“For too long California has interfered with the hunting of mountain lions in other states by residents of California,” said SCI President Craig Kauffman. “Back in 1990, ill-informed California voters decided it was a good idea to take the management of this predator species out of the hands of the wildlife professionals. Not only did they ban mountain lion hunting within the state, but they went further and tried to impose on other states their misguided views on mountain lion hunting. The result was a harmful and illegal ban on the importation of mountain lions hunted outside of California.”
SCI’s main claims in the case are that the import/possession ban violates the U.S. Constitution’s Commerce Clause and Equal Protection Clause. The ban both infringes on interstate commerce without serving a strong local interest and discriminates against hunters who wish to import mountain lions as compared to hunters of other non-protected wildlife. SCI filed its lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of California (Sacramento). The two defendants are the California Attorney General Kamala Harris and the Director of the Department of Fish and Wildlife Charlton Bonham."
Any updates on this?
Doug Burdin, SCI Litigation Counsel, at firstname.lastname@example.org
California’s Ban on Importation of Mountain Lion Trophies (SCI v. Harris) – Challenge to the constitutionality of a California law that bans individuals from importing and possessing trophies of mountain lions hunted outside of California. SCI claims that the California law violates the U.S. Constitution’s Commerce and Equal Protection Clauses. Status: SCI filed suit on August 6, 2014, and in response to a ruling from the Court, amended its complaint to further support our allegations. The State filed a motion to dismiss this amended complaint on June 17, 2015. SCI opposed the motion. The Court cancelled a hearing on this motion that was scheduled for September 28, 2015. We are awaiting a ruling on the motion.
I don't have it in front of me, so can't post the exact information. I think there was another cancellation of hearing subsequent to the Sept 28 indicated.
Pathetic, but good for SCI to be pushing the issue.
We are still waiting for the judge to rule on the second motion to dismiss. We hope to have that ruling in the next couple of months. Nothing has changed concerning the ban.
Doug Burdin Cell: 571-277-0266 Sent from my iPhone
These changes in policy are rarely in big chunks. Look at the antis strategy to chip away at hunting rights. These legal issues BECOME laws partially through precedents...the antis know this. A good example is how they took the ban on bear hunting from Ca to Wash and Or.
It silly to think what happens in the worlds 11th largest economy California [or close to it] is never going to affect you. I hope this liberal nonsense doesn't sweep across the east coast......but until then banding together on every sportsmans issue is the smart strategy.
I did not mention anything relative to me or any other individual. In the grand scheme of things this is not an issue that will attract the investment in time or money to address. You may disagree, but 26+ years of track record (the time that the law has been on the books) validates that.
Sportsmen got screwed on this one with no basis, but there are not enough people impacted to invest in changing it. At least there has not been in a quarter of a century, so I doubt a sugar-daddy group with money, or grass-roots organization with a passion to fight it, will pop up now.
If there was a law on the ballot to seize the guns of people in CA I think there would be enough money and support to address it, but that is not the case with whether or not a person can display a cougar in their home. Frankly there just aren't too many people relative to the 38,800,000 resident of the state who really give a crap.
If this was a big enough issue it would have been addressed.
Not sure why making a statement based purely on the role economics and support plays in the process warranted a personal attack citing apathy.
Your cute "sugar daddy" crack illustrates your lack of understanding of what SCI does to protect/promote sportsmans rights across the country....easily researched on their 'in the crosshairs' page Link is to 'what we do' SCI page.
Its one thing to be mute and not support them.......but its a different issue entirely to make derogatory cracks about it.
This is not a windmill that our advocacy groups are going to tilt at. It's just not relevant enough to enough people. Given limited resources I'm not even sure if I lived in CA and hunted cougars I would want them spending finite resources on. There are battles worth fighting and battles best not fought in deference to other battles. CA lion mounts in the home are in the small potato category and won't get any love.
that may not be fair but it is fact.
Bou, if you lived here, you'd think it was a bigger issue because it's not just hunting of cats. It affects deer, elk, and sheep hunting as well.
There's a lot of hunters in this country for whom eastern white tail hunting isn't even a blip on their radar.
This is the very definition of the chip... chip... chip away strategy. Take away the little things, where those who are effected are few. Others.... don't care, doesn't effect them.... so eventually we all lose. But these are things that can and should be rebuilt and strengthened. Take back some ground, not just some weenie defense to "hold them off" with the pessimism of "we are all going to lose this anyway... why bother...".
There are many orgs we can support if we don't personally have the time or means to lend to fight issues. NRA, P&Y, SCI, state orgs.... with enough support these orgs have done wonderful things.
These are exactly the things SCI SHOULD be fighting using the courts as our enemies use them. I think they could have a case WRT interstate commerce. That no one has chosen to fight from that angle for however many years means nothing. A good many older laws have been overturned on Constitutional grounds that have been on the books FAR longer. All it took was a few people with the heart and will to take the fight to them and win it.
