I am ashamed at the way many "Bowhunters" have reacted during the recent "Cecil" scandal. As Mike Tyson always said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the FACE!" The Left just through a Right Cross into ours!
How did some react? Throw Walt under the bus before he's given his side of the story or been convicted! Scream o what a "Blackeye" it gives us! Play the wealth card, he's rich so it's his fault. And the worst part is many swallowed the entire B.S. story "Hook, Line and Sinker"!
Hunting rights are in Danger and we will lose the battle, not because the Left is so good at attacking us but we are HORRIBLE at DEFENDING them!
We should be PROUD to be Bowhunters! If this incident is what all Bowhunter are, do the killings in Chicago portray all Black People? Does Isis represent Muslims?
The Left's story on "Cecil" is so full of holes, they obiviuoly had an agenda putting it out! Crossbow or bow? Lured Cecil out of the park. Murdered him. License or no License? He was a gentle Lion!
Newsflash! Every damn Lion in the Park has a name from the researchers How does one "lure" one specific Lion out of the over 500 out of a park the size of Hwange? Murder and animal? There was a License, weather or not it was valid for the area is in question. Gentle or tame Lion, Cecil was a"BadAss", not afraid I would have paid to see a treehugger attempt to pet him!
Do what you want everyone is entitled to an OPINION, doesn't make it right! I for one will not hang my head but will counter with a hook at every chance! I'm not the best fighter but I won't go out without swinging, hopefully we can come together or we will risk losing what we love!
#BowHunterPride
"The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period ."
IF this is true, Walt Palmer poached that lion.
If this is NOT true then I agree with BPM 100%.
Well said!!
Well said!!
You are the bowhunters Donald Trump!!
Ashamed you should be for the support of a poacher!!! Sad day for all the legal hunters this stunt will give all hunting a blk eye ! louis
My first post on this as well. I am somewhat in Jack H's ballpark as I pay as little attention to the main stream media as I can. I am not a fan of social media either, other than Bowsite. Information, whether accurate or not travels so fast it affects those involved almost immediately.
I don't know Mr. Palmer or anything about him. If these allegations are false then I feel for the man as his reputation and practice are most likely damaged beyond repair. The news media and all those making threats and accusations should be held accountable though they most likely will not be.
If the allegations about the bear and this lion are true then he will suffer the consequences.
Unless you were in Africa with Mr. Palmer I don't see how you can condemned or defend the man?
And judges too. :-)
PY is based on ethics and fair chase Walt Palmer shows little ethics .. Sad day for PY
Leaving the site over comments....well that seems like a childish response. You should be more upset of the firestorm that his situation has caused than any attack on him.
He paid $55k to hunt a lion. I think a reasonable person giving a guide serious coin to hunt, would expect that the license/quota system is okay. How many here have travelled to Africa and checked on such a thing? I suspect that number is an extremely low percentage.
KJC I supported the PY club for 15 years hard core member i was . But allowing members with wildlife convictions and the club has knowledge of it, goes against all ethics and fair chase in which the PY club was based on .
Louis
KJC i ask u should a hunter be allowed the privilege into the PY club with past or present wildlife convictions .
Ivan Carter is an expert on the subject and his opinion carries weight, the rest of us, myself included is nothing more than GOSSIP and SPECULATION!
I will not give my opinion on a public forum, I know Walt, I've hunted Lions and hunted in Zimbabwe but in no way does that make me an expert.
The more I learn about this guy, the more I believe he's just a poacher that has no problem bending some rules or breaking them.
Whatever the truth is, it's giving all bowhunters a black eye. Even the rifle guys are attacking us now.
Not cool.
Statement Regarding Protection of Walter Palmer Neighborhood
Because of the increased traffic in the neighborhood of Walter Palmer’s residence, the (city) Police Department is monitoring the neighborhood to ensure the safety and security of the residents and their property.
The (city) Police Department is not providing personal protection for Mr. Palmer.
I agree. I happen to think support for hunting is at a high point right now. Of course it can be hard to think that with all the screaming going on from the left right now, but that's how it always goes. Squeaky wheel syndrome.
With all the shows like swamp people, mountain men, etc, out there right now, I think hunting has become more mainstream. Heck, even people like Mark Zuckerberg are into killing their own food. Our world is going crazy, and folks are really starting to get into the survivalist mindset. Along with that brings a renewed interest in hunting. If you don't agree look at the support for guns. Even though our country has had a major shift to the left in almost every other area, support for the 2nd amendment has increased dramatically over the past few years. In fact I believe it's the one area we've actually shifted a bit right.
I do agree with you Tim, but I really do think this will pass. It is ironic though how the left likes to use words like alleged, but only when it comes to minorities and career criminals. As for the aforementioned dentist, so much for innocent until proven guilty!
Social media is only making this phenomenon worse.
Defending this hunter... If the media reports are correct.that he pled (not convicted) guilty to the WI bear issue. Now I also read that he was cited in MN for fishing without a license??? It's a little hard to defend this hunter.
Agree, lets wait and see what falls out in the wash.
I'll fight like hell, and will go down with the ship if necessary, but I think this will all blow over in a few days. Bowhunting is part of me....it's who I am. Nothing is going to change that...especially an incident halfway across the world on another continent. I'll refute any disparaging comments in regards to bowhunting, and even do my part to educate the uninformed about all the positives we bowhunters contribute.
Take a deep breath folks...the smoke will clear. They didn't take my Confederate flag...they sure as hell arent gonna take my bow! ;-)
Bigpizzaman's Link
And now it seems Dentists are under attack for making too much money??
elkmtngear's Link
I posted this in response to a (animal lover)friend of mine on FB...("what a disgusting pig, I hope his patients leave his practice")
One of her friends read the article and said this:
"I agree with what the article says. Hopefully it raises the appropriate awareness. People should be tweeting about how to fix this rather than the hope of the death of this man. It was a terrible thing that happened but it happens too frequently that this one instance shouldn't be the complete main focus".
I consider it a minor victory...get the focus on the problem and quit trying to crucify one guy (which does nothing to solve the issue).
Best of Luck, Jeff
Agreed, thanks for voicing your opinion.
I don't think bowhunting will be harmed by this in the long run.
What this will hurt, is the importation of lion, leopard and elephant trophies. . . . Lion is #1 on their list right now to ban importation into the US, and this may get it done for them.
Regardless of the outcome of the legalities of the hunt, etc., that is where I believe we'll see this have long-reaching effects.
It's a shame, but the killing of "Cecil" (does any one else see the irony in naming a Zimbabwe lion after Cecil Rhodes?), has probably sounded the death knell for importation of lion trophies into the US, and that, in turn, spells trouble for wild lion populations in Africa.
