Thanks, Andy
Do you shoot split finger or three under?
ElkNut1
Some guys who shoot oversized fletches put a little clearance channel in between the rest and the strike pad. I shoot 5" parabolic fletches and haven't ever found the need for a clearance channel.
Do some paper tuning with bare shaft vs fletched and let me know what you see. Also shoot with the cock feather in (if you're shooting 3-fletch) just for kicks. You probably won't see any difference. Some guys shoot cock feather in all the time.
Go to www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version'.
Bowmania
Find a tuning guide and start. However, first post your bow specs, your arrow choice, your brace height, string material, and the riser cut of your bow. We can get you dead on or real close before you ever start. God Bless
Here you go:
I shoot a 53#@ 28" recurve and I bet my draw is very close to 28".
7.5" brace height.
3 under-Not tillered for 3 under so nock is about 5/8" above center.
No idea about string or riser cut. I do shoot off the shelf.
Arrow is full length FMJ 400 with 100gr insert and 200 gr point.
I am a right hand shooter. I bare shaft tuned it and got fletched and unfletched hitting in the same spot with the nock a little high on the bare shafts. If I went less than 200 gr tips the arrow hit nock right (stiff spine?) 200 grs straightened it out. 300gr up front seems like a ton of weight to get a 400 shaft to fly correctly.
Thanks, Andy
Next time you come this way I'll loan you some 500s to try. You can shoot your logs through my bow that's identical to yours. We can stick some different weight tips on, too. Nothing wrong with 300 gr up front (some will say great!, some will say meh..) but the need for that indicates other issues. And like Shawn suggested, release can torque the arrow into the riser as well, in both directions.
If you have heavy enough contact to be at issue, you will see a big difference in bare shafts vs fletch at each distance. Most often contact will cause all three to say a different thing about your tune.
Cheers, Pete
Yeah Bighurt, I thought I had. Thanks to trad shooting I have a pile of worthless arrows. I'm also getting the beginning to realize you may be correct with the " all carbon" comment. I know a lot of guys that shoot FMJs in their trad setups but their is just something about them that I think hurts their flight a little.
Shawn, I've got some 500s floating around here somewhere. I'll give those a try.
Thanks for all the comments.
Personally, Id follow Jaquomo's advice. Start with a 400 full length and a 125 grain head and tune. For me, I'd have to cut just a bit, (about 2 inches) off on risers cut to center. On my Black Widow, I'd be at 29 inches von to bop to make it work. Because the riser is cut past center. I pull 28.5" So, we are close to the same.
Brace seems acceptable. Might need raised, might be just fine. If the bow is quite, you are fine.
Here is what I would do. Quite fooling with the nock point. Put it at 3/4" high for three under and tune around it. Find the bow's optimum brace. It will tell you that by the way it behaves upon release. Tune around it as well. I'd get my some 400's and tune by length and point weight. If I were to stick with that much up front, I'd go ahead and cut them 30 inches and start from there. You'll likely find your sweet spot from 29-29.5 inches von to bop. 125 upfront with standard insert, around 30-31 inches von to bop. So, start tuning full length with them.
Just make sure when you are finished that you see no arrow kick when you are done. Or, your broadhead will not fly the same as your field tips. Verify what you perceive as tuned with broadhead flight. If it is truly tuned, they will fly wobble free and hit the same as field tips.
FYI, determining riser cut isn't hard and, really something you need to be doing when you start tuning a bow. It is the biggest DEFINING variation to what arrow to start with. Lay the bow on it's side with the shelf facing the ceiling. Measure from the flat surface it is laying on to the riser cut out. Then measure the width of the bow at the upper fade. compare and see if the riser measurement is half of total thickness, less, or more. Bingo. Cut short of center means weaker arrows required. Center, bout in line with the charts. Past center requires stiffer arrows than chart recommendations. It is that easy. Also, If you stick with this log enough, you'll find knowing your string will help too. God Bless
I have a 47#@28" long bow as well. Just out of curiosity I shot the same FMJ setup we are talking about above. It shoots them like darts. I shot bare shafts, perfect. The downside is it shoots so slowly with a few beers I could be probably be persuaded to try to catch an arrow out of the air. It is laughably slow, but the arrow flight is perfect. Why? Did I just nail it on the tuning?
