Mineral Supplements
Whitetail Deer
I would like to start putting out a mineral supplement which would promote antler growth. Any suggestions?
Ive been happy with Lucky Buck. About $16 for a 2 gal pail. Bucks hit it hard through the spring and summer but not much action from the boys after that. Does/fawns seem to hit it more in the fall/winter/ early spring. Assuming that it has a alot to do with mineral requirements changing throughout the year. Also have used Trophy Rocks and the deer seem to like that as well. Good luck!
Fuzz
Search kelly harris he has a great recipe that works awesome. Just got mine out yesterday
I just ordered some from nutritionist. He's a site sponser here. His mix looks good and I'll be putting it out shortly along with a camera at each site.
Nutrionist....you out there today?
Mark
Look up Grandpa Ray's Outdoors. He goes by nutritionist on bowsite. By far the most complete on the market.
Have any of you noticed any improvement in the quality of animals taken after you've used minerals? I'm thinking about trying some but they are expensive as you know and I"m not sold on the benefit derived from them.
Keef, I don't know if benefits are measurable in our scenarios. You would be guessing at the least on wild deer, but they are minerals after all, and not just some kind of deer junk food. I put them out to benefit the deer, and keep up with antler growth through trail cams. I judge the quality of the minerals by how hard the deer hit them, and I know that's not scientific, but it's the best yardstick I have.
I buy 50lb bags of general mineral from tractor supply. About $15.00. Deer eat it daily from now to early fall. Net rack size has gone up drastically since I've been using it. Very similar to lucky buck but way cheaper.
My suggestion is have a full understanding that this a feel good product that acts as an "alternate source" of mineral but nothing that wouldn't be taken in naturally and adjust expectations accordingly.
Good tool for photos though while carrying the risk of disease spread.
Keef, I think its helping. I have deer every day hitting it and this will be year e so we will see how much change it will be from last year to this year. I have one buck that grew a lot of crazy little hand like points last year, excited to see how he turns out this year. My young deer have some good mass, something that I am not used to seeing that young.
Deer are already hitting mineral every day. Some people wait until june but now is the time I think to help replace lost minerals of winter and rut. My 2 cents.
lucky buck is made by a client and it's not a mineral supplement but an attractant...
most deer minerals on the market are attractants and give less than 10% of the daly requirement for the trace minerals and vitamins. Many have the improper ratios of traces and are low in bio availability.
Yes, i do challenge people to find a more bioavailable mineral on the market, as i've never formulated one or seen one. Yes, i formulate minerals for other nutritionists and companies and GRANDPA RAY'S i'll put up against any.
So, if people don't want to buy mine...i can give you a list of those who are better than most. The big name brands like antler king, whitetail institute, big and j, maxirack and all those are poor. Here is a comparison sheet to peek at.
Not sure how else to say this but i don't even formulate beef, goat, sheep or non lactating dairy cow minerals with anywhere near as poor nutrition as is in most deer minerals on the market. It's a huge market and a huge money maker for those who put a fancy name and a deer on a bag.
To get into the big box stores you have to make it cheap....i turn down the big box stores as i can't honestly devalue nutrition.
Are any of these products out there actually proven to grow larger antlers?
Nutritionist There is no dealer near me so, how much is shipping for your 25 lb bag?
Purina dealers are usually not far apart. I think they have done their homework on their "Antler Max" products. I use both blocks and pellets of it.
coccon. I have an online store now and also am running a special on 4- 8lb bags in a bundle. The cost delivered anywhere in the US is $44. I am setting dealers up across the US and i hope in the next 12 months to have 1-2 dealers in every major deer state.
I also am coming out with a deer block that nothing in the US is anywhere close to the nutrition in it. It will hit stores in the next couple weeks.
