As of late, I can't help but feel a bit of animosity towards guides and their clients. Last year I didn't draw my tag, and a guide got on and shot a real nice MD. This year, big time money thrown around to access it again as there are some huge deer around. It seems the only saving grace is the fact that the LO parents drew a tag, and he hopes his dad will shoot a giant so no access was given.
I will be archery hunting after said LO gets through with his hunt, and hope he shoots a good one with the rifle. I actually hope to be there when he does, but the question is, for guys that use guides (never have) do you ever stop to think who you may have displaced?
I get the money thing, but it still bugs me a bit if for no other reason but the way some of they guides act when they see you glassing. It's like I'm the problem.
From elk hunts, to deer hunts, it's starting to get old.
I think you are still lucky to be allowed to hunt land for free that others must pay to use.
That said, I understand your frustration.
that is his right.
They made an offer that the landowner couldn't refuse and my buddy's sweat equity became inconsequential.
Outfitters have almost bumped my bowhunting partner and I off of our buddy's property. We can only hunt one week and a long weekend at most any given year because of work schedules. We can not compete financially with someone who could be potentially running clients fifteen weeks on a lease.
The control demanded by the outfitters and clashing personalities caused the deal to fall through, so we still have access.
But I don't blame my buddy or other landowners for finding that money attractive. Here in IL, property taxes are ridiculous. I wish that handshake and sweat equity access were still common. I wish that I was better looking and independently wealthy. I don't know what you can do about there being people with the means to put a higher value on something than you can afford...other than to keep working hard to make things happen.
If I owned my own ground in IL and paid the ridiculous taxes on it, I wouldn't have to worry about getting bumped. I'd have more expensive worries though.
This big money for animals gets sad for me. Shouldn't be like that.
I've lost free/cheap access to someone willing to pay more for it, and my first thought was to be grateful for having had the access while I did. It didn't occur to me to be angry about coming up short in the value proposition where I was in essence telling the LO that what the access was worth to me was $0.
Nothing remains the same, but it just seems like you can throw money at anything these days. Bounty hunters is all they are.
As stated......good to have the previous opportunity but time to stake a claim!
The only thing I've ever hunted for the asking is coyotes. Nobody in the cow business wants them, but lots of folks still don't want you on their places.
I can imagine in the places where huge bucks are found, it's even worse.
We all grew to become friends...hunters and farmers...and although "we" are all of humble means, we would bring what thank you gratuities from Wisconsin we could.
After a few years of this, including being invited to meals with one particular farmer and family...great folks...upon arrival we were told permission could no longer be granted. He had leased his property to a group of big money boys from Georgia. I couldn't blame him...he had family to take care of and these guys offered a ridiculously high amount to shoot pheasants.
I don't know anyone who would've said no to that offer, but that fine farmer gent cried like a baby when he informed us. We hold no hard feelings, but gave up on that state's hunting due to this now common practice.
Bottom line...hunting is rapidly spiraling to a rich man's folly. The simple worker bees just can not justify the cost...and that's a damn shame.
Well...I still have ONE decent property I'm allowed to hunt here at home. I would dearly love to possess my own hunting property, but just can't afford it.
IMO access and tags to public ground should be by drawing only with no regard for cost irregardless of residency. If the land owner wants a trespass fee that should still be his prerogative, but it should be capped at a reasonable amount.
If not the African system will come into being.
I am also in a club where a group of us lease land to hunt. We establish rules and hunt accordingly. I have paid for the right to hunt under those rules and I fully intend to hunt every chance I get.
I also pay every year to hunt on public lands which by the way so far has been where I see the best bucks to hunt. Much more land to hunt and much harder to find the right places but more rewarding for me.
I don't use guides nor will I pay to hunt a particular deer. I don't think high fence hunting is legit hunting and I do understand that money talks and if it's legal you should be able to do it. (It's not for me) I have been invited to hunt inside a high fence (all expenses paid) and I refused. Everyone has their thoughts on this and that's nothing I can change. Everything involves money in some way or another, but if the principals are something I don't agree with then I will pass on it. It's tough living in a world where everyone has an opinion that differs from yours. Some are just downright dumb, others have no since of loyalty and the few that you can get alone with are not worth fighting with over the small stuff.
You want the government to say what a private landowner can charge to allow someone else to go on their land? Anything else you want the government to be bale to control like how mush a bar can charge for a beer or how much a car company can charge for a car? It's their land and they should be able to charge whatever the hell they want irregardless of what you or the government thinks they should.
