Do My Knees Need An Operation?
Elk
For a couple years now I've had the back of my left leg along the length of the calf & the front of the knee area become very painful during our elk hunts. Funny thing is in the off season through all my workouts I feel no pain or have any issues. The issue I do have is going downhill even when all I'm carrying is a pack with no more than 15# I can go uphill for miles & cover 1800' day after day with zero pain, it's as if nothing is wrong.
When I start downhill & cover a 100 yards or so with miles to go the pain & leg movement is impaired to the point I have to take a muscle relaxer & 1/2 a Vicodin if I'm going to get down the mountain. It's not pain free by any means but it helps to tolerate it. It gets to the point going down that I have to lift my leg over 6" to 8" debris. Getting over the big stuff is like an Olympic event & almost comical but I'm not laughing! (grin) Funny thing is even at the height of the pain I can turn around & go back up hill & no pain??
I've dealt with this for a few years now & only feel it during hunting seasons so I forget about it outside of it. I'm not a doctor type guy but need to probably quit being a stubborn 60 year old & check it out.
Anyone experience this before? If so what was the remedy? Thanks!
ElkNut1
Going downhill is the hardest thing on our legs and knees, I know that I am more uncomfortable going downhill especially the steep stuff.
"I've dealt with this for a few years now & only feel it during hunting seasons so I forget about it outside of it. I'm not a doctor type guy but need to probably quit being a stubborn 60 year old & check it out.
Anyone experience this before? If so what was the remedy? Thanks!"
I would recommend that you consult with an orthopedic surgeon and get to the root of the problem. I think you have determined part of the problem "being a stubborn 60 year old." I'm older you than you are and can tell you that stubbornness has never provided any medical healing or relief for pain. Sadly as we get older we will probably experience more medical issues. Take advantage of medical knowledge and advances. Many times "living in pain" is simply an option.
May have to sit a tree stand!
How far down the back of your leg? It could be something as simple as your IT band being way too tight.
Good news is you have come the right place for top quality medical advice! You are going to be fine. Just take two asprin and relax for a few days. All will clear up. No issues of a structural nature involved.
Charlie, I darned near spit my coffee on my key-board laughing with that comment! (grin) Nothing wrong with Treestands, you just caught me off guard!!
Thanks guys for the comments, I just hate medical stuff, I know not smart but was curious of alternatives, maybe none to be had!
JLS, it's from top of calf to my foot. I was hoping the muscle/tendons or something were stretched or tore & could heal?? Thanks.
ElkNut1
Lol, Bou'bound is absolutely correct!!!!!
Find a doctor and PT that has a back ground in high level athletics.
Could be your boots, foot beds, tight IT band everything!!!! Most PT's should have to work on your posterior chain and flexibility.
When I went in for my left knee the standard course of action was an X-ray, then an MRI. Doc said torn meniscus. There are therapies other than arthroscopic to try. Most surgeons seem to recomend a surgical procedure, that is how they earn a living. If you get a surgeon who doesn't recommend surgery, he's probably a good doctor! If you look at the bios for orthopedic knee guys, most of them do knee replacements. Must be where the money is....
Now, I need to go get my right knee MRI'd.
The first week of my elk hunt, I could hardly walk after a few days. Lots of fluid build up, stiffness and pain. All the advil was tearing up my gut. Went back home, had a steriod shot, and went back elk hunting. Less pain and stiffness, but packing my elk out alone sucked. Trekking poles helped.
Good Luck - the MRI will tell whats going on soft tissue wise, you can make an informed decision from there.
I never consult with a doctor about my bow hunting issues.
Welcome back to bowsite. Don't stay away so long next time ;-)
I know exactly what you are feeling.
I had a complete knee blow out in HS (30 yrs ago)and I have to ware a de-rotation brace when doing anything athletic.
If I am not wearing it when I am coming down a steep grade; I get the exact pain you describe.
So, it sounds like you do need to see a DR on this issue.
There are plenty of good knee doctors out there, with the state of the art having evolved because of football injuries and ski injuries. Find the best knee expert in your town, and see that doc.
I disagree with Grasshopper on the motivations of the docs. I have a shoulder injury from a rollerblading accident. The ortho guy I saw here told me that the rehab would be longer, and cost more than the surgery, and with my hobbies, I should put the surgery off until I can't function. That is how the pros operate.