Antler max is typically poor and here is the specs Calcium (Ca)MIN 9.00% Calcium (Ca)MAX 10.80% Phosphorus (P)MIN 5.00% Salt (NaCl)MIN 9.00% Salt (NaCl)MAX 10.80% Potassium MIN 0.75% Vitamin A MIN 50000 IU/LB Vitamin D3 MIN 5000 IU/LB Vitamin E MIN 100 IU/LB Selenium (Se) MIN 3 PPM ZINC (ZN)180 PPM Sodium (Na) MAX4.75% Magnesium (Mg) MIN 1.00 % Copper (Cu)MIN 600 PPM
Deer need these specs per head per day in their diet zinc 40-80 ppm manganese 40-80 ppm copper 10-20 ppm selenium .30 ppm as much calcium and phosphorous as you can get into them as antlers are 22% calcium and 11% phosphorous
so lets say a deer consumes 1 oz/hd/day of a mineral with 180 ppm of zinc, 600 ppm copper and 3 ppm selenium, They are getting about 2.8 ppm/day zinc, 9.3 ppm copper and .04 ppm selenium. That is only 5% of their daily requirement of zinc, 13% their requirement of selenium and close to their requirement of copper.
Most of these average to below average deer minerals if one formulated them with the levels that are included, your looking at .20 per pound...This is why most deer minerals don't have much Vitamin E and the highly available trace minerals in it. The amount of phosphorous is the next most expensive ingredient, yet it is perhaps the most important. In every 25 lb bag of deer mineral, for every 1% more phosphorous over 5% it costs them .40 per 25 lb bag to increase the level. So if they had a 7% phosphorous deer mineral vs 5, thats .80 a bag more expense.
If a deer mineral had 50 units of Vitamin E per lb instead of 500, it's .50 a bag cheaper to do that as well. So the difference between the poor nutrition deer minerals and an elite one like mine is it cost them only 1/2 as much money per bag to make it up as i do and yet they sell it for the same price or more. Ponder that one.....
John, So the deer block will contain the same minerals and mineral content as the bagged minerals?
Do you have a price for the deer block yet?
Mark
the formulas basically the same minus the yeast and probiotics. I took them out as people will not put out blocks as often as loose mineral and to be honest, the weather will leave the probiotics and yeast "dead". So the same mineral and flavors will be in the block. It should be done and shipped any day now. The company making the product for me is verrrrryyyy reputable and it's an actual high end mineral block.
Most blocks on the market either are energy/protein blocks or are more of a salt lick. What i have in mine is high end minerals with no fillers and the correct amount of salt for maximum consumption.
I am working on a couple other products for a couple hunting shows on the outdoor channel and pursuit channel. I came across another "trick" that i need to test out for another year before i release it.
The 20 lb blocks will retail at $20. It's a tad more than the loose mineral but the advantage will be less trips to refresh product and potentially longer consumption times for those who want to capture more deer on their trail cameras.
Does anyone have any good links to any studies/literature regarding benefits of supplements? I have always been told supplements have very negligible effects on free ranging deer. I mainly just use them for trail cameras, but would like to see what data is out there.
Most deer minerals have very little nutrition value in the market. Many have less than 10% as much nutrition as what needs to be in there.
I attached a couple recent deer mineral topics i blogged about.
Data in the deer industry is very very low compared to the dairy and beef industry. I have a project going on that will give people more of a feel for how forages REALLY test out and how various things one can do to give maximum nutrition per acre for those who aren't using deer minerals.
That being said....the blog should educate people on what you would get out of a deer mineral and how it equates to a daily diet.
http://www.grandparayoutdoors.com/#!Deer-Mineral-202/vdmi3/56d49f480cf20d226f18a412
I just started using nutritionist's deer mineral about a month ago. Prior to that I have used trophy rock and some home made stuff. Some of the prior uses were hit by deer and other times they were completely ignoring it. I put out nutritionist's mineral and within a week the deer were hitting it. I just walked back to check it 2 days ago and the deer seem to be hammering it. I am going to go add some more tomorrow and will put up a trail camera to catch them in the act.
John, have you any dealers in Texas yet ? Tractor Supply would be a good one as there is one in almost every small ( 10,000 pop. ) town. Don't know if you could make that happen, but it would make your product much more accessible.