I have a question. A fairly simple one: Would it make a difference if it wasn't an outfitter but instead just someone with more money? OR.... maybe not more money but just different priorities?
Please don't tell me I don't get it, as I do. Money talks plain and simple. I wonder how that conversation in the cab of the truck goes..... "wow, that's a nice buck, but it just crossed the road. For 1k more I'm sure we can kill it, what say you...sure thing, let's offer it."
I'm really not interested if what's his name shoots a 190 class deer or a 380 class bull on tv. The mass crowds do, and the monkey is fed...
The question is, what's the bigger opportunity cost for the LO and Hunter?
Used to have a honey hole in Colorado for elk. Not a high quality area mind you, but excellent elk hunting. Guy buys a piece of private land in the area and starts an outfitting business...taking clients elk hunting on public ground. Needless to say, the hunting pressure has taken considerable toll on the elk hunting experience in that area. Today, there are both new clients hunting with the outfitter and old clients now hunting the public ground on their own to compete with.
We hunt private family ground in Iowa. An outfitter leased up every piece of property surrounding the farm. There are multiple treestands on every property line and the deer know it. The deer probably have neck strain from looking up all the time. That is "if" you see them moving during daylight hours...because most movement...even during the rut...is nocturnal.
It is what it is though....
Hunting is becoming a rich mans sport. I pay big money for tags and application fees across the US. I REFUSE to pay for a guide... ITS A PRIDE THING....
I think most people "can" afford more than they think, it's all just a matter of where your money spending priorities are. For some, hunting is a lot more important than for others, and they find a way to do it, even if it means making sacrifices on other stuff they'd like to own.
Do guides and outfitters affect my opportunities? Of course they do. Locally they do everything possible to lease hunting rights from landowners. I can't get on those properties at all. Is it right? I say yes...simply because it's a landowner's right to use his property as he sees fit, and a legal business transaction is just that...legal. Shoot...I have to pay 75 cents for atmospheric air to put in my truck tire. Someone figured out that people will buy water, air, radio, tv programming, internet, hunting rights, dry cow manure and mushrooms...but you can still get them for free if you want it badly enough to put forth the effort.
In Alaska the guides and outfitters work hard to protect their industry and prevent NR hunters from accessing sheep, goats and grizzlies without employing a guide. It's an economic strategy of course, and it definitely affects my hunting as I'm coerced to pay $18k to hunt Dalls there on state or federal public lands. Imagine if Ohio required a licensed guide in order for a NR to kill a mature buck whitetail. How would that be received?
As far as guides and outfitters utilizing public land: They are able to use that land to hunt, kill and remove big game animals...a renewable resource which is presumed to belong to the state. Why can't they log a few acres of timber too, and make some money from trees...a renewable resource which is presumed to belong to the state?
Ended up where I started finding Bowhunters to hunt the property for a trespass fee which made him happy. After a couple of years we talked some more and I was able to get him to make his place Bowhunting only cutting out all the rifle hunter except a husband and wife who had been hunting there longer than myself.
This has been really good for the landowner (bringing in more money for him) and myself as I get to keep hunting there and without gun hunters the quality and quantity has been really good. All I did was what the landowner wanted so he could make more money and it has worked out great for everyone and given Bowhunters a place to hunt without gun hunting pressure.
I mostly blame it on the hunting shows and the people who buy the advertisers products.
I am certain that no one feels guilty. In no aspect of life do humans feel guilty about getting a good deal. Many brag about it on a car, house, power tool. Never seen guilt. Just as the freeloaders not feel guilt for not paying the landowners for access.
You were lucky that you got to hunt prime land for nothing or almost nothing. The landowner wasn't smart enough to know he could have charged you a good penny to make some extra cash.
Blasphemy you say! Since when is making some extra cash not a good idea?
Well you asked if I feel guilty?
NOT FOR ONE SECOND. If you had actually valued that land you would have paid for it.
Can't afford those fees? Then enjoy every minute until you lose the property and go find another good situation.
Both sides aren't wrong but no one should feel guilty at all because in America finding great situations is what it's all about.
So I sacrificed years ago and bought my own place to make memories with my family. Took many years of doing without other things to pay for it. Still have to maintain it, pay taxes, pay for/plant food plots, etc.
You would not believe the number of "friends" who ask me to hunt it and offer nothing in return - and get plumb miffed when I tell them it is for family only.
When it comes to subjects like this, there are always responses from two types of people - those who are landowners and those who are not.
