Contributors to this thread:
Huntcell 's Link
documented wild of jaguar in Az
Rare footage of the only documented wild jaguar living in the US
They're cool animals. Very beautiful.
It's interesting that they can expand in from Mexico which has basically zero tree-hugger control of govt. A place where wholesale exploitation of natural resources is the norm.
Interesting he has so much black...
Curious to know if his father was the jag F&G officials accidently killed by tranquilizer overdose while trying to capture a couple years ago. Am sure they have that cats DNA...
Bet there is more than just one in the wild in the US...
Pretty cool. Coues hunter's watch ur back
I'm sure there's quite a few running around. Where's there one there's more:
Ermine, I agree. I have no doubts there are several running around. Where this one is filmed is quite a ways north of the border.
I wonder if they can cross breed with mountain lions.
Justin is correct. I've seen pics from a buddy of more then one down there that have been treed by lion hunter's dogs. Pics were amazing to see.
Wow. Looks a little more viscous than a mountain lion!
And they, the people that took the pictures, not the game and fish, want to use the Jag to stop the developement of a mine.
I think you need to read between the lines on this Jaguar in the media thing. Those cats have been down in that area for as long as anyone can remember. Houndsmen have been treeing those things as long as I can remember. I even heard that Game and Fish have transmitters on some. The media has already given the cat a name. Get real! As I see it the media is priming the propaganda pump on this deal. Word is that there is a copper mining operation that wants to start up in that region. The environmentels that oppose mining will be sure to play the endangered species card to have there way if push comes to shove.
Yeah, but that copper mill will be dug out of public hunting, "our" National Forest ground... We as hunters will also loose...
They are one hell of a predator....when you're stalking gators for food, you're near the top of the food chain!!
Hmmm for a group named Conservation Catalyst they sure sound more like a no hunting crowd and not so much a wise use conservation group.
It is the Biological Diversity Center based out of Tucson. They are everyone whom are a consumptive user of the public lands, (hunters, loggers, miners, ranchers) very worst enemy. They are perhaps the most successful big monied radical environmental organization in the US, in changing the way our public lands are used. They want to stop hunting and turn back the clock and let all the free roaming predators control the ecosystem. The BDC is already planning on bringing back the Grizzly to the SW and other parts of the west. They haven't got us off with the wolf so they are promoting the jaguar and grizzly to finish their agenda.
They are basically the Wildlands Project to remove every man, woman and child from the rural areas, making wilderness areas off limits to any human activity and very limited human activity in the corridor areas. They are pushing for Jaguar Critical Habitat (very restrictive land uses)for most of southern AZ and NM. The Sky Islands as they call it, is alarmingly taking place right before our eyes.
The very few jaguar in the US are in their very northern most part of their habitat and by all studies there are no breeding pairs in the US. The jaguar's main habitat is more of a wet lands type habitat further down in Mexico and Central America.
The BDC is every public lands user's (hunter) worst nightmare.
Jake, that was incredible, thanks.
I am not a tree hugger hippie and I am against the copper mine. There are a lot of none tree huger hippies against it. These cats can travel up to 600 miles their range is huge so more than likely there are more crossing the border. They are incredible animals i have friends that have seen them, they are more aggressive than mt lions. If the Cougar keeps the mine from happing than its a win in my book. But then the fight becomes of keeping the land open for recreational use and public use. I live 40 min north of where the cougar and mine are and its a common hunting area for me sometimes. There is also another large mine going in 45 miles east of there and that is past the point of fighting.
I know of a few guys that caught them hunting lions, they are no joke on dogs.
My budy met a guy one time whose job was to work the southern U S border and keep Jaguars from expanding North. Undoubtedly there are enough to keep him employed.
If you want to learn about an incredible hunter....do a search for Alexander "Sasha" Siemel, also called "Tigrero". He killed a LOT of jaguars.....with nothing but a spear.....
Medicinemann-I saw a very old (probably 8mm) film of this guy when I was younger. He would chase the Jag on a horse as much as possible & then go after on foot & the Jag. would wait for him at the edge of a clearing in the underbrush. When he entered the opening with his spear the Jag attacked him & he impaled the jag on his spear (looked like 6' + big head). They said this was how he did most of them. Bowbender77-agree on your post... Nothing new. Been there for years.