I am 50 and I played football for over 25 years of my life on some level. My knees started hurting when I was around 40. I went to an orthopedic surgeon and had a couple MRI's. He said it was basic wear and tear. He went in and cleaned up both knees, there was feathering and old scar tissue. That was about 10 years ago and I have not had much discomfort since. It may be that simple, that you just need to have your knees scoped and cleaned up a bit. Best advise is to find a good orthopedic doctor and do what he says. Shawn
Orthopedic surgeon bow hunting addict right here. I have bad knee arthritis and it kills me to go downhill. I have used hiking poles the last 3 years and the difference is amazing. You should see an Ortho doc though and the two most likely diagnosis are arthritis and meniscal tear in that order. Best of luck and use the poles in the interim
Good stuff folks! This really helps out a lot, I really appreciate all the advice. It's inevitable that I need to have it checked out, it's good to hear from guys that have been through similar issues as this.
I know most are not doctors here but many have been there done that so it helps guys like me to see this through your eyes, thank you!
ElkNut1
Hi Paul,
It's been a while! Nice to see you back on Bowsite!
I had a similar issue last year on an elk hunt with my cousin. I was having a lot of issues with my knees going downhill but not much going up. After I returned home I mentioned this to my chiropracter when I went in for a tune up. He said there was a good chance that my spine being out of alignment could have had a big part of the pain I was feeling in my knee. I think he was right. I have been on a couple of hunts since then and not really noticed a lot of pain. Maybe worth checking out. Good Luck!
The problem with you older guys is that you always walked 3 miles to school and back everyday and it was uphill both ways. You guys never went downhill so your legs didn't get the needed exercise.
Paul, you need to go see an ortho.
How old are you? It's best not to replace joints till you're 65 because the hardware doesn't last forever and you don't want to do the surgery a 2nd time as an old man.
Usually, when the pain is intermittent, it's not time for replacement. You might just need a cortisone injection before the season. Sometimes downhill induced pain is fixed with PT or a brace.
Go see an ortho and he'll tell you what shape your knee is in and what your options are.
"The problem with you older guys is that you always walked 3 miles to school and back everyday and it was uphill both ways. You guys never went downhill so your legs didn't get the needed exercise"
That is the problem right there. They always walk uphill.
Paul, when going downhill there is more stress on your knee joint than when going uphill. The ligaments and especially the meniscus in your knee are absorbing more of that forceful landing of each step. I'd see an ortho. You most likely have worn down your meniscus over the years and the "cushions" in your knees are starting to wear out. I'm no doctor but I did have enough knee surgeries while playing sports as a young man that I know how the knee works! Sucks getting old, but it happens to all of us hopefully.
I trained on my stairs this year with a 40# pack. First year EVER that I didnt have terrible knee pain when going down hill. Not saying its everyones answer but it solved my problem and I was contemplating the doc also.
I'm no doctor but I had a similar but milder knee issue a few years ago. I think it's a big jump to be talking about surgery and talk of knee replacement is crazy.
If the only time you have pain is going down hill during elk hunting but the rest of your life the knee is fine then you just need to work out a management strategy for the elk hunt.
By all means talk to a Doc. In my case, I drove back into town and got a knee brace at the pharmacy and it worked like magic. I would imagine the Doc will likely recommend trying some combination of a knee brace, a leg strengthing and stretching program and appropriate pain relievers. BTW, there are some very good prescription topical pain relievers for joint and muscle pain out there now. I wouldn't even think about surgery unless you rule out all noninvasive approaches first.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a doctor and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
A couple of years ago, I hiked Yosemite Falls - all the way to the top. No problems going up, but my knees were killing me on the way down (which is not what you've described but bear with me...).
I was wondering how the heck am I going to get all the way down when this younger kid went flying by down the trail taking full strides. Taking that in mind, I thought well at least I would get down in half the amount of time. So I increased my stride and pace.
Wouldn't you know it - my aches eased up and I was walking without much trouble. The only way I can explain why it worked was because I wasn't using the muscles to stop my self (not much exercises to do for this) as much as I was using them to steer myself. Since then, I've used this technique when hunting and haven't had the same issues.
All of this being said - by all means, see a doctor. But if you're out there again and having difficulties it might be worth a try.