I'm on my second year using FRM (Flint River Mills). Just put some out 2 weeks ago. $13.75/25lbs bag at the feed store. Just have to wait and see if there's any difference from last year.
In the state of Minnesota it is illegal to use a salt/mineral product that contains any type of attractant food product(grain,fruit etc.)or sugar derivative. Most deer and farm minerals contain these and are not legal. You need to read the ingredients closely!
I always buy 50 lbs. Bag of dicalcium phosphate, 50 lbs. Bag of trace mineral salt, bag of powdered molasses I dig a hole 3 ft. Wide about 18 inches deep.
I chop up the dirt really good shovel in the ingredients with dirt at 1 shovel full at a time. I mix it up really good and keep doing it until hole is filled back up.
There use to be a guy on here who was a biologist who went by Blue Buck. He told me that 98% of content for deer antler was calcium.
Apparently di-calcium phosphate also really helps with lactation in hoofed animals.
We have put them out and skipped putting them out for several years. We noticed big difference in rack size when we do put them out.
LEAVE THE DEER ALONE!!!!!
just sayin..
that mineral posted by swamp buck is IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE AND GUARANTEE at that level
it takes 380 pounds of monocal to get to the 8% phosphorous. It has 430 pounds of salt. You need 18 lbs of magox to get to the magnesium level. 10 pounds of sulfur 4.5 lbs of zinc oxide etc etc on the traces and all youd have room for is 152 lbs of calcium which would only give one
12% calcium in the formula
I see stuff like this all the time and this product would flunk a state test.
At last weekends Wisconsin deer and turkey expo i saw stuff as bad and it drives me wild. I am a licenses feed tagger and i have all my products I formulate for any company approved by the state. The wildlife industry is like the wild west where people are doing whatever they want and getting away with poor nutrition and illegal products and tags.....
sorry of i am on a soapbox but this is why i started grandpa ray outdoors.
last year I used wild game innovations apple crush in mineral and salt block version and it turned out great
I have a dealer in the eau claire area ...they just need to br stocked up on products. It is the 600 club in cornell. I have new dealers coming on board in canton ohio, northern illinois.
For those who have met me and know me, i do not gamble and i do not make any claims that i can't back up. I just posted a you tube video by a happy hunting show personality.
If there was a world series of deer mineral consumption, i'd win 90% of the time.
I also know there is no deer mineral on the market that is anywhere close to the palatability and nutrition profile of mine but there is one company in wisconsin who is decent as they are the only company that i know of that uses the same monocalcium that i do. I also have a really smart new friend in Michigan who sells a really great deer mineral.
$20 PER 50 LBS is mine and it has 20....yes 20 times the bioavailable zinc and manganese of many of the deer minerals some of you use. It isn't dusty....
Wanna know a hint and secret.....i use it on all the horse feeds, deer feeds, chicken feeds, goat feeds, dairy feeds that i formulate for any company that i formulate for. Anyone who uses a product with this flavor base in it, if you go buy some cheap big box store feed, the animals won't eat it very well once you get on the "Flavor base". So please do not use any of my deer mineral, deer attractants or deer feeds if you plan on using other products as it wont work well.
Ok ok still don't want to buy my deer minerals and you have your own ideas. Here is what i am releasing this week, no one but the people on bowsite know this yet...
I use to sell my deer base and i am bringing it back to my website and the dealer chain but this time i will have my "ultimate flavor. cherry flavor and green apple flavor" I will sell 2.5 lb bags for $4.50 per lb and you mix one 2.5 lb bag to make up 25 lbs of deer mineral. You can add it to monocal, salt and calcium or you can buy some cheap big box store free choice mineral and spike it with this and you will be a happy camper.
APPLE CRUSH ISN'T A MINERAL...most of the products out there are attractant not fortified mineral supplements or diet balancers.....
STILL not convinced? Send me your formula you want made up and i'll make a custom for you. Tell me if you want to spend $10 per bag, $15 per bag or 20 per bag. My $20 deer mineral i spend 2x the amount of whats in the bag than pretty much every deer mineral on the market and they sell theirs for $25-$35 dollars...Yep, most cost about .16-.20 per lb to get made up.....
