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Relearning how to shoot: question 2
Moultrie Mobile
Relearning how to shoot: question 2
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
Chasewild 22-Oct-15
Pyrannah 22-Oct-15
Zinger 22-Oct-15
greg simon 22-Oct-15
Chasewild 22-Oct-15
Ziek 22-Oct-15
greg simon 22-Oct-15
Chasewild 22-Oct-15
WapitiBob 22-Oct-15
wyobullshooter 22-Oct-15
Pyrannah 22-Oct-15
Chasewild 22-Oct-15
joehunter8301 22-Oct-15
XMan 22-Oct-15
AndyJ 22-Oct-15
x-man 22-Oct-15
HANS1 22-Oct-15
Yellowjacket 23-Oct-15
RJ Hunt 23-Oct-15
kellyharris 23-Oct-15
Bowfreak 23-Oct-15
Beendare 23-Oct-15
OTT2 23-Oct-15
wyobullshooter 23-Oct-15
Chasewild 14-Dec-15
Genesis 14-Dec-15
Copey 17-Dec-15
Chasewild 17-Dec-15
Arrowflinger 17-Dec-15
WapitiBob 17-Dec-15
Chasewild 22-Dec-15
greg simon 22-Dec-15
Tracker12 22-Dec-15
wyobullshooter 22-Dec-15
Pyrannah 22-Dec-15
Genesis 22-Dec-15
ElkNut1 22-Dec-15
Chasewild 23-Dec-15
Genesis 24-Dec-15
Chasewild 19-Jan-16
wyobullshooter 19-Jan-16
Dino 19-Jan-16
Chasewild 01-Apr-16
wyobullshooter 01-Apr-16
Chasewild 01-Apr-16
Arrowflinger 01-Apr-16
WapitiBob 01-Apr-16
x-man 02-Apr-16
Chasewild 05-Apr-16
Trophy8 05-Apr-16
Chasewild 06-Apr-16
Mad Trapper 06-Apr-16
Chasewild 09-Jun-16
bow_dude 10-Jun-16
Chasewild 10-Jun-16
Butternut40 10-Jun-16
Chasewild 30-Jun-16
Mad Trapper 30-Jun-16
wyobullshooter 30-Jun-16
WapitiBob 30-Jun-16
Pyrannah 30-Jun-16
x-man 30-Jun-16
Chasewild 01-Jul-16
Bake 01-Jul-16
wyobullshooter 01-Jul-16
Mad Trapper 05-Jul-16
WapitiBob 05-Jul-16
JLS 05-Jul-16
Dwitt2n 05-Jul-16
Chasewild 06-Jul-16
WapitiBob 06-Jul-16
Bake 06-Jul-16
Pyrannah 06-Jul-16
Chasewild 02-Aug-16
Bowfreak 02-Aug-16
huntmaster 02-Aug-16
Drop tine 02-Aug-16
From: Chasewild
22-Oct-15
In my other post, I asked what's the best method to relearn how to shoot when dealing with what some call target panic. In less than a week, I really firmed up my realization that I need a surprise release and I'm committed to that course. Likely training with a back tension release.

My follow up question applies to hunting situations. Some of the shots we get, have about a 3-5 second window to actually make the shot. For example, an elk comes in, I'm at full draw, it's an 11 yard shot, and he's ready to explode at any second, how do you deal with this situation using a tension release?

Maybe training with back tension and hunting with a finger-trigger?

Just give me your thoughts...

From: Pyrannah
22-Oct-15
you'll be fine using the tension to fire at game... i wouldnt switch back and forth

From: Zinger
22-Oct-15
Get a release that fires with either back tension or the thumb. I us a Carter Gorilla with a thumb trigger. In hunting there is NO WAY that I would want a pure back tension release.

From: greg simon
22-Oct-15
I agree with Zinger. There are some situations hunting where you DO want to shoot right now. Like an 11 yard shot on an elk. It does not take 50 yard accuracy type form to kill an elk at 11 yards so you should not use the time it would take in that situation, simply draw/aim/shoot or elk is gone.