Apathy and ambivalence NEVER fix anything, only justifies the decision in the mind and heart to look the other way.
I said this will not garner support in a meaningful way. period.
debate all you want what should happen, what is right, etc. that does not change reality. the reality is this is bad for us but it is delusional to think it will be addressed.....in a meaningful not superficial way..........which was the original point of the original post.
I wish we could fight every teeney weeny issue that was out there that impinged on our rights, but am I am rational enough to know that that is not how this thing we go through called life works
There are two groups, regardless of your politics you should belong to as hunters. SCI and The NRA. Period. They fight the fight.
God Bless men
Using your logic Bou...there are many wars that shouldn't have been fought and games that need not be played as we already know the outcome.
Kudos to SCI for reopening the debate. The ugly truth of lions in Ca is starting to creep out. Kids getting dragged away from a group of hikers in LA...many others having potentially deadly encounters that never make the papers. Signs at most of the TH's to watch out for lions are typical in our area.
My buddy recently got read the riot act by a Ca GW for taking a photo of the lion that killed his pet goat right on his front porch after the state trapper with hounds came in and caught it 400yds from his house. The F&G does not want this information getting out. That houndsman has killed something like 36 lions in the last few years right in that local area.
A buddy with a ranch above Vacaville said they caught 30 lions in one 5 mile long canyon bordering a huge residential population. The deer population is just starting to come back from almost nothing as these cats just wipe out the deer.
Anyone with a modicum of wildlife knowledge understands you cannot just manage for one species...but that is exactly what they are doing. The import of lions is just a silly penalty on hunters.
Yeah, maybe it is time to reopen....As mentioned above, the best defense is an offense....but its hard to play with only 1/3rd of team!
If the sportsman across america banded together instead of whining, "Some of those guys shoot a rifle....or some shoot HF animals, and instead banded together we would have one heck of a voice.
My take on SCI- I'm proud to be a member...and i'm as DIY as they get. I've been on 3 guided hunts in my lifetime...one HF shoot. I'm not going to even discuss whether guided guys are less of hunters....they are HUNTERS. I could care less if some big money guy wants to shoot HF animals....it doesn't matter, I want those guys on our side as some have 100x the power and influence of a Beendare or Bou...
I've seen guys like that chunk down $100,000 on a good cause and or leverage their business contacts getting meeting with top gov officials to help our cause.....yep, I want those guys on our side.
They didn't get to where they are in life without knowing the difference between a DIY elk and a HF ranch- they know it and we know it.
So why rub their 'sugar daddy' nose in it...unless its to make yourself feel better? The way I see it you are in...or you are part of the problem.
Never said that..........I think because it doesn't affect "a material population" the fight will not be undertaken in a truly meaningful way by those that undertake such things on a selective basis by using some risk and reward assessment on where to deploy resources and funding.
26 years have passed and nothing has been done there. I don't think it will happen now.
just because you don't like reality does not mean that reality will not happen.
SDhunter you said "This is a big 'fing deal!"
Really, for more than a quarter of a century not one iota of progress has been made to repeal CA Prop 117 so if this is the attention and results that a "big 'fing deal" gets in the hunting world I would hate to see how we fare against lesser issues that are not such big 'fing rallying points.
So if it is as you say a "big 'fing deal" nobody is treating it like one.
That's what makes this such a good opportunity. Win or loose, it is more than we have had in the recent past. I commend SCI for taking the task and would hope we all would join them in support. It is stuff like this that makes me proud to be a member. God Bless men
Unfortunately we will never be able to hunt cats again in California but our hope should be in the actual fight that SCI is taking on to allow a legally harvested Lion from another State to be allowed in a hunters trophy room. As it sits right now legally we aren't allowed to possess any part of a mountain Lion no matter what. Their is a special permit one can apply for in a Museum type situation but it is incredibly difficult to attain.
Hopefully we can at least get to a point where we can take a trophy Tom in another State and be able to enjoy it in our own home if we can provide legal documentation.
Good thread everybody. Keep fighting the good fight and Merry Christmas!!
But now, they are going to bat, again, for us hunters & I'm hoping for the best outcome possible. All hunters, no matter where they are from or what they hunt, should pay attention & support this issue!
If California would have banned the importation of all Wild Sheep into the state, SCI & many other organizations would have been in the fight ASAP! This lawsuit means a lot to every hunter in the country! David
"Not enough of an issue for anyone to invest the time or money in changing."
One of these statements denies the other.
But something has happened. SCI has filed a suit. That's something.
You guys are being a little hard on Bou. He's just playing Devil's Advocate and explaining it as he sees it. No reason to jump down his throat just cause you don't agree with him.
