Gutless Method - Did it change the law?
Elk
I have been hunting Colorado for a long, long time. And I remember when the gutless method wasnt popular.
I also remember when the DOW [CPW] regs stated you werent required to take the tenderloins. I always have, but they can be a pain in the a$$ when doing the gutless method.
But now the CPW regulations state you must take the tenderloins as part of required edible meat.
Was this because of the growing popularity of the gutless method? Making hunters open up the body cavity to retrieve 2 small pieces of meat?
Just curious as to why the the law was changed.
Thoughts?
i go in from the spine base at the last rib from the top of the animal. not hard to get them out. 4 inch slit or so will give you access to them. maybe they changed the law because its not hard to get them?
To be honest I do gutless and always at the end go in and take the t-loins. If stopped at trail head and asked to see the t-lions. They are not going to see them as we always eat them before coming out. Ed
I never said it was 'hard' to get them out, just a PITA. And Like I mentioned, it never used to be a requirement.
In the past 25+ years, I bet I have taken them out of 100 +/- elk and a bunch of deer.
The CPW doesnt like the gutless method and hunters have been told that.
cnelk i think its been that way for the last 7 years at least. Only been hunting that long and its hard to get the loins from the gutless and you can't get the heart and liver.
Why would they be against gutless method? They want you to take the whole animal?
Maybe they should send an officer up to help pack em out? You'd see some fans of gutless then.....
You can get anything you want from the animal when using the gutless method...just get it at the end. If nothing else, the law might enlighten people who have failed to get the tenderloins in years past.
Why wouldn't CPW like the gutless? Do they not like the carcuses left in the field? I don't understand that position. At any rate the easiest way to grab those tenders is to pack a small folding or wire saw, cut through the spine at the 4-5 rib and pop the lower spine back and simply peel the tenders out. Easy-peasey!
Has the CPW actually come out in writing and said you must take them?? Love to know who lobbied for that law and why?? After the gutless is done, all meat off bones. I do the lions and some time the heart. I think gut less is a cleaner way the get the meat. Ed
I spend 30 seconds to partly open up the gut sack to provide more room when getting out the tenders, not much to it.
I couldn't imagine someone not taking the tender loins no matter what way you break it down, IMO they are the most succulent piece of meat on the animal although I don't think I would ever eat them on the mountain, I always save them for very special occasions.
Only hard for me because when I get to the t-loins I am getting pretty tired. Just take your time.
I have no problem with the law, it really isn't that hard to get the tenderloins out anyway. Why would anyone have an issue with being required to eat the animal they just killed?
WRT the tenderloins, who would knowingly leave the best part of the animal on the mountain? Elk are easier than deer IMO, a good deal more room to work with.
Seems a non-issue to me. Or rather an educational issue more than a mortal sin.
It's an overused term, but many if not most "regulations" are on that "slippery slope". Fine print that serves no real purpose but bureaucratic. Next will be required to take liver, heart, kidneys, tongue, oysters... etc. All edible parts.... if one wants to eat them.... but things that should be left up to the person cutting the tag. Not somebody sitting behind a desk looking for something to do to justify their paycheck.
"Why would they be against gutless method? They want you to take the whole animal?"
Because it's harder to take the tenderloins than the traditional gutting method. That's the point of the thread.
I totally disagree with it being harder to get the tenderloins by gutless. I suppose those of you that still gut think its an easy clean job to pull out a 100 plus pounds of nasty guts than to make a slit and pull the tenderloins out? The amount of work it takes to gut is way more than gutless ever would be including removing the tenderloins.
Even the liver is a piece of cake and as a couple of you that mentioned it, it is also much much cleaner. I've heard the argument that gutless doesn't get all the meat, which is what I figure the CPW must believe. Anyone who says that has never done it. The only time I would ever gut an animal now is if either required by a really dumb law or I had to let the animal stay over night before I could break it down.
I killed my first elk ever a couple weeks ago. I did the gutless method for the first time. I just slipped my hand up under the spine and worked the innerloins out; I never even had to use a knife. as for the heart. Once the front quarters are off. You can go in from the side and get the heart. Very easy.........
