I chose to punch my son’s tag meaning he could no longer shoot an antlerless deer. I did this because I know many outfitters do the same when people injure an animal and I believe it is even law in some states (I am thinking Alaska specifically). I believe Ted Nugent was busted for injuring a bear and then shooting a 2nd one. I felt confident that deer my son hit would die from infection. I feel the resource is not unlimited and there should be ramifications to one actions/outcomes. I have done the same with my own tag too.
My son was distraught and wanted to quit hunting over injuring an animal. He felt terrible because he knew he injured the deer and it would suffer, whether it died or not. I talked him off the ledge and he went back out with his buck tag but he chose not to shoot.
I only have two rules outside the law A) respect the animal and B) practice so you can be the best you can be.
So, what is the opinion of others? Was I too tough by cutting the tag and should I have just let him go until he got it right, or was it a good lesson in hunting ethics?
Hopefully your son doesn't lose interest and can punch his tag and have animal to show for it soon.
Mind you, I had all I could do to talk him into getting back out there because of how distraught he was over injuring the deer.
I truly believe that this ethics thing has gotten out of control. A lot of what we are currently seeing is a programmed response in my opinion. I don't like losing an animal nor, do I take the responsibility lightly of killing one. I just don't think we should be in tears over something we are trying to kill, when things go wrong.
This is hunting. And, nothing we hunt has the desire to end up on our plate. So, things happen sometimes that aren't favorable for us hunters. When they do, we have a choice to be so mentally upset and hurt that we quit or, we power on and learn from it.
I hate losing something and, do every thing in my power to keep from doing so. It starts with mental preparation and ends with me exerting every possible option I have to insure that doesn't happen. Yet, sometimes it happens. It is hunting. Not farming. And, as long as that is the way it goes, we will always have to face the realities that sometimes we loose our prize. There is no need to make that worse by punishing ourselves with some constraint that someone feels is deserving of it happening.
He is your boy. Teach him to be a hunter and, what it means to be a hunter. Part of that is him experiencing what all hunters will experience from time to time. The reality that things don't always go right. And, sometimes we lose the critter we shoot.
If I were to enforce a discipline on him, it would be to practice and become proficient before he was allowed to hunt. Not beat him with the reality he wounded an animal by making him punch his tag. He will do that himself.
We were in an area which is only 1 of 3 DMUs in the UP with antlerless tags, so the does are not unlimited. Mind you too that we were at a friend's camp so my son was embarrassed too. I mitigated the risk of this happening to another doe given the doe situation too. My son had no issue with this at all. I know he would not have shot at another doe anyway.
As for the shot, he drew on the deer 3 times and held and put down and yes, got away with that. He took the shot on the 4th draw and misjudged the quartering away angle. I told him that next time he draws and lets down more than once, to pass on the shot because he is still young and not that strong. He concurred with that. We have discussed angles often since too.
The kid loves hunting and shoots a lot. I'm not worried about losing him. As noted, he still had 2 buck tags and continued hunting.
Being able to make those decisions for himself is what will shape him to be who he will become one day, whether or not you or anyone else agrees with his decision(s).
1. His son still had a buck tag, his season wasn't ended with that decision.
2. The deer herd in WI and the UP went through a couple of tough winters and took a big hit. Most areas up North have no doe tags for regular hunters.
Happy - Like I said on the other thread, I think you made a tough call.
I think that it was the right one for the resource and circumstances. In the end, I think that it'll result in your son recognizing that he's a hunter and a steward of that resource.
Don't second guess yourself. I'd say have another conversation with your son. Even though it was hard for him, his view looking back may surprise you.
And though I'm just another guy on the internet and my opinion may be worth what I'm paid for it, I respect you both for making a tough decision. Erring on the side of caution with does for a bit will benefit the herd up North.
"It sounds to me like the thought of injuring the animal and it suffering was way more traumatic than punching his tag. I don't think it would have made a difference to his emotions either way punching tag or not. "
That is a very true statement and one that affects me the same way. We both have the utmost respect for all animals and hate to see any suffer unnecessarily.
WVM, I loved your reply. I wish I could have that same attitude towards the animals.