Just this year I thought I had injured a knee at work.
I even filed a Workman's Comp claim.
I could walk flat all day long, but going up and down stairs killed me. Severe pain in the front of the knee area, so bad I had co-workers go up the stairs first, and down last, because I thought my knee would give out.
The Orthepaedic Surgeon's diagnosis: Osteoarthritis.
I am 58, and he was surprised this was my first arthritis attack.
Cortisone shots cleared it up. I have had two so far. No problems with stairs or ladders after the shots.
He says because he injects between the knee joint, I can get unlimited shots.
Thanks again for your thoughts! Maybe I should give a short rundown about myself!
I'm 60 years old & have a 4 day a week workout regiment that runs 1-hr 45minutes each day. I'm in good shape at 5'7" 152# -- Not over weight or lack of exercising. But I do know my left calf area to my foot & sometimes the knee do go south on me! (grin)
Lots of great info to consider here, thank you!
ElkNut1
Always best to see a doctor. But based on your explanation I would offer that it may be that just haven't developed the muscles that involve the down hill hikes. Might just mean a little adjustment in your PT regiment
Paul sorry about the knee pain had mine scoped this year, but heck with that how big was that bull this year?
get it checked out NOW, then you will be ready for next year.
I didn't read all the posts so plz forgive if I'm repeating but I blew out my knee playing hockey when I was 18. I never feel pain except for when it's cold. Do you think the temp has anything to do with your issue
knee socks really helps me up and down the mountains.
They hold all of the connective tissue, ligiments, etc together while at the same time, keep the knee warm and flexable. Really help when going down hill.
and then one and sometimes two walking sticks to keep balance over rough country, expecially down with a heavy pack. Yep, 75 years old knees really appreciate that support.
By best, Paul
God bless you Paul!!!! I can only pray I can do what you're doing at 75!!!!!!
Tom, that's the way I'm leaning for that exact reason, thanks! I have to wait a bit though as Muley season starts Saturday, not sure when I'll tackle them but no doctor visits till after it's over! I'm sure you understand! (grin)
Tracker12, I do a pretty serious aerobic up & down 14 stairs with 20# & 30# year around, I wish it was a simple as muscles not being used to down hill use. If it were that I believe both knees would be affected.
Bow junkie, temps have no effect on the knee/calf, but good thought, thanks!
Paul, got the knee socks & an ace bandage wrapped tight on left calf/knee area when I'm hunting. Good to see you're still at it sir! Thanks!
JohnB, The good Lord shed a bit of light on me & blessed me with a 5-point this year. My son called him to me for a 25 yard shot! Thanks!
ElkNut1
Congrats on getting it done with the son I bet he learned a thing or two about how, when, what to call from the old man!
I agree with Paul@thefory. I have had exactly the same painful issue you describe, okay going uphill but going down is near impossible. Neoprene knee sleeves solved it, 100%! Of course a consult with a doctor isn't a bad idea, but if the sleeves work......
Paul, that is terrible but like others have said downhill is always the worst while hiking. I have had problems with my patella tendons going stiff on me while hiking to the point I can't walk. This has happened since my early 20's. I do over 40 miles a week and and run run run but when I walk (on flat ground during my lunch) my right knee hurts like hell, sometimes if I step wrong it feels like my knee is being twisted. Some say it's arthritis setting in but what's strange is that it doesn't happen when I run (as a wise hunter says, grin?). Might be a good idea to get in to see an orthopedic doctor or do as Charlie said and sit in a stand, ha ha ha...
Good advice above Paul..... I was gonna suggest knocking the Vicodin back with a couple beers or a "freeze dried" shot or two (saving weight and bulk... from what I understand anyway) would get ya down the mountain.... but then I thought better of it.... (grin)
I am with the Chiropractor group.....kinda surprised me how much an out of line?? backbone can affect a lot more than a back!
For sure go see your Dr..
Good luck, Robb
fawn, I am wearing the knee socks & ace bandage! They help for sure in the unstable country we hunt but nothing is stopping the downhill pain so far!
ixsolracxi, good to see you bud, thanks for your concern! I agree on the Doc advice but not the treestand part! (grin) I'll wait till I'm older for that! Although treestand hunting is very effective! I'm a runner & gunner at heart who loves bugling those bulls!