Wheewwwww, hope i gave you all food for thought
I don't sell the stuff just use it. Just posted the ingredients for comparison purposes. I would think that it would be false advertising if they are posting the ingredients on their bags and site with a guarantee. The company has been in the feed business for 90 years. Can someone explain the mixing process? Wouldn't you mix everything in large quantities to get the desired results your after, then bag it up 10,25,50lbs bags? I would most likely use nutritionists mix if there was a dealer near me.
In my state, the hunting regulations state the following.....
It is unlawful to:
Make, set or use a salt lick on land inhabited by deer or bear.
...Based on the fact that EVERY mineral supplement listed above contains a significant amount of salt, are hunters in New York state precluded from using any supplements?
No mention is made of whether the salt has to be in block form, as most people envision a "lick"....
I am wondering if there is a legal way (in NYS), to supplement antler growth with minerals. It doesn't imply that they can be used in the non-hunting part of the year....it doesn't imply that a lick is in block form. The way I read it seems to forbid the use of salt, period.
Just wondering if others have reached the same conclusion....?
thanks for reminding me , I will hit tractor supply tomorrow
there are things that you don't want in any mineral for deer or ruminants.
dust, many minerals are not using dust control on their calcium and monocalciums because of price
magnesium sulfate too little or too much salt ureas ammonium sulfate or ammonium chloride huge tip....there is a very big different in mineral that contains zero soy oil, 10 lbs per ton of soy oil and 20 pounds per ton of soy oil...
Hello all! I registered to inform that selenium can be deadly to deer. Too much can kill them! The amounts shown in all of the product comparisons can be deadly!
Search google for selenium deer dangers and you can read numerous articles about the dangers of selenium.
You might want to check out RACKOLOGY at www.rackology.org. There is actual science behind this product and specially formulated just for deer. There are a lot of people having awesome results from this product!
The link doesn't work for the rackology link. I went on the web and looked at their site. Sounds good, but I would be interested in seeing an analysis to compare to nutritionist's mix. I always think it's a red flag when companies are focusing on or promoting antlers as part of their marketing. In my mind the focus should be on supplementing what deer aren't getting from their forage base to make them as healthy as possible.
Sorry computer has been down. Send me a PM for 600 club information in Cornell. My brother, nephews and I will help you all we can. We just started up working with John this past spring, and establishing some contacts in the area. Very happy so far with the products we and others have used. Call us let us know what you want and we can get together. Need to call ahead we operate primarily out of Jerry, my brothers 600 Club taxidermy at his home south of Cornell on our property. Trax sent you a PM.
Yeah, the logo on that rackology immediately means there is ZERO chance im researchin whats in it, let alone buyin it. I do however realize that they are goin directly for the ppl on the other end of the spectrum, which way outnumbers the ppl like me....
Go to Grandpa Rays and be done with it.....