From: Chasewild
22-Oct-15
Doesn't look like the Carter Gorilla is made any longer?

From: Ziek
22-Oct-15
"...and he's ready to explode at any second..."

You need to control that perception. The feeling that you have to rush the shot, causes more misses and bad hits than probably all other reasons combined. Take the time to take the shot. If you don't have the time, you don't have a shot. More often than not, it's not as urgent as you perceive at the time. I'm not saying to dilly dally. Just take the time it takes, without worrying about hurrying.

From: greg simon
22-Oct-15
" I'm not saying to dilly dally. Just take the time it takes, without worrying about hurrying."

Ziek got it there.

From: Chasewild
22-Oct-15
Ziek, I agree -- I've watched a good friend of mine miss a total of 5 shots in the last two seasons due to the very perception you speak of.

As a matter of fully fleshing out my problem though, I'm wondering if there are any weaknesses to the tension release in hunting situations. As far as I can tell, it's the loss of the ability to make a shot when in the red zone.

From: WapitiBob
22-Oct-15
You only lose the perceived ability to hammer the release. Pull faster or squeeze faster if you need to.

22-Oct-15
What Ziek said.

Chasewild, I was where you're at now. I had a world-class case of TP that I fought for years, 20 to be exact. I tried EVERYTHING! New bows, switching from fingers to release, switching releases, etc, etc, etc. It got so bad I quit shooting leagues and tournaments when I started bouncing arrows off the floor. Heck, there were times I wouldn't even get to full draw and I'd hammer the release. Even with all that, I still killed my animals in spite of myself, so I just dealt with it. Then I missed a slam dunk shot on a big bull. I knew right then and there I had to either face my demon or give up something that means so much to me.

I saw ads for Bernie Pellerite's book "Idiot Proof Archery", as well as the Carter Backstrap release. Although it was hell at first, I followed Bernie's program religiously. A little more than a month later, I was able to float my pin on the bullseye at 20yds, start my backtension, and let the surprise release just happen...with NO anxiety. That's the key. You have to learn to LET the release happen rather than MAKE the release happen. Wasn't long before I could do the same regardless of distance.

I used that Backstrap release exclusively for 2 1/2yrs, covering 2 seasons. In those 2 seasons, I killed my biggest P&Y elk to date, as well as a P&Y moose. Had I not developed my surprise release by following Bernie's program, I can assure you both arrows would have sailed into the next county, nowhere near their intended target. Instead, I was able to float my pin on the exact spot I wanted to hit until the release fired. Instead of HOPING that I would hit somewhere close to where I wanted, I KNEW I would hit where I wanted.

I've since transitioned back to a "normal" index finger release (Carter Like Mike), but still use back tension to fire it.

It's been 8yrs now that I've been in control of my shooting, rather than TP controlling me. I have yet to lose a shot opportunity because of a surprise release.

Is a surprise release the best option there is? Depends. For someone that doesn't have TP, maybe not under all hunting conditions. However, for someone that is fighting the TP demon, or has in the past, not only is it the best option, it's the only option. Not only do you owe it to yourself, even more importantly, you owe it to the animals you hunt.

From: Pyrannah
22-Oct-15
wyo said it really well... he also helped me make the switch...

good luck man

From: Chasewild
22-Oct-15
Wyo -- Great post. Not the least of which was this gem:

"Not only do you owe it to yourself, even more importantly, you owe it to the animals you hunt."

I'll keep you all posted on the process. Thanks for your advice.

22-Oct-15
I might be in a diff category here but I'll share my experience. I had TP really bad when I was 16-20 years old. So bad I played with the idea of giving up. I was using an Scott little goose at the time. I cured it not by switching releases but I would get on target and let my brother squeeze the trigger as he stood next to me. I had no control over the trigger so I concentrated on aiming. It took time and it worked also take ur sight off your bow and shoot at a hay bale size target. Just concentrate on good form. This takes away the "picking a spot" that is part of TP. All those things helped me.