TD, now you & I are on the same page! (big grin) Ha Ha, the Vicodin does help for sure, without it I would not have been able to pack out my & my sons bulls, I probably shouldn't have packed those loads but I am stubborn at heart, just ask Pat! (grin)
BULLELK1, (Rob) good to hear from you! Never thought about the chiropractor suggestion until read it above, honestly though I feel the left leg is way beyond that, we are talking some serious pain here going downhill, almost enough to bring tears to your eyes, instead it brings up an anger in me to push harder, it really gets to ticking me off, I'm not used to not pulling my weight. Thanks!
JohnB, Thank you! Yes Paul II is quite the caller, we make a good solid team, nothing like the bond & hunting with your son, it's my favorite part! Here's the elk I called to him this year, his shot was also 25 yards, took me 20-25 minutes to coax this guy in from 250 yards away, he was holed up in some super thick alder/willow brush that we just couldn't get through so was very fortunate to pull him down through it! Why is it the kids have to out do there pops? Or should I look at it that I called in the bigger bull!(grin) Here's his bull from this year, the hole seen is the exit!
Thank You everyone for your comments!
ElkNut1
id suggest going to see a chiropractor as well, one that specializes in sports injuries. ive had 5 knee surgeries - 4 acl replacements (2x each knee) and one knee scope - so i require a bit of maintenance and im only 30. dry needling, IT band rolling, etc could all help. there also could be other issues such as pelvic alignment, back strength, etc. seeing a good chiro will help get you going on the right path. in my experience, doctors wanna cut you open. start with the non-surgical steps first, see if those work.
We must have some part of the brain that turns on when we think it is better to not go the doctor in case there is bad news.
I pretty much knew that I had skin cancer and delayed going for 2-3 years - sure enough, it was cancer and they had to cut out much more than they would have if I had gone when I first noticed it.
Probably not a good analogy, but you should get started with your doctor now (GP will take a while before getting you to Ortho or PT). I have been surprised how knowledgeable PTs are with this type of thing. If it is a knee issue, it is better to get it worked on now rather than continue to grind it down (masked by vicodin) and have to have a full replacement. If it can be dealt with PT, it is best to start on those exercises now and have 11 months to strengthen the area.
BTW - it sounds like you have 2 separate issues going on although one (calf/Achilles) might be a result of walking differently because of the painful knee.
Good luck (and make the appointment today).
Im 47 and felt every morning like I was 80.. sore muscles, back hurt always, etc... a doctor told me to take two Naproxin Sodium pills everyday (generic allieve). I feel now like im 25 again....
Paul,
It may also be something as simple as the way you are walking uphill. Many years ago I went through the same going downhill, serious pain. After ages days of this, I noticed that when I was walking uphill, I had my feet pointing out sideways because it was easier to walk up hill that way. As soon as I corrected my gait and started keeping my feet pointed uphill when climbing, the problem went away.
Just something to think about the next time you are out in the woods.
Mike
I just had my 3rd knee surgery in 4 years this morning..... why? because of the pain/swelling/discomfort and I'm taking my son elk hunting first time in 2016
the pain would have hampered me ...
Thanks again guys, I really appreciate you taking the time to comment on my issue! Right after Deer Season I will have it checked out. What really has helped here is the various thoughts & suggestions. I definitely will consider more than one option & not just get cut open. You guys have opened my eyes, thank you!
ElkNut1
if its a scope for a solution - its not that bad really ....
I found that once the knees start to hurt from not wearing the sleeves, the sleeves only keep the pain to a minimum. If I start the season or heavy hikes wearing them, then I can go the entire season pain free. The sleeves that work for me are the solid ones. Ace wraps and sleeves with a patella cutout don't do it. I had a physical therapist hear my story. I explained where the pain was and they came over and put their finger exactly on the spot and pushed. PAIN!! What they told me was that it was muscle based in nature and that I needed to strengthen that muscle. Riding a bicycle or swimming was recommended since the simple act of hiking doesn't work on that particular muscle. It worked! It does still bear talking with a doctor to see what they think. From personal experience, if they want to cut, ask them if there is any physical therapy or other methods that can work, or at least stave off the inevitable surgery. Many doctors are quick to go right to the end result, surgery($$$$$), and don't offer other options. Second opinions are also good since they do call it the "practice" of medicine.