I also observed a very dark phased jaguar just a mile or so from that contraversal open pit mine they intend to dig back in the early 90s while bow hunting deer and pigs. The sad part is the proposed mine will destroy some of the best coues wt habitat for miles around. It was a special place that I used to hunt and I have some great memories of how it used to be. Also can concur that the last documented female jaguar in AZ was in fact killed in 1963 by a deer hunter in Unit 1 in the White Mts southwest of Big lake. It was slinking through some thick ferns and he thought it was a bobcat from his vantage. My buddy up there knows him well and has seen the hide in his home on the wall. At the time they (AZGF) let him keep it. There's Jaguars on occasion in most of the southern AZ Mt. From time to time we get sightings like these. Nothing new here, but as a long shot environmentalists are hoping to use this evidence as leverage against the proposed Rosemount mine in the Santa Rita Mts. Im biased but a big part of me wants it to remain wild and available to hunters.
Yeah Sasha Siemel was an incredible houndsman and hunter. He was a bounty hunter for ranchers in South America for years. His total jaguar count is over 300 and at least 31 of those were with the spear alone. Many were shot with his longbow and also many were taken with a Winchester if I remember correctly. An absolutely fascinating individual to be sure!
X2 on BDC
...and we all know they're stocking jaguars from black helicopters at night, but the wildlife guys just deny it...but my brother-in-law, he seen it.
Oh, wait, that's mountain lions in Kansas. :-)
Jaguars actually had a pretty wide range historically, as far east as southern Louisiana and as far west as a small part of California. Neat to think we had an animal that colorful, and skilled, across so broad an area.
My wife's uncle was a boy near the MX, NM, AZ borders around 1910 and he talked about tagging along with government hunters who killed lots of mountain lions, and the few remaining jauguars.
So how long is it going to be before the USFWS wants to introduce more Jags in the US?
I met some guys down in Az 30 years ago that took hounds down to Mexico and central America and hunted Jag. They found that Sasha and hunted with him....some crazy stories from those guys.
The spear stories are true. When they finally bayed a Jag it seems he would charge them EVERYTIME unlike a mtn lion and much like a cornered boar hog.
The one story they were jag hunting with a black doc from the US...and they bumped some poisonous snakes[ fer d lance? I think] I guess these would pop up and strike...but when they popped up it was never accurate...just bouncing around every which way. Well the doc was fascinated and didn't realize they travel in mated pairs getting bit by the mate. They got him to the hospital for the antivenom....and he felt better so he released himself.....they found him dead the next day at his hotel.
Rocky D's Link
Not to sidetrack the thread, but per Beendare's comment about the Fer de lance ("lance of iron"), I attached the following link....check out the 11 year old's leg!!
There are several additional You tube videos showing jaguars stalking caimans and very large fish. They are an amazing predator.....
Rocky D's Link
Here is some info and the first guy that I know that set out to photo a jaguar in the U. S.
Thanks Rocky D. The first guy to confirm them being in the US is a hunter.
watch out for 5,000,000 acres set aside with no hunting to allow them to repopulate
crazy tree huggers
In AZ historically they were found roughly south of the Grand Canyon. Mostly these have been roaming males but the female killed in 1963 in the White Mts suggests they have bred here in the U.S. They are just not in their optimal habitat but rather in their marginal range where they have adapted locally. That explains their very low numbers. They will never be introduced since they are at the limit of their natural range already and would not thrive/increase even if given the chance. It's like introducing polar bears to latitudes south of their natural polar range. I'm just lucky for having seen one in the wild here in the U.S and a black phase one at that!
Those jaquars are gonna have a hard time traversing Trumps wall
Stoney - Yeah, the CBD are a bunch of real whack jobs, but I still don't want to see that Rosemont mine. Its loss of habitat not only for the cats, but also us hunters. Ya think they're going to allow hunting around the edge of that mine if it goes in. The way I see it is that location is public hunting, and if that mine goes in, the pubic will loose access...
Sometimes the enemy of my enemy isn't my enemy (don't know about CDC being a friend ever). Having a kitty block a mine isn't a bad thing as long as it doesn't kick us out. So the real challenge is to make sure we can still hunt the area, including unspotted cats. Sounds like a jag is not an animal to mess with, but how likely are they to be a problem to us if you're not hounding them?