Fast forward to last year I switched to a thumb release just to try something new. I loved it. Shot better then ever but was really hard to command a release as smooth as with my index finger release. I killed every animal last fall with it until turkey season this year. When you have the time to execute good shot form you can squeeze the release good. But when I needed to command it "now" I found myself flinching and I missed 2 birds completely that I know with my old release I woulda killed. So I got my old release back and since I have not looked back. I'll never shoot another thumb release but that's just me. Others will say they have no issue commanding a shot. I'm not one of them evidently. I thought I was cuz I could on targets but once a live animal was infront of me all bets were off. So make sure you try them all and see what works for you. You might love it you might not. I'm not telling you exactly what you should do jus sharing my experience for you to store in your head as what some have experienced. Hope that helps and good luck.

From: XMan
22-Oct-15
agree with Wyo, I only use a back tension and can shoot very quickly when I need to and the window is short.

From: AndyJ
22-Oct-15
+1 Ziek and +1Wyobullshooter

One thing you should understand is a different release will probably be helpful, but it isn't magic. You can "punch" any type of release made and if you don't learn how to work your hand you will never get rid of target panic. If you get a hinge release, which I would highly recommend, turn the moon so there is no clicker and set it really slow (this will all make sense if you get a hinge release). You won't believe how bad and how much you flinch, but if you set it slow, it will not go off. It will force you to stay at full draw even if you are trying to "punch" it. It helped me A LOT.

With regards to your current question, reread Ziek's post again and again and again until you totally reprogram your way of thinking about shot time. I would describe the perception of having to rush a shot as bad for your hunting and shooting as the perception of having to hold the pin rock solid on the bullseye. I have an issue with rushing the shot and just recently have worked hard to correct it. A buddy of mine told me to have a shot sequence when presented with a shot, if the animal leaves before the shot goes off, it wasn't meant to be, plain and simple

From: x-man
22-Oct-15
You don't NEED to have a dedicated BT release to shoot back tension. I do it with a wrist strap index finger release(Carter Two-Shot).

The key is to relax into the shot. Just the opposite of what most shooters do that end up with target panic.

Here's my shot sequence : Firm grasp around my strap [behind] the trigger as I start to draw. Once in my anchor and aiming, I'll wrap my finger around the trigger with the second knuckle on the trigger.(you'll need to shorten the strap as much as possible for this) With the pin on the spot, and keeping there(slightly floating), I'll just relax my hand/wrist/arm, kind of like pulling your wrist out of the wrist strap. Doing this while keeping proper back tension will move your entire arm/wrist/hand back far enough so that your finger sets off the trigger. Just ignore the urge to "hang on" to your wrist strap and your hand will move back more than enough to set off the release. It's exactly how a shooting machine fires.

From: HANS1
22-Oct-15
Thanks to all for posting this, I am going to get Bernies book I have been thinking along the lines of chasin wild for a while. A lot of good advice here

From: Yellowjacket
23-Oct-15

Yellowjacket's embedded Photo
Yellowjacket's embedded Photo
"Some of the shots we get, have about a 3-5 second window to actually make the shot. For example, an elk comes in, I'm at full draw, it's an 11 yard shot, and he's ready to explode at any second, how do you deal with this situation using a tension release?"

No worries about shooting at game with a back tension style release. I shot this elk last year in almost that exact scenario using a Stan Element release. Farther than 11 yards but dropped the decoy and hooked the release to the D-loop and drew as he was coming in. Held at full draw until he turned broadside. Thumb off the safety and pulled through without even thinking about it.

Throw or give away your old trigger releases and don't look back. Shoot a back tension release year round. No need to switch for hunting.

From: RJ Hunt
23-Oct-15

RJ Hunt's Link
Or just learn how to shoot a trigger with back tension. Any release, back tension, trigger (thumb and finger style) that you can manipulate to go off by your mechanics you will be able to anticipate the release. You can "punch" almost any release so you must learn around the anticipation. I train all off season with a hydraulic trigger that is a surprise release every time until about a month before hunting season then switch back to a regular trigger to hunt with. Any release you use will not fix the problem as target panic exists between your ears so you must train your brain to shoot properly. When the time comes you can get a quality shot off fast and still in proper form without thinking of it. Fix the problem and get rid of any bandaid. I will attach a link. He makes a great product and it will teach you to hold on a target. Good luck

From: kellyharris
23-Oct-15
Here is how I have helped friends, family and myself get over target panic.