The reason why most game departments do not like people not gutting the animal is because the "gutless method" usually only resulted in taking the two hind legs at the hip joint, the two front shoulders, and the backstraps. Nothing more. It left a lot of edible meat on the side of a mountain or middle of a sagebrush flat.
Not saying any one on here who has posted already does that, just saying that was the majority of people doing it this way.
NM recently changed their regs citing you only have to take out a large percentage which basically allows you to leave rib cage meat behind.
It's actually really easy to open up the abdominal cavity and chest cavity to get what's inside after the animal is skinned and broken down. Then the insides can go and do whatever it wants to without making a mess out of the good stuff on the outside.
Just reach in from behind the ribs to get the tenderloins and go for the heart last.
Don't forget the heart. That's good stuff!!
OK...
Lets start again [let's exclude the parts if its easy/hard/tasty/heart/liver/etc]
Was the law changed because of the gutless method popularity??
Yes, it was changed because of the popularity - not enough LO's to issue citations and the courts would be overbooked from wanton waste charges.
as many have already testified....the inside loins are not hard to get using the gutless method....you just have to learn where they are and where to cut in to get them. The first time I did it was amazed at how easy they are to get out.
I would be interested in where you got the info that CPW hates the gutless method. I have shown pics of my finished product to the officers in my area and they say they wish more people did as good a job on the animal as I do.
So far as a PITA for the tenderloins? I don't know how you are doing it, but they come right out for me, no problem!
Easy to do. I would NEVER leave them on any animal...
Back on track AGAIN.
If the CPW was a proponent of the gutless method, why dont they have a video of that on their website? Instead of the traditional gutting way?
Just saying...
B/c its gov't, since when did they every make sense? There are sectors of gov't that are light years ahead of the public sector but there are also gov't agencies that are light years behind the public... this is one of those agencies. Good luck making that $200k/yr IT tech do his job.
4 elk a year cnelk? Crazy!
The problem is assuming "The CPW" likes or dislikes something based on one or two individual staff members opinions. Many times I have received conflicting information or answers on stuff that should be way more clear cut than what gutting method they think is best.
Taking the tenderloins isn't hard but the truth is that if a hunter skips taking a few pounds of prime meat, he's not really damaging the resource or victimizing anyone but himself. From a resource protection standpoint, I fail to see why a few pounds of tenderloin rates higher than a few pounds of neck meat. As a side note, if you share a freezer with anyone, always label tenderlions "neck meat" :^)
The regs keep expanding and following the letter of the law isn't as simple as it use to be. For instance, most guys don't realize you need to keep the carcass tag with your meat until it is consumed. Not just processed...consumed. I bet many (maybe most) folks with some Colorado elk or deer in the freezer couldn't produce the carcass tag that goes with it.
We did a video many years ago on the gutless method. I shared it with the Hunter Ed guys at the DOW. They were impressed enough by it to have me present it to the Master Hunter Ed instructors at their Master Hunter Ed workshop. Many of those instructors then bought the video for their classrom presentations. I was under the impression that the video we gave them would be available for any instructors to use as well.
Brad, I may be mistaken, but I believe I watched a video a few years ago on the CPW (may have even been CDOW at that time) website showing the gutless method. Does anybody else recall seeing this video?
Also, I have received conflicting information from CPW about what is considered the minimum legal parts you must take from the animal. Some say the neck meat and rib meat must be taken, while others say those can remain. I have not heard any conversation involving the loins. I have just always assumed that they were one of the coveted parts of the animal and if you left them or they were hit by a shot, you were missing out.
Mike
Two of the best cuts on the animal that is! I wouldn't miss out on those!
Okay guys. Here are all your questions answered. Although not the "gutless" method, it is a CPW video which shows how to bone an elk, in the field, and meet all the legal requirements about what portions of meat you must remove while leaving the carcass in the field.
cnelk
They may not have the video because 1) nobody has ever submitted one to show the right way to do it 2) gutting the animal is one of the best ways for the "Average Joe" to get the animal to a state that allows heat to escape so meat is not lost.