The mine area (3-4,000 acres if I recall) is pretty much surrounded by national forest lands where hunting will continue to be allowed by the public. However, the whole area will be abuzz 24 hrs/day with loud, heavy equipment, plus continuous truck traffic in and out, making the surrounding areas less likely to hold native wildlife in the numbers it once did. They are selling this as providing only around 400 jobs which are only going to exist for maybe 10 yrs or so, leaving a huge unusable scar on the mountain for the foreseeable future. The owner is a large Canadian firm, so the real money made will leave our country which torques me even more. It's crazy that our natural resources can be so easily acquired by foreigners using an antiquated mining claims law.
Thanks for the info Rich... Yeah, really sad what they are doing to "our", the taxpayers, natural resources... Teddy Roosevelt would be proud...8^(((
Some very interesting read on the jaguars of the southwest. Especially the Lee brothers releasing some jag kittens from Central America near the Chiricahuas way back. It is was possible the one female jag caught near Big Lake was one of these jags released by these lion/jaguar hunters.
I knew both Dale and Clell Lee and got to hunt a lot with Sammy Foster a protege of theirs, whom hunted jags several trips into Central America with them. Sewell Goodwin, Marvin, Werner and Wendy Glenn, the Klumps and many more hunted lions in SE AZ and SW NM and had a few encounters with jags as well as ocelots. Warner & Wendy bayed up a big male jag in the Chiricahuas a few years ago and he published a picture book of it and the enviros wet all over themselves.
It is 3,000 acres to be exact. It's not just about the traffic and noise it's bout the ecological impact it will have. The Open Pit mine threatens our drinking water, Air quality, wildlife and the mountains. If you want to see what it will look like after they are done stripping it google the mine that is in Morenci AZ. The Rosemont mine is not worth the loss of the mountains or the ecological impact it will have on the Santa Ritas. 50% of the copper will be sent to Korea. And like said before it is a foreign owned mine so all profits will leave the us and all we will be left with is the damaged and wreckage. Their is also another foreign owned mine going in 40-60 miles east in the Dagroons mt range that is a German owned company but the fight on stopping that mine has been lost. We can only hope that we can stop the Rosemont copper mine.
I'm with you on the huge impact the mine will have on the landscape and resulting damages. You are sure right on what Morenci looks like with only one caveat, Rocky Mountain Bighorn sheep really like it and we presume they feel safer in the mine and the mountain lions don't like the noise. As for the jaguar I imagine they would avoid the area maybe offering a safe haven for Coues deer without big cat pressure on them.
My dad had a cousin that lived in the mountains above Santa Anita race track. We were there costing in the 50s and they had a picture of one on their property. Did any of you see the Jim Shockeb episode where he was going to dart one? Sucker killed 6 dogs.
the articles I read referred to them as endangered
if they are endangered, and there is a wild one or two or a breeding population suggested ... the whole SW will be set aside for them if the huggers have their way
Bingo Stealthy! THAT'S the worry I have also. Treehuggers will use the concern for disturbing jaguar as an excuse to outlaw hounds for lions. Although certainly SOME of the treehuggers truly do care for wildlife, I firmly believe the root of the movement is to get rid of hunting.
If they truly cared about all wildlife, why don't they ever lobby to expand bison throughout their historic range, for instance? Why do they not give a rats behind about brining desert bighorn back from endangered status?
Simple: because they don't want hunting. And the Jag is simply an excuse to landlock areas from hunters/humans.
Huntcell 's Link
I think it's a shame that there are not seasons in several countries that have strong population in the Americas. The international group that monitors these populations lists them as near threatened and with a larger total population than lions which still have a quota and cites tags.
SCIcurrently enters darted jaguars into the record book
SCI accepts Record Book entries for jaguars darted as part of this study, and uses body measurements taken by the field biologist to arrive at the score.
STATUS In parts of Mexico and Central America (and also in South America), jaguars are plentiful and detrimental to livestock, and may lawfully be hunted. Nonetheless, all jaguars everywhere are listed as endangered by the USF&WS (1972) and are on Appendix I of CITES (1975). They may not be imported into the United States, which is unfortunate for U.S. residents, as the jaguar has always been considered one of the top hunting trophies of the Americas
Xbows, high fences, leases, trail-cam scouting, night vision, drone scouting, and now darting record books... Wow, whats next...