The legal challenge at hand is importing perfectly legally taken trophies from other states into CA for personal possession. That makes it an interstate commerce issue. That the vast majority were bought and paid for and receipts shown in evidence MAKES it commerce. (Another reason "hunting should not be commercial" is a bad position) The way I understand it, states cannot ban products or personal property from other states without showing cause, undue harm, etc. And that bar is pretty high, seeing the precedents set in cases you would think were a stretch to put it kindly.
That these trophies ALL will have been certified legally taken in another state or even federal import permits given from other countries blows their argument of cover for the possession of illegally taken trophies out of the water. There are and can be legal papers to prove so. They certainly have no evidence of any kind of endangered population. The state itself kills a good many due to OVER population.
Not uncommon for these challenges to be stonewalled and appealed until they reach the high courts, sometimes the highest courts in the land. That is how it is done, honestly this is taking the path that many if not most Constitutional challenges must take.
This is NOT being taken on as an issue of reopening a legal sport hunt of mountain lions in CA. Only that you can have legal possession of a trophy legally taken in another state and brought home for personal use. But it is a step. It is taking back some battleground that had been lost.
If this is won.... on to the next... ya never know if you give up and never try....
The fact that there is a case that was filed that is currently in front of a judge directly refutes the assertion that it is "not enough of an issue for anyone to invest the time or money in changing".
It's not that we disagree with him, it is the facts that disagree with him.
no need to state why or why not. Just "YES" if we have any takers on that position.
Reality, Eventually SCI and whoever joins them will get the importation situation fixed on grounds of Interstate Commerce. It will be a LONG road and more than likely be dragged out kicked and passed along until the 9Th circuit rules on it.
We will never sport hunt Lions in CA again. The political climate here just won't allow it.
BTW- I have heard that if you try to declare a Mountain Lion at the agg station no one will touch it. No arrest, and everyone just looks the other way because they do not want to be involved in trying to prosecute the law. BUT it is still not legal, and Im not suggesting anyone try it.
Remember, it was one of our pro hunting F&G commission members that resigned over killing a lion in Idaho and was replaced with a non hunter. Its a mess. I know for a fact SCI is lobbying hard to change that at the commission level.
I do think there is a chink in the Antis armor with lions. The F&G knows there is huge problem. Its only a matter of time until someones kid gets completely eaten out on a trail and the antis chant of, "Its their park, we are just visiting" will go unheeded by the public.
Its for this reason SCI is continuing to push the issue in court. When all of the info comes out they can say, "We have been trying to tell you for years"
Personally I think an additional effort should be directed a little differently and I'm working on that...put it this way...if the truth of what a problem these lions are ever comes out....the tide will change.
I did fix my problem though. I moved across the state line to AZ and have reunited with my lion. You can also buy lion tags over the counter here... imagine that... Ed F
Keep up the good fight Bruce and others!
This is about personal possession of legally taken trophies, meat..... bringing products from other states and countries, across state lines.
And it effects not only CA residents but guides and outfitters, F&G depts and other logistic markets in other states, countries even, where cat hunts are perfectly legal.
As mentioned above, this is NOT a state wildlife management, game commission or F&G matter. It is a Constitutional matter, Constitutional rights. My guess is it is being stonewalled because it very much has a legal point and has grounds to be appealed to higher courts, all the way to the top actually.
nobody woke up recently and said "By Joe I can't have a legally taken cougar part in my domicile"
Did people not address this before today, is this a new approach to an old injustice.
I know that for the past several years there has been a movement towards the challenge that SCI is currently working on based on Interstate Commerce.
Prior to that I am not aware of anything filled directly addressing importation alone which is the portion of the law that is patently unconstitutional.
.....of course its not all about one small issue in one corner of the continent....its about stopping the antis in their tracks.
I know guys like Wyliecoyote have devoted significant time and effort to fighting for sportsman...thanks Joe!
I think he would agree, the fight would be a lot easier if we all participated a little bit.
Mine tried to talk Coach out of it...... =D
Congrats on 51.... that's a long time. I'll have 40 in, um, sometime next year....
There are 3 national organizations that every Hunter should be a member of because these three groups are doing the most to protect what we all love to do. NRA,SCI and USSA.
I agree 100%. It's unfortunate that we have to spend a portion of our hunting budget on organizations with enough clout and balls to stand up for our rights legally and fight these battles in the courts. But it is the reality of hunting in the 21st century and will continue. I never felt the need to join any of these organizations until several years ago. Now, I see the importance and realize that, without them, my money spent on other organizations might just end up being spent on habitat that I might never be able to enjoy because the anti's have turned it all into game preserves by eliminating hunting altogether. I would encourage everyone to take a hard look at what these organizations do for preservation of our hunting heritage and seriously consider at least becoming a member, if not donating more like I do. If every hunter was a member of these organizations, the money that they would have to fight these battles would be extremely helpful and I see it as the least I can do since I'm not able to show up on the Capital steps and protest every piece of absurd legislation like the loser anti's do.