Well I am sure this may stir some things up, which is not my goal. I am humbly coming on the scene so to speak to hopefully compliment the already existing knowledge on this site. A little background, I have a Master's in Biology, with my focus on Cervidae (deer) and deer nutrition, I also teach 7-12 science. I am not here though to toot my own horn. There are many products on the market to choose from, and some of them are decent and some are fairly good in their own right. When I formulated RACKOLOGY the last thing that I was concerned with was antler size, in fact any product claiming to grow giant bucks are stretching it. Any product can only aid their genetic potential. My concern was overall deer herd nutrition. What most people do not realize is that you could have 100% of every mineral... but if certain minerals are not in the correct ratio with other minerals, absorption does not take place as efficiently, likewise there are other vitamins and minerals that must be present in order for the minerals... with the correct ratio... to even be absorbed properly, so it gets a little more complicated... To tell you the truth, when I had concluded many rounds of research on what deer need, I decided to start looking for a product that had what I was looking for. I will say there are not many, but I found a few decent products out there in their own right, as in they had good minerals and ratios possibly, and some that had the vitamins, some had appropriate protein..., some are good attractants, but everywhere I turned I kept finding the same thing. You had to buy more than one product to get everything deer needed and what I wanted. I wanted everything in one item/bag if you will. Now I know the next thing I will be told I am sure is that is not possible. It is, the deer do not need 100% quantity of any nutrient at one time. If you put out straight minerals you would find that deer hit the sight when they are lacking, and get a concentrated dose and then leave for a few days unless they are coming back daily because of the high salt content. It is good to have a good mineral sight for non-frequenting deer, but it is better for the deer to get their supplements daily and on an even spectrum rather than loading up every few days at high concentrations, Humans don't take handfuls of vitamins each day (well maybe some do), they take their daily vitamin... each day. So I wanted something that could accomplish an even keel for vitamins, minerals, protein... each day at optimum amounts for efficient usage without waste. There are also optimum feeding times of the year when deer really need the nutrition more so than other times of the year... (another topic). Also I wanted everything that could be CHELATED TO BE CHELATED. This simply put is the nutrient being in the most absorbable state. I have been told by many in the industry that we could make MORE MONEY by separating the components, but that is not what I came up with RACKOLOGY for! It is less expensive for the consumer and more advantageous for the deer to buy everything ALL in ONE BAG. By the way our logo has the DNA double helix to signify that it can maximize a deer's GENETIC potential for everything from milking, fawn growth, reproduction, herd health.... and yes antlers by default of proper nutrition. I am not here to tell you to just go out and buy Rackology... there are other good products, I just wanted to give people a choice as to being able to get everything in on bag instead of numerous, with the highest quality materials I could get, that is all. Some circumstances my require the products to be separated and that is fine. I have frequented bowsite as well as others for a number of years but never commented... as I mainly like to sit back and research (that is what I do well) and see what others think about all the topics I am interested in, but not join in as I am mainly interested in learning and most people don't need my 2 cents. I hope I haven't upset anyone over my post, and my intentions are not to step on any toes, but just to help shed a little more light on this topic of deer nutrition.
My take is...
A deer needs 40-80 ppm zinc 40-80 ppm manganese 10-20 ppm copper 40-50 ppm iron .30 ppm selenium .40% salt
as much calcium and phosphorous as you can get into their body. Excess calcium will be flushed through the system. You need a 4-1 ratio of zinc to copper.
There is a reason progressive dairy and deer farmers take blood samples and look at zinc and copper along with calcium, magnesium, p and k.
Oxides are the least bio available, then sulfates, then proteinates, then polysaccharides.
The worst mineral I ever formulated for any company is better than 95% of the deer minerals on the market. I may have formulated 100,000 diets and products in my life but here is where people can figure out for themselves what is quality.
take a tag and look at it. Now get out your calculator. Let's say your mineral a deer will actually eat every other day. Let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say they consume 1 oz per head. Let's also figure a 150 lb deer eating 4.5 lbs of dry matter/head/day Now let's work through the math.
example tag Calcium 16-20% calcium phosphrous 7% magnesium 1.2% Zinc 3000 ppm Manganese 3000 ppm copper 750 ppm selenium 20 ppm Vitamin A 140,000 IU/LB Vitamin D 40,000 IU/LB Vitamin E 500 IU/LB
if you the deer eats 1 oz (.0625 lbs) x 3000 ppm zinc you get 187.5 ppm zn /4.5 lbs dry matter =41.66 ppm zinc. That just meets a deers daily requirements. Now do the same for the other trace minerals.
Lastly, pick up a tag and look and see how many have specs like the 1 I provided above. Then look and see if they are using oxides, sulfates or chelated trace minerals.
LASTLY. is the deer mineral weather proof and does it have 15-25 % salt? Does it have mineral oil on it? Does it have flavors that are natural to deer and ruminants?
