the get-go (prior to all facts being presented) because I way more than most, can sympathize. I can absolutely guarantee you all, nobody on planet earth gets more hate mail / death threats regarding the hunting of the lion - than do I, period! Hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of them! Multiple petitions to shut down my FB page, stop me from entering Tanzania, etc, etc, etc. It never stops - ever!!!!!

And whenever an incident like this happens the frequency rapidly increases, as do the vile, disgusting things people say. Honestly, I have lost any/all sense of respect for every single person who slightly / in the least, opposes legal hunting. When men and women are threatening my family, my girlfriend and anyone else associated with me simply cause I'm a lion hunter, then I'm a mad mother fu**er! When my girlfriend is in tears over the VERY recent death of her brother and some anti tells her he killed himself because she's a hunter, I'm a mad mother fu**er! When they tell her they plan to kill her son so she too can feel the loss of a child, I'm a mad mother fu**er!!! When they tell me they hope myself and my family are beheaded by ISIS, I again am a mad mother fu**er!!!

So, for those that think I'm sometimes a bit more callus or not sensitive enough to the issues brought about by the non hunting / anti hunting public, perhaps the above paragraph explains it a bit more. I refuse to ever again give one single inch to these clowns, these cowards, these most uneducated, mis-informed, mis-guided, godless, narrow minded hypocrites! When your only argument is to threaten, name call and chastise others - you know then you have no argument at all.

I AM HUNTER! For that I make no excuses, no apologies, I back down to no one, and I hide from it not! United we stand, or devided we fall - it's up to us to decide??? I'm armed at all times, and I'm ready - either step up or shut up!! My money, my time and my efforts go to Lion hunting/conservation, for that I am proud!

From: Medicinemann
31-Jul-15
One of the more thought provoking responses I have read, since this debacle started.....and written by someone with more"boots on the ground" experience than the majority of Bowsite combined....

PaStringKing....thanks for sharing.....

From: Bou'bound
31-Jul-15
So PA how many lions have you killed?

From: gobbler
31-Jul-15
I had always wanted to kill a lion and was fortunate to kill one on my first lion hunt. It took 2 leopard hunts to get a leopard. I always viewed those type of hunts as a once in a lifetime hunt. First because of the cost and secondary because I viewed them as sort of an apex hunt. Unlike deer and elk where you always try and do better I felt it was the overall experience and one was enough for me.

I grew up reading Roark and Capstick books and wanted the experience. I've killed 3 of the big five, I could have killed an elephant but didn't see anything over 30 lbs. because of cost and importation bans I'll never kill an elephant or rhino, but that's ok with me. I had 3 great African hunts, but I would like to go back someday for a second Cape buffalo.

From: Pat C.
31-Jul-15
PA why let facts get in the way of a good lynching?

From: Elkhuntr
01-Aug-15
I hope Palmer doesn't go on an apology tour on any of the liberal rag tv shows, regardless of his guilt or innocence. they'll eat him up and it will make things worse in terms of perception.

From: PAstringking
01-Aug-15
Bou'bound.... None. I a merely a messenger. A strong believer in hunting for conservation and trusting someone who has been there.

This is somewhat off topic but one of the best "looks on someones face" I have ever seen was when the president of the US Fish and Wildlife is standing in front of a room of SCI board members trying to explain why they stopped the importation of ivory.

A man stood up and said..."I just want to ask you one question...Have you or anyone on your committee ever actually been to Zimbabwe or Tanzania?"

They stood there and had to honestly shake his head NO...because not ONE person on the US Fish and Wildlife board had ever stepped foot in either of those two countries. Instant deer in headlights.

From: redwillow
02-Aug-15
Personally I think the guides should be the guilt party, because they should have been more familiar with the situation and area than the hunter was. Also did he shoot this Lion on Park property or on land where he was fair game. If so, the lion is the one that made the mistake by venturing into a fair game area. Razorhead, is that you from Chanhassen? Larry from Oacoma, SD.

From: bb
02-Aug-15
The guides should be the guilty party and anyone else who is guilty of a crime. However, I think it's prudent to wait and see if a crime was actually committed. I have a feeling that with all the mis-information being thrown around that there may be no guilty party. I can't help but think that this may be a case of the government trying to change the rules in mid game as a means of appeasement.

From: gobbler
02-Aug-15
From what I've read the only consistent thing that I've heard is that the lion was shot on a private ranch that did not have a lion quota this year. But with all the stories IDK if that is true but it appears that is what the charges against the landowner and PH seemed to focus on.

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