KJC...are you serious? You would expect a 14 year to make a parenting choice? If 14 year olds had that kind of discipline and judgement, we wouldn't need parents.
Lessons can be taught in a variety of levels. Maybe a discussion with him and let him decide the best thing to do. After all, it was his tag.
If he was truly distraught about hitting and losing the deer, losing the tag shouldn't be an issue in his acceptance of the situation and willingness to continue hunting. And while we all hope for a good outcome for a new hunter, the reality is often different, and they should be prepared for that ahead of time.
I think a better approach in this particular situation would have been for you to lead him into the right decision. Whatever that might be. In similar situations for myself, I've done either. Depending on ALL the circumstances, I've either quit for the year or continued to hunt after truly exhausting all my search efforts. Instead of punching a particular tag, you might have encouraged him to only shoot one more deer of either sex, essentially giving up one tag.
I suspect that the kid got lots of support, reassurance and reinforced values, not Judge Dredd. From what has been posted, happy turned around and encouraged him to get back after a buck.
I can relate to self doubt related to parenting, which is why I've posted again.
In my opinion, you gotta give it the best shot you can. And sometimes, you're still not sure if you shanked it. From what I've read, I think happy balanced "buddy" and "parent" well.
This...
"His age has nothing to do with it. If he's old enough to accept the responsibilities of hunting, then he's old enough to hunt. If he can't accept those responsibilities then he shouldn't be hunting yet. If he was truly distraught about hitting and losing the deer, losing the tag shouldn't be an issue in his acceptance of the situation and willingness to continue hunting. And while we all hope for a good outcome for a new hunter, the reality is often different, and they should be prepared for that ahead of time.
I think a better approach in this particular situation would have been for you to lead him into the right decision. Whatever that might be. In similar situations for myself, I've done either. Depending on ALL the circumstances, I've either quit for the year or continued to hunt after truly exhausting all my search efforts. Instead of punching a particular tag, you might have encouraged him to only shoot one more deer of either sex, essentially giving up one tag. "
And This.
Really??... yes, bowsite is an internet forum but imho it's also much, much more. It's a group of (usually) like minded folks who share a passion for an activity which often times is embedded in our personal and family lives. Nothing wrong a little fellowship and advice among bowhunters even if it does involve a bit of "family dynamic". Ultimately it is a bowhunting related topic and is the perfect place to ask such question.
"Why are you asking on an internet forum about your parenting skills, that should be decided inside your family dynamic and not on the Bowsite. "
Because I greatly value the opinion of other hunters, especially those better than me and who have more experience than me. I have learned from this and that was my purpose when I posted this on the WI site and here. My lesson taken away from all this is that going forward, any decision like this will be my son's.
For the record, my son had a successful kill in his first year when he was 13. He misjudged the size of the deer and shot a young doe. Once again, he was upset with himself although I praised him and tried to convince him he needed to celebrate. Anyone that knows me knows that I don't like others telling people what to shoot. He has no rules to follow when it comes to what deer to shoot. He was upset due to watching TV shows, reading websites, and reading publications seeing people's remarks about others shooting immature deer. Instead of being happy, he was worried about what others would say. That moment was very sad for me because I wanted to celebrate like there was no tomorrow due to how proud I was of his successful kill in his inaugural season. The pic is my son with his doe.
This is a new year and my son has been shooting very well. He practices a lot. His head is in the game. I have not hunted yet because I am waiting for his high school soccer season to end because I don't want to hunt without him. I own my own land now and he and I busted butt together working on it this summer. He's my fishing and hunting partner and I am PRAYING that if given an opportunity this year, that he has success. The pain he felt last year was twice fold for me feeling his pain.
Thanks again everyone for the candid opinions as that is what I was looking for.
I learned on my own, and trust me, it was hard, and was an eye opener. I think at times we try to make thinga real cut and dry, easy, mistake free when in reality, taking the life of an animal can be anything but mistake free at times.
Good luck
I hope you didn't expect what was going to happen was an atta boy? Maybe reconsider before you act next time and announce it on a web site. Maybe it would have been best that this should have been handled in family. Just my thoughts.