Quite possibly changed due to the gutless method, but in the grand scheme of things, it seems silly as they are two very small pieces of meat and the neck meat often gets left behind and that's a lot more meat.
If you have two people, the TLs are really easy to get via the gutless method if you have the other person push down on the abdominal wall with two hands just in front of the pelvis and right next to the spine.
I take the first TL from the side of the spine doing the gutless method, but then just slash the gut to get the 2nd one once the animal is flipped over and completely cut up.
Another easy way to get the heart is to slice along two ribs in front of where the shoulder used to be. Cut all the way down to where the ribs insert at the sternum. Then, with two hands, grasp the lower end of the rib that's cut on two sides and pull hard. It'll disclocate the rib from the sternum and you then have a lever that can be lifted with a nice opening into the chest. Reach in and sever the heart from the great vessels (you have to do this blind/by feel, so be careful), remove your knife, then lift the heart up to your opening. With your left hand, pull the left side of your opening open a little more and with your right hand, the heart will pull through the hole with little effort. I've removed deer and elk hearts this way.
For those in the Denver area who want a clear explanation by CPW personnel, there is a class on Oct 11 at the Hunter Ed building on Broadway. Click link for the details.
I think that the video made by the CPW, which I attached before pretty clearly answers any and every question that one could have about what meat is "edible" and what "evidence of sex" really entails.
"As a side note, if you share a freezer with anyone, always label tenderlions "neck meat" :^) "
now that's funny right there...
I really doubt any 'clear explanation' to the original question would be answered by any CPW personnel at that class.
Just using a little common sense here but the reason they probably changed the regs are because the tenderloins are a substantial amount of good clean tender meat that is so easy to remove that you would be insane not to take them. Heck, the antlers are much harder to get off the animal but you don't hear anybody complaining about taking those off after being so tired of dismantling an elk. There is absolutely no reason for gutting an animal if you are going to have to quarter it up to get it out of the woods. You can get every bit as much meat off the animal using the gutless as you could gutting it and then quartering it. The only time I gut an animal is if I am taking it out whole. It keeps the meat cleaner until you get it hung in the garage.
The rib meat must not be a substantial amount of good clean tender [edible] meat that is easy to remove.
At least not as good as the tenderloins huh?
Most people don't like or want the grind part that comes from the rib meat - why, I don't know.
The tenderloins are a very small amount of meat and wouldn't constitute a regulation change to to ensure people get it out...
Cnelk sorry your thread has gone astray and there have been so many off base responses to your real question.
But for the record, I love elk ribs, deer ribs and hog ribs and don't use the gutless method on anything!
"The CPW doesnt like the gutless method and hunters have been told that."
"I really doubt any 'clear explanation' to the original question would be answered by any CPW personnel at that class."
Hard to stay on track when the thread owner, it seems to me, isn't interested hearing any reasonable answers...
Who is this Mrelite guy who won't eat a tenderloin in the field because he wants to save it for a special occasion? Isn't killing an animal in the wilds with a bow a special occasion? To think that I agreed to spend a few weeks next year in the wilderness with this clown!?
There are two of em you know.... tenderloins I mean..... heheheheh.....
Sometimes I think there are a good many of folks within these depts who have never taken an elk in the backcountry. Maybe never taken a big game animal period.
Maybe some have the idea that everybody should have a gambrel and a hoist with them. Gutting an animal just to get at the tenders is way more work IMO than gutless. Just the very act of gutting an elk on the ground and then dealing with all that around the carcass is no walk in the park. Gutless should not be the bad guy here.
I remember a thread where the CA fish and game expected hunters to drag a tule elk out whole to where they could drive to. I wonder how many hands would go up within the dept to volunteer to help with that endeavor?
Gutting an elk on the ground by yourself can be a bit of a chore. With two people it's a cinch, and if not shot in the belly, it takes less than 10 minutes.
