Carbon Express Arrows
Steep shots & Angle Compensation
Wild Sheep
Contributors to this thread:
smarba 24-Aug-15
R. Hale 24-Aug-15
Bou'bound 24-Aug-15
Zackman 24-Aug-15
Tracker12 24-Aug-15
TREESTANDWOLF 24-Aug-15
TD 24-Aug-15
Mark Watkins 24-Aug-15
Mad Trapper 25-Aug-15
DonVathome 25-Aug-15
smarba 25-Aug-15
Wood 26-Aug-15
jtelarkin08 26-Aug-15
Ermine 27-Aug-15
jtelarkin08 27-Aug-15
Ermine 27-Aug-15
Medicinemann 27-Aug-15
TD 27-Aug-15
BULELK1 27-Aug-15
Mad Trapper 27-Aug-15
kota-man 27-Aug-15
Medicinemann 27-Aug-15
Mark Watkins 27-Aug-15
Waterfowler 28-Aug-15
Tilzbow 28-Aug-15
Ermine 28-Aug-15
DonVathome 30-Aug-15
Mark Watkins 30-Aug-15
Mark Watkins 30-Aug-15
Shug 30-Aug-15
Bou'bound 30-Aug-15
Mark Watkins 30-Aug-15
Medicinemann 31-Aug-15
From: smarba
24-Aug-15
I recently read an article wherein a sheep hunter peers over a cliff and takes a reading on sheep. 115-yards! He says no way he can make the shot. Then figures out his rangefinder was not in angle compensation mode, which after being changed read 50. He takes the shot and kills the sheep.

It is worth pointing out that even though an angle-compensating rangefinder reads 50 (which corresponds to the proper pin to aim with) it's still a 115-yard shot!

I recall reading Randy Ulmer explain that (in this scenario) you'd aim with the 50 pin, but your ACCURACY will only be that of your 115-yard shot.

Thoughts? Comments?

From: R. Hale
24-Aug-15
Randy was correct.

From: Bou'bound
24-Aug-15
as the old beer commercial used to say so eloquently

...........BRILLIANT !!!!!

good reminder

From: Zackman
24-Aug-15
I think that Bowhunter spent a lot of time practing that scenario and understood what he was getting into. He also killed a giant ram with that shot!!!

From: Tracker12
24-Aug-15
Hard to argue success.

24-Aug-15
The reality is we all know what it takes to make that shot..... Kudos!

From: TD
24-Aug-15
I wonder how much of archery really is mental?

Say they are both in reality 115 yard shots. A guy thinks "115 yards! no way!".

He see 50 yards, done that a bunch... and his mind calmly settles in to make the shot. And makes it.

Well, that and he likely didn't have a 115 yard pin.... maybe would have had to gap between the 110 and the 120.... =D

From: Mark Watkins
24-Aug-15
Smarba,

That sheep hunter is me. To clarify......What I said (upon ranging the distance) was "no way!" As in no way it was 115 angle adjusted yards. We then ranged the ram with my guides older Leica Geovids (no ARC) and sure enough it read within 1 yard.

My "super guide" Tee Jensen has many skills superior to mine including technology and he quickly changed the setting after I floundered with it for about 30 seconds.

The Angle adjusted shot was 56 yards and yes the size of the ram in my sight housing was that of a critter at 115.

I shoot regularly at my home based range out to 120 yards at a deer target. I'm also fortunate to have a friend that owns a ski hill that allows me to practice some very steep downhill (and uphill) angles.

Mark

From: Mad Trapper
25-Aug-15
Practice, practice, practice and then know your limitations. Can't argue with success!!!!!!!!

From: DonVathome
25-Aug-15
Good point Carl, I am found myself falsely lulled into, its only 50 yards, when it is really, 70.

I watched some ibex that were over 110 yards but I would have used my 20 yard pin. Shot all my arrows missed very time. Just kidding!

Still gotta get one of those, might try archery now that odds are 25 times worse:)

Take care,

Don

From: smarba
25-Aug-15
Mark:

Thanks for chiming in; although I don't know you, I recognized your name in the article - just didn't want to directly mention you by name.

To be clear I was NOT bashing you, and you proved capable by killing the sheep - congrats!

Just wanted to remind folks that the arrow is still flying through the air for the true angled distance.

Carl

From: Wood
26-Aug-15
With my rangefinder I wouldn't know the line of sight distance, as it only reads the compensated distance, along with the angle. Hell of a shot, no doubt.

From: jtelarkin08
26-Aug-15
Was listening to Aron Snyder talk about going on Phil Mendoza sheep hunt on the gritty bowmen podcast today. After a certain distance and angle the rangefinders are junk.. Aron talked about a chart that Tim Gillingham has put together proving it is wrong..