Yes, I did the last time it happened to me and will continue to do that for myself if/when it happens again.
"I hope you didn't expect what was going to happen was an atta boy? Maybe reconsider before you act next time and announce it on a web site."
I wasn't looking for an atta boy. I was looking for differing opinions and received many and I appreciate that. I don't have to reconsider anything either because I still feel I did the right thing and many others feel that too not that it matters. He still had tags and continued hunting. I took away the doe tag and as noted, we were in an area with limited doe tags and a reduced herd. What I have learned from this is that all these types of decisions will be his going forward.
I think if I knew my son was taking it seriously I would have let him keep his tag, if I thought he didn't care about what happened I would've done the same as you.
I agree with others talking about the enjoyment of kids being the #1 priority.
I do feel I should mention what you call your number one rule being respecting animals.
I'm a cattle veterinarian and I don't respect animals. I do respect Animals (as in the Kingdom, as in as a whole species) but I do not "respect" any individual critter. Ever. If I did I wouldn't be able to sleep at night considering what's required of me during my daily job.
I respect the deer species in that I try to be the best shot I can and only take good shots and put forth a solid recovery effort, etc.. but it would just feel awkward for me to say I respected that individual animal whose heart I just tried to slice open with a broadhead.
Not being argumentative or saying you're wrong, just some food for thought.
Bingo Charlie. I have probably learned more about deer and their movements while tracking than any other time spent in the woods, even deer in an area that I thought I knew inside out. That's one of the reasons why I never pass up an opportunity to help someone track. It's the best textbook you could have.
Hopefully that young man learned something on that trail.
Very common to wound game for novice bowhunters and the best way to diminish the probability of a wound again is to garner more experience shooting animals......a punched tag reduces his exposure to the proper approach to shooting animals with a bow.
It's more art than athleticism....let the briars,fatigue of recovery and mental anguish be the punishment but not the tag,imo
This is a new season and my son has his confidence back. His confidence was at an all time low when this happened and he did not hunt the remainder of the weekend last year. Confidence plays a huge part in this hobby too. When it is low, negative thoughts can rule the mind. I got him back out on a following weekend. His doe tag was not rendered unusable when this happened. He chose not to hunt the rest of weekend due to feeling bad for the deer and because of his confidence. I personally appreciate the remorse he showed for the animal. That is why we pray over everyone we kill.
We are excited for the season. Now I just need high school soccer to end because I won't hunt without him, especially on our new to us land. For the record, there are limited doe tags for this DMU and I purchased him one but did not buy one for me.
One thing I have learned as a parent is that every kid is different and there is no such thing as one size fits all.
For my kids, I wouldn't have punched the tag because they would have been sad and disappointed knowing that they made a mistake.
That's what people should feel when this happens.
If my child had a hard time understanding consequences I might have punched the tag.
I think a lot of guys over-react to wounding animals. The reality is F&G calculates wounding animals into their tag allocation and season lengths. They know we aren't perfect (nor should they).
Unless the law requires or you are on a guided hunt that requires a tag be punched. Don't do it. Obviously be conscious and check your equipment to make sure all is good.
Either way, I am not going to say whether what you did was right or wrong because you know your kid way better than we do.
But I don't think this was an example of that. The deer most likely suffered a mortal wound. I will punch my tag in that situation and would encourage my daughters to do the same. Since his hunting season was not ended it's not even a close call for me. Hunting is about much more than the kill. I think you did the right thing.
Draw Blood=Punch Tag
I've found that way too often people believe that it was a fatal hit when it wasn't. I've found that if you don't find the animal in about 400 yards and it wasn't shot in the guts, it almost always survives. I've seen a number of deer that have heeled up unbelievably well in a very short amount of time after suffering a "fatal" hit with an arrow. I'm not saying you did the wrong thing. I'm saying a lot of people don't really know a fatal hit when they see one. The first deer I shot, 37 seasons ago got away and I was devastated to the point of giving up bowhunting. Luckily, one of the guys who helped me track the deer, killed it a few weeks later with a rifle. I had hit the deer too far forward and the arrow never entered the rib cage. It was really hard to tell that he had been hit at all. It's up to you to decide if it was a fatal hit. No one else. It's also up to you to keep it quiet and not give more ammo to the anti's
As long as he understands the ramifications of wounding an animal (sounds like he does), then yes, you were way too harsh with him.