If you need an operation, the recovery isn't so bad. I had total right knee replacement on June 2, 2014. Since they didn't use any screws or glue on one of the fittings, I had to use a walker for a couple of weeks until the bone grew into the fitting. After that it was just the usual PT and I worked pretty hard at it. Was walking normally by August and by Sept. could cruise the elk mountains with a lot less pain than the previous years.
When I did the PT, I also worked the left knee the same, and it strengthened all of its muscles and helped tremendously for going down hill.
Surprised that they let you back on here. LOL!
If you are going to have that knee worked on, right now is the time to have it done. You'll have the whole year to heal back up. Wait too long and the only thing you'll be doing next season is wishing that you could hunt. (Voice of experience)!!!!
Listening to everyone on here isn't making you any better. Only you can make the decision.
So do you want to hunt next year or just wish you were able to hunt? Remember, complications can happen.
Thanks guys! I consulted with an orthopedic surgeon & we have a plan to now work with! Thanks again!
ElkNut1
At least it's only your leg. My whole body feels that way. You might check out a Rolfer. They are like a PT person and a massage therapist except they work on the deep tissue. If you have butchered your own animals you would know how the different muscle groups are separated. They separate the groups and stretch them out so that they are even. Sometimes one gets tight and causes a limp, pain or leaning to one side. Having needles poked into me has never helped at all. Pills just mask the problem.
I can't go down hill very fast either. Yes, I do use walking sticks. This year was my last elk hunt. My son had to skin, quarter and carry out my bull. Hope that you find a solution to your problem. I still listen to your elk calling video.
These days Paul.... you're miles ahead already just getting to see the orthopedic surgeon.
When I had shoulder pain (seeing 6 different colors of pain when drawing my bow, had just come back from a bear hunt where I just got barely got it done) the GPs sent me to PT... pain and torture...
I did that for nearly a year. No help, not any better than when I started, maybe worse. FINALLY got the go ahead from the HMO to see the specialist. I was literally in his office for 5 min. The first words out of his mouth were "What are these people doing? This will never be fixed through PT. You need surgery, I'll have the desk schedule you."
In about 6 weeks I was working light "weights" drawing my surgical tubing "bow" and 8 or 10 weeks I was shooting reduced poundage. Amazing when you get to talk to someone who specializes in their field.
Good luck with the knees.
TD, you are exactly right, don't mess around with anybody but a specialist.
Yes, it was great to talk to an expert & see how to start working out the issue! At this time he feels I have a pinched nerve in my back that is the result of my calf issue. I'm working with that at present! Time will tell. Thanks!
ElkNut1
Physical Therapy I started last winter helped my right knee a lot this fall. Basically it was surgical tubing resistance exercises and knee bends up and down the wall with an exercise ball behind the back. No issues with the knee swelling or pain during 19 days of actual sheep hunting, long back pack trips in and out, etc. I use hiking poles as well, but it was the PT that made it pain free this fall. Good luck and keep going!
Come on over I can take care of it. I'm well versed in knee surgery after having 18 knee surgeries and three replacements. Being a taxidermist I'm good at sewing and have seen myself up. My ortho surgeon was even impressed. You will need to bring your own anesthesia if you choose. I can do it with or without.
ElkNut1,
Think you made a wise decision and listened to some sage Bowsite MD advice- go see a medical doctor.
Hope the doctor will soon put you on the road to relief and recovery.
Take it from a guy that has had three acl repairs and assorted stuff in each knee. What you speak of I can relate. Downhill is terrible. Uphill is no problem.
What you speak of sounds like a lack of meniscus all together. If the knee catches and.or pops, might be a cartilage tear causing it. Go see an Ortho. Doc and he'll get you straight. Probably going to be some PT and, maybe injections. If the knee doesn't catch or pop, there likely won't be any major tears that require scraping. Go get it looked at man. I promise they will get you on the tract to be better off next fall if you let them help you God Bless.
Pinched nerve in the back? Starting to sound more and more like a chiropractor fix. Check out "piriformis syndrome". It causes butt and leg pain instead of the classic back & leg pain normally associated with "sciatica".
Thanks guys, I'm definitely working on resolving the issue which ever direction it takes me!