Matt nailed it.
No harm in asking permission and no harm in asking for trespass fee. But when someone bids it up because they can and know they'll win is what fires people up. Same thing happens in your neighborhood when the wealthy move in and makes it tough for the "Average Joe" to buy real estate there.
Prices reflect the minimum the seller is willing to accept and the maximum the buyer is willing to pay.
However, ever year we get these threads talking about hunt costs, tag costs, guide fee's, etc... and fail to see our own desire is driving these costs and situations. I for one don't participate in any of it anymore for this reason. And, realize the craze for big bucks is what is driving it. This is why big buck management schemes are harmful to hunting's future. This is what is meant when it is said that hunting is becoming a rich man's game. So, there is no need in trying to shame the guy that might has worked a lifetime helping the landowner but, can't afford to compete monetarily for that access now.
I had this happen to me. 1900 acres of prime time deer hunting. This man cut timber for me. I had always provided him a great work environment for him to be successful. Often working weekends to ensure he had work. He offered to let me hunt his place after a couple years working together. I accepted. 5 years later he was hurt when felling a tree and, forced to be in bed for months, I helped with calving season, put up his hay, helped his log crew on the weekends run enough logs to survive, and checked on him 5-6 times a week while he was hurt. Because we were friends. However, after getting back to work for a couple years, another logger offered to lease his property at a cost I simply couldn't even fathom to afford.
I don't hold it against him but, dang it man, I would think the year he depended heavily upon me should have been worth something. Lord knows he wouldn't have kept it to profit off of if not for a few people helping him in his time of need. Oh well, life goes on. God Bless
THIS^
Cable, phone, tobacco, eating out three times a month don't make a $1200-$1500 a month land payment. Sacrifices help but, with land cost averaging $3000 to $4000 an acre, you can't buy it unless you make the bank to do so. Sacrifices are mandatory to own land in the best income bracket's. Add in life and some people don't have the option's you did.
Some of you will find out that life sometimes has it's own plans. Your health is your wealth. Be proud of what you have. You have likely earned it. But, be humble enough to realize that not everyone gets the same hand dealt to them. The guy you think buys new vehicles for the whim may travel 50,000 miles a year and, needs a dependable ride, eating healthy is expensive for a family, some things like internet and modern phone service are mandatory for making a living, etc.. You just never know what your fellow man has gone through until you have been there. God Bless men.
Have a wonderful fall and good luck to all.
I hope to buy land but the days of simply "cutting back a little bit" to be able to make the payments are LONG gone!! Wages are up just a small amount over the last couple decades but land prices and living costs are up by 10 times......makes it pretty difficult to cut back.
This is about the only era in history that the previous generations had it better than the future ones financially!
I wish a lot of things, but wishing doesn't get the meat up the mountain. The only thing that I can do is keep putting one foot in front of the other and keep my eyes peeled for a path with fewer blow downs.
Like WV commented. If you're healthy, you've got a form of wealth.
If you've got somewhere else you want to be, shoulder your load and start moving. The climb won't be any easier as the light fades.
We all need a good chuckle every now and then.
I have found that I am about 10 - 20 years behind the cost of things. Meaning 10 - 20 years ago, I couldn't afford $3,000 for a hunting trip. Now I can afford $3,000 for a hunt, but now the hunt is $6,000. I guess I will forever be begin the curve.
One of the greatest blessings with being an American hunter is access to public land with decent hunting, and the opportunity to periodically access public land with excellent hunting.
There are threats to continued use of public land. Here in Cali the libs have choked off much of what would otherwise be good public hunting land. Beware State's taking control of Federal land. The Fed's may not be the best land managers out there, but bad things happen to public access to land when States get ahold of it.
If anyone who hunts isn't a member of hunting organizations like RMEF, they are neglecting their responsibility to not only secure continued access for themselves but for future generations. RMEF has preserved and improved millions of acres. There are other organizations that exist solely for developing access to public lands. I believe that if lands are public, they should be accessible to the public. That is one minor gripe I have with the commodification of hunting - there may be millions of acres of public land locked behind a quarter mile strip of private. How much would buying a public access easement cost? Probably time to find out.
Finally, I put my money where my mouth is every year hunting out-of-state on our amazing public lands. I've never had a bad trip, even when I get skunked. Hope to be bringing the next generation on some of those hunts soon.
Another point is that if the landowner is a hunter or leaser, he/she may simply not care to sell. At any price.