1. Day one; Get 2 to 3 yards from your target draw your bow get on target 7 to 10 times and DO NOT touch your trigger just simply letoff.

2. Draw your bow back get on target and shut your eyes. Eyes closed give it a few seconds and then lay your finger on your trigger. DO NOT SHOOT UNTIL YOU CONCENTRATE on your breathing then touch the trigger and let the arrow fly. Do this 10 times.

3. Put your bow away and grab a ice cold beer and relax.

4. Day two; repeat step 2 but this time do it for 20 arrows. Then put your bow away and grab a cold beer.

5. Now your on day three. Repeat step 4 except for the beer (that comes in 30 minutes). On your 21st arrow at 3 yards pull your bow back get on target shut your eyes. Then open them and touch the trigger.

Back off at 10 yards and shoot 5 arrows then at 20 yards draw your bow back get on target DO NOT shut your eyes and shoot as many arrows as you want because your target panic will be gone.

When finished have 2 ice cold beers or six and a big steak dinner.

From: Bowfreak
23-Oct-15
Do not be concerned with not being able to get a shot off quick. You will be surprised how quick you will be able to shoot a proper shot once it is driven into the subconscious. In the event you don't get your shot off on game you simply have to look at it as I didn't have a shot.

Knowing that when a shot presents itself that you will be able to make a relaxed killing shot is much more important than worrying a out a shot that might not happen. I can't tell you how many animals I have shot since learning how to shoot properly but I can tell you that there has not been one situation where I feel my thumb release kept me from killing an animal.

When you do this and succeed at putting your pin on an animal and making a totally relaxed shot you won't even care again about this issue. You will be content to know that when a shot presents itself you will make it.

From: Beendare
23-Oct-15
If you ask the pros using back tension releases the original question they will tell you they can make their release go off if needed

From: OTT2
23-Oct-15
++1 wyobullshooter

This is exactly the same thing I HAD to do.

I too tried multiple releases. When I started using a Carter Squeeze Me I was eventually able to relax and let the pin float,and squeeze the shot off.

RJ Hunt - I think when your in the Target Panic mode you just can't tell yourself to NOT pull the trigger. If it has a trigger that can be slammed you'll do it.

You have to get your mind right, let it float, and squeeze the shot off.

I am not an expert,I just know what worked for me!!!!

23-Oct-15
One thing (perhaps the most important) that rarely gets mentioned in thread's like these. I feel confident there's one common denominator that's shared by most of those that start these threads, as well as those that respond with what helped them. And that is the overwhelming majority of those that developed TP never learned the correct way to execute a shot in the first place.

Whether it's your kids, grandkids, spouse, friend, whoever, make sure they learn the correct way to execute a shot from the very beginning. I highly suggest getting them started with a qualified coach. If that isn't possible, at least make sure they develop a surprise release. It's a lot better to prevent problems from developing in the first place, rather than trying to correct years of bad habits. If they learn the correct way from the start, chances are they'll never have to deal with "Relearning how to shoot".

From: Chasewild
14-Dec-15
Wanted to update this thread -- progress being made.

First, I bought Bernie's book. It's not a great read, and the marketing crap is a little heavy, but it's got some great insights and has stimulated positive change already.

I filmed myself shooting. Stance, draw length, grip, bow arm, draw arm, and nocking points.

1. Stance was too narrow; 2. Draw was too long; 3. Thus bow arm was too straight; 4. And draw arm was too low. 5. Also, peep was not properly lined up.

Going into the shop this week to widdle down some of the minor issues before I start building a shooting system.

More later on....

From: Genesis
14-Dec-15
What xman said......I seriously doubt anyone had target panic as bad as me.I broke it (still shoot surprise back tension to this day hunting)with a Carter index finger release.