So now I just used a lot of words and even though I sell what no 1 in the industry sells and it's way better than anything else out there.....I hate selling deer mineral. I'd rather people learn from me how to get their food plot program balances so the deer get what they need through the forages. When my clients see their animals hitting free choice mineral that either means I need to rebalance their animals diets or there was a feed change. If you have a balanced diet, there should be very little free choicing of minerals.
We used kellyharris' recipe last year. I got a 150" 8 and Dad got a 160"+ 10 off of the 2 properties we used these on. I couldn't find the dicalcium and used monocalcium. Kelly said that next time, find the dicalcium. The guy at the feed store said they were very similar but they are not, per Kelly.
I have been using #10 Redman's salt. I believe it has a lot of the trace minerals in it and seems like it was recommended on this site at some time in the past. 50 lb. bag for $22 sold at a local organic store.
I just found this available to me at my local feed shop. So far this is the best I have found in CT. I would love to be able to try the stuff from Nutritionist but the shipping fees are crazy. The numbers look pretty good.
I also have the 2nd however comparing numbers i may mix it in since it has a high salt content, which should increase the overall salt content and add cobalt. Any chance you mind weighing in on this nutriotionist? Amounts would be awesome as well.
Those of you out wset remember that copper is toxic to bighorn sheep. We use mineral for all stock, deer utilize it well and it has no added copper. Made at a local feed mill and ratios are ok for deer.
I've been using mineral from the local feed store for years, with varying success, but I'm going with Grandpa Ray's stuff this year. It's not that much more expensive and I think he knows what he's talking about.
I have a degree in Animal Science and was in Dairy business for 30 years . John the " nutritionist " is spot on from what I know . Not sure he said it on here , but there is a huge difference in the quality of ingredients used in mineral. Some of the cheaper ingredients are bitter and tast bad to animals so it lowers consumption on these products . I have not used his products but would if I could find it here in Tennessee. I look at mineral tags all the time and he is correct most are terrible. Along with good mineral supplements if you really want to help rack size on your deer heard and you are planting food plots you need to double what the lime and phosphate recommendations that come on your soil sample. The soil sample is telling you what is needed for the plant not what is need for the animal that is eating the plant . If you will put the maximum you can above soil sample recommendations you will be amazed at what your heard will do if you have enough volume of feed for them .
If you want to see the difference. Take one field and plant half on soil sample recommendations and the other half and with maximum you are aloud to and see which half the deer feed on most .
Silverado, that stuff from Tractor Supply looks awesome and I have one in town here in Idaho. I agree that the other stuff is not affordable, especially since moose and elk consume 75% of it. Cool
Deer and animals in general do not like anything dusty. Particle size of minerals is an overlooked consideration in any free choice mineral. Not all calciums, monocalcium phosphates and dicalcium phosphates are created equally. I recommend and use b and b premium monocalcium. They purify it by extracting iron and aluminum out of it. The end result is a 23% calcium and 23% phosphorous product. That also means more room in my formulas for extra nutrients. No matter if i'm formulating deer minerals for companies, goat, sheep, horse or cattle, the results are as expected. Another overlooked result is if i create a 7% phosphrous deer mineral it really is equivalent to 9.1% if your talking bioavailability.
Here is some other deer mineral talking points. Most deer minerals on the market are not naturally flavored. They might draw deer in short term but they will consume way more minerals on a consistent basis if you use more earthy flavors.
Another trick is the correct amount of dust control (mineral oil). You also do not want to use too much wheat midds, soy hulls, distillers grains or other byproducts as they get mushy and become less palatable when it rains.
I picked up some more of your mineral when I was in Wisconsin last week John. The guy at the feed mill said you've added some additional garlic to help repel flies somewhat. I got in my van the next morning and it smelled like an Italian restaurant in there! But no flies :-)
The garlic is a natural wormer and helps keep flies off the deers back. I use 5 lbs per ton of deer pellets and other supplements for summer months. I also included 4% sulfur in the mineral. That is what we have done for many years for free choice cattle minerals. The sulfur also helps convert nitrogen, giving deer better protein utilization. So, REPELX is incredible on many levels. I have a client who is reporting his deer pounding 1 bag of that a day.