In 100 years, our kids will be saying "You know they were right, when we hunted elephants and lions, they existed in the wild places."
Bake
But Ken if the PY club has knowledge of Walt Palmers blk bear conviction in the past and has allowed him to continue in the club Then Shame on the PY , But if this Walt Palmer kept it silent and continued to enter animals under fair chase rules well it shows ,he lacks ethics and Shame on Walt Palmer .
Ken This can only be a good thing down the road maybe the club will rethink folks that have wildlife violations and remove there membership , Ken PY is based on ethics fair chase poachers lack these .
- Should we manage wildlife populations (both numbers and demographics) or leave them unchecked? - Does this extend to predators? - Would it be better to have someone pay to come and manage them or would it seem better to pay someone to do it with tax payer dollars?
I find it's hard for anyone to answer the first question with a leave them unchecked and they quickly jump to a point where it's clear that would need to extend to predators. And it's hard to argue that it's worse to have someone pay to be a wildlife management tool versus having to pay someone to do it.
People respond with comments like lion populations are low and declining and it's worth pointing out that this hunting is heavily regulated and quotas are established to ensure that the harvest is good for the long term sustainability of lions as well as the animals that interact with lions. And that despite numbers being lower than they are, there is still a need to manage numbers and demographics (male:female ratio, age structure, etc) in certain areas.
I point out that if something illegal was done, they should be punished. That if something unethical was done, they should be punished as well. But we shouldn't rush to judgement despite what the media reports.
Cool heads and a sound response are needed for times like this. We've all seen how irrational emotion has led to policy with negative consequences for both wildlife and hunters (look at cougars in CA, wolves in the West, and bears in NJ). You know the antis will try to capitalize on this, and the second you give an inch they take a yard. We do need to stand up and fight but we need to do it smartly. It'd be nice if we had a voice in the mainstream media, but we're silenced...so it falls to all of us to try and be that voice.
I can see where the hunter might have thought he was legal when, in fact, he might not have been. It happened to me once. Damn lucky for me I didn't kill anything. But, it won't happen ( to me ) again because I learned from my mistake.
I don't have to defend this guy's actions, only mine. No one represents me except me. I've had very few people in my life criticize my hunting, and they were all carrying leather purses and wearing leather shoes, so that didn't fare well for them. One of them was eating a ribeye that I paid for. Once.
Pat what i find more up setting his how and why he was a member of the PY club and allowed to enter animals after his wildlife conviction !
This news and the reaction thereof, juxtaposed to recent events, is a referendum on our culture and we have been found lacking. Jimmy Kimmel got teary-eyed over Cecil. I guess he wailed, dropped and tore at his chest at the Planned Parenthood story.
The narrative of the hunter should be informed by the context of the culture at large.
If it turns out to be illegal then he should be called out on it. If it all was legal and above board then he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Something like this could happen to any of us.
For those of us that have hunted Africa several times one of the reasons that their are concessions along park boundaries is that it is wild country and animals can come and go. Thousands of elephants, lions. Etc. have been killed over the years by wandering off of parks onto hunting land. In fact, a lot of people hope for that to happen.
It's no different than legal hunts for elk, deer, sheep, and buffalo that take advantage of the animals migrating out of Yellowstone for the winter.
As long as it was legal it's fine, if it was illegal then he should be called out on it.
Regardless of what the facts truly are, this story has become a firestorm, and bowhunting's sitting at Ground Zero. Public opinion isn't on our side, and this guy's past history is going to make it tough, if not impossible, to change that opinion even if it turns out he did nothing wrong. In that regard, this IS a black eye for bowhunting, intentional or not.
In the meantime, I say the same thing over and over when people ask me what I think of the "bowhunter that poached that lion" (their words, not mine). I tell them I won't comment on it until the facts come out, if they ever do. I also remind them that the media's great at promoting their agenda, so don't believe everything you read or hear.
I'm seeing entire sub-divisions of glass houses here, and folks who don't have any idea of what happened tossing stones.
Watching tv last night a guest on Fox claimed they darted the lion, dragged him out of the park and then shot him with the "crossbow". That is how flippin' crazy this has all gotten.
I'd bet money it went down like Pat said. The hunter paid a good chunk of money for this hunt and had no reason to think it was an illegal hunt. After the lion was taken the chit hit the fan.
We will lose on this one, this one situation. Even if it was legal signed and sealed. We will lose because what an insurance exec told me once referring to a suit where a child was badly injured through the direct actions of the father tossing his kid off an inflatable water slide. He said when they wheel that kid into the courtroom in a body cast..... you lost. Facts won't matter, not even a little. You lost.
When they show pics and clips of that lion.... facts won't matter. Heck, they already don't seem to matter to many who I would think would.
I wouldn't hunt in a 3rd world country if it was all expenses paid. I kissed the ground the last time I came back.
The worst tragedy would be if we learned nothing from this. If you think the internal battles are bad here, you should check out the Africa Forums...hunters just killing each other and the quotes ending up on anti-hunting web sites. There are a hundred lessons in this episode about how we as bowhunters first. and hunters overall. should defend and protect ourselves. To waste this opportunity to unite and develop a proactive strategy for dealing with these inevitable f-ups will be just surrendering to the left.
A lot of the outcry here is the hunting of lions in general and that his interest in wanting to pursue one is somehow incomprehensible.
I understand too the animal was well known, but again 99.99% of the population never knew about Cecil before this story. Our society has gotten pathetic and some need to refocus their time and energy on more important matters.
Bigpizzaman's Link
Staggering outrage over this issue of a poached lion. And yet...Ho Hum and a great big yawn response about the Planned Parenthood folks discussing how to tear out a fetus without destroying salable tissues! All the while, the U.S. taxpayers foots the bill for this truly creepy government agency and this disgusting pastime. What did the poaching incident cost the US citizen? How many humans suffered?
They (the authorities in Africa)have a legal system don't they? Why not let the investigation take place and hold off on the judgement of the event (guilt or innocents of the hunter) before going off on this guy. The PH and the outfitter might be the more responsible party. As a hunter, it is our responsibility to check on any outfitter or agent. Depending on the local law, you may get sucked into a mess like this and serve time in foreign prison cell! I bet the anti's would love that result.
If he was played by the PH, the retraction will be brief, and hidden on page 12 of the newspaper! Well said Bigpizzaman. LaGriz
I prefer my osage and cedars and my spot in the woods. No game pools, public display, no PY score, no worries. I do my own thing, that way it effects nobody.
sawtooth, +1 as well...except for the osage and cedars! ;-)
Don't believe me - ask someone what was happening in the world 3 weeks ago. I bet they couldn't tell you.