Move to second joint on index finger and relax bow arm and then relax some more and then relax some more and then lastly just a little more until you think the bow will fly back and break your nose!

Roll shoulder a little fwd while grapping trigger with second joint (fatty part) and slowly squeeze shoulder blades while manintaining relaxation......

Tip.....quit caring where arrow hits! Relax and let the bow just go off and you will be amaze how intuitively you brain/body will get close to the bulleye why you are just a mere spectator!

Again.....Caring leads to anticipation...Stop being so responsible :)

From: Copey
17-Dec-15
Several highly accomplished bow hunters are hunting with back tension releases. Dwight schuh did for many years and Aron Snyder does now as well. The best bowhunter I know who is also a national champ at 3D shoot is hunting with a back tension release.

From: Chasewild
17-Dec-15
First lesson/shoot last night with my shop.

shortened my draw 1/2 an inch, shortened my release and put a curved trigger on it, moved my peep, and went straight to the blind bail to "see how bad things are."

Stance was good, all squared up, but holy jesus did I flinch my first shot.

As I followed his commands to begin the "motor" or shot sequence, I grew more and more impatient until I just pulled the trigger.

But by the end of 40 shots, I had a much better grip on just the process.

More later.

From: Arrowflinger
17-Dec-15
I agree with Wyoming, and Yellowjacket. I had TP very bad. I sold my Index finger release and bought a Back tension release. I shoot it year round including hunting with it. If the shot is executed properly. the release will go off in 3 to 5 seconds. The important thing is to practice shooting the release everyday until it becomes natural, and you are not anticipating the shot. If the shot is done correctly when hunting. Any shot takes a few seconds. I've shot more then a dozen animals with a recurve using a clicker. Same principle. Pull through until you hear the click. Good Luck!

From: WapitiBob
17-Dec-15
Blank bale with your eyes closed.

From: Chasewild
22-Dec-15
UPDATE

I'm about 200 shots into shooting without my sight, into a blind bail, at 3 feet, using a Scott Archery Shark release with a new finger-curved trigger, and back tension to pull the trigger.

My issue:

I can feel the trigger move with my index finger and I lose concentration. Is this something I need to work through or is it something that different release will help fix?

From: greg simon
22-Dec-15
Trigger creep is bad, lets you anticipate the shot. You do not want that. If your release trigger is adjustable try increasing trigger pull weight.

From: Tracker12
22-Dec-15
If you can feel the trigger move then you need to adjust it. I shoot a Scott Little Goose and I do not feel it move until it breaks.

22-Dec-15
If you can feel ANY trigger movement, you WILL anticipate the release. For someone fighting TP, that's a recipe for disaster. Although it's not true in many cases, it is when it comes to releases...you get what you pay for. I know I may sound like an ad for Carter, but IMO you can't find a better index-finger release than the Like Mike. There is ZERO perceived trigger movement.

Something else to keep in mind. Blind bale shooting may be a good way to get accustomed to what a properly executed shot feels like, but it's not the end all-be all. For those truly afflicted with TP, see what happens the first time you move back from 3ft to 20yds. As you get comfortable shooting at one yardage, move back a couple yards at a time until you finally reach 20yds. If at any time you start feeling uncomfortable, move back up to the shorter yardage until you feel comfortable moving back again. You need to move back in small increments so your mind accepts the change. Bernie calls it the bridge, and it's an extremely important part of the overall process. It took me about 4-5wks to get back to 20yds. After that, I was able to move back in 5yd increments to the point I was shooting under control at 40yds in a matter of a couple days. Once the weather got nice, again it only took a couple days before I was comfortably shooting much longer distances.

From: Pyrannah
22-Dec-15
I hated my scott releases.. they are too light of a trigger pull and couldn't execute the shot properly...

good luck

From: Genesis
22-Dec-15
Trigger creep can be imagined as the finger tissue is compressed.

Your caring a little too much and "concentration" may not be the best thing presently....

From: ElkNut1
22-Dec-15

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