Yes a possible pinched nerve in the back, my back isn't hurting though at all it's only down the left leg which is possibly caused by the pinched nerve. I do know I was on my knees yesterday helping my son out at his house, I paid for that with little sleep last night with the throbbing/annoying pain from the knee down, man when will I ever learn! (grin) Kneeling down working for an extended period really accelerated the pain. Oh well life goes on!
ElkNut1
Squat. Build that posterior chain as well as your quads
"almost enough to bring tears to your eyes, instead it brings up an anger in me to push harder "
Dude.... That's a great way to turn a knee problem into a knee replacement surgery. You obviously know how to hunt Elk and it'd be a shame to see you quit.
Rule #1 in asking for medical advice: Ask an actual DOCTOR.
Go see an orthopedist. Get the film, get the opinion, and get a second or third if you don't feel good about it. Sometimes - like my completely blown and as-yet-unrepaired ACL - it's a complete no-brainer. Don't be a moron like me and put it off - Get It Done. If it's not a slam dunk, you may get referred to a PT first to see if you can get the stability that you need from selective strengthening and conditioning. Good surgeons are never in a hurry because they know that you'll be back when you really need them.
Be well!
Thanks again guys! I have talked with both Orthopedic surgeon & a Physical Therapist, both said identical things, they both believe the issue is a pinched nerve in my back leading to the left leg issues. I've been doing the core exercises that were recommended by them both, time will tell how it's doing! My leg definitely feels better after getting on the regiment. Thank you!
ElkNut1
Glad you don't need surgery! Good Luck with the rest of the rehab!
Your describing more of a muscle ligament issue rather than in the knee joint. My best case diagnoist and treatment reccomendation is an in home well built blonde swedish massage therapist. If the massage does not do the trick at least your mind won't be on the pain.
Heat, thanks!
I think we have a winner here! Huntcell, do you have a personal recommendation? LOL!!
ElkNut1
A while back I was having similar type of knee issue that was caused by nerves and man was it painful. As I started going down hill I would end up having to side step with the bad knee facing down hill and like you said stepping over things really hurt. It would start by gradually moving through my thigh and groin muscles and end up on the inside of my knee, it kind of mimicked a meniscus problem. Thanks to a good PT and massage therapist that worked over the nerves and muscles we eventually worked it out and I have never had another major problem, I still feel the twinge of nerves at times but with a few certain stretch's the nerves don't get aggravated to where it hurts.
Hope everything works out for you as it did for me and you find that Swedish therapist! LOL "well built" can mean different things!! Like Helga!
mrelite, wow dude you had me laughing out loud over that one!(big grin) Aside from that thanks for the input, that's very encouraging with the course I'm taking at present!
ElkNut1
I had knees that hurt when going down hill. they hurt to the point that I went to a ortho doctor. he said it was a very typical thing and that he would see lots of patients every hunting season. it is a lack of stretching. not just before the hunt but every day. the muscles in the hams get tight putting pressure on the knee when it is fully extended going down hill. its like a bungy cord on the back of your knee pulling the joint together. I started a stretching program years ago and have not had my knees hurt since. it does not go away over night it takes time to stretch the muscles out.
As we get older, core strength is important, it gives you balance which takes TONS of pressure off other things. Especially important for hunting/hiking, with all the walking up, down and across hills and on terrain that is uneven step to step, core strength helps tons.
Unfortunately, day to day life, especially we get older, core suffers. It takes work.
Tore my left meniscus and had it removed in 1962. After years of Army running in formation the bone on bone grinding forced me to stop. More years of climbing hills and packing meat and I ended up getting a total knee in May of 2010.
With a lot of PT and determination I was able to get a bull in Colorado. A short pack and help from friends made it enjoyable.
Had the right knee done last year and had the top part of the appliance gapping from the femur so the redid that part in April. It's still not as good as I'd like ( passed on early elk season- plan to hunt them later this month ) But at 70 I get around.
Point is---- don't gut it out and get to a point beyond a simpler fix.
Don't let it get to this point.
Yes, I see strengthening the core is essential, thanks Bob!
Greg, how are you doing? Long time no see sir! Thanks for the suggestions as well. Nice to hear from someone too that's been through similar issues! Thanks!
ElkNut1