The blessing and curse of today's overload of info - once it falls out of the media people forget.
orionsbrother's Link
Jim Leahy - Where'd he kill the bear? Zone D border currently runs along M through Clam Lake.
Don't know if bear zones have changed like deer units. Just trying to understand.
"You must be pretty pissed about this Walter Palmer dude. Scum"
My reply, and how I feel about this whole mess is that I'm pissed about the situation but not at Palmer.
It is a huge black eye for bowhunting, trophy hunting and hunting in general but it's entirely possible that Palmer honestly believed he was doing everything on the up and up. It's also possible that he actually did do everything on the up and up and the Zim government is trying to cover their butts now for screwing up but that's looking less likely as more information comes out from credible sources such as the Zim PH Assoc and Ivan Carter.
If he really did believe he was hunting legally when he released the arrow, I feel bad for him. If he knowingly took part in illegal activity, his selfishness will have hurt all of us.
SQUIRREL!
He said " how could he not have seen the collar" I said Having a collar may not necessarily mean he could not shoot it and secondly I would think a lions mane would cover the collar. I then explained that in Maine black bears are collared and ear tagged depending on sex and you can legally shoot them. He was not aware as I would assume many non hunters are not. I then shared that a buddy of mine legally shot a collared mountain lion in Colorado as well so collars are not always indications that an animal can't be legally killed. I try to educate the non hunter who is not against hunting.
He then went on to say the hunter had killed a bear and violated game laws in the past. My response " well it may compromise his credibility but it does not mean he knowingly killed the lion unlawfully.
Innocent until proven guilty, don't believe the media and hopefully I was able to help him view this situation with a more open mind before assuming that the hunter was a poacher and should be lynched!
I am always amazed that educated citizens continue to believe the media much of the time! It is disheartening and shocking to me! The truth will come out in time but society as a whole loves to rush to judgment!
In this case a power hungry, self centered, individual shot a lion illegally with a X bow and got caught. Then some of us somehow feel tarred with his stinking brush. Not me. No way do I accept any guilt anyone wants to tar bowhunters with this individuals indiscretion.
All that said I say that the murder of 60 million babies is at least a billion times worse than the killing of a lion. Neither are right in this case but lets get our priorities in place. Isis and abortion are the real problems and the wicked people that are supposed to be the leaders of this once mighty nation.
God bless, Steve
That is the most concise comment on then situation on this entire thread - hopefully the government in Zimbabwe will allow for due process.
Here's a post from a hunter. Re: Cecil's dead « Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 01:37:48 PM » Reply with quote This is a destructive and planned witch hunt buy anti-hunting groups. For two weeks the story was presented that he was shot by a Spaniard and everyone was petitioning the EU to ban lion imports there. Now they have moved the fight to the USA. I have hunted wild lions in Zimbabwe. You don't have to draw them out of parks to kill them. THEY JUST WALK OUT. Its what they do. Male lions will walk 10 to 12 miles a night patrolling their territories. This lions territory could have been as large as 200 sq. miles. You can't fence Hwange park. They have elephants. They don't respect fencing. The collar that everyone got up in arms about was specifically put on this lion to study both his movements and MORTALITY OUTSIDE OF THE PARK. It was part of an ongoing study funded by Oxford, that in order for the study to be complete MALE LIONS HAD TO BE SHOT! They collared over 60 lions for this study 24 have been shot. Why is this lion the one that is enraging all the idiots? Why do you think the PH returned the collar directly to the park officials after the cat was killed? Yes this lion was a known lion. We know he was 13 years old. Well into the age group which every biologist studying lions agrees SHOULD BE SHOT!
I here this emotional crap about now his cubs will get killed. Maybe. Maybe not. But guess what happens if this hunter had not shot the lion. Another lion comes in kills this lion and then he decides whether he is going to kill the cubs or not. Whether hunters kill this used up lion or anther lion, THE EFFECT AND RISK IS THE SAME. They know this lion killed another lion to take over a territory. His back leg was broken in the fight and had to be shot to death by Hwange rangers. Then this Lion gets to go kill all of his cubs.
There is one thing that does remain to be seen. There may have not been legal quota to kill the lion on the property in which it was shot. If this is the case and the outfitter is convicted then the lion was POACHED. Regardless of if he ever lived within a park with a color and made the most cuddly lion cubs ever to grace earth it is a poached lion and laws deal with poachers. THERE IS NO REASON TO OUTLAW ALL HUNTING WHEN AN EXISTING GAME LAW IS BROKEN AND ENFORCED.
Also this lion may have been killed on illegaly seized property. ZANU-PF started seizing land from farmers and ranchers in Zimbabwe. People were murdered and their homes burned on some of these properties. Millions of white people fled in a mass exodus with nothing but their clothes to keep from being killed. NOT ONE OF THESE SELF-RIGHTEOUS LION WORSHIPERS SAID A SINGLE THING ABOUT THAT! Nobody helped those people. THE ENTIRE WORLD TURNED A BLIND EYE TO IT. Now they are going to make a stand because of one lion. YOU WANT TO KNOW A THREATENED SPECIES TRY BEING WHITE IN ZIMBABWE. In 15 years 99% have been driven out or killed.
No need for one person that hunts to defend or condemn the actions of this hunter. Right or Wrong, regardless of the outcome. It isn't our role. By getting all worked up and having an opinion about the man, is exactly what the liberal left wants.
There are plenty of hunters here that judge their success by the size of the trophy they kill. Whether that be on their back 40 or a traveling trip. Yet, many of the same people act like this hunt for a big lion is wrong the way it was conducted.
I don't know if he has been convicted in the past. Truthfully, I really don't care. Nor should you. I don't know the facts of this situation. And, I truthfully don't care. It isn't my or anyone's role to decide or determine his guilt or lack of. Or cal him out on his past doings or if he had any role in wrong doing her. Bowhunting isn't going anywhere. This is just a frenzy created by idiots and when we play along, they win.
It's been said in everyone of these threads. Defenseless babies are being killed and sold. Our soldiers are at war. Our government is going broke. Our religious freedoms are being striped from us daily. Our politicians are trading the fundamentals of this great country for the fattening of their own pockets. And, this Cecil incident is what gets your hair up? Come on men, you are better than to play this stupid game.
God Bless
Medicinemann's Link
I'm disgusted with SCI suspending Palmer so quickly. That's not surprising to me. I dropped my SCI membership a few years ago for and now I know it was a smart decision.
Now the White House and the US Dept of Wildlife are involved. Politicians are so prone to swing in the direction of what they perceive as public opinion - anything for a vote.
The news media will beat on this until they have another hot, juicy story to cover and then it will fade away.
fortunately his schtick is wearing thin as well. talk about hitchin your wagon to a donkey
Bigpizzaman's Link
Was it wrong for the Hunter to Kill the lion. in many eyes - it was, in many eyes it wasn't wrong.
WHAT IS WRONG - is choosing another species over your own. 1,000's of people have wished death on this hunter, have wished him in prison, have wished hurt and pain on him and his family. They have chose a dead lion over a Human being.
This is wrong on so many instinct levels - this is a sign of the end. beware - if they extradite this hunter for his inhumane "crimes" - anyone that disagrees with the majority from that point on will be a target.
the inhumanity is being shown all over the media with the way people are choosing an animal (a dead one) over a fellow man.
In 6 months the furor over this lion will pass.
When Disney Productions, comes up with a new and different cartoon animal for the children/public to fawn over. What ever it may be, bird, animal, or reptile. This lion will be a distant memory.
People's memory and causes rarely last long.
Brotsky's Link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/11773653/Cecil-the-lions-killer-Walter-Palmer-wanted-to-stalk-an-elephant-next-but-couldnt-find-one-big-enough.html
Copy and paste into your browser. Strange that it doesn't like ot be embedded.
Hypocrites!!!!
I was convicted on a wildlife violation and I make no bones about it, calling me a "Poacher" I find offensive, we could discuss this anytime that's covenant for you.
the clock will never strike that time you can be sure.
When you book the trip, you have to book long in advance. Correct?
When you make your booking, do you trust your PH or do you have to read all the african(whatever country you are hunting) laws?
How do you as a hunter know if the PH crosses the property line?
If I ever went I would be in trouble. The couple of times I used hunting guides, I fully trusted them that we were at the right place and that he knew what he was doing.
I personally think responsibility lies with guide and land owner in this case.
I am in a profession where stories hit news both tv and papers, as a matter of fact I have been subject to part of some of them. I can say without a doubt facts are never told the way it happens as some I was there and saw it took part in it etc and then read or see news reports and go what the heck they left out some facts.
With that http://www.wdwmagic.com/events/international-food-and-wine-festival/news/13jul2015-four-future-world-marketplace-kiosks-to-open-at-this-years-food-and-wine-festival-along-with-new-premium-events.htm we are to to rush to judgement about things that most of us don't know about.
Just my two cents and I will wait for the facts .
On a lighter side I guess if anyone is interested in the Epcot food and wine festival I post a link ??
"As a hunter I detest what this guy did. When I hunt I only take head shots in order to insure a clean, quick kill"
"Bowhunting anything should not even be legal. The bow is a primitive weapon incapable of killing anything larger than small game at close range"
Tim id be worried speaking too loud on this walt guys defense them antis are just looking to hang us all .
The question is not how did Walt become a member (it's their club and their rules) it's why are these clubs ducking and running???? They are supposed to be for our rights! Do you EVER see the NAACP doing that?? Come on man this is way bigger than a membership issue! This is our freedom to hunt! If they (the left) wish to personal attack me, bring it but they better be prepared, BECAUSE I AM!
If that turns out to be the case, then we didn't throw him under the bus, he jumped under it himself and we get left to try and clean up the mess.
Let's look at those one by one.
1. WHO. For a couple of weeks, the media was reporting that the hunter was from Spain. Just this week, they figured out it was Dr. Palmer.
2. What. More appropriately - what happened? The only thing that is clear is that this lion, that someone named, was killed. I've read that it was shot with a compound bow, a crossbow and a rifle. The PH, when interviewed, said that Dr. Palmer shot it with a compound bow (both times). The picture of Dr. Palmer, the PH and the lion has a compound in it. From our experts here, we've learned that lion hunting over bait is legal in Zimbabwe. So is hunting at night. I've read where they "enticed" this lion out of the park by dragging a bait through the park and then to the adjacent farm where it was killed. Sorry, I don't believe that. It sounds like there were plenty of lions there, so why go into the park? I've also read that they destroyed the collar, but the PH said he put it in a tree and then reported it to the Park officials. That doesn't sound like destruction. One thing does seem clear is that it was not legal to shoot a lion on that property. Did the hunter know that? I don't know. If he did, that's a problem.
3. Where. As near as I can tell, the only thing the media has gotten correct, from the beginning, is where the incident happened. It happened at a farm adjacent to a Park where the lion was often viewed by tourists.
4. When. When is even in question. We've all read that the lion was wounded, pursued for 40 hours and finished off. But the PH said they shot it initially at 10:00 p.m. and finished off the next morning. Hardly 40 hours.
5. Why. Why is all over the place. I've read all kinds over things like greed, dominion over lesser species, micro-penile syndrome, American arrogance, etc., etc., etc. I doubt the media will ever figure the "why" out.
As someone who has received death threats as a result of crappy reporting, I'm withholding judgment after some due process has occurred. I'm even withholding judgment over the "bear incident" because it is not clear to me exactly what he plead to. I've read all kinds of things including that he plead to a felony. I find that hard to believe. I suspect more crappy reporting.
You guys who seem to believe everything you read and form your opinion about a guy you will never know are a big part of the problem. Please stop being so reactionary and divisive.
It may turn out that Dr. Palmer did commit a wildlife crime. For now, I'm waiting to hear the truth of what happened. Not Jimmy Kimmel's version, or Bill O'Reilly's, or Barack Obama's. The "truth" and those guys are rarely in the same zip code.
True but if Walt is found Guilty we need to mount a HUGE bask-lash, and if he's guilty we still need to mount a defense of hunting rights! I am seeing more positive and rejection of the initial hysteria on hunting via social media.
Tim this will only affect a very few hunters in the big picture ! The avg hunters Tim sees this having no ill effects on there NA whitetail hunting . I myself will continue to hunt and try and educate the gen public about hunting .. The antis one cannot talk sense with . Many Americans are on the fence and these are the people we need to educate !
wow Im ashamed u would want to support this guy if found guilty of wildlife violations that is just nuts !!!
PicDoc damage is done only for the import of Lions into the USA ! But this was in the works in the past year this will only push it thru faster ..
Pig Doc do what you feel works for you, I'll do the same. If you think attempting to discredit me helps your cause, which seems to be anti-hunting or at least ashamed of it, go ahead, sit behind that keyboard and type away!
Tim if u are so strong on this support i suggest u throw yourself into the mix start a FB page and Offer a discount for people that come into your place of Biz that sign a letter of support for walt palmer Tim any publicity is good for a biz !!!!
I will not defend him making a false statement. With that said, I do not believe he should lose everything because of it.
You guys calling for his head - prematurely, look who you are allying yourselves with. How long until your new allies turn on you??
Please go and re-read all of my posts, let me know where I defended Walt Palmers previous conviction? In fact I wasn't even defending Walt but due process instead? For that I get personally attacked/ Whatever I'm a bigboy. I received a very interesting email from a very credible source, I'll post and let you decide:
Many of you have read or heard the news of the collared lion that has been shot here in Africa. Greg and I are in Zimbabwe, hunting with clients, at the camp of the very man that is being accused of "slaughtering a protected lion".
I would just like to clarify a few facts. Firstly, yes, the lion was collared but that does not mean protected the hunting concession we are on borders the park-- no fences, no gates, no wires. These animals are free to roam and cross into the areas surrounding the park at will. It is a given that when any animal is out of the designated boundaries of the park and in a hunting concession, it is fair game. Collared animals are shot by hunters once in a while and the law states that nothing has been done illegally, just that the collar is to be returned to the National Parks office.
Secondly, this lion was not lured out of the park by guts being dragged or calls being made. There was an elephant carcass, that died of natural causes, 2 1/2 km out of the parks boundary. The Professional Hunter (PH) and his hunter had seen a lion on the carcass so set up a blind to hunt that evening. The collared lion was the one that came in. No one realized the animal was collared until after it was harvested. The collar was returned to Parks, as is the procedure. It is unfortunate that this lion is a frequently photographed one in the parks as I believe that is why it has made national news. That, and the fact that it has a name..... Cecil.
Theo Bronkhorst has been threatened and dragged over the coals on this one. His family is being harassed and the Facebook comments have been horrendous. Our own fb page has had a few. One in particular. "let me guess...this fed a village".
Here's where I'd like to explain something. Feeding the village is a phrase that is always taken in the literal sense. Yes, the meat of any animal is shared with the people but it's more than that. Here's how it works.
Every hunting concession has a native game scout appointed. This scout must accompany the PH and his hunters to be sure that nothing is shot that is not on quota.....quota meaning that only so many of one species can be taken during the year. This is recorded very officially in a ledger. Every animal has a trophy fee. This is divided up to the outfitter, the village and the government. The village gets their share of the meat. Now this is where Theo makes a difference. With the money, he has helped the people dig wells, pipe water and supplied tanks to their houses so they don't have to walk long distances to carry it. They have larger gardens now because of it, not to mention running water. He has built schools. He's helped put in solar panels so they have power. I have seen satellite dishes on some homes so I know they have tv. It is all this that is included in the phrase ' feed the village'.
I believe so many people do not understand hunting. They only see killing. Without hunting there is no conservation. Theo and his family are conservationists. They are not poachers. Everything done in the taking of this lion was done with professionalism. The hunter was legally licensed, the outfitter/PH, Theo, was licensed to legally hunt in that area. The lion had a GPS collar and if anyone is to blame, it should be the authorities who's job was to track him.
It is disgusting to me how there is so much to-do about this one lion but nothing is said about the man who was killed just 2 nights ago by an elephant in the village of the scout who rides in the truck with us everyday. A human life was taken and it is not mentioned. We should be more concerned about Masugo and his family than Cecil. It is unfair that no one feels sorry for Masugo....nor for the hunter and PH that have been falsely accused of a crime they did not commit.
Please share this with as many people as you can so the real story also gets revealed. It surprises us that organizations like Dallas Club and Safari Club International (SCI), who's slogan is 'first for hunters', have not become involved to investigate and stand behind a fellow hunter. Let us all, as hunters, stand together.
~Debby & the Ndn
Sent from my iPhone
Nice post BigP, I couldn't agree more.
KJC's Link
TINK NATHAN retired African PH
Last time I checked we are still in America where you're supposed to be innocent UNTIL proven guilty? You have my "buddy" Walt already tried and convicted? You do so because of an ever-changing story and a prior conviction? Why don't we let the Invastgation take place first, as much as I ashamed to call you a fellow Bowhunter I would at least give you the benefit of doubt!
Expert says Jericho's collar sending out normal movements
A wildlife expert from South Africa claims Jericho is alive and well.
Drew Abrahamson wrote on Facebook: "Jericho's collar is sending out normal collar movement up untill 20 mins ago!
He also posted this image apparently showing the lion's movements.
Sawtooth i wouldnt be shocked if the antis killed Jericho to prove there point .
People thought i was nuts last year when i told them i thought anti groups are buying tags to stop us hunters
I've met Walt I think 3 times talked with him at shows, it's not a "friendship" that causes me to stand up for what's right, it's the right thing to do!
Tim, what is so freakin' hard for people to understand about this and how can anyone disagree?!
Have these 174 posts changed your feelings since you started this thread? Good for you for keeping the fight going!
Almost walked away a couple times and ran into a brick wall!! PM's helped! Lol thanks
That's why you can't believe a single thing being reported by any news source I've seen yet. Every one has been filled with twisted emotion and downright misinformation if not outright lies. They are inundated with liberals, anti-hunters and just plain evil people with an agenda trying to exploit and dramatize a story. They can dramatize a cat stuck in a tree as well as place the blame for it on whoever is not in favor this week. To them there is no line between news story and editorial.
They are bat-chit crazy and should be treated as such. Ought to see a liberal/anti when you look em in the eye and ask them if they are crazy.... their first thoughts are "how does he know my therapist???"
Don't give me some tripe about "it doesn't matter if he's innocent or not". Yes it does. Shame on anyone if they think it doesn't. It's everything.
We shall see when the facts are laid out. But right now the stuff going on here is the very definition of a Kangaroo Court. being convicted with absolutely no facts, no evidence, taking the word of a group of people with a seriously twisted agenda that haven't even been 50% right yet.
Everytime you walk into the woods and shoot an animal, could put you into this same situation. Imagine yourself shooting a deer on your farm in Iowa next year and some clown named it Peter and turns you into the news media....just imagine that for a second. the potential is there for any of us. Crucifying the hunter here before credible facts are known is not the answer.
Our take on this whole debacle, our views on how this scenario most likely played out...
1. Palmer books...is sold a lion hunt in Zimbabwe through bushman safaris / Bronkhorts
2. P/hunter / operator have an agreement with said land occupier on Antoinette for the hunting rights to the property, which is roughly 4500acres in extent, it is an old railway farm... Several other properties ajoin and general location falls in the gwaai conservancy area. It is very close to the hwange park boundary , as is several of the other properties and forestry commission areas.
3.the operator has other areas in the matabeleland north area, one of which has a lion on quota for 2015. However the only property where you will get a lion on bait fairly easily is Antoinette as it is right on the park boundary. Most of these areas only the rail track between Bulawayo and Vic Falls which demarcates the boundary between said areas and hwange national park.
4. Operator thinks, let's bait hunt on Antoinette , we shoot the lion if we get a good male on bait, we then skin the animal, change camps, head back to the other area that does have a lion on quota. People will not know we shot the lion elsewhere...or something along these lines..
5. Palmer arrives for his hunt, if the lion was the main species sought, obviously the hunters start on Antoinette property.. Bait is shot, drag the park boundary , maybe even a caller with lions roaring was used, we don't know, but highly likely - they are hunting on PRIVATE land, so no need to hunt with a parks ranger.
6. Hunting party gets a lion to come onto the property, Palmer can't believe his luck, MGM lion. They shoot at it....and wound the lion. Being so close to the park, the lion heads back into the park.
7. P/hunter and operator, landowner now have egg on their faces, you can't tell the client, sorry chap your lion has gone bad luck... They hv palmers $50k. To show nothing is really amiss... Hunting party/p hunter make a report to main camp, national parks main head quarters for that section of hwange park, "we hv wounded a lion, and it has left our property and has crossed into the park". They are assigned a ranger to accompany them back to where lion crossed back into the park,to follow up the wounded cat. (By law in Zimbabwe reporting of wounded dangerous game needs to be made if possible within 24 hrs. To nearest appropriate authority, in this case national parks.cat is followed up and killed.
8. In the meantime hunter/landowner go into overdrive... What's our best option here, how do we sort this problem... Ok, let's get permission for quota transfer between our properties. This is either denied, or the parks officers at main camp are so on the ball, they check up on the land owners quota for 2015 - bingo, they are busted.... How many days it takes for this to play out is debatable , given that lion was followed up, killed. Trophy is then skinned out, head removed, so you can boil to get the skull.. And the trophy had already be moved from the property.
9. At this point it's pretty plausible Palmer doesn't know any better. He's thinking what a monster lion I just got. Hunts on another of the operators properties and then heads home to the states.thinking I hv just had the best safari etc...
10. Quota transfer doesn't get approved, and the researchers by now see their collard subject not moved much in the past few days.. Other lions killed along the hwange park boundary this year, WITH a proper quota allocation and permit etc, the p/hunter notified the research guys, return the collar etc..its forgotten about a few weeks after... That lion is now a statistic in the data base, location killed,date killed etc lion doesn't have a name, no photo lodge close by who know the lions every move, no controversy . End of the story.
11.in the meantime, research guys or local lodge guides get to hear "Cecil" hunted and killed.... "Did you know property had no quota".... These guys tried to pull a move with "quota transfer"....."collar apparently tried to be destroy".. It gets spread around on social media, and before you know it, it's gone viral.... WORLDWIDE.
12. It's now not something that a fist full of us$ into corruptible officials hands that can make the problem go away... It builds momentum by the hour, and Officials begin to investigate, and well the rest is history as we all know
So from our side, I would say mr Palmer has VERY little chance of being prosecuted in Zimbabwe. At the end of the day, the professional hunter who is guiding the client and whose name appears on the TR2 hunt authority form, is in charge of the hunt. The buck stops with him!! So if Palmer did shoot the lion on instruction from the professional hunter. It would be p/h's word against clients word if Palmer eventually or EVER for that matter was to appear before a Zimbabwe court of law.
My money would be on the hunter & landowner being prosecuted , and not the client. We continue to follow the proceedings.
Sometimes the court of public opinion is worse than the court of law. O. J. was found innocent In a criminal court of law but everybody still knows he did it.
The bad thing is that hunters will suffer regardless.
-Cheryl
WE NEED FACTS to consider the fate of Dr. Palmer... however, the fate of hunting, bowhunting in particular, has taken a BIG BLOW!!!
ALL HUNTERS NEED TO USE THIS "EPISODE" OF BAD BEHAVIOR FROM "SOMEONE" IN THE HUNTING COMMUNITY AS A WAKE UP CALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We need to stand together!!!
Lou, why not take your problems up with P&Y personally?
Tim, you 'da man. God Bless fellas.
I don't know if Palmer is guilty or innocent of anything or not but what I do know is that this is one of the worst black eyes to hunting and bow hunting in particular in recent history.
Even if he is found 100% innocent the stain is going to last a very long time. I don't know the man if fact I had never heard of him before all of this but I hope he is innocent but my fear is that won't make much of a difference in the long run.
I have had a couple drinks, so take that into context, How good looking was the secretary?
The facts are far from out on this situation. We have only heard what those idiots wanted us to hear. Yet, hunters and organizations are already reacting to the nonsense by condemning the man before we truly know the truth. Some are basing it on this Cecil situation, his past history with the bear, his personal civil matters with some women, and acting like this guy is the devil's spawn or a bad guy to call a fellow hunter.'
Chew on this for a while. I'm not defending the guy. I'm just pointing out the obvious.
Sexual discrimination in the work place isn't a fair playing field. Especially when the man is in charge.
Nobody knows what happened in the bear hunting case. Only what he agreed to plead to. Take it personally from a guy that has set in a court room on trumped up bear hunting charges, sometimes you take what you can get as you stand to lose so much more. I didn't plea and justice prevailed. But, it could have easily went the other way.
And, as the email pizza man showed, there is another side of the story that isn't emotionally driven and therefore, more likely to be correct or, at least defensive of what appears to very likely be a legal hunt.
Keep your opinions of this man to yourself. You guys are treating this hunter as if you are above him. Just remember this before you respond. There are plenty of us that have broken some minuscule law, willing or unwillingly while hunting. There are plenty of us that have had affairs, flirted with, or attempted to do both, with women we have worked with. How do you feel now about the details you simply don't know concerning this fella and, the situations you are using to pass judgement on him?
Hunting will prevail. Liberalism never does use sound judgement or facts. The ruling of stopping bowhunting will be over turned: Once the facts are out, regardless of what they are. People don't need to be swayed. They need the truth about hunting. The facts will win it in the long run as long as we hunters don't crucify ourselves before then. So, act accordingly and never apologize for any type of legal hunting regardless of how this plays out. God Bless
Who benefits, and what changes if we get word today that the lion was legally killed on proper land with proper documentation, it was not lured off the preserve, it died within 5 minutes of the shot, and all the other allegations were false. In fact the only thing that is the same in both that new reality and the original story of lies was that the lion is dead.
it only matters to a few people (Palmer and the guys he contracted with). He now, from a legla perspective be "safe". He is still a pariah and his business and life are otherwise trashed, but he is safe legally.
Other than that it matters not to anyone else. The damage is done, the martyr-cat has served it's purpose, hunting has been vilified, etc.
No anti-hunter has ever said i support legal hunting it is the illegal stuff that i vehemently oppose.
Damage done.
Tim u your self have helped fuel this topic with a tread like ashamed ! TIM u talk support support yet fail to tell us who we should support . why not come up with ideas on who we can support ,,yea saying i support this on BS is doing jack chit .
WE SHOULD SUPPORT EACH OTHER!!!!
If anyone is hunting the antis priority animals like lion, elephant, leopard etc. especially if you're against a park boundary you owe it to yourself and all hunters to make sure you have all the legal licenses and paperwork as well as to assure you're on the right property.
I've read articles that they turned the color into the park officials and I've read articles where they tried to destroy the color. IDK which is true, but if they indeed tried to destroy the collar that should have been at least his first clue that something isn't on the up and up.
Tim the facts are out why would SCI allow Walt Palmer into the club with his 2008 conviction, Tim whats your opinion should hunters with wildlife convictions be allowed in a record keeping keeping club ?
Did u stop to think ,maybe that's why they pulled him . Tim facts are facts i dont support a man that broke the law into a record keeping club ,it gives a black eye to the club as is shown in this case .
Tim come up with some real SUPPORT for the mass of hunters and not just your friend Walt Palmer this fiasco is a lot larger then WALTS troubles .
This thread is about lions but the same happens at all levels...Rompala buck, sheep in Montana, elk slaughter near Helena, Montana.... it is everywhere and at all levels. Read about horn porn right here on Bowsite.
You know as well as I do that the quest for record book superiority leads into game farms, killing subdivision named deer, night shooting, technology at all levels, hunting near protected game areas such as Yellowstone...anything for a trophy. I realize these types of hunters may be in the minority but I believe their ranks are expanding and I am not going to stick up for them...to heck with sticking together, I am not going to do it.
I enjoy my longbow and time alone in the woods. I keep my hunting adventures out of sight and out of mind, have been for 46 years of bowhunting. And yes, I have hunted Africa, Alaska and many other places. I suggest you too learn that hunting is not a contest or accomplishment, it is a personal adventure.
This is not at all about how Walt chose to hunt, it is about trends in the industry. The Anti's know that!!!! All the hunting community sees is a hunter who deserves his day in court, good grief, how stupid can we be?. Nope, I am not sticking with animal exploitation for personal gain.
Tim Walt has about a million other problems he is faced with, matters way more important then SCI issues . What has happened to Walt Palmer is unfair in the way he and his family have been attacked , its not fair to his workers who depend on his place to open . The masses have formed a witch hunt for the death of a lion why and how its gotten to this point shows the power of the Antis !!
Hunting is on trial, and the verdict will not end with a gavel verdict for Walt.
I'm done on this thread, thanks everyone who gets it, bless the ones that don't!
Tim this tread is about Walt u have not brought one good idea how we could support legal hunting
This is similar to those who automatically believe police shooting victims are completely innocent. When you repeatedly are in the areas of crime at 3 am, with convictions a mile long, you resist arrest, you sell drugs, sooner or later things may go bad. You are putting yourself in a situation that spawns decisions and inherent risk. Police do not shoot nice people sitting in their lawns. They fight crime in the worst of all places with their lives on the line. Sooner or later things happen and they may be bad. These victims are not good citizens, they do not however always deserve to be killed. The circumstances cause error....good people avoid the circumstances, avoid the situation. I believe poachers and Walt have some sense of ownership, no matter what the courts say.
By the way, thank you to all the police officers, DNR wardens and military personnel who sacrifice for us every day.
Think about all the hunters that have elephant, lion, and leopard hunts booked around Hwange this year and next, what are they going to do? If this bow hunting ban/suspension is countrywide how is it going to affect those that have hunts booked?
If I had a dangerous game safari booked for this month bordering Hwange that I had been saving several years for I don't think I would be too happy right now.
People are getting fed up with hearing about this stupid lion and the way these dumb people went bonkers over his death. My goodness, even AOL has stories from high ranking Zimbabwe officials and normal citizens that didn't even know of the "famous" Cecil. By playing along and condemning this hunter without first knowing the whole truth, you are the Anti's biggest allies.
There is no need to further point out your deficiencies in the way you choose to approach this. You are too blinded to even demonstrate simple reading comprehension. Good day and God Bless
If you bother to go back and read my posts in each thread I have not condemned the hunter, due to the simple fact that I don't know.
I have just pointed out that due to the situation ( whether he is innocent or not) it will affect hunters.
Now, it may not have much impact on hunting whitetails in WV but it will have an impact on hunting in Zimbabwe. In fact for the hunters that are scheduled to hunt right now I can assure you it is having a major impact.
"Well, that's great. This is why we have to be on our best behavior and guard all the time. The antis are salivating waiting for situations like this."
"We as hunters whether we are hunting with an outfitter, PH, landowner, or DYI have a responsibility to know where we are and to make sure we have correct licenses and tags for that area. After all, we are the ones hunting and pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow.
If you are leopard hunting and a lion walks in then a decision has to be made. It sounds like the decision turned out not to be the right one." (this one you even posted a link to a newspaper in the UK t back your claims)
"Yes, if you are the hunter it is your responsibility to know the laws and regulations. Does it happen every time? No it doesn't and the majority of times it works out fine. But as the old saying goes, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Hunters are busted every year in different states or countries for game offenses, and a lot of those are on guided hunts. After all, we are the ones that are pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow.
Do you think if Dr. Palmer had it to do over again he would have paid a little more attention to where he was at and that he had proper permits to hunt lion there. I think he would.
And yes, I do research any professional I go to whether they are a Physician, Dentist, Attorney, etc."
I didn't post them all. Only a few BEFORE you started reading, than typing that we hunters need to await the facts before condemning this guy. Essentially, changing your tone. And to think, one that has spent so much time being anal and paying attention to the details missed a very important one right off the bat by not doing as he now is suggesting he has done all along. It sure looks like someone had their head in the sand. But, it wasn't or hasn't been me.
I'm not being anymore of a wise guy than you were and have been. I'm just not going to play the game the way the anti's want us to.
Pig Doc, I'm not real sure where you even stand on this after that comment. God Bless
These quotes "taken in context" in the threads I posted them in were to explain that each and everyone of us has a responsibility to assure that what, where, and how we hunt is in a legal manner. Situations like this give a black eye to all of us and will affect our future hunting opportunities.
Never once have I said Dr. Palmer did anything illegal. The fact is I don't know and I don't presume to know.
Now, if you want to debate this then I'm all in, but if you just want to argue like you usually do then I'm done. However, I am impressed with your obsession in my posts to go back thru them all. Good job!
I don't doubt your intent is to protect hunting. I never have. So is mine. As far as debating the specifics of this Cecil topic, I have zero inclination as none of us know the details. That's my whole point in this thread. The details aren't even known and, the worst enemy the anti's have is the way they are acting. We don't need hunters doing the same at this point.
I'm not arguing. Nor have I been. I'm disagreeing. I admit a little wise guy attitude in the last post but, anyone who has read this whole thread realizes that started on your end. So, I gave it back while making my point. God Bless
The most logical scenario is the Dr paid over $50,000 for a lion hunt. Logic also would support he likely went with these guys after talking to several folks who had hunted with them and had their recommendation. Who books a hunt for that kind of money with no referrals in a third world country with the plan to poach a lion? Makes no sense. And I'd bet is not the case. We shall see I guess.
So logically that leaves much of the talk about the hunter being "selfish" and a number of other insults to him, basically against hunting lions, or elephants or some other anti-hunter darling de jour. Or about him having the means to do so... plenty of that to go around too it seems. Maybe even that it was a bowhunt?
Why not just come right out with it? Getting old beating around the bush as to the hunters true "intentions" as they have a pretty weak logical basis.
My feeling is the hunt itself is their issue.
Please explain to me why exactly was this hunter "selfish" for booking a free range lion bow hunt?
I can feel that chill in the air get a little cooler every morning. Corn stalks are starting to get that golden color at the base of their stalks. It will soon be October, and I'll be in a tree looking to fill my freezer for the coming year. Silence, solitude, and not a whisper about a dead lion will be remembered at that point.
I can see the clearing just ahead...
If the "Professional Hunter" (PH) or his guides dragged a carcass into and out of the reserve then onto a ranch/concession where there wasn't a permit for a lion harvest and then killed a lion using these methods. I most certainly question the legality and the PH's ethics.
If the doctor was aware of this tactic then I will also question the doctors ethic's or lack there of.
More importantly it does not sound like the first rodeo for the PH. Therefore I would place the responsibility of his licensing on the Zimbabwe, Government's appropriate licensing agency.
Once people step back and look at this lets hope common sense will prevail.
The Ph's, methods and ethics (along with the rancher if he was aware of this hunt) are to blame. All of the legality as well as the actions of his hunting party regarding this hunt is on the PH.
The failure to monitor the PH's, licensing and oversight of PH's activities are the responsibilities of the Zimbabwe's, government.
The Zimbabwe, demand for the doctors extradition is ludicrous. This isn't a capital crime !
The Government and the Citizen's of Zimbabwe, need to look within !!!
Im only reporting the facts if u guys are upset then take it up with the club.
But allowing members with wildlife violation inside a club gives a bad image! So much for conservation !!!!!!
Or you can just sweep it under the rug and think all is grand .
Allowing members with wildlife violations into a club based on ethics and fair chase is Hypocritical !!! Mad trapper trust me PY will be on the antis radar.
Maybe Pat could create a separate forum for Lions and Sheep to eliminate this bickering. Bigpizzaman has the character of a Bigman. He's belongs in the lion forum.
I guess I wouldn't make a good ambassador for hunting either. I got a ticket 20 years ago for a loaded rifle in my vehicle. I was probably road hunting and poaching deer on posted property right? OH yea, and it was a rifle. Shame on me, huh?
Divided and conquered.
Ollie if u can read im not against PY im against known poachers inside the club it sends a ass backwards message .
Ollie do u poach ? so how can u compare a 57mph ticket to a guy knowing killing a bear in a wrong unit then trying to cover it up Like i said u guys crack me up ..
Why would i list my animals with guys that have poaching convictions WHY OLLIE they dont have ethics broken fair chase rules how backwards is this .
Ollie there was a member WHO NEVER BROKE A GAME LAW A member turned him in cause of a personal issue in the mans life ! PY pulled him from the club He was a Lifelong member and never convicted of any crime.
Seriously? Where did bad actors come into this? Sheep condone behavior?
This situation is a sever attack on any hunter regardless what you think is in reason.
There's going to come a day when its for the rich only and no free range available. Thanks to situations like this out of control.
What does a charge or conviction of "sexual harassment" have to do with membership requirements in P & Y?
Is a "sexual harassment" conviction considered a misdemeanor or felony?
Ollie i asked the club a while back way before this incident . I asked if members are allowed to have wildlife convictions ,, I was told they are old violations and minor :< this isnt about walt this is about Ethics which is preached by the club !
Buff how long have u been a member ? but buddy the club can look at a member for other bad judgement calls on that person in question. One member years ago was under there ethics police for a personal matter it had nada to do with wildlife crimes go figure
Buff would you want your kids /wife working in a place were a man has a sexual harassment charge!! just asking Buff
PS the PY is filled with many of its members that follow the ethics and all fair chase rules to the letter . But sad to say a few will always spoil it for the good ones . And for the record if i was convicted in my 15 years in the club of a wildlife crime i would have submitted a letter to the club informing them its best i withdraw the club due to my violation.
Best of luck to all Louis
This is a question straight from the P & Y application:
"Have you ever been convicted of a criminal violation? Yes No"
Sexual harassment itself is not a crime, therefore it is not a criminal violation. Some sexual harassment conduct is criminal such as rape, assault & battery, false impersonation, bullying( in some cases), stalking & pornography.
Sexual harassment is defined as unwanted, unwelcomed sexual advancements, request for sexual favors, and other verbal (personal or general) or physical harassment of sexual nature.
I was a personnel manager for over 25 years. I speak from experience with having to deal with the subject and teaching training on the subject. I have dealt with the issue from a basic charge to civil lawsuit level. I have worked with many people (men and women)who been involved in sexual harassment matters and charges. It is always good to know circumstances of situation before stereotyping an individual.
For the record, how much and what kind of first hand experience do you have dealing with sexual harassment?
Sexual harassment has nothing to do with hunting ethics.
I have been a member of P&Y for 20+ years for the record. How long have you been a member?
I stand with Walter to the end. in the end if he is found guilty he will take his licks and and suffer the consequences, but how about we wait till the facts come out? I see so many posting on facebook and other places online like they were there with Walter. We only know what we have been told and if we learned anything in the past year we should know the media only report what they want you to hear... think ferguson...
Thanks for the great post Tim
Michael obrien