I actually talked to Tim about it a few months back when we were visiting about arrows.

From: Ermine
27-Aug-15
What did Tim have to say about it?

From: jtelarkin08
27-Aug-15
Way more than i could ever regurgitate LOL

Long story short this is the way i understand it.There is a formula for angle and distance to get the correct distance that Tim has come up with??.. The rangefinders use a different formula and after a certain angle and distance the way the rangefinders calculate the shot it ends up wrong..

From: Ermine
27-Aug-15
That's interesting. Id like to know the formula

From: Medicinemann
27-Aug-15
I always used distance X .9 for shots on a 30 degree angle. Distance X .7 for shots on a 45 degree angle. Distance X .5 for shots on a 60 degree angle.....so an animal at 115 yards, on a 60 degree slope, would require you aiming as if he was 57.5 yards away.....but it is still a 115 yard shot.

At that distance, a .029 pin or maybe even a .019 pin will cover most or all of the target or animal.....sure hope the sight uses a .010 pin.

From: TD
27-Aug-15
geez Jake.... one of the reasons I hunt is to get away from doing math.....

I would postulate..... heheheheh... in this case, this rangefinder angle compensation was, um, dead.... on. Regardless of any other theory. Heck of a shot BTW...

Many of the rangefinders have limits to the angles they will deal with if I recall. Have to check out the specs on the one you use i guess.... but I do remember many of them have their design limits. The actual sensors, etc.

I'm not sure if it would be the formula that may be off, that should be fairly simple physics equation to an engineer that programs them, (and that wouldn't be just one engineer, I'd think each company had their own engineers?).... as much as the physical limits of the rangefinder? (question mark... see the question mark...)

From: BULELK1
27-Aug-15
That is a very interesting breakdown Jake.

Interesting to consider for sure.

Good luck, Robb

From: Mad Trapper
27-Aug-15
You should see Jake when he is calculating. He can take his boots off faster than anybody. On a goat hunt, he ran out of toes, so he asked his guide to take off his boots. The goat just stood there and watched as Jake calculated the correct yardage to plus or minus .05 yards. I still don't know how he holds his pin for a half of yard....

From: kota-man
27-Aug-15
Tom...To properly calculate a half yard, I heard Jake just uses a half a pin.

From: Medicinemann
27-Aug-15
I prefer to count my digits when estimating yards on Mountain Goats, so I can get it right the first time....Tom just counts the number of arrows already sticking out of his goat, and multiplies by five....

From: Mark Watkins
27-Aug-15
Tom, Just so my simple mind can understand this scenario....Jake doesn't want to use and angle adjusted rangefinder so he can add a degree of mental challenge to his pre shot routine?

Or is it that he wants to be "Ishi like" and do the final stalk barefoot?:)

Mark

From: Waterfowler
28-Aug-15
This thread makes my head hurt. Seems over thought a bit, point, click, shoot.

From: Tilzbow
28-Aug-15
I'm pretty sure that's what Mark did on the 115 yard shot! He's a stone cold killer I don't want to mess with.

From: Ermine
28-Aug-15
Maybe it's only certain rangefinders that aren't true?

From: DonVathome
30-Aug-15
No one remembers a 3 4 5 triangle?

From: Mark Watkins
30-Aug-15
A good thing to remember for mountain hunts (the angles and the shot distances on most whitetail scenarios are just not severe enough materially matter) as a back up plan for a rangefinder that "goes on the fritz" and does not read angle adjusted distances properly is this.......in most of today's smart phones you can use COSIGN to convert an angle to a percentage.

Hopefully we don't have to use this!

Mark

From: Mark Watkins
30-Aug-15
In terms of pin size on an animal at a distance.....I was out shooting this AM at 100 yards. My .10 pin is about the size of a softball (maybe slightly smaller). on the vitals of my deer target. I tried to take a pic but it just didn't turn out well on my I Phone.

Mark

From: Shug
30-Aug-15
Gheezz you can kill a ram at 100 yards but you can't take a pic...c'mon Mark...

From: Bou'bound
30-Aug-15
Mark the cosign post could take this thread off on another tangent

From: Mark Watkins
30-Aug-15
I'll try the pic again. The challenge for the camera is focussing on two things at once. I will bring my camera home from the office...maybe on a manual setting?

Acute observation Bou.....

Mark

From: Medicinemann
31-Aug-15
I have heard of people being asked to cosign a note.....but using cosine is an interesting angle to consider.....

  • Sitka Gear