I do,and have used a self imposed fine to the outfitter for a wound on a guided hunt.
The only true 'poor parenting' would be to not wanting to spend time with your kid at all.
The decision to keep hunting or not depends on a the context of why it happened. With common species like deer and elk. We are kidding ourselves if we think punching a tag or continuing hunting after a loss has a measurable effect on management.
The decision for me would have everything to do with what is best for my son. If a lesson needs to be taught and stopping the hunt for the season is the best way to get the right result, I might do that. If he did his best, stayed within his abilities and handled the situation right, chances are we would keep hunting.
Sounds like you have a great kid. Congratulations to him on taking the young doe. Its absolutely something to celebrate. There are more than a few adults getting started that took longer or are still trying for their first animal. A doe like that is simply a treasure for table fare as well.
My suggestion is make sure every hunting trip is enjoyable and successful. That has ZERO to do with animals seen, shot opportunities or tags filled. All that stuff will come with time and good decisions. It is not required to make a successful trip.
The thing is, this was not taken seriously. I hurt as he hurt. I too shed tears for him hurting. I had all I could do to get him hunting the following weekend after he did not hunt anymore the weekend it happened. There was nothing but calming words given to him by me and the others at camp. He was not taken behind the camp and switched ala Adrian Peterson as some must be thinking. There was a concern over his embarrassment with this happening on someone else's land the fact does were more scarce than any time we've been there before due to the tough winters. I erred on the safe side from a herd perspective while he was still able to hunt for bucks and then either specie back in WI.
Anyone who thinks I might have been verbal or negative with him is wrong in that regard. I would never do that with my kid and only was supportive. He's been hunting since he was 10. He shot a bear at age 10 and then deer under the mentor program. He's been around hunters his own life and has heard enough to come to many conclusions on his own. I personally love his respect for animals.
Two months ago, he told me he was not shooting well and would not hunt this year. I told him to take a step back and we analyzed things. We took his bow in for tuning and that was the ticket. He once again had his morals in check versus being an arrow flinger. Part of that was truly the ethics he learned from me and others since he was young.
my comment early on was it was fine as he was not precluded from hunting so no big deal on your punishment.
then as more came out in your responses it boil it down to
the kid felt bad.
that was sufficient.
why impose penalties on top of his anguish?
if he was cavalier in his approach and heartless then your actions would have been needed and justified.
given his own personal flogging your piling on did nothing positive or incremental to the situation. heck he was not going to go out again for a doe anyway so why tell him he couldn't.
Grats on having a son to hunt with. You're a lucky man. Sounds like you're doing everything right and have everything going for you.
As far as punching a tag on a wounded animal, I've done it and I've not done it. I think it's a personal decision.
EXACTLY!
That, and by spending 2+ days on the track with him you turned this into a priceless educational opportunity.
Your son probably learned more about deer doing this than if he had killed it.
As far as the tag thing, I agree with others in that he's YOUR son and you must do what you feel is best for him.
The elders that I learned the art of the hunt from were obsessive trackers and would also spend days following a deer they hit. The trails I went on with them were like being in a classroom. They also butchered all their own deer and taught me likewise, which enabled me even at a relatively young age to have a very good grasp of deer anatomy and just exactly WHERE all those things are on a deer under the skin and on the bones.
Immerse him in the hunt...ALL of it. It's all part of the whole. It's not a video game. It's REAL: life, death, and accepting the responsibilities of what goes with it, good and bad.
Keep at it, you're doing good!
You did just fine. I see 2 different issues here...
1. The kid fatally hit an animal. The father decided to punch the tag which right or wrong has no real impact on the issue.
2. The kids felt guilt and bad about wounding and loosing an animal. Which This guilt the kid felt internally kept him from hunting. If not then the kid would have been happy to keep looking for a buck.
The only thing the dad could have done is support his kid and let him realize that when you hunt there is a risk.
I am not sure at all how anyone can call what you did was wrong.