Second, if I was to add point weight to my current setup would I get the spine weak enough to tune correctly? I think the answer is yes. Realistically, I don't have much desire to do this because the arch on the arrow is about as much as I want to deal with right now. I would love to pick up some speed and flatten trajectory but I am just curious.
Andy, you take Jaquomo's advice. It is hard to over spine a center cut or beyond bow. You'd have to try too in order to actually do it. Bows cut short of center are quite picky of spine tolerance and, can be over spined very easily. Center cut bows are NOT.
Go to the spine chart Easton has. It says at your specs, for a center cut bow, you should be running a 400 deflection arrow from 27.5 to 30.5 inches, with a 125 grain head. A short of center bow is calling for a 600 at 27.5 inches. You can choose to believe Easton, Jaquomo, or others that say 400 deflection. Or, you can take deerman's advise. That is a pretty easy decision as far as I am concerned.
The problem with these type questions and some people, is the barrage of advise you get. Some of it is well intended but, plain out wrong. A little bit of it is spot on for you. Choose the spot on advise for a starting point. And know, riser cut is very IMPORTANT for making the determination of exactly where to start.
God Bless men.
The normal cock feather position is at 9:00 with the hen feathers at 1:00 and 5:00. I rotate the nock until the cock feather is at 12:00 and the hen feathers at 4:00 and 8:00. The 4:00 hen feather aligns better with the channel and avoids contact between the shelf and the quill of the fletching.
When you are "bare shaft" tuning, use an arrow that has the feather cut off but leave the quill attached. Compare its flight to a completely bare shaft. That will tell you if its a contact problem.
I'm just guessing here but, the reason most guys are having problems shooting a 400 out of a 53 pound, center cut, 28 inch drawn bow, is due to several things. Snap shooting causing them not to reach a full 28 inch draw, collapsing on the release, static release, simply being dishonest about their true draw length, and the STRING they choose. FWIW, I don't care what they shoot or how they shoot it but, if they can't shoot a 400 with these specs, it isn't because the charts are garbage.
Release dynamics, string type, RISER cut, brace, etc... all make for differences among archers. Suggesting an off base alternative because it works for you might not be the best. Who knows, a very short trimmed 500 might work. Nothing wrong with that at all. The important thing is too find what works. He'll have to see himself. Maybe he is like your buds on the trad gang.
When you call people out for suggesting the norm, while suggesting that odd ball alternative, you are certainly going to draw opposition. My freezer is staying full with those over spined arrows. They all shoot the line with broadheads at 50 yards. So, something isn't right with your hypothesis. So, shoot what works for you and, refrain from the soap box when others suggest the recommended shaft.
It also shoots 29" 500s with the same tip weight like rockets. Like you, many of us have been doing this a long time. Me for 50 years. (Granted, that means little because I see guys at shoots with terrible flight who have been shooting trad for decades, too. They just accept it...) I don't pay attention to spine charts or anything else on a calculator. I pay attention to arrow flight with field tips and broadheads, brace height, nock point, and paper tear signatures.
And big dead animals.
There are so many variables that what works for me may not work for another using the same arrows. On one of my recurves I replaced the leather strike plate with a piece of thin adhesive backed cloth similar to moleskin but thinner. This let me shoot the same arrows as my other two bows that were a bit stiff before the change.
I learned from Jack Howard to shoot cock feather in. He found that best when doing tests with high-speed photography. Look at any of the videos available on YouTube about archer's paradox and you'll see that when shooting from the shelf with the cock feather out the hen feather at the 4 o'clock position (when viewed from the nock end) almost always brushes the shelf. Creating a channel is not going to do anything since the feather moves between the center and outside edge of the shelf as the arrow bends on release. With the cock feather in on a properly tuned arrow there is no contact by any feathers.
The type of string will make a difference. I need a weaker spine if shooting B50 strings than I do when shooting low-stretch strings.
There are other things that come into play but this truly isn't rocket science. It just takes trial and error.
I think you would be better off with 500s and I'd definitely take Jaquomo's offer and shoot a bit with him. Sometimes it's tough to tune if you are not super consistent with form. Video tape yourself or have somebody watch and make sure you have the same amount of shaft hanging out every shot for a dozen or two shots. Lots of guys don't pull back as far as they think.
I got on the full length 400s accidentally when I was building some weighted high FOC arrows for an Australia hunt. After I got back and took the weedeater string out and put on my standard broadheads, they still shot great with just a tiny brace height tweak. Liked the combination so much that I stuck with it.