Plenty of neck meat to serve to the pack mules like arctichill, Ha Ha you'll be so tired you'll never know the difference!!
Alright here is the compromise arctic, we will eat the T loins from your animal and back straps from mine but if you gut shoot yours the deal is off!
I think the evidence of sex rule is gross and unnecessary.
I don't think it's hard to get to the TL's using the gutless method. After you slice away the flank, the guts tend to just sag out of the way in my experience. You get a little crud on your forarm, but it ain't that bad.
The thing I have a problem w/ is the stupid reg in MT that says you have to keep proof of sex naturally attached to the carcass. a buddy of mine asked a Warden about that once - how to do this when boning out an animal. He said to just leave it attached to "some piece of meat". So far I've just ignored that little rule. It may come back to bite me some day, but I always figure if I hassled by a GW I can always take them to the carcass. I'm pretty sure I don't want to keep anything "attached to a piece of meat" as it has hair and pee and things I really don't want touching any of the meat.
Sage,
It really isn't hard to do at all. We satisfy all legal requirements and don't contaminate any meat in the process.
sage, in colorado you have to leave proof of sex attached. nothing like a big ole set of bull balls attached to your hind quarter in a game bag. wtf.
sage, in colorado you have to leave proof of sex attached. nothing like a big ole set of bull balls attached to your hind quarter in a game bag. wtf.
And also in Colorado, you need to bring the buck/bull antlers out AND the meat/EoS [even if its legal spike]
Not stated in the regs, but its a requirement. The regs say OR - not AND.
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Sage, if you hunt Colorado and kill a buck or bull take my advice. Leave evidence of sex attached to meat or a quarter. Also, bring the head out as well on the initial haul before you transport (even to camp) so you can prove your animal was legal per the antler restrictions.
The tenderloin rule is an interesting one. No one would leave them, but seems kind of silly for such a small amount of meat.
I don't have a problem with the evidence of sex. Pretty easy to do. The only thing is as soon as you get to the butcher the 1st thing they do is chop of the sex organ and throw in the trash. When most archery tags are either sex it seems kind of silly to have evident of success.
When I took my Colorado hunters safety about 3 years ago, the two instructors stated they both use the gutless and the video they showed us was a gutless method on a pronghorn.
cnelk, I talked to two game wardens in my area last week who say they have absolutely nothing against using the gutless method, all they care about is that you are not wasting the animal and that the evidence or sex rules are followed.
Gutted or gutless has absolutely zero bearing on the amount of meat taken from the field.
Somehow, not long ago, someone came up with the idea to include the tenderloins in the requirement of meat taken from the field.
I understand they are 2 prime cuts of meat, but why werent they included years ago - i.e. before gutless method became popular? [approx 7 years ago]
So the CPW included the tenderloins, why not go one step further and include ribs? Pretty definite piece of anatomy there.
My opinion It's not the gutless.. It just 2 prime pieces of meat. Like you just stated cnelk... Ed
Brad, I have regs back to 2010 at my desk and it has always included tenderloins. Not sure exactly which year it was changed to your point.
I did the gutless method for the first time last week on an antelope hunt with my son. I had watched a few different videos on youtube about the best way to get the tenderloins out. I had no problem making the cut behind the last rib and locating the tenderloins. The difficulty was in holding the bulging gut sack away from the loins while I tried to cut them out without puncturing the gut sack. If my son hadn't been with me to hold the guts out of the way, I'm not sure how I would have done it, and even with him there it still wasn't easy. What's the trick on keeping the guts out of the way while working with a knife in there to free the loins?
I do not remember a time when the regs were different? I only heard of the gutless method about 5 years ago.
I would assume they had nothing to do with each other.
The T-loins is the last thing I take out.. I just slit the stomach muscle as if ur going to gut it (very easy as hide is out of way) and the insides will fall out of the way. I like the gutless, as I think it's a cleaner way to get the meat off and with the stomach in keeps the animal expanded out for easier meal removal